[Release Date: October 26, 2021] In our ethics news and bits episodes we grab a few recent news items that we want to chat about, but not devote an entire episode to. This time around we look at China’s dramatic new restrictions on when kids can play games and controversies around the content warnings of two dating games.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: Hello everybody welcome back to the show
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Shlomo Sher: Everyone, this is our second episode of ethics news and bits it took God, I think, like three months or so, since our last episode of ethics news and bits.
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A Ashcraft: So obviously it seems about right, you know seems about right early.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah you know we’re we’re not under you know, cutting cusp of the news here right, but every once in a while we gather enough material to.
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Shlomo Sher: bring you smaller episodes that we really think or let’s say an episode that brings up a smaller topics that we really think come from the news that are really worth.
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Shlomo Sher: Talking about today we’re going to talk about three things and I think they’re all super interesting one is we’re going to talk for a bit about china’s new draconian unprecedented I you know.
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Shlomo Sher: restriction for online gaming for for kids with touches obviously on both kids and an excessive addiction and excessive play we’re going to talk about.
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Shlomo Sher: Two games, the donkey donkey literature club and boyfriend dungeon, both of which recently have had issues over content warnings and we’re going to talk about what content warnings are about and.
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Shlomo Sher: What are the sort of issues we need to think about what when it comes to content warnings and then we’ll get to.
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Shlomo Sher: cancel culture in gaming and we’re going to focus on specifically two cases, one has to do with a trip wire.
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Shlomo Sher: And trip wire, who had a game called tournament fishing.
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Shlomo Sher: And the other one is by I believe tg games.
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A Ashcraft: The the the tg game is the tournament fishing game.
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Shlomo Sher: Oh that’s the tournament sorry the tournament fishing game and then trip wire.
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Shlomo Sher: in charge.
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A Ashcraft: just had a CEO who who spoke out.
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A Ashcraft: On on on Twitter.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so the Co writes the CEO the I canceled not that company.
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Shlomo Sher: Well sort of the cup well what we’ll talk about we’ll talk about it well.
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A Ashcraft: we’ll get everybody up to speed and we’ll talk about the issues and and the meaning behind all of it.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, alright so let’s get to it, China so here’s what happens I think it’s a couple weeks ago now, or a couple of weeks ago from time we’re recording.
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Shlomo Sher: China essentially had already a the most seriously restrictive policy in the world right so at the time, I believe it was the kids could play a maximum of one and a half hours per day, and when I say kids have been minors.
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A Ashcraft: Under 18 writer right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so yeah we’re talking 1716 year olds to write maximum of one and a half hour per day and nothing between 10pm and 7am right, so they had this kind of a you know shut down policy written.
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A Ashcraft: But, and we should probably know that they can enforce this I mean people, people in here in the US, we go like how in the world could they possibly enforce it.
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A Ashcraft: They enforce it, because every.
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A Ashcraft: person has an identity card sort of an online identity that the government tracks.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so in order to in China and South Korea, both of whom have laws like this to login you need you, essentially, like a national ID that you log in with.
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Shlomo Sher: Until this point, essentially, though, even though there has been this law many kids.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe most kids you know are either using your their parents idea of grandparents idea, so it was very common to go around this, however.
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Shlomo Sher: The new law not only restricts so now kids can only play video games Friday Saturday and Sunday night from eight to 9pm which I gotta say it my house that’s kind of family time.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Of all the time to pick you know but that’s the only kind of time and holidays, I think, also with an in those hours right.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s a essentially a part of the the fight that China sees sees itself having a to protect kids for video game addiction what President she called spiritual opium.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know, China, obviously, if you know anything about China Chinese history, they particularly are worried about drugs, and you know opium was a really, really big issue.
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A Ashcraft: It was a it was weaponized against them for 100 years.
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Shlomo Sher: right by the.
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A Ashcraft: West so right.
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Shlomo Sher: So in in episode 14 we we essentially talked about China and South Korea already so.
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Shlomo Sher: that one is the episode 14 is excessive gaming of personal, social problem and we talked about how countries like China, South Korea, really kind of view this, the situation of excessive gaming differently than most other countries.
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Shlomo Sher: They see themselves as having a Social Responsibility to Protect kids.
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Shlomo Sher: And they’re really thinking about how this is going to impact society.
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Shlomo Sher: Still.
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Shlomo Sher: At the same time that this happened also very recently.
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Shlomo Sher: South Korea abolished its shut down last so South Korea also had a law that band kids from 16 from playing from midnight to 6am.
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Shlomo Sher: So the whole idea to make sure the kids got some sleep.
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Shlomo Sher: Right at least six hours and.
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Shlomo Sher: As as someone when I was a teenager I would wake up in the middle of the night to play.
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Shlomo Sher: and go to school, tired.
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Shlomo Sher: Right I you know I I get that right.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so at the same time that this happened, they also essentially even before that allowed parents to opt out right, so the idea was this is going to protect people, but if you’re if you’re a parent right, you should have the option to opt out and parents actually had to fight for this.
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A Ashcraft: So they could opt out from the restriction and allow their kids to play whenever they wanted.
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A Ashcraft: Right okay.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so that’s that’s the idea because part of this, and you know part of this issue is does this policy violate the rights of parents right to raise their kids the way they want to raise their kids.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: right because there’s not a right.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, it is, to a degree, right.
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A Ashcraft: I think people certainly would believe it here in the US.
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A Ashcraft: But imagine a culture where.
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A Ashcraft: that’s not necessarily believe to be a right.
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Shlomo Sher: um yeah it’s a good question right, I mean you.
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Shlomo Sher: In traditional societies right give kids were your property, you can do whatever you want with the kids right you tell your kids right uh you know we have a you know, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights has some children’s rights in there.
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Shlomo Sher: Right um, but we still kind of try to balance right, the rights of parents to decide what to how to raise their kids what to teach their kids.
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Shlomo Sher: You know what the feed their kids with our concerns about the general welfare of the kids right, so we can try to create the situation where.
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Shlomo Sher: We look for the things that are beyond the pale that we just you know child services is going to come take your kid away if you’re not providing a kind of basic healthy environment right.
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A Ashcraft: But then we can leverage.
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Shlomo Sher: Energy education right, and then we kind of leave things up to you and to some degree or another, I think this is the case in in most countries.
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Shlomo Sher: But certainly there are questions about at what point is the government too intrusive in terms of you know, in this case.
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Shlomo Sher: You know the government telling you that you how much screen time your kids could have or how much game time your screen your kids could have.
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A Ashcraft: So, so there they can no longer opt out, or they still parents can still opt out of this.
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Shlomo Sher: So in South Korea parents can.
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A Ashcraft: Okay got it.
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Shlomo Sher: So.
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A Ashcraft: But in China, not so much.
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Shlomo Sher: But in China, not so much right so and that part of it is really interesting right.
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Shlomo Sher: there’s also kind of a and i’m kind of curious what you think about that Andy you know, in terms of you know which you consider this a violation of parental rights to the side.
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Shlomo Sher: How their kids spend their time or do you think this is something worth protecting enough for government to do.
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A Ashcraft: So so i’m probably an outlier on this, on one hand, I don’t have children.
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A Ashcraft: And on the other hand.
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A Ashcraft: I know people who should not be parents.
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A Ashcraft: Right right and and so on one there’s.
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A Ashcraft: i’m all for freedom and and and freedoms, but I do think that there is a very good argument to say we should.
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A Ashcraft: We should, the government should be doing more to help parents parent their children in a way that is useful and good for society.
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A Ashcraft: So.
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A Ashcraft: helping them do it versus enforcing rules and restrictions that sort of the Gray area in between right.
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A Ashcraft: Right, but we don’t we here in the West, we hardly do anything right we we insist that they go to school, once there when Sarah have an age to go to school.
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A Ashcraft: But we don’t even really that’s not really even a hard hard restrictions either right because we allow people to opt out and homeschool their kids.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, though, though we you know we keep tabs on that right as much as you know, as much as.
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A Ashcraft: We don’t have any like we don’t when when somebody becomes pregnant we don’t send them to parenting classes.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and there are no which, which is, by the way, a really interesting right in terms of I wasn’t really thinking about pregnancy, exactly, but I was thinking about other things like obesity right like.
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Shlomo Sher: We don’t we don’t like you know go into you know we don’t tell parents you got to feed your kids.
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Shlomo Sher: In this kind of healthy way right.
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Shlomo Sher: Even though you know obesity childhood obesity is a very real thing it’s a very.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s a very important thing it’s a far bigger problem at least the heat here, to my mind, then you know video game addiction, which is.
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Shlomo Sher: Also, a problem yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Which is a real problem, but a much kind of smaller problem.
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A Ashcraft: yeah i’m unconvinced about the real problem, a video game addiction.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, and and okay and i’m i’m definitely convinced that some people, you know excessively play to a point where it definitely counts as addictive behavior.
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A Ashcraft: yeah oh no, I agree with that, but I.
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A Ashcraft: I don’t know that the video games themselves or the addictive thing.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, and and we talked about that, when we talked about addiction right about whether.
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Shlomo Sher: The video games are kind of just the outlet for whatever else might be underlying that might be that might be going on.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and and notice this is going to be part of the question about whether china’s policy is a socially responsible policy.
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Shlomo Sher: right because.
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Shlomo Sher: If if the whole thing if the whole idea is that you’re going to take a more active role in you know in children’s lives in to make sure that the lives of better, is this really doing that, right now, I want to point there’s the South Korean cultural minister.
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Shlomo Sher: As the shutdown law in South Korea dad essentially stopped essentially said for us games are an important leisure activity and communication channel.
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Shlomo Sher: I hope that preventative measures can respect the rights of the US and in courage healthy home education now to me that’s just really interesting right this idea that.
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Shlomo Sher: leisure activity and communication is part of the rights of kids.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I love that I love that.
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Shlomo Sher: Well yeah to me it’s it’s interesting I you know, like do kids have a right to play video games.
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A Ashcraft: Right or does it do they just have a right to leisure activity in whatever form they choose.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure right, I mean they’re you know they have a right, well, I mean you know again i’m not sure what to say about the parent that insists that their children, you know study all day or do chores after.
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Shlomo Sher: spring, you know I don’t go or go.
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A Ashcraft: Go to go to work.
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Shlomo Sher: Right oh get a job I don’t know if the government should have any say in any of that it’s nice when kids have time to leisure and the idea of kids being able to communicate with each other.
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A Ashcraft: yeah that’s very interesting to the right of commit right.
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A Ashcraft: For kids to be able to communicate with each other with any other kids that they want to parents who have can parents restrict.
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Shlomo Sher: Right or kids.
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A Ashcraft: Or, or at least you know a good idea.
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Shlomo Sher: The idea of a parent restricting communication period.
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Shlomo Sher: seems to me to be the kind of thing that’s done scrubs.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, we need socialization right.
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A Ashcraft: Right, but at the same time, you know if you’re a kid if you see your kids starting to fall in with the wrong crowd.
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A Ashcraft: Right, you will take measures to try to restrict your kids.
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A Ashcraft: Sure, be you know ability to communicate and ability to hang out with those with with the wrong crowd right and you should.
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A Ashcraft: Nobody knows better than you.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so if there is a right to communicate right it’s kind of a general right it’s not like specific to every single person, you want to communicate with right it’s a yeah it’s yeah I could I could immediately.
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A Ashcraft: The social socialization is basically what they’re.
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A Ashcraft: What they’re talking about.
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A Ashcraft: kids like socialization.
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Shlomo Sher: and obviously they get a lot of the socialization for video games, but they don’t have to, and you know to me there’s kids don’t have a right to video games right that’s just you know to me that’s beyond but the pale.
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Shlomo Sher: But Okay, so is this a more socially responsible policy for them to do this so part of the question is, I think, starting with your concern about the idea of addiction is this really the best way to deal with the problem of addiction right so notice number one it’s assuming that availability.
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Shlomo Sher: hmm access right is what creates the addiction.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s possible, as you say that there’s.
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A Ashcraft: Not necessarily creates a but certainly enables it right.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, enables it.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah right so.
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A Ashcraft: Right having having access to to the thing and it’s always at your fingertips, because literally it’s at my fingertips i’ve got my phone in my hand all the time.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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Right so.
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A Ashcraft: You know I can’t unless it was unless somebody saying don’t don’t touch that all the time, I could just touch it all the time right, I could just this is the thing I could do all the time, I could just keep.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and if that thing keeps having incentives for you to touch it right now we’re talking about potentially excessive use.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right um and you know I mean right, and then the same way, where you can’t become a heroin addict if there’s no heroin available, you know, for you to to do it.
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A Ashcraft: Right right exactly.
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Shlomo Sher: Regardless of the reasons that might drive you to become an addict right, so you know I mean it’s not that you know you might not be targeting the let’s say the core reasons of why someone might engage might end up engaging in addictive behavior.
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Shlomo Sher: But maybe you are, you know slowing it down or or stopping in some way.
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A Ashcraft: Right and I was also good there’s some good science behind brain development and kids brain development it, you know there.
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A Ashcraft: Because brain development continues until they’re 25 right, and so you know there’s a lot of lot of evidence to suggest that the things that you do as a kid really do affect you for a very long time, so if you could, if we can stop.
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A Ashcraft: You know, an addictive behavior from happening.
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A Ashcraft: at that age, then maybe we could stop it forever.
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Shlomo Sher: right because addictive behavior can transfer to other forms of addictive behavior.
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A Ashcraft: Right often us.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right so right you quit drinking and start smoking right at the same time right.
