[Release Date: October 12, 2021] How can you responsibly design a game about an ongoing tragedy like the corona-19 pandemic? How can you make ANY moral decision responsibly? In this episode we introduce a step-by-step approach to think through any ethical decision – using the creation of a game based on the corona pandemic as our example.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: So during the corona 19 pandemic that which we’ve been living through obviously there’s been lots of games about the corona 19 pandemic.
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Shlomo Sher: Have you looked at any of these.
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A Ashcraft: Well, you know you brought that that article to my attention about.
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A Ashcraft: That that I forgot I forgot her name but it’s a terrific article about sort of the ethical implications of making a game about the corner virus.
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A Ashcraft: and add and so since then i’ve been looking at some games and it’s sort of interesting you know there’s no I mean if you think about games is just another form of expression.
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A Ashcraft: Then no surprise there’s going to be a lot of games about the coronavirus because there’s been a lot of other kinds of expression, about the coronavirus right, I mean