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Shlomo Sher: But the other, the other issue kind of with this is.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s kind of all they’re doing right, so we talked about how South Korea deals with this right they’ve got this huge apparatus of education of counselors of everybody being kind of alert for signs of excessive gaming.
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Shlomo Sher: Where they’re looking to kind of help right right um and to me this is it’s a more expensive way of doing it than just saying you can’t do it.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s obviously much more new ones I have no idea how much more expensive, it is.
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A Ashcraft: And it’s less it’s less authoritarian for sure.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s certainly less authoritarian.
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A Ashcraft: And, and you know that they’re.
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A Ashcraft: South korea’s.
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A Ashcraft: Laws may not even allow them to be as restrictive as China.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah that’s interesting I really don’t know again right part of is going to be what’s the right of the parents or or do kids have these kind of right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah um and.
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A Ashcraft: That is really super interesting right.
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Shlomo Sher: And then you kind of think of So when I originally heard that China was doing this, I was thinking wow What an interesting social experiment like you know the rest of the world is going to grow up on video games.
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Shlomo Sher: Right kids everywhere are going to spend like you know half their leisure time more playing video games everybody else is going to grow in video games Chinese.
370
00:31:33.480 –> 00:31:40.500
Shlomo Sher: kids are going to grow up with very little video games which mean they’ll have to and then was kind of this wild card.
371
00:31:41.130 –> 00:31:55.830
Shlomo Sher: means what’s going to happen, and the more I thought my and my immediate thing jumped to all the things that I love doing when you know, I was young, and you know I and there wasn’t as many video games and the video games one is good.
372
00:31:56.100 –> 00:32:01.500
A Ashcraft: they’re going to have basically childhoods like ours, where video games were were.
373
00:32:03.300 –> 00:32:06.660
A Ashcraft: Not they were not ubiquitous they were special occasions.
374
00:32:06.990 –> 00:32:07.410
A Ashcraft: Right.
375
00:32:07.440 –> 00:32:12.900
A Ashcraft: They were you know hey let’s go to let’s go have a straw hat pizza and stripe pizza had had an arcade.
376
00:32:13.350 –> 00:32:16.140
Shlomo Sher: Sure right, especially at the going to the arcade part.
377
00:32:16.230 –> 00:32:24.210
Shlomo Sher: yeah even even though you know even with home consoles right it’s still it didn’t feel when I was a kid you know.
378
00:32:25.980 –> 00:32:26.190
A Ashcraft: huh.
379
00:32:26.340 –> 00:32:41.700
Shlomo Sher: As an I mean, especially because he didn’t have the online games, but then I thought of the damn set so part of me is like oh my God they’re going to be reading and exploring and and then I thought wait a minute what what the hell, am I thinking, first of all.
380
00:32:42.930 –> 00:32:58.770
Shlomo Sher: You know my son has been watching YouTube he see he hasn’t had a game that he’s been interested in a little bit so instead he’s been Harry Potter fanatic, and he just watches YouTube videos stupid videos of Harry Potter.
381
00:32:59.130 –> 00:33:01.890
Shlomo Sher: And Recently I was like I gotta get them into a game.
382
00:33:03.390 –> 00:33:06.300
A Ashcraft: You guys are a step up from just watching things passively right.
383
00:33:06.390 –> 00:33:18.990
Shlomo Sher: hell yeah because there’s so many good smart games he’s playing craft topia now and the xbox which, which is great and it’s so much better it’s so much better for him, then you know.
384
00:33:19.680 –> 00:33:30.060
Shlomo Sher: You know, then then playing then watching these passive videos so part of me is like okay people just going to watch more TV right so that’s run the other part, is.
385
00:33:31.590 –> 00:33:35.640
Shlomo Sher: You know the only games that are getting restricted are the online games.
386
00:33:36.060 –> 00:33:39.720
A Ashcraft: Right right, so they can play they can play single player games all day.
387
00:33:40.140 –> 00:33:41.790
Shlomo Sher: All day and.
388
00:33:42.300 –> 00:33:45.300
A Ashcraft: The online games what we did as a kid as kids.
389
00:33:45.540 –> 00:33:54.660
Shlomo Sher: Right, which you could do as kids or you could have friends over and play together, though that’s harder in places where people you know in Asia people game outside of the home and it’s.
390
00:33:55.170 –> 00:34:00.810
Shlomo Sher: But who knows, maybe, maybe you could do that have someone come game with you at home, though there’s not that many consoles.
391
00:34:01.290 –> 00:34:08.190
Shlomo Sher: In China right because because they don’t really use it, but you know the reason for it is because the online games.
392
00:34:09.300 –> 00:34:16.710
Shlomo Sher: have more of the mechanics that leads to addiction right and that makes sense, but if I was a Chinese.
393
00:34:18.120 –> 00:34:24.210
Shlomo Sher: game designer I might start putting those mechanics in solo gains, but as much as I could now right.
394
00:34:24.570 –> 00:34:24.840
Shlomo Sher: Right.
395
00:34:25.290 –> 00:34:27.960
A Ashcraft: No reason that those mechanics can’t go in solo games.
396
00:34:28.470 –> 00:34:41.100
Shlomo Sher: Right and and and the biggest difference between online games and solar games, is it now like games you’re playing with other people so games you’re now alone, and you get no socialization.
397
00:34:41.460 –> 00:34:52.230
A Ashcraft: Right right, and so, and so you don’t have somebody going whoa way, how did you get that or, on the other hand, somebody going wow that’s super cool how did you get that.
398
00:34:52.830 –> 00:34:59.460
A Ashcraft: To reinforce reinforce whatever whatever you know crazy thing that you’ve done because you’ve been playing for 24 hours straight.
399
00:35:00.150 –> 00:35:01.680
A Ashcraft: that’s right.
400
00:35:02.310 –> 00:35:13.890
Shlomo Sher: But you’re and you’re also you’re not coordinating with your friends right you’re not going on missions you don’t play with your friends you’re playing alone, and that is said Okay, and I almost entirely play alone.
401
00:35:14.280 –> 00:35:21.180
Shlomo Sher: But you know but that’s kind of a personal choice and that’s because my life is too busy, and I I don’t want to coordinate with other people.
402
00:35:21.540 –> 00:35:25.140
Shlomo Sher: right for right, for you know, for the most part, but.
403
00:35:25.410 –> 00:35:30.330
A Ashcraft: My wife do the parallel play where we sit we sit together in a room and play the same game.
404
00:35:31.890 –> 00:35:32.670
A Ashcraft: But on our own.
405
00:35:34.110 –> 00:35:34.950
Shlomo Sher: I see okay.
406
00:35:35.010 –> 00:35:37.110
Shlomo Sher: yeah right yeah I guess right.
407
00:35:37.950 –> 00:35:45.360
Shlomo Sher: But you know this idea of going back to that and taking out the socialization again I worried that’s going to be very harmful.
408
00:35:45.750 –> 00:35:58.980
Shlomo Sher: yeah and then I think of the last, so I got one more one more concern here, you know it’s easy to think of all the good stuff that we did when we were kids when games words are so pervasive but it’s easy to forget all the bad stuff.
409
00:35:59.400 –> 00:36:04.110
Shlomo Sher: You know yeah right, I mean there’s nothing to do, especially if you’re a small.
410
00:36:04.380 –> 00:36:07.470
A Ashcraft: Business owner would would go out in the woods and hit each other with sticks.
411
00:36:09.090 –> 00:36:10.260
A Ashcraft: I mean it.
412
00:36:10.350 –> 00:36:11.850
A Ashcraft: Literally literally.
413
00:36:13.260 –> 00:36:19.020
A Ashcraft: We painted them we we painted them bright colors and we pretended they were lightsabers we basically went out in the woods and hit each other with sticks.
414
00:36:19.200 –> 00:36:21.300
Shlomo Sher: awesome that doesn’t sound that bad.
415
00:36:23.490 –> 00:36:25.410
Shlomo Sher: Right these days they won’t do it right, but.
416
00:36:25.620 –> 00:36:27.900
Shlomo Sher: You know right notice right uh you know.
417
00:36:29.130 –> 00:36:33.690
Shlomo Sher: Young people have a lot less sex now than they used to, because there’s just so much more to do.
418
00:36:34.530 –> 00:36:36.900
Shlomo Sher: Right people have sex, because that.
419
00:36:36.930 –> 00:36:46.800
Shlomo Sher: That there wasn’t a lot of options of what to do right, so you know drinking etc right in some ways it kind of reminded me oh yeah video games can be an actual.
420
00:36:47.100 –> 00:36:58.140
Shlomo Sher: Even if you’re playing not games that are beneficial in any way, and you know in our last episode or the episode, we have out now rise would catch fire about how games can make you better.
421
00:36:58.500 –> 00:36:59.400
Shlomo Sher: Even if we’re not.
422
00:36:59.460 –> 00:37:00.990
Shlomo Sher: That elevated right.
423
00:37:01.200 –> 00:37:01.620
A Ashcraft: that’s right.
424
00:37:02.010 –> 00:37:05.190
Shlomo Sher: At least they can make you better than like drinking in the parking lot.
425
00:37:06.090 –> 00:37:19.170
A Ashcraft: Right yeah yeah for sure so interestingly, when I heard about this, I thought oh that’s that’s an interesting way for China to restrict the cultural influence of the West.
426
00:37:20.880 –> 00:37:25.560
A Ashcraft: But then, you pointed out that a lot of the Games they’re making they’re playing or are Chinese games.
427
00:37:25.800 –> 00:37:27.600
A Ashcraft: And so he’s already.
428
00:37:27.960 –> 00:37:40.890
A Ashcraft: yeah it’s probably not even that like, but I do know that the industry has spent a lot of time and effort cultivating an audience in China because China has this huge potential audience right, and so they the.
429
00:37:42.570 –> 00:37:46.290
A Ashcraft: Western media companies look at it as a as a huge growth market.
430
00:37:47.640 –> 00:37:49.470
Shlomo Sher: A which.
431
00:37:49.500 –> 00:37:50.100
A Ashcraft: But now not.
432
00:37:50.940 –> 00:38:00.300
Shlomo Sher: Right now that’s gone so Okay, so this is, I guess the last part right because game companies, this really seems to screw over game companies in a big way.
433
00:38:01.860 –> 00:38:08.100
Shlomo Sher: Especially non Chinese game companies which is interesting because notice if you’re talking about keeping up Western culture.
434
00:38:08.640 –> 00:38:26.550
Shlomo Sher: Maybe this could be a protectionist move to some degree, or the Chinese game industry because a Chinese game companies are essentially they’re the ones held responsible so remember how I said about how Chinese players get their parents or grandparents ids right right.
435
00:38:28.320 –> 00:38:34.050
Shlomo Sher: that’s not going to be possible anymore, because essentially companies like 10 cents are.
436
00:38:35.310 –> 00:38:46.350
Shlomo Sher: Essentially, going to use stronger verification like facial recognition software right to make sure that they do that if a company like like electronic arts does that.
437
00:38:47.700 –> 00:38:54.180
Shlomo Sher: The backlash in the West is going to be way too big, I can’t see them going into China and doing something like that.
438
00:38:54.750 –> 00:38:58.410
A Ashcraft: But maybe i’m wrong you’re using facial recognition software to verify user.
439
00:38:58.800 –> 00:39:05.130
Shlomo Sher: to verify user to verify user information to restrict kids I mean what do you think they.
440
00:39:05.400 –> 00:39:06.120
A Ashcraft: I have.
441
00:39:06.210 –> 00:39:06.720
Shlomo Sher: They do that.
442
00:39:06.750 –> 00:39:11.700
A Ashcraft: I have heard of you i’ve heard of Western companies thinking about doing doing this just to just to.
443
00:39:12.810 –> 00:39:15.630
A Ashcraft: Just to make sure you know just to confirm identities.
444
00:39:16.980 –> 00:39:18.660
Shlomo Sher: Just Oh, just to confirm identities.
445
00:39:18.660 –> 00:39:19.500
A Ashcraft: To prevent cheating.
446
00:39:19.530 –> 00:39:20.310
A Ashcraft: To prevent cheating.
447
00:39:21.990 –> 00:39:26.700
Shlomo Sher: Interesting in outside of tournaments just in regular games.
448
00:39:26.760 –> 00:39:39.300
A Ashcraft: yeah well, I mean regular games or and tournaments are are quickly going to merge together in some ways, so yeah anytime that there’s their stakes when you’re playing an online game with with other players.
449
00:39:39.570 –> 00:39:42.240
A Ashcraft: Okay, and you’re trying to make sure that it’s you playing the game.
450
00:39:42.750 –> 00:39:48.930
Shlomo Sher: I see, so you so I can have let’s say a good player play for me and get me to a higher level, so I could compete.
451
00:39:49.380 –> 00:39:50.370
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
452
00:39:51.420 –> 00:39:57.180
Shlomo Sher: Okay interesting because yeah I remember maddie was talking to us about that in another episode of esports.
453
00:39:57.330 –> 00:40:02.970
A Ashcraft: yeah so it’ll It may happen here in the West it’ll be interesting to see if it does.
454
00:40:03.300 –> 00:40:08.850
Shlomo Sher: yeah it’s it’s going to have to pass a lot of social herders hurdles here first for for acceptance.
455
00:40:09.150 –> 00:40:10.350
Shlomo Sher: Right okay.
456
00:40:10.620 –> 00:40:12.570
A Ashcraft: I mean Games will be the way to do it.
457
00:40:13.890 –> 00:40:17.460
Shlomo Sher: right if it starts in anything it’ll start there.
458
00:40:18.000 –> 00:40:19.950
Shlomo Sher: and, obviously, your phone is the obvious.
459
00:40:19.950 –> 00:40:21.090
Shlomo Sher: place to do it.
460
00:40:21.540 –> 00:40:24.720
Shlomo Sher: And this is where we’ve already started doing that right your phone.
461
00:40:24.750 –> 00:40:31.860
A Ashcraft: Sure, my my my iPhone will look at my face as i’m putting in my my code or you know.
462
00:40:31.890 –> 00:40:36.420
Shlomo Sher: Right right so and you can i’m assuming you could do that for you know.
463
00:40:37.560 –> 00:40:39.720
Shlomo Sher: You know, for micro transactions.
464
00:40:40.200 –> 00:40:42.750
Shlomo Sher: You could authorize them with your facial recognition software.
465
00:40:43.080 –> 00:40:52.170
Shlomo Sher: Right so uh yeah the The interesting thing is doing for PC game right yeah when when when it goes there okay so that’s China.
466
00:40:52.590 –> 00:40:55.080
A Ashcraft: Alright, moving moving on to the Topic number two.
467
00:40:55.440 –> 00:40:58.560
Shlomo Sher: topic that really quick i’m just kind of curious how long was that.
468
00:40:59.610 –> 00:41:02.430
Shlomo Sher: You know any idea if not doesn’t matter.
469
00:41:04.170 –> 00:41:06.150
A Ashcraft: I haven’t been checking it, but let me see.
470
00:41:07.470 –> 00:41:09.090
A Ashcraft: Probably 12 minutes.
471
00:41:09.540 –> 00:41:10.500
Shlomo Sher: that’s it oh.
472
00:41:10.560 –> 00:41:11.190
Shlomo Sher: yeah okay.
473
00:41:11.250 –> 00:41:11.970
A Ashcraft: Maybe 15.
474
00:41:12.570 –> 00:41:15.180
Shlomo Sher: Okay, I was thinking more like 15 okay.
475
00:41:15.810 –> 00:41:16.140
Shlomo Sher: uh.
476
00:41:16.200 –> 00:41:25.440
A Ashcraft: we’ve been talking for 40 minutes, since I since I started this, but I think that we didn’t really start the conversation.
477
00:41:25.470 –> 00:41:27.120
A Ashcraft: Right probably 20 of that.
478
00:41:27.690 –> 00:41:35.220
Shlomo Sher: Okay Okay, in this case, in this case, I think we don’t need to worry too much, because we can always cut the episode two.
479
00:41:35.760 –> 00:41:37.740
A Ashcraft: Right, we can there’ll be wasted trim it down.
480
00:41:38.160 –> 00:41:38.670
Shlomo Sher: Right so.
481
00:41:38.700 –> 00:41:40.140
A Ashcraft: Okay, like this portion right now.
482
00:41:41.160 –> 00:41:41.550
Shlomo Sher: sure.
483
00:41:44.250 –> 00:41:55.260
Shlomo Sher: uh OK, so now our and, in fact, after we do this one i’m going to go may i’m going to go check with the lawn and make sure he actually goes to bed.
484
00:41:55.620 –> 00:42:03.870
Shlomo Sher: Okay, because i’m letting them just play right now, and instead of go to bed a little later, but I don’t want them to keep pushing it.
485
00:42:04.230 –> 00:42:19.320
Shlomo Sher: Okay okay all right now for our second topic so essentially there’s been two controversies here, one has to do with this game called boyfriend dungeon and boyfriend dungeon Is this really I think it’s a really interesting game.
486
00:42:20.400 –> 00:42:38.010
Shlomo Sher: So I it was released in mid August so right now we’re kind of like mid late September so about a month ago, and it was originally kickstarted back in 2018 as this kind of inclusive queer romance game and that part I think really matters like I played a.
487
00:42:39.840 –> 00:42:48.990
Shlomo Sher: Gender non binary you know person with a day pronoun right, so the idea that it was inclusive that would let players engage in all different types of relationships.
488
00:42:50.880 –> 00:42:55.260
Shlomo Sher: it’s trailers, essentially, you know, like show it to be like this dungeon crawler.
489
00:42:55.620 –> 00:43:10.320
Shlomo Sher: So it’s a combination of this dungeon crawler where you go through different levels in this dungeon and you know you do what you’re doing doesn’t cause you kill kill monsters and get treasures and but at the same time you do it with a weapons that are also romantic partners.
490
00:43:10.560 –> 00:43:13.530
Shlomo Sher: Right so you’re dating like your floor.
491
00:43:13.740 –> 00:43:17.730
A Ashcraft: it’s one of these ideas that I really wish i’d had it’s so out there it’s so.
492
00:43:17.790 –> 00:43:22.020
A Ashcraft: completely off the wall, but I mean it’s amazing.
493
00:43:22.290 –> 00:43:29.220
Shlomo Sher: I thought it was a very cute very cute premise, but it did it worked out pretty well.
494
00:43:30.360 –> 00:43:44.550
Shlomo Sher: And you know so that was the idea right and to me that’s exactly how it seemed it seemed like a light combination of these things i’ve never played a game where you date people you know in depth part was that part was was was fun.
495
00:43:46.050 –> 00:43:55.410
Shlomo Sher: But the dating part of the story, so the budget part is simple right right the dating part of the story gets into issues around personal boundaries.
496
00:43:55.980 –> 00:44:04.020
Shlomo Sher: And that sort of has this antagonist Eric that makes these unwanted advances towards your character, I think you go on like one date with them and.
497
00:44:04.320 –> 00:44:15.360
Shlomo Sher: It doesn’t really work out and it turns out that they’re kind of prejudice against people who turn into swords which you’re is they’re racist in the game right.
498
00:44:16.770 –> 00:44:25.440
Shlomo Sher: And they end up stalking your character to some degree, and they try to emotionally manipulate you right now i’m again.
499
00:44:26.790 –> 00:44:27.930
Shlomo Sher: Personally, for me.
500
00:44:29.490 –> 00:44:45.900
Shlomo Sher: I to me all that stuff was fairly light, but here’s here’s essentially what they did so for this reason the game edit a content warning and I think the content warning is really interesting right because we have this is our be a ratings for games.
501
00:44:46.080 –> 00:44:56.160
Shlomo Sher: yeah and the East rbs can also have their own kind of additional information that they give you like that the game has like if a game has raping it.
502
00:44:56.550 –> 00:45:08.700
Shlomo Sher: Right and i’m a rape victim, I want to know that yeah right, and I can send you know, hopefully it’ll say sexual assault is in the asr be label right right might be a part of it right.
503
00:45:09.180 –> 00:45:22.890
Shlomo Sher: Right, but then you have things that are are not part of the is rb labels and there’s always kind of questions with the srp which, if anybody doesn’t know is the rating system for video games.
504
00:45:23.490 –> 00:45:32.640
Shlomo Sher: it’s, just like the film rating system it’s a it’s a voluntary system run by the industry where they essentially give these ratings and.
505
00:45:33.270 –> 00:45:35.970
A Ashcraft: person it’s an independent body, you have to.
506
00:45:36.270 –> 00:45:40.020
A Ashcraft: You you have, or you don’t have to but but big publishers all do.
507
00:45:41.310 –> 00:45:49.350
A Ashcraft: Is is submit their games to it to get a rating an official rating label that they can put on there on the box.
508
00:45:49.950 –> 00:45:50.190
Shlomo Sher: Right.
509
00:45:50.220 –> 00:45:51.360
A Ashcraft: and run the ads.
510
00:45:51.990 –> 00:45:56.520
Shlomo Sher: And it’s very strange to see a game that doesn’t have any a survey rating at least a big game.
511
00:45:56.580 –> 00:46:02.220
A Ashcraft: that’s right that’s right all all the all the publishers do it it’s um it’s an industry wide.
512
00:46:02.670 –> 00:46:09.240
Shlomo Sher: Right now, you know there’s always questions about what the add in terms of industry in terms of asr be warnings.
513
00:46:10.290 –> 00:46:25.440
Shlomo Sher: You know, and the srp itself has like on its website, a lot more information about things that could potentially be on there, I remember, there was a movement to add like a label for sexist content.
514
00:46:25.800 –> 00:46:28.320
Shlomo Sher: Right whatever exactly that would be.
515
00:46:28.620 –> 00:46:45.270
A Ashcraft: Right right it’s also you know, should be noted that the esop is not without its own you know criticisms, you know that a lot of especially a developer on the developer side you don’t get a lot of information back from the sob when about the grade that they’ve given it.
516
00:46:45.720 –> 00:46:53.160
A Ashcraft: they’ve given you a game right and and they they’re there they don’t allow a lot of transparency to their process.
517
00:46:54.210 –> 00:47:07.710
A Ashcraft: Because because they don’t want anybody gaming it and I understand that, but it can be, but it, but you know anytime a process is non transparent you there are moments where you’re like wait, why did that, how did that happen.
518
00:47:08.070 –> 00:47:09.990
Shlomo Sher: Oh yeah that’s that’s super frustrating.
519
00:47:10.260 –> 00:47:12.540
Shlomo Sher: At the same time yeah I don’t want people gaming it.
520
00:47:12.930 –> 00:47:13.800
A Ashcraft: Right exactly.
521
00:47:13.830 –> 00:47:14.790
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah.
522
00:47:15.390 –> 00:47:23.970
Shlomo Sher: And it’s in its interest and it’s it’s too hard to evaluate who’s right here because we don’t know what the process is really like.
523
00:47:24.090 –> 00:47:25.260
Shlomo Sher: Right exactly.
524
00:47:26.430 –> 00:47:37.800
Shlomo Sher: So, but still, whatever the survey rating rating is at least there’s some games that seemed to go beyond it right, so in this case, they had this content warning and they they said.
525
00:47:38.100 –> 00:47:46.620
Shlomo Sher: This game may include references to unwanted advances right because it’s a dating game so they’re going to say what about unwanted advances stocking.
526
00:47:46.980 –> 00:48:00.270
Shlomo Sher: and other forms of emotional manipulation play with care okay so right they essentially went ahead and we’re aware that some people would have essentially this is their trigger warning that some people.
527
00:48:00.960 –> 00:48:08.790
Shlomo Sher: Who potentially have been stopped right there stuck in this game this my traumatize them if they’ve been emotionally manipulated, this might traumatize them.
528
00:48:09.000 –> 00:48:10.800
Shlomo Sher: They given this content morning right.
529
00:48:10.860 –> 00:48:13.080
A Ashcraft: And I love this, by the way, everything about this, I love.
530
00:48:13.590 –> 00:48:28.560
Shlomo Sher: Okay right right, so this is the progressive game right, but because the game was marketed was such a light tone because it’s unlike game right, so you know it’s not like a it’s still like a fun like date again it’s just inclusive right.
531
00:48:28.800 –> 00:48:36.180
Shlomo Sher: Right, but because it was market with a light tone, some people read that and thought that these topics might be like background details or avoidable some way.
532
00:48:36.570 –> 00:48:50.820
Shlomo Sher: right because it said this game may include references to unwanted advances stocking so essentially they were like well Maybe you can avoid this, because may maybe not right, maybe these are background details.
533
00:48:51.180 –> 00:49:05.760
Shlomo Sher: And they complained about this and strictly speaking there right right essentially it says may but really uh the stocking and the moat this character is like super central to the plot.
534
00:49:06.270 –> 00:49:08.460
A Ashcraft: Oh so there’s no way to play this game without.
535
00:49:08.640 –> 00:49:15.690
A Ashcraft: Without coming into contact with this character and this character is always going to stalk you he’s always going to be emotionally manipulative.
536
00:49:16.020 –> 00:49:27.930
Shlomo Sher: Right right and and he’s kind of the the you know the the tension in the game without him the game is very, very there’s the narrative is.
537
00:49:29.130 –> 00:49:30.180
Shlomo Sher: Not very interesting.
538
00:49:30.420 –> 00:49:34.170
Shlomo Sher: you’re just meeting some you’re meeting people you’re going on dates with them.
539
00:49:34.620 –> 00:49:36.060
A Ashcraft: And you’re going to the dungeon.
540
00:49:36.510 –> 00:49:38.850
A Ashcraft: Perhaps the May part of it is.
541
00:49:41.100 –> 00:49:48.300
A Ashcraft: You may maybe some people would not even recognize that as being stalked what he does is being emotionally manipulative.
542
00:49:48.870 –> 00:49:52.680
Shlomo Sher: um yeah it’s it’s interesting what emotionally manipulative means.
543
00:49:52.860 –> 00:49:53.490
Shlomo Sher: Right and.
544
00:49:53.670 –> 00:50:02.280
Shlomo Sher: And how serious that you know that is a you know it’s also the idea of.
545
00:50:03.630 –> 00:50:12.990
Shlomo Sher: You know what might be emotionally manipulative to a teenager might not be emotionally manipulative to an adult because we would just laugh at that kind of attempt.
546
00:50:13.200 –> 00:50:22.320
Shlomo Sher: mm hmm so to me it didn’t seem particularly emotionally manipulative in any kind of way that wasn’t incredibly obvious.
547
00:50:22.860 –> 00:50:23.220
A Ashcraft: Right.
548
00:50:23.460 –> 00:50:27.960
Shlomo Sher: You know, in other words, I couldn’t imagine the player being manipulated.
549
00:50:28.290 –> 00:50:34.650
A Ashcraft: Right right, I mean when we when we do violence, we can say you know this is cartoon cartoonish violence.
550
00:50:35.100 –> 00:50:39.300
A Ashcraft: Right right, but nobody has ever talked about cartoonishly manipulative.
551
00:50:39.780 –> 00:50:42.990
A Ashcraft: right because cartoonish emotional violence.
552
00:50:44.700 –> 00:50:49.170
Shlomo Sher: Right right, because obviously could partly because cartoonish is visual.
553
00:50:49.230 –> 00:50:50.130
A Ashcraft: Right right right.
554
00:50:50.220 –> 00:50:51.990
Shlomo Sher: But this idea of you know.
555
00:50:53.370 –> 00:51:10.710
Shlomo Sher: over the top and obvious emotional manipulation, I would, I would say again, but maybe not if you’re a teenager again I you know I mean maybe that’s just because I I read it, as someone who has you know, a long history of dating and you know can can see right through that.
556
00:51:11.760 –> 00:51:22.050
Shlomo Sher: So okay so here’s essentially what they did so victims of trauma involving stalking essentially they say that, like making things like stocking a central part of the game.
557
00:51:22.440 –> 00:51:36.270
Shlomo Sher: really makes it harder for them to engage with the game right, and especially since they bought it and this isn’t a free to play this is you pay 20 bucks for it right right, so they bought it without expecting that as part of the narrative right.
558
00:51:36.300 –> 00:51:49.650
Shlomo Sher: Okay, and part of the idea here is is that, because this was specifically like you know this queer romance game, and I think the team itself was you know, was a very inclusive team and.
559
00:51:49.890 –> 00:51:51.930
Shlomo Sher: And and had a clear members.
560
00:51:52.260 –> 00:52:10.800
Shlomo Sher: The audience itself also kind of knew that and among the queer community, you have a lot more issues of emotional manipulation of trauma with dating and and also things like you know, like stocking so your audience was more primed for that and prime is not really the right word.
561
00:52:11.040 –> 00:52:14.400
A Ashcraft: No, you haven’t you haven’t you have an audience that is more susceptible.
562
00:52:14.460 –> 00:52:15.870
Shlomo Sher: susceptible right.
563
00:52:16.170 –> 00:52:25.470
Shlomo Sher: yeah um and you know it’s so you know, is the answer to make sure, because notice One possibility is say here so essentially.
564
00:52:26.400 –> 00:52:42.270
Shlomo Sher: What the company did right the company that made it is essentially they ended up revising their content, listening to their to the players great and saying Okay, we didn’t realize this and revising their their content warning.
565
00:52:42.810 –> 00:52:43.140
A Ashcraft: Okay.
566
00:52:43.500 –> 00:52:45.540
Shlomo Sher: You know, however.
567
00:52:46.410 –> 00:52:48.420
A Ashcraft: Because again that seems like the right thing to do.
568
00:52:49.230 –> 00:52:59.670
Shlomo Sher: But right telling so they revise their content warning to the point where it’s very explicit that the game is going to involve stocking.
569
00:53:00.990 –> 00:53:20.820
Shlomo Sher: and other things, and it says, take a break, if you need to like take it’s really hand holding, but at the same time you’re ruining the game you’re ruining the story for those of us who were you know could have had this as a surprise turn in the narrative.
570
00:53:21.150 –> 00:53:21.630
A Ashcraft: Oh, I see.
571
00:53:22.050 –> 00:53:36.420
Shlomo Sher: Right and and this seems to be you know the the problem I talked to my game design students today, and they were saying well look, I mean you know if they got it on steam right steam has this to our money back guarantee.
572
00:53:37.050 –> 00:53:50.460
Shlomo Sher: They can buy it try it and if it seems that you know it has things that are obviously stocking and watch them and literally they can bring it back, but of course the stalking doesn’t start right away right.
573
00:53:51.210 –> 00:53:56.190
Shlomo Sher: And of course you can buy a game and not play it immediately, though I think Steve is a two hours of playtime.
574
00:53:57.030 –> 00:53:59.640
A Ashcraft: i’m not entirely sure how that works, but it’s something like.
575
00:53:59.640 –> 00:54:00.030
A Ashcraft: A yeah.
576
00:54:00.600 –> 00:54:08.670
Shlomo Sher: But right so and is it fair to rely on steams money back guarantee to kind of solve this problem, or does the company needs to solve this problem.
577
00:54:09.480 –> 00:54:26.640
Shlomo Sher: And then there was some players that specifically that said look, you need to remake this game, you need to consider that people could have trauma and you need the entire storyline having to do with this with starkey an optional part of the game.
578
00:54:28.050 –> 00:54:33.600
A Ashcraft: Which which would, which would bring the game in line with their original content morning.
579
00:54:34.950 –> 00:54:35.400
Shlomo Sher: i’m.
580
00:54:36.720 –> 00:54:38.730
Shlomo Sher: In that case, I will see you know it may and.
581
00:54:38.820 –> 00:54:39.960
A Ashcraft: may contain stalking.
582
00:54:40.410 –> 00:54:41.850
Shlomo Sher: Right, but may, if you want it.
583
00:54:43.230 –> 00:54:45.330
Shlomo Sher: Right right, that would be the idea it’s an option.
584
00:54:45.900 –> 00:54:48.150
A Ashcraft: yeah, but it would be.
585
00:54:49.350 –> 00:54:51.360
A Ashcraft: How would you give the player, the option.
586
00:54:52.650 –> 00:54:56.670
Shlomo Sher: Well it’s a i’m assuming you have it’s interesting right, I mean.
587
00:54:57.330 –> 00:55:00.480
Shlomo Sher: you’re you’re the game designer I mean you could think of a way to make that happen.
588
00:55:01.500 –> 00:55:03.720
A Ashcraft: We know, but now, without those differently.
589
00:55:03.810 –> 00:55:09.180
A Ashcraft: Without not with now without doing the thing that you’re already complaining about which is giving away the story.
590
00:55:10.890 –> 00:55:14.640
Shlomo Sher: Or you say for the variable yeah I mean, so this, this is the issue right.
591
00:55:14.730 –> 00:55:19.200
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean there’s you know there’s a slider of like how much emotional abuse can I will stand.
592
00:55:19.740 –> 00:55:27.450
A Ashcraft: And I set that at the beginning, and you know and it basically allows things to happen differently.
593
00:55:27.930 –> 00:55:38.460
Shlomo Sher: Again right, and so they want to know up front, and this, and this is part of the issue right they want to know up front there’s other players that don’t want to know upfront right um.
594
00:55:38.880 –> 00:55:41.640
A Ashcraft: Was there’s no way to there’s no way to.
595
00:55:41.760 –> 00:55:45.210
A Ashcraft: make those those two points of view come meet in the middle right.
596
00:55:45.570 –> 00:55:57.780
Shlomo Sher: Right so and you have responsibilities to both of those right, I mean you have responsibilities, I think, to your players who might be harmed by something like this, at least to some degree.
597
00:55:58.320 –> 00:56:05.790
Shlomo Sher: And, at least if it’s not very hard right to to make them aware of what’s going to what’s going to happen, and again I think.
598
00:56:05.850 –> 00:56:10.290
A Ashcraft: You when you when you sell anything you want to make sure that the audience knows what they’re buying.
599
00:56:11.370 –> 00:56:18.750
Shlomo Sher: Yes, but, and this is where I was going to talk about the donkey donkey literature club first, but you know.
600
00:56:20.010 –> 00:56:25.140
Shlomo Sher: That doesn’t you know dentally speaking, yes, but movies don’t do this at all.
601
00:56:25.950 –> 00:56:30.990
A Ashcraft: Some of us doing some movies down right and some movies tell you pretty much exactly what you’re going to get.
602
00:56:33.630 –> 00:56:36.450
A Ashcraft: into some movies, and some movies really don’t.
603
00:56:37.440 –> 00:56:43.980
Shlomo Sher: I mean to me it’s it’s pretty rare, but let me, let me bring up the donkey donkey alert for club and let’s let them let’s talk about it together.
604
00:56:44.310 –> 00:56:48.480
Shlomo Sher: Okay, because the donkey donkey I gotta say that’s a pretty funny name.
605
00:56:48.990 –> 00:56:51.180
Shlomo Sher: donkey donkey literature club it’s a Japanese game.
606
00:56:51.690 –> 00:56:55.530
Shlomo Sher: So this is a really interesting game, so this also came out.
607
00:56:56.880 –> 00:57:03.630
Shlomo Sher: I I think this came out a couple of years ago, but then they came up with a new version in like June.
608
00:57:04.650 –> 00:57:14.550
Shlomo Sher: So it looks like a cutie like a cutesy dating Center so it’s another dating sin because it’s interesting these dating sims really kind of bring out some possibilities right.
609
00:57:16.230 –> 00:57:28.410
Shlomo Sher: So it looks like this cutesy dating Sim it’s like this visual novel about a high school guy trying to get some girls hey but it’s actually a underneath in a psychological horror.
610
00:57:29.160 –> 00:57:39.630
Shlomo Sher: game that breaks the fourth wall and addresses the player directly right and personally just breaking the form, I get kudos to any games that break the fourth wall that do it well, I just think it’s so cool.
611
00:57:41.130 –> 00:57:53.100
Shlomo Sher: And it goes to some very dark places and some very dark ways right, so it does, it has to have the of the girls that you’re that essentially you’re you’re going after.
612
00:57:54.180 –> 00:57:56.100
Shlomo Sher: It separately end up committing suicide.
613
00:57:58.200 –> 00:58:06.120
Shlomo Sher: One of which you need to I think you you watch and then you’re forced to watch as our body to case.
614
00:58:07.980 –> 00:58:09.090
Shlomo Sher: There is self harm.
615
00:58:10.650 –> 00:58:20.190
Shlomo Sher: there’s physical abuse and again and again this is like a cutesy manga kind of like stories that you’re not expecting that right.
616
00:58:21.180 –> 00:58:36.660
A Ashcraft: Certainly in the West or not, but I know that that you know manga is as the manga as a style and manga as a, as you know, a cartoonish cartooning style is has been used in Japan to tell all kinds of stories.
617
00:58:37.230 –> 00:58:37.530
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
618
00:58:38.400 –> 00:58:42.210
A Ashcraft: Fair enough, Japan might not be quite as shocking in Japan.
619
00:58:42.870 –> 00:58:50.160
Shlomo Sher: Maybe, maybe, but the complaints is that the marketing makes it seem very light.
620
00:58:50.490 –> 00:58:53.730
Shlomo Sher: And if you look at the at the Ad It really seems very light.
621
00:58:54.090 –> 00:59:03.120
Shlomo Sher: Now the but That said, the game originally had the warning this game is not suitable for children or those who are easily disturbed.
622
00:59:03.690 –> 00:59:16.140
Shlomo Sher: So this warning came on the first time you played the game right, so the first time you play the game, you have this warning and that’s a pretty I mean it’s really interesting that you have this super.
623
00:59:16.170 –> 00:59:24.840
A Ashcraft: problem with that right, because if you’re expecting it to be one thing and then you get a warning label that says hey this might not be the thing this this.
624
00:59:25.380 –> 00:59:33.210
A Ashcraft: That suggests and doesn’t even say just suggest that it might that that the tone is the tone is going to be different than what you’re expecting.
625
00:59:33.840 –> 00:59:37.110
A Ashcraft: Right you’re not you’re not going to heed that warning.
626
00:59:39.030 –> 00:59:41.340
Shlomo Sher: or yeah you can easily.
627
00:59:42.000 –> 00:59:42.780
A Ashcraft: easily like.
628
00:59:43.650 –> 00:59:46.560
A Ashcraft: How how how horrible could it be look at it.
629
00:59:47.160 –> 00:59:49.260
Shlomo Sher: Right right and.
630
00:59:49.650 –> 00:59:55.860
A Ashcraft: As you’ll just be this past Maya you’ll just you know just it won’t even you don’t even remember remember it.
631
00:59:56.850 –> 01:00:01.230
Shlomo Sher: And I also want to say that there’s been plenty of games where.
632
01:00:02.340 –> 01:00:08.790
Shlomo Sher: The warning was on, and I was in another room, the first time it had loaded like I went to get a drink or something.
633
01:00:08.970 –> 01:00:10.560
A Ashcraft: Right right, so you may not even see it.
634
01:00:10.740 –> 01:00:23.040
Shlomo Sher: Right so so you may not say there was a URL to a website that will give you a full list of content mornings, if you wanted it, but you know part of it is what’s interesting about this game is the weights playing with genre.
635
01:00:24.060 –> 01:00:24.450
A Ashcraft: Right.
636
01:00:24.510 –> 01:00:29.850
Shlomo Sher: The weights subverting your expectations right, so this is, you know.
637
01:00:31.080 –> 01:00:41.100
Shlomo Sher: Again i’m thinking, if this was a movie right what would they do, that the trailer for the movie would probably hint that there’s a darker side.
638
01:00:42.120 –> 01:00:54.480
Shlomo Sher: Right, because you would think that you wouldn’t bring like kids to a move to to it and then have it turned to be a horror movie right right um but.
639
01:00:55.710 –> 01:00:58.350
A Ashcraft: How many people how many people went to see Brokeback mountain.
640
01:00:58.410 –> 01:01:01.140
A Ashcraft: Thinking it’s going to be a Western story about cowboys.
641
01:01:02.250 –> 01:01:11.190
Shlomo Sher: Right yeah that’s that’s that’s true, though it’s though it’s interesting the kind of things that unique content warnings about right because.
642
01:01:11.490 –> 01:01:24.870
Shlomo Sher: Again right if this is let’s say something that is an is you’re going to bring kids to and then it’s going to be super freaky for them right that seems very different than a movie that has you know, a couple get you know gay guys kissing.
643
01:01:25.740 –> 01:01:28.260
Shlomo Sher: Right or you know do more than kissing right.
644
01:01:28.740 –> 01:01:39.990
Shlomo Sher: But you know which was very shocking to many people at the time right right but but still, it would, it would be an adult audience that that went to that movie and the movie was rated R five right, you know if I may have correctly yeah.
645
01:01:40.020 –> 01:01:46.020
Shlomo Sher: right for sure um and it’s interesting I actually don’t know what okey dokey was rated a.
646
01:01:46.140 –> 01:01:51.270
A Ashcraft: And I yeah and and remember if it’s a Japanese game it wouldn’t have gone through the crb.
647
01:01:53.070 –> 01:01:53.670
Shlomo Sher: So is there.
648
01:01:53.730 –> 01:01:54.900
A Ashcraft: Is a service that market.
649
01:01:54.990 –> 01:01:59.010
Shlomo Sher: Is that always the case if they sell it in the American market do they need to.
650
01:01:59.220 –> 01:02:01.020
Shlomo Sher: They don’t have a need to but but.
651
01:02:01.980 –> 01:02:04.050
A Ashcraft: there’s a lot of places they’re just want to advertise it.
652
01:02:04.530 –> 01:02:06.420
A Ashcraft: Okay, publishers really want to do it.
653
01:02:06.750 –> 01:02:07.410
Shlomo Sher: Right so.
654
01:02:07.470 –> 01:02:17.010
A Ashcraft: America publishers, so if it had an American publisher that you know picked it up from the Japanese and then and then, and then you know and and.
655
01:02:18.570 –> 01:02:19.830
A Ashcraft: there’s a word for i’m looking for.
656
01:02:20.100 –> 01:02:20.820
Shlomo Sher: lies that.
657
01:02:21.030 –> 01:02:31.860
A Ashcraft: localize it yeah localize it for the US right they probably would have, but if it was just if it’s like you know, some people, bringing over Japanese games which a lot of people do that.
658
01:02:33.000 –> 01:02:35.100
A Ashcraft: You know, it may not have any srp rating.
659
01:02:35.580 –> 01:02:42.510
Shlomo Sher: Okay right because notice right, this is like a mature rating right then that’s a warning and the msrp than.
660
01:02:42.600 –> 01:02:43.950
A Ashcraft: taking care of and I know I know.
661
01:02:44.040 –> 01:02:47.280
A Ashcraft: I don’t know if Japan has a similar organization.
662
01:02:47.880 –> 01:02:54.420
Shlomo Sher: And I don’t either, and they have very different cultural norms when it comes to a lot of this stuff right right.
663
01:02:56.040 –> 01:03:12.210
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so lots of fans considered essentially the Games for deceptive right and the developer, which was a team salvato they also added the the follower the following option for four players so as a reaction to this right they say.
664
01:03:13.350 –> 01:03:21.990
Shlomo Sher: At the beginning, I think of every kind of game as an option would you like to review detailed content warnings which contain spoilers right.
665
01:03:22.380 –> 01:03:29.520
Shlomo Sher: As well as a setting that would want the player in game whenever whenever they were about to experience potentially upsetting content.
666
01:03:30.210 –> 01:03:33.180
A Ashcraft: So, have you ever read Galapagos.
667
01:03:37.200 –> 01:03:38.640
A Ashcraft: wanna go on vonnegut novel.
668
01:03:39.690 –> 01:03:44.250
Shlomo Sher: Oh, I love me Kurt vonnegut but I don’t know i’ve read a lot of them I don’t ever read that one.
669
01:03:44.340 –> 01:03:53.490
A Ashcraft: So in Galapagos he the narrator there the the narrator is a character who’s 10,000 years old and telling the story from 10,000 years in our future.
670
01:03:53.850 –> 01:04:05.400
A Ashcraft: Okay, the story is taking place and more or less are our contemporary now and and the narrator at one point tells us that that he understands that.
671
01:04:06.570 –> 01:04:16.740
A Ashcraft: That when characters die in a book, it can be quite shocking and quite and and and and quite you know quite traumatizing for the reader.
672
01:04:17.280 –> 01:04:29.520
A Ashcraft: And so what he’s going to do as he, as he narrates the story is from from this point on he’s going to put an asterisk next to the name of anybody who’s going to die in the next 24 hours in this story.
673
01:04:30.180 –> 01:04:30.540
Okay.
674
01:04:31.980 –> 01:04:42.120
A Ashcraft: Like oh that’s a funny that’s a funny little gag and then you know, the first time, it shows up it’s like a fish that somebody catching and the end is in plans to eat and so hot.
675
01:04:42.510 –> 01:04:53.970
A Ashcraft: Right right, and then you know, and then, and then a little bit later it’s a character and you’re like oh what’s happening and then at one point in the book everybody’s name starts getting an asterisk.
676
01:04:55.440 –> 01:04:55.920
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
677
01:04:56.340 –> 01:05:07.800
A Ashcraft: So he’s not using it he’s he’s he’s using this idea and remember this was this book was written in the 80s, I think so well before any of these content morning ideas became a thing.
678
01:05:09.840 –> 01:05:13.680
Shlomo Sher: But I must i’m assuming he’s making you know he’s making fun with it.
679
01:05:13.770 –> 01:05:14.430
A Ashcraft: Because he is.
680
01:05:14.490 –> 01:05:15.510
Shlomo Sher: he’s a funny guy like.
681
01:05:15.570 –> 01:05:17.940
A Ashcraft: he’s a funny guy and he’s making he’s making fun of it.
682
01:05:18.240 –> 01:05:19.380
A Ashcraft: But he’s also.
683
01:05:21.450 –> 01:05:24.780
A Ashcraft: You know his books are are funny but they’re also very pointed.
684
01:05:25.260 –> 01:05:29.010
A Ashcraft: Right and so he’s making a very pointed statement about.
685
01:05:29.550 –> 01:05:31.350
Shlomo Sher: These kinds of warnings yeah.
686
01:05:31.500 –> 01:05:32.760
A Ashcraft: yeah, and I mean.
687
01:05:32.910 –> 01:05:44.370
Shlomo Sher: it’s it’s interesting you know this this ability to have in the beginning of every i’m assuming, not just the first time you play the game, but you know as part of your menu, would you like to.
688
01:05:44.430 –> 01:05:46.230
Shlomo Sher: Review detailed content morning.
689
01:05:46.350 –> 01:05:55.560
A Ashcraft: which could be like a little a little asterisk appearing like in the in the corner of the screen like hey some really dark stuff is about to happen.
690
01:05:55.620 –> 01:05:59.520
Shlomo Sher: Right well, though this I mean but notice that would be like an option.
691
01:06:00.030 –> 01:06:09.420
Shlomo Sher: Right right, so you know it’s not like you’re forcing everybody to go through that you’re saying look, if this is something you care about if this is something that that you’re worried about.
692
01:06:10.440 –> 01:06:23.250
Shlomo Sher: i’m going to put it in part of the game settings that you can you know get the content warning about everything that’s going to happen and that’s going to you know that might give out a bunch of spoilers.
693
01:06:24.120 –> 01:06:32.430
Shlomo Sher: That might you know, make the story, not as impactful but maybe that’s kind of the point for you, because you don’t want to be impacted negatively by it.
694
01:06:32.820 –> 01:06:35.700
Shlomo Sher: Right well leaving other players to be able to enjoy the story.
695
01:06:36.120 –> 01:06:49.680
Shlomo Sher: Right right, I thought it was, but this, but this idea also of being able to have a setting and, by the way, okay don’t tell me anything but give me, let me know whenever something potentially upsetting.
696
01:06:50.070 –> 01:06:53.490
Shlomo Sher: And it’s interesting also what would count as potentially upsetting and how.
697
01:06:53.580 –> 01:06:55.530
Shlomo Sher: You know, rather would read this.
698
01:06:55.740 –> 01:07:06.390
A Ashcraft: And it could be used, you know, in a way to like even add suspense right and be like you know the like on a roller coaster when you’re getting cranked up the hill.
699
01:07:06.480 –> 01:07:15.270
A Ashcraft: right that that cranking up the hill is this big suspenseful moment because you know, and you get to the top of the hill you’re going to be dropped off the edge.
700
01:07:17.730 –> 01:07:29.070
Shlomo Sher: yeah though I don’t know if that has the same impact that a story has you know, this is a physical experience but yeah you know, this is why, sometimes I ride roller coasters my eyes closed.
701
01:07:30.660 –> 01:07:30.960
Shlomo Sher: Right.
702
01:07:31.980 –> 01:07:48.690
Shlomo Sher: When I when I when I there so to me there’s like these, you know these kind of two questions here that are pulling against each other right because uh you know what is it these kind of situations where you got these kind of.
703
01:07:50.160 –> 01:07:54.810
Shlomo Sher: I can see how things could trigger certain people yeah right and.
704
01:07:56.010 –> 01:08:12.510
A Ashcraft: We and what we’re what we’re what we’re becoming aware of, and what we’re becoming sort of alert to is that people out there have trauma and they’ve been traumatized by other things and we don’t want to to reach Rama ties them.
705
01:08:14.670 –> 01:08:19.800
A Ashcraft: Without you know, without realizing it with that we don’t want to accidentally re traumatize people.
706
01:08:20.850 –> 01:08:21.630
Shlomo Sher: Yes.
707
01:08:21.660 –> 01:08:28.320
A Ashcraft: those in need, because then they don’t like our games and we don’t and and and that’s bad for us, we want people to like our games.
708
01:08:28.650 –> 01:08:34.560
Shlomo Sher: Sure that’s from the game designer perspective for my purse you know from from the episodes perspective is you don’t want to cause harm.
709
01:08:35.130 –> 01:08:49.140
Shlomo Sher: Right a though you know if we’re talking about a potential professional snowflake he situation where, if it turns out that what people need our exposure to stuff like this to be able to handle it more.
710
01:08:49.410 –> 01:08:54.540
A Ashcraft: I don’t i’m not ever to tell somebody what they need or want to tell people what’s what they’re going to need.
711
01:08:54.600 –> 01:08:59.790
Shlomo Sher: No, no i’m i’m talking about what the objective if it turns out, psychologically, this is what.
712
01:08:59.880 –> 01:09:15.930
Shlomo Sher: You know people in general need, then, that is also part of the responsibility right if you’re harming you could be harming someone both by putting something in and by taking something out, I think you know but i’m i’m certainly I would play it safe here.
713
01:09:16.110 –> 01:09:16.770
Shlomo Sher: person.
714
01:09:17.430 –> 01:09:18.090
A Ashcraft: You know right.
715
01:09:18.390 –> 01:09:19.170
A Ashcraft: I feel like they.
716
01:09:19.260 –> 01:09:24.750
A Ashcraft: They did I feel like they did the right thing, every step along the way.
717
01:09:26.700 –> 01:09:28.170
Shlomo Sher: That the donkey donkey.
718
01:09:28.440 –> 01:09:28.920
yeah.
719
01:09:30.180 –> 01:09:30.690
Shlomo Sher: So.
720
01:09:31.770 –> 01:09:38.550
A Ashcraft: You know it’s it well, I should say, maybe not donkey donkey but the the other one boyfriend.
721
01:09:38.580 –> 01:09:39.720
Shlomo Sher: He doesn’t.
722
01:09:40.260 –> 01:09:49.440
A Ashcraft: yeah donkey donkey donkey you know game is not suitable for children or those who are easily disturbed that seems like a reasonable thing to say, to.
723
01:09:50.910 –> 01:09:54.870
Shlomo Sher: I mean to me you’ve got this kind of you know.
724
01:09:55.710 –> 01:10:05.730
Shlomo Sher: This question of also what practical steps games need to do to actually help its audience in this, and I want to kind of separate this what you have to do where if you’re not doing it it’s wrong.
725
01:10:06.000 –> 01:10:22.110
Shlomo Sher: versus what you would do out of the kindness of your heart but don’t really have to write like you know to me like you know did either one of these companies do anything wrong, I think, is kind of like you know.
726
01:10:23.130 –> 01:10:34.770
Shlomo Sher: The first question, and if they didn’t do wrong could they still do something nice for their audience where they could still do good right, even if you even if you even if you’re if you didn’t do anything wrong there’s still the question of.
727
01:10:35.040 –> 01:10:37.500
A Ashcraft: kindness kindness or appreciate it right.
728
01:10:37.830 –> 01:10:38.520
A Ashcraft: Right and.
729
01:10:38.580 –> 01:10:44.700
A Ashcraft: You know, then there’s a there’s a big gap between doing something wrong and giving somebody a kind of doing something that’s kind.
730
01:10:45.630 –> 01:10:48.030
A Ashcraft: there’s a lot of space between those two things.
731
01:10:48.900 –> 01:10:53.580
Shlomo Sher: Right and with the kindness, you can keep going and going and going right, you can you know.
732
01:10:53.790 –> 01:10:56.160
Shlomo Sher: A lot of the super auditory it’s cold.
733
01:10:57.480 –> 01:11:06.300
Shlomo Sher: So you know it seems to me that you’re balancing these kind of two responsibilities also right to not recklessly or negligently harm your audience right right.
734
01:11:06.330 –> 01:11:14.880
Shlomo Sher: Right and, and this applies to any producer for product right regardless of a product shouldn’t harm its users so right you don’t make a card to blows up.
735
01:11:16.170 –> 01:11:17.760
Shlomo Sher: And you don’t want to make a game that makes us.
736
01:11:17.760 –> 01:11:18.990
Shlomo Sher: Players sexist.
737
01:11:20.130 –> 01:11:34.980
Shlomo Sher: For example, right that part is easy right and then you’ve got a regular use of products and that’s harder right so right because irregular use and what about the variety of users to come to the product with different abilities skills that are expectations.
738
01:11:35.010 –> 01:11:42.630
A Ashcraft: Right and another regular use of a product is by the way, you know, bringing bringing a game out of his home culture.
739
01:11:43.980 –> 01:11:45.720
A Ashcraft: To a different to your culture.
740
01:11:46.920 –> 01:11:48.120
Shlomo Sher: Okay, where where.
741
01:11:48.390 –> 01:11:48.840
Shlomo Sher: If things.
742
01:11:50.310 –> 01:11:52.500
A Ashcraft: You know if donkey donkey was.
743
01:11:53.880 –> 01:12:06.930
A Ashcraft: You know if it doesn’t have a US publisher if nobody’s consciously localized it for the US, then you know somebody bringing in from Japan to the US is you know that’s not the way that that product was meant to be used.
744
01:12:08.610 –> 01:12:14.910
Shlomo Sher: Maybe i’m you know i’m not really sure I you know i’m really not sure because i’m not really sure how differently.
745
01:12:16.110 –> 01:12:19.050
Shlomo Sher: Japanese people would interpret it if that’s the real issue.
746
01:12:20.520 –> 01:12:27.210
Shlomo Sher: Because it seems to me that the story itself and the story, and it seems like a good story like a very smart story.
747
01:12:29.130 –> 01:12:34.800
Shlomo Sher: You know that this story just might require it either way and that it’s possible.
748
01:12:35.940 –> 01:12:40.680
Shlomo Sher: That I mean God it might be the story that would be even better for American audiences.
749
01:12:41.130 –> 01:12:44.400
Shlomo Sher: really know and because the surprise would be greater.
750
01:12:44.730 –> 01:12:45.300
A Ashcraft: Right right right.
751
01:12:45.330 –> 01:12:48.390
A Ashcraft: But certainly certainly, though, that would be a creative decision.
752
01:12:50.850 –> 01:13:02.700
A Ashcraft: To be made by the by the creators and publishers of the game to decide who their audience is and and how much they’re willing to to you know push that audience out of their comfort zone.
753
01:13:03.150 –> 01:13:11.460
Shlomo Sher: Right and notice right your audience when you’re thinking about your audience you’re thinking of what you would think of as a regular person your genetic or a regular person right.
754
01:13:11.700 –> 01:13:12.000
Shlomo Sher: Right.
755
01:13:12.060 –> 01:13:13.860
A Ashcraft: But then you’re Japanese person that’s.
756
01:13:14.010 –> 01:13:16.680
A Ashcraft: That that regular audiences regular Japanese person.
757
01:13:16.710 –> 01:13:18.780
A Ashcraft: Right not under white American person.
758
01:13:19.170 –> 01:13:28.170
Shlomo Sher: And of course it’s also, of course, these kind of the assumptions that game designers make about what who is this regular person or themselves kind of interesting and we all have our.
759
01:13:28.200 –> 01:13:32.370
A Ashcraft: prejudices and, hopefully, you know marketing marketing and and.
760
01:13:32.640 –> 01:13:43.440
A Ashcraft: And, and you know product, and you know testing will dissuade you have any erroneous ideas you have about who your market is.
761
01:13:44.640 –> 01:13:47.370
Shlomo Sher: Sure, I hopefully yet always but yet.
762
01:13:47.400 –> 01:13:49.530
A Ashcraft: not always but that’s the idea that’s the goal.
763
01:13:49.740 –> 01:14:00.780
Shlomo Sher: But OK, but beside these kind of generic regular player obviously you have things like kids getting their hands on the game right, even if the game is not made for kids right because you’re not thinking of them as part of your audience right.
764
01:14:01.350 –> 01:14:12.300
Shlomo Sher: You have all these people with different kind of potential traumas that are coming in suicide is a big deal yeah I mean I mean.
765
01:14:12.510 –> 01:14:24.780
A Ashcraft: Just from just from the description of this, this is not a game that i’m particularly interested in playing I don’t want to watch somebody commits suicide I don’t want like that I don’t that’s not something I need in my life.
766
01:14:25.350 –> 01:14:28.560
Shlomo Sher: You know I don’t need horror movies right I.
767
01:14:28.950 –> 01:14:32.130
A Ashcraft: Go see I don’t go to see very many horror movies, for this exact reason.
768
01:14:32.280 –> 01:14:35.760
Shlomo Sher: And millions, you know billions of people love horror movies.
769
01:14:35.790 –> 01:14:36.090
A Ashcraft: yeah.
770
01:14:36.120 –> 01:14:40.020
A Ashcraft: And i’m not saying that they’re wrong for that i’m just saying this, this is not for me.
771
01:14:40.350 –> 01:15:00.330
Shlomo Sher: right back with you in that yeah i’ve no desire to but, but again notice right it’s it seems that you have to have some sort, and this is for every product right, then you got to always know that someone might potentially use it, that was not your intended audiences right to some degree.
772
01:15:00.510 –> 01:15:02.610
A Ashcraft: Right we’re using it as intended way.
773
01:15:02.940 –> 01:15:12.480
Shlomo Sher: or in its intended way right right, and you know i’m thinking about things like our where we have labels for young kids, this is a choking hazard yeah right there, maybe it’s not really meant for.
774
01:15:12.480 –> 01:15:12.720
kids.
775
01:15:13.860 –> 01:15:14.220
Shlomo Sher: Right.
776
01:15:16.050 –> 01:15:26.820
Shlomo Sher: um so okay so that’s on the one hand, they have this right, on the other hand, and there’s also let’s say other, and you know we can never mind i’ll get to that, but the other side is.
777
01:15:27.240 –> 01:15:37.140
Shlomo Sher: You know, to give the audience the product they paid for I paid for a good story, so it means a don’t deceive me about what i’m getting but also don’t spoil it for me.
778
01:15:38.220 –> 01:15:47.100
Shlomo Sher: right if I buy something for the plot, and you spoil the plot, and in this game it’s all sorts of visual novel so the plot is the key.
779
01:15:47.310 –> 01:15:47.910
A Ashcraft: Right right.
780
01:15:48.060 –> 01:15:51.240
A Ashcraft: it’s it’s all about plot it’s all about narrative fun.
781
01:15:51.810 –> 01:16:00.330
Shlomo Sher: And if you’re giving me a content warning tell me what I need to watch out for because it’s the twist in the story you’ve just ruined it for me.
782
01:16:00.930 –> 01:16:05.670
A Ashcraft: Right, yes, if it’s a twist or if it’s just the tone like I mean.
783
01:16:06.600 –> 01:16:07.080
Shlomo Sher: The tongue.
784
01:16:07.740 –> 01:16:19.860
A Ashcraft: there’s plenty of ghost stories that don’t have a twist and don’t need a twist and don’t and it can tell you that there are ghosts stories and can tell you that there’s going to be, you know scary ghosts them without without blowing the plot.
785
01:16:21.060 –> 01:16:24.960
A Ashcraft: And then there’s and then there’s you know and then there’s.
786
01:16:25.980 –> 01:16:27.000
A Ashcraft: I see dead people.
787
01:16:28.590 –> 01:16:29.460
A Ashcraft: What was that movie.
788
01:16:29.760 –> 01:16:30.660
Shlomo Sher: that’s six.
789
01:16:31.140 –> 01:16:31.710
A Ashcraft: cents yeah.
790
01:16:31.740 –> 01:16:32.610
A Ashcraft: six cents that’s it.
791
01:16:33.360 –> 01:16:39.720
A Ashcraft: So, and then there’s the six cents, which is like Oh, you will actually blow blow the story, if you tell me that the twist.
792
01:16:40.260 –> 01:16:44.190
A Ashcraft: Right right and so again it’s a creative decision you know to.
793
01:16:44.250 –> 01:16:45.030
To decide.
794
01:16:46.620 –> 01:16:51.900
Shlomo Sher: And, and to me that would games like okey dokey what’s so you know.
795
01:16:52.950 –> 01:16:56.730
Shlomo Sher: In the fact that there is genre bending you know.
796
01:16:58.050 –> 01:17:05.070
Shlomo Sher: I I applaud games like that yeah right, I mean, I think I think their story sounds really interesting.
797
01:17:05.190 –> 01:17:05.670
A Ashcraft: yeah.
798
01:17:05.790 –> 01:17:09.930
Shlomo Sher: And at the same time and there’s really interesting creative friction between these.
799
01:17:09.990 –> 01:17:14.820
A Ashcraft: These ideas right with the tone and the and the story and yeah and.
800
01:17:15.300 –> 01:17:17.070
A Ashcraft: it’s really interesting things you can do with that.
801
01:17:17.430 –> 01:17:24.660
Shlomo Sher: At the same time, I can see how you know I can see how it could be shocking for people so again right finding this kind of middle ground.
802
01:17:25.230 –> 01:17:39.840
Shlomo Sher: And I wonder, so I was, I made a list and i’m curious if you have more things to add to this things that i’m assuming are not an msrp but you might have content 44 do you have an idea of a bunch of you have any ideas of what that will be.
803
01:17:39.990 –> 01:17:43.080
A Ashcraft: No, I haven’t I have not given that a moment’s thought.
804
01:17:43.500 –> 01:17:48.570
Shlomo Sher: You know I haven’t either until until this thing right so um torture.
805
01:17:50.760 –> 01:17:52.530
Shlomo Sher: Sexual emotional abuse.
806
01:17:52.740 –> 01:17:56.070
Shlomo Sher: Sure, and notice right sexual abuse that.
807
01:17:57.300 –> 01:18:00.750
A Ashcraft: you’re talking about all these things that are not necessarily on the srp list.
808
01:18:01.110 –> 01:18:04.170
Shlomo Sher: Right, so all of these i’m assuming are not so sexual abuse.
809
01:18:04.170 –> 01:18:05.400
Shlomo Sher: I like to swim that.
810
01:18:05.640 –> 01:18:10.650
Shlomo Sher: sexual assault would be well great that’s that’s true i’m not necessarily assuming that.
811
01:18:10.920 –> 01:18:15.390
Shlomo Sher: Okay, but you know i’m thinking of some of the things that might be so a.
812
01:18:16.560 –> 01:18:20.490
Shlomo Sher: eating disorders, a animal abuse.
813
01:18:21.630 –> 01:18:25.860
Shlomo Sher: cannibalism genital trauma or mutilation.
814
01:18:26.940 –> 01:18:37.050
Shlomo Sher: spiders or snakes the reason i’m thinking of spiders and snakes so remember we hadn’t we had episode 11 was on consenting games right and.
815
01:18:37.560 –> 01:18:48.300
Shlomo Sher: You essentially told me about how consent works and tabletop games and how you ask people essentially what kind of things are they not comfortable with.
816
01:18:48.570 –> 01:18:52.170
Shlomo Sher: Right, including things like spiders or snakes.
817
01:18:52.590 –> 01:18:53.520
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
818
01:18:53.580 –> 01:18:55.500
A Ashcraft: anything, it can be, it could be anything.
819
01:18:55.920 –> 01:18:57.660
Shlomo Sher: It could be anything at all right so.
820
01:18:57.690 –> 01:19:03.120
A Ashcraft: In those tabletop games of course you’re dealing with you know four to four to six individual people.
821
01:19:03.420 –> 01:19:07.890
A Ashcraft: rush to have their own individual things to they’re willing to talk about or not talk about.
822
01:19:09.450 –> 01:19:18.540
A Ashcraft: And you know, have their own phobias, and have their own traumas and so you can’t it’s hard to generalize that because it’s so specific.
823
01:19:19.830 –> 01:19:28.170
Shlomo Sher: yeah um and you know that might apply to any of these in some sense right.
824
01:19:28.950 –> 01:19:37.110
Shlomo Sher: So this kind of a question of you know, does it really make sense to put a warning, I mean you know I want to see jungle cruise with my son, and it has this.
825
01:19:37.980 –> 01:19:46.530
Shlomo Sher: snake seen that would have horrified my wife Carmen right Carmen is scared scared of snakes she would have been terrified if she side.
826
01:19:46.950 –> 01:19:48.270
Shlomo Sher: i’ve never seen a snake.
827
01:19:49.320 –> 01:19:52.500
Shlomo Sher: snake seen so you know.
828
01:19:52.680 –> 01:19:53.700
Shlomo Sher: So powerful is that.
829
01:19:54.750 –> 01:19:56.430
Shlomo Sher: I thought I thought it was pretty great.
830
01:19:57.570 –> 01:20:00.600
Shlomo Sher: And it came as a surprise, but she would have been freaked out.
831
01:20:00.780 –> 01:20:02.850
A Ashcraft: Right right, she would have probably like two warning.
832
01:20:03.570 –> 01:20:09.870
Shlomo Sher: Right, she would have really liked the warning, but again right does it doesn’t make sense to do any of these things.
833
01:20:09.900 –> 01:20:15.120
A Ashcraft: Right, would you would you have been surprised if, at the beginning of the movie they’d said hey.
834
01:20:16.320 –> 01:20:19.440
A Ashcraft: There are snakes there’s going to be snakes in this movie.
835
01:20:20.670 –> 01:20:23.460
A Ashcraft: Right, you have a problem with snakes this may not be the movie for you.
836
01:20:24.060 –> 01:20:29.070
Shlomo Sher: And, of course, well, of course, you can’t do them the middle of the moon in the beginning and movie because you already paid to go see the movie.
837
01:20:29.130 –> 01:20:33.540
A Ashcraft: The movie yeah so maybe maybe you know at the at the at the box office.
838
01:20:33.840 –> 01:20:44.640
Shlomo Sher: At the buck stops so when you go, so this would be like the ECB warning right, instead of just seeing like rated PG 13 and it would be like wild you know mild language so.
839
01:20:44.640 –> 01:20:45.870
A Ashcraft: My question to you is.
840
01:20:46.650 –> 01:20:56.700
A Ashcraft: The moment the moment in the film would probably still have been surprising, even if you had known that there were going to be snakes in the film, because if you’re going to see a jungle cruise movie.
841
01:20:57.660 –> 01:21:04.200
A Ashcraft: You can make some some and somebody said Oh, by the way, there are snakes in this film and you’re like oh yeah Of course there are so jungle cruise movie.
842
01:21:04.830 –> 01:21:05.520
Shlomo Sher: yeah but.
843
01:21:05.790 –> 01:21:08.970
A Ashcraft: You know it wouldn’t have been the same right it wouldn’t have shocked you.
844
01:21:11.040 –> 01:21:16.650
Shlomo Sher: Not me and but yeah again, I think I think of Carmen and I think she even.
845
01:21:16.770 –> 01:21:19.080
Shlomo Sher: Though the morning, she would have enjoyed that warning.
846
01:21:19.560 –> 01:21:23.610
Shlomo Sher: yeah you know, like look I remember Do you remember there’s a movie called our keynote or something.
847
01:21:24.210 –> 01:21:28.590
Shlomo Sher: It was all about it was all about giant spiders I was like okay.
848
01:21:28.950 –> 01:21:29.160
A Ashcraft: there’s.
849
01:21:29.460 –> 01:21:30.720
Shlomo Sher: A wreck arachnophobia.
850
01:21:30.870 –> 01:21:33.210
Shlomo Sher: Right yeah I was like there’s no way i’m going to see that movie.
851
01:21:33.780 –> 01:21:36.150
Shlomo Sher: right but but it’s literally the name I mean it’s.
852
01:21:36.420 –> 01:21:36.900
Shlomo Sher: everywhere.
853
01:21:37.320 –> 01:21:38.220
A Ashcraft: Right in the name.
854
01:21:38.490 –> 01:21:39.060
A Ashcraft: You know.
855
01:21:39.240 –> 01:21:40.260
A Ashcraft: shark I know.
856
01:21:40.560 –> 01:21:45.180
Shlomo Sher: Research data right though probably not a very freaky movie right.
857
01:21:46.440 –> 01:21:50.250
A Ashcraft: But if you have a phobia of sharks or tornadoes you, you know, to avoid it.
858
01:21:50.700 –> 01:22:01.650
Shlomo Sher: I guess so right but but part of me really does kind of wonder, you know so there’s, by the way, I found this there’s a website called does the dog die and.
859
01:22:01.830 –> 01:22:04.170
A Ashcraft: It was there, some people who get very, very upset.
860
01:22:04.530 –> 01:22:10.410
A Ashcraft: right if right if if an animal is killed in a film and there’s never any warning about that.
861
01:22:10.950 –> 01:22:12.660
Shlomo Sher: right which is interesting to me that and.
862
01:22:12.660 –> 01:22:13.380
A Ashcraft: it’s such a trope.
863
01:22:13.770 –> 01:22:16.470
A Ashcraft: it’s a trope that that Hollywood use this all the time.
864
01:22:17.130 –> 01:22:19.500
A Ashcraft: To usually to denote that somebody is evil.
865
01:22:20.520 –> 01:22:20.910
A Ashcraft: know.
866
01:22:20.940 –> 01:22:24.660
A Ashcraft: Right they’ll harmon animal all right oh that’s an evil guy right yeah.
867
01:22:24.840 –> 01:22:26.790
Shlomo Sher: that’s the domestic who would do that right.
868
01:22:26.820 –> 01:22:37.500
Shlomo Sher: Right, so they use crowd sources to tell you what media has things like do they have snakes are dying dog or rape scenes are eating disorders or stalking, and these are all these are all categories.
869
01:22:37.860 –> 01:22:47.790
Shlomo Sher: right that they have it is, do you think is this the kind of solution that games need like something like that that would you know be some sort of.
870
01:22:48.660 –> 01:22:59.100
Shlomo Sher: When people game it with people troll it with people with something if this work well kind of saw part of this problem is unnecessary, do you think.
871
01:22:59.670 –> 01:23:00.300
You know.
872
01:23:03.090 –> 01:23:08.490
A Ashcraft: there’s certainly that if somebody wanted to do that, it would nobody would stop them.
873
01:23:09.120 –> 01:23:11.370
Shlomo Sher: And a handful of people would appreciate it.
874
01:23:12.420 –> 01:23:12.630
Shlomo Sher: Right.
875
01:23:13.200 –> 01:23:17.280
A Ashcraft: Right, but I don’t think that the market is big enough for it.
876
01:23:19.740 –> 01:23:28.230
Shlomo Sher: it’s a you know you say a handful of people i’m thinking 2.5 billion gamers whatever small percentage of that care about this stuff is a big probably a big number.
877
01:23:28.470 –> 01:23:31.680
A Ashcraft: it’s a big number but it’s not I mean.
878
01:23:35.100 –> 01:23:36.630
A Ashcraft: Is it big enough to.
879
01:23:36.870 –> 01:23:38.130
Shlomo Sher: support something like that.
880
01:23:38.130 –> 01:23:48.270
A Ashcraft: So support something like that, and the answer is probably know that a lot of these people are getting this information, the information that they need about games from reviews.
881
01:23:49.650 –> 01:23:52.950
A Ashcraft: From the you know ads from from other sources already.
882
01:23:53.460 –> 01:23:56.040
Shlomo Sher: right that there’s there’s enough of a conversation going on.
883
01:23:56.370 –> 01:23:59.400
Shlomo Sher: yeah though it’s interesting right if you have a particular kind of thing.
884
01:23:59.670 –> 01:24:00.180
A Ashcraft: Because here’s I.
885
01:24:00.540 –> 01:24:04.890
A Ashcraft: know you and I, as random people are not going to run into okey dokey literature club.
886
01:24:06.030 –> 01:24:06.870
A Ashcraft: accidentally.
887
01:24:07.380 –> 01:24:09.300
Shlomo Sher: Well, we are we’re not in the demographic.
888
01:24:09.360 –> 01:24:10.410
A Ashcraft: we’re not in the demographic.
889
01:24:10.440 –> 01:24:11.520
A Ashcraft: we’re not going to find it.
890
01:24:13.890 –> 01:24:22.500
A Ashcraft: Even you know even people even gamers are probably not going to find it unless they know about it, and if they know about it and they know some things about it already.
891
01:24:24.450 –> 01:24:29.400
Shlomo Sher: Yes, but again I kind of you know, I wonder about.
892
01:24:30.450 –> 01:24:43.260
Shlomo Sher: Lots of potential things that are kind of specific to you, but, most people wouldn’t be writing about right so things like so things let’s say like stalking that might be pretty common yeah.
893
01:24:43.470 –> 01:24:44.370
that’s you know i’m an.
894
01:24:45.390 –> 01:24:46.410
A Ashcraft: extremely common.
895
01:24:48.150 –> 01:24:49.200
Shlomo Sher: Extremely know.
896
01:24:50.280 –> 01:24:52.650
Shlomo Sher: In terms of people have those fear having those fears.
897
01:24:52.800 –> 01:24:53.070
A Ashcraft: yeah.
898
01:24:53.100 –> 01:24:53.700
Shlomo Sher: or having some.
899
01:24:53.910 –> 01:24:54.900
A Ashcraft: Having some trauma.
900
01:24:55.590 –> 01:24:56.970
A Ashcraft: trauma related to starting.
901
01:24:57.030 –> 01:25:01.980
A Ashcraft: To stalking or manipulative behavior by a loved one is extremely common.
902
01:25:02.640 –> 01:25:09.150
Shlomo Sher: right though it’s it’s funny cuz I mean you know it’s it’s interesting how many times have you seen this in movies.
903
01:25:09.600 –> 01:25:10.080
A Ashcraft: Well yeah.
904
01:25:10.230 –> 01:25:11.100
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean it’s.
905
01:25:11.580 –> 01:25:12.510
A Ashcraft: I mean it’s a problem.
906
01:25:13.260 –> 01:25:21.690
Shlomo Sher: Right it’s it’s it’s interesting to me it’s it’s the whole balance seems very hard, but I also feel like there’s a double standard here, as always.
907
01:25:22.260 –> 01:25:24.480
Shlomo Sher: between them between games and other reason games.
908
01:25:24.480 –> 01:25:25.170
A Ashcraft: yeah sure.
909
01:25:25.290 –> 01:25:25.920
Shlomo Sher: yeah right.
910
01:25:26.250 –> 01:25:29.340
A Ashcraft: yeah let’s get away with our movies get away with this stuff all the time.
911
01:25:30.390 –> 01:25:37.530
A Ashcraft: You know how how much just and we just accept it right it’s horrible but if there’s like so much violence and so much.
912
01:25:41.160 –> 01:25:42.210
A Ashcraft: misanthropy.
913
01:25:43.620 –> 01:25:56.880
Shlomo Sher: Well, speaking about this issue, in particular, and not getting into that stuff right, I mean the movie will tell you well it’s all about the story right we’re not going to tell you, everything about the story right.
914
01:25:58.110 –> 01:26:02.610
Shlomo Sher: we’re going to keep that for for the movie and.
915
01:26:02.880 –> 01:26:11.310
Shlomo Sher: Right you’re going to be responsible for the media that you that you that you take, but you know there there isn’t video games, of course, that additional thing where.
916
01:26:11.640 –> 01:26:26.040
Shlomo Sher: You know I am being stalked or my character is being stuck right, however, we kind of defined that right if i’m being stuck if i’m being emotionally manipulated that’s kind of different than the character you’re seeing on the screen, did you think.
917
01:26:26.430 –> 01:26:30.120
Shlomo Sher: How much of that do you think really does make it make a difference when it comes to.
918
01:26:30.420 –> 01:26:32.430
Shlomo Sher: warning about these these these.
919
01:26:33.480 –> 01:26:35.250
Shlomo Sher: Special content warnings.
920
01:26:37.650 –> 01:26:38.130
A Ashcraft: hmm.
921
01:26:40.860 –> 01:26:46.620
A Ashcraft: You know I still think I thought I still think it’s just a creative decision that that the craters need to make.
922
01:26:48.960 –> 01:26:53.460
A Ashcraft: Net, because they know they’re the best to know who their audience who they want who they think their audiences.
923
01:26:55.350 –> 01:26:59.190
A Ashcraft: Whether their audience has some is somebody going to appreciate a warning like this.
924
01:27:02.370 –> 01:27:03.870
A Ashcraft: yeah I don’t think it’s a.
925
01:27:09.480 –> 01:27:17.190
A Ashcraft: yeah I really think it comes down to that, just like the creators and a real intimate knowledge of of of the game and their audience.
926
01:27:18.360 –> 01:27:25.830
A Ashcraft: And it should come from that that should that should be the, you know as a creator we’re we’re we should be.
927
01:27:28.260 –> 01:27:31.650
A Ashcraft: We should we should be speaking for our audience at all times.
928
01:27:32.340 –> 01:27:35.040
A Ashcraft: We should be pressing for what’s right for the audience.
929
01:27:37.320 –> 01:27:43.770
Shlomo Sher: yeah but you know typically i’m thinking of a game like like the strange sure so right life is strange.
930
01:27:45.300 –> 01:27:50.550
Shlomo Sher: Right so it’s very much it’s a strong story story right.
931
01:27:51.750 –> 01:27:52.350
Shlomo Sher: and
932
01:27:53.400 –> 01:27:55.320
Shlomo Sher: In it, you know you’re playing this.
933
01:27:56.520 –> 01:28:09.450
Shlomo Sher: photography student maybe the beginning of college or prep high school, I think, beginning of college right and there’s a there’s a suicide scene there or a potential suicide.
934
01:28:10.230 –> 01:28:14.250
Shlomo Sher: Essentially, and we’ve talked about it in, and I think the episode with Jamie madigan.
935
01:28:14.670 –> 01:28:20.940
Shlomo Sher: yeah right where you can talk somebody off a roof, and if not, they jump and they show her jumping right.
936
01:28:21.990 –> 01:28:34.410
Shlomo Sher: And you know it’s interesting right who’s your audience there can you know is your is your audience going to include some people who have had people that they love commit suicide sure.
937
01:28:34.770 –> 01:28:35.490
A Ashcraft: Sure right.
938
01:28:35.580 –> 01:28:46.290
Shlomo Sher: But not the great majority of them will the great majority of them appreciate a scene like this which I thought was powerful right, so I still.
939
01:28:47.070 –> 01:28:51.180
A Ashcraft: Somehow you should talk to some high school literature teachers.
940
01:28:52.290 –> 01:28:55.980
A Ashcraft: Current creative writing teachers about just how many.
941
01:28:57.990 –> 01:29:01.980
A Ashcraft: How dark students high school students who is the.
942
01:29:02.040 –> 01:29:07.320
Shlomo Sher: Who is the audience, by the way the audience for this is high school students life is strange yeah.
943
01:29:08.370 –> 01:29:16.710
Shlomo Sher: I would die Okay, I mean, I guess, as the game designer i’m assuming you know this better than me but i’m assuming it’s it’s I was soon as wider than that.
944
01:29:17.310 –> 01:29:20.880
A Ashcraft: I mean it broke out to be wider than that, but I think that the.
945
01:29:21.180 –> 01:29:22.590
A Ashcraft: designated as a yes.
946
01:29:22.710 –> 01:29:24.600
A Ashcraft: it’s made, for you know young adults.
947
01:29:25.020 –> 01:29:26.040
Shlomo Sher: young adults okay.
948
01:29:26.130 –> 01:29:27.780
A Ashcraft: So you know 13 to 20.
949
01:29:28.800 –> 01:29:29.100
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
950
01:29:29.790 –> 01:29:35.970
A Ashcraft: So they’re all very dark these these kids think about dark things all the time.
951
01:29:36.840 –> 01:29:48.900
Shlomo Sher: So So what do you think now about this whole a did they need in a warning at all right, because if now you seem to be going to the point where the none of this is new for audience right.
952
01:29:49.140 –> 01:29:51.150
Shlomo Sher: Well, no, maybe I don’t need to come to don’t.
953
01:29:51.270 –> 01:29:52.650
A Ashcraft: get all the words in my mouth.
954
01:29:54.180 –> 01:29:55.680
Shlomo Sher: that’s that’s what i’m here, you said.
955
01:29:56.460 –> 01:30:03.930
A Ashcraft: Right, no, no i’m what i’m saying is that this again whatever warning that they put on life, the strange and I don’t remember what warning they did or did not.
956
01:30:04.230 –> 01:30:05.490
Shlomo Sher: know they didn’t didn’t put any warning.
957
01:30:05.580 –> 01:30:18.930
A Ashcraft: Right, and that was created, that was a creative decision with a full understanding of their audience, and so I am advocating for creators, making creative decisions advocating for their audience.
958
01:30:21.060 –> 01:30:27.210
A Ashcraft: So that may include that may include you know long lists of of.
959
01:30:29.130 –> 01:30:32.820
A Ashcraft: Of trigger warnings or no trigger warnings at all.
960
01:30:33.540 –> 01:30:39.930
Shlomo Sher: Right, but that to me their audience is everybody the audience or.
961
01:30:40.410 –> 01:30:41.820
A Ashcraft: The audience has never everybody.
962
01:30:41.850 –> 01:30:43.350
Shlomo Sher: Okay sorry their audience.
963
01:30:43.380 –> 01:30:44.670
A Ashcraft: include can’t I mean, is it.
964
01:30:44.880 –> 01:30:46.530
Shlomo Sher: The audience includes the.
965
01:30:47.400 –> 01:30:48.120
You know.
966
01:30:50.550 –> 01:31:05.220
Shlomo Sher: Their target audience and then people in there, even in their target the target demographic that are outliers right So how do you advocate for everybody, when you have conflicting obligations.
967
01:31:05.340 –> 01:31:08.010
A Ashcraft: You have you advocate for your target audience.
968
01:31:08.430 –> 01:31:09.450
Shlomo Sher: For a target audience.
969
01:31:09.630 –> 01:31:14.760
Shlomo Sher: Right so so that’s never going to be the people who were stopped or.
970
01:31:16.020 –> 01:31:29.370
Shlomo Sher: You know or had people who would they know the committed suicide, or any of these other kind of things that you know might be triggering after all, because they’re not your direct target audience you did you see what I mean.
971
01:31:29.520 –> 01:31:31.080
A Ashcraft: yeah I saw this what you mean but I.
972
01:31:31.080 –> 01:31:32.970
A Ashcraft: Think we’re in agreement here.
973
01:31:36.870 –> 01:31:39.990
Shlomo Sher: Are we, I feel like I don’t exactly disagree with you.
974
01:31:40.260 –> 01:31:43.200
Shlomo Sher: I mean, but i’m having trouble seeing a how exactly.
975
01:31:43.590 –> 01:31:45.210
A Ashcraft: You have to draw a line somewhere.
976
01:31:45.510 –> 01:31:46.320
Shlomo Sher: Yes, yeah.
977
01:31:46.350 –> 01:31:47.460
Shlomo Sher: Right yes.
978
01:31:47.760 –> 01:31:55.260
A Ashcraft: And so i’m describing where the line is and you’re and you’re saying no, no, the line is nowhere, there is no line.
979
01:31:55.320 –> 01:31:55.590
Ah.
980
01:31:57.000 –> 01:31:59.100
A Ashcraft: Of course, you have to draw a line somewhere.
981
01:31:59.460 –> 01:32:17.010
Shlomo Sher: Right what what i’m saying is that I don’t I don’t really see you know what your line is and I get what you’re saying that you’re saying advocate for the audience, but, for me, you know your for me your audience advocating for audience demands or.
982
01:32:17.100 –> 01:32:19.440
A Ashcraft: The on demand conflicting things.
983
01:32:19.500 –> 01:32:21.030
A Ashcraft: You know who your audiences.
984
01:32:22.860 –> 01:32:24.840
Shlomo Sher: Right, but again okay right but.
985
01:32:25.980 –> 01:32:27.000
A Ashcraft: How is it conflicting.
986
01:32:28.770 –> 01:32:38.220
Shlomo Sher: Because again right so again, if we go to to a game like this, where uh let’s say you’re going to put that suicide content warning right something like that.
987
01:32:39.810 –> 01:32:52.770
Shlomo Sher: Your audience in the one hand, right is just your general audience enjoying your story, and then the other hand, are people who are potentially triggered by suicide, the audience that just wants your story.
988
01:32:54.240 –> 01:32:58.950
Shlomo Sher: Any kind of content warning is going to mess them up.
989
01:32:59.040 –> 01:33:01.920
A Ashcraft: The audience well I know first off I don’t think that’s true.
990
01:33:02.880 –> 01:33:04.650
Shlomo Sher: Sorry, let me, let me revise that you’re.
991
01:33:04.650 –> 01:33:07.800
A Ashcraft: Right, I think that I think again, this is a creative decision.
992
01:33:08.730 –> 01:33:10.230
A Ashcraft: But how to word the warning.
993
01:33:11.580 –> 01:33:14.160
A Ashcraft: You know, you can create a content warning.
994
01:33:15.300 –> 01:33:17.310
A Ashcraft: That doesn’t give away plot points.
995
01:33:18.180 –> 01:33:18.450
Shlomo Sher: yeah.
996
01:33:18.480 –> 01:33:19.350
A Ashcraft: If that’s important.
997
01:33:19.620 –> 01:33:26.400
A Ashcraft: If that’s right but, but that has to be important to what you’re doing and how important an important thing for your audience.
998
01:33:29.460 –> 01:33:29.940
Shlomo Sher: sure.
999
01:33:30.360 –> 01:33:35.700
Shlomo Sher: And I don’t know if it’s not if it’s if plot points if if plot points aren’t important.
1000
01:33:36.060 –> 01:33:37.620
A Ashcraft: Then, give them all away.
1001
01:33:38.400 –> 01:33:42.450
Shlomo Sher: Sure sure no not right, so if.
1002
01:33:42.660 –> 01:33:50.490
A Ashcraft: If it’s more important to your audience to have these trigger warnings, then you know, give them trigger warnings if it’s more important to your audience to not have trigger warnings, then.
1003
01:33:53.190 –> 01:33:54.600
Shlomo Sher: You know, see what i’m saying I mean you.
1004
01:33:54.630 –> 01:34:03.690
Shlomo Sher: yeah either way you’re thinking either way you’re thinking about your audiences it’s just that this thing comes to a head in games like the ones we talked about where it is a central part.
1005
01:34:04.380 –> 01:34:11.100
Shlomo Sher: Right of the game and it’s harder and I think it’s just harder to do in those kind of situations, you know.
1006
01:34:11.130 –> 01:34:19.830
A Ashcraft: yeah I mean some some I mean sometimes the creative I mean I say oh it’s just a creative decision like it’s an easy thing to do, it’s not an easy right.
1007
01:34:20.880 –> 01:34:26.940
A Ashcraft: make decisions is not an easy thing to do, but it is, but it’s, the only way, you have to do it.
1008
01:34:28.620 –> 01:34:29.130
Shlomo Sher: All right.
1009
01:34:29.640 –> 01:34:31.530
A Ashcraft: Right I don’t take is there any other way.
1010
01:34:32.490 –> 01:34:34.260
Shlomo Sher: um well.
1011
01:34:35.520 –> 01:34:36.420
Shlomo Sher: Let me put it this way.
1012
01:34:37.650 –> 01:34:38.370
Shlomo Sher: uh.
1013
01:34:39.510 –> 01:34:58.050
Shlomo Sher: In a sense, all of these decisions are creative decisions right any of the system we’re going to make about the game as a creative decision right right we want them to be we can think about whether they’re going to be made on the, with the focus of the artists.
1014
01:34:59.190 –> 01:35:08.850
Shlomo Sher: You know desire of creating good story, or we can focus on whether they’re going to focus on more responsibilities or kindness, or whatever we talked about, or how they’re going to balance it.
1015
01:35:09.300 –> 01:35:16.380
Shlomo Sher: Right, and I think that’s kind of the, the issue here right my my initial response would be, I just want the artist to have their vision.
1016
01:35:16.890 –> 01:35:28.020
Shlomo Sher: But then I have this thought of way but aren’t there some responsibilities here, and then I want the whole kind of creative vision to kind of put those two things together and balance them in whatever way they think would.
1017
01:35:29.130 –> 01:35:33.360
Shlomo Sher: hold on to their creative vision well trying to as much as possible.
1018
01:35:34.680 –> 01:35:37.020
Shlomo Sher: Well, not undermining that too much.
1019
01:35:37.770 –> 01:35:39.030
Shlomo Sher: Show kindness or.
1020
01:35:39.030 –> 01:35:39.570
Shlomo Sher: responding.
1021
01:35:39.780 –> 01:35:41.700
A Ashcraft: I think the difference there is then.
1022
01:35:44.250 –> 01:35:50.310
A Ashcraft: Your creative one’s creative vision is not should not be more important than your audiences.
1023
01:35:51.690 –> 01:35:53.370
A Ashcraft: audiences experience.
1024
01:35:54.960 –> 01:36:02.460
A Ashcraft: And so, a good Creator, you know somebody who’s doing this well, in my opinion, so this is this is entirely a moral judgment on my part.
1025
01:36:02.640 –> 01:36:08.400
A Ashcraft: Okay, somebody who does this well does this seamlessly somebody who does it poorly.
1026
01:36:10.560 –> 01:36:20.130
A Ashcraft: Can you know, can make their vision, a thing, without caring what their audience thinks of better or or how they’re how they’re affected by it.
1027
01:36:20.820 –> 01:36:23.100
A Ashcraft: Or how they’re how the audience experiences.
1028
01:36:23.640 –> 01:36:27.390
A Ashcraft: and feel like they have they have satisfied their artistic vision.
1029
01:36:27.960 –> 01:36:29.220
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
1030
01:36:29.310 –> 01:36:31.140
A Ashcraft: at the expense of their audience.
1031
01:36:32.670 –> 01:36:35.190
Shlomo Sher: yeah I was, I was a I was.
1032
01:36:35.220 –> 01:36:36.660
A Ashcraft: I feel like that’s a failure.
1033
01:36:37.770 –> 01:36:44.100
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah I get I was, I was thinking of a silly a hood and you know talking about how ethics is part of ux.
1034
01:36:44.580 –> 01:36:44.940
Shlomo Sher: Right.
1035
01:36:45.060 –> 01:36:50.880
Shlomo Sher: If you’re thinking about the user experience right and you’re not thinking about ethics you’re leaving something out.
1036
01:36:51.150 –> 01:36:52.110
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
1037
01:36:52.890 –> 01:36:53.340
Shlomo Sher: So my.
1038
01:36:53.550 –> 01:37:01.620
A Ashcraft: My my creative vision should be woven tightly to the experience that I want my players to have.
1039
01:37:02.130 –> 01:37:05.160
A Ashcraft: yeah and that’s what i’m advocating for.
1040
01:37:06.480 –> 01:37:08.340
Shlomo Sher: All right, i’m with you then.
1041
01:37:09.570 –> 01:37:10.800
I thought I thought you were.
1042
01:37:12.870 –> 01:37:17.340
Shlomo Sher: um all right alright Andy it definitely looks like we’re not going to be.
1043
01:37:17.400 –> 01:37:19.110
A Ashcraft: Putting in a garden garden here.
1044
01:37:19.140 –> 01:37:22.530
A Ashcraft: or not a good third one, will have to come back and talk about.
1045
01:37:23.100 –> 01:37:24.330
Shlomo Sher: we’re going to do, part two.
1046
01:37:24.900 –> 01:37:25.290
A Ashcraft: All right.
1047
01:37:25.440 –> 01:37:33.000
Shlomo Sher: Right or or with my make this an entire thing on Castle culture will see a, but it will be the next episode good podcast.
1048
01:37:33.120 –> 01:37:34.140
A Ashcraft: Good GP.
1049
01:37:34.230 –> 01:37:36.540
Shlomo Sher: GP play nice everyone.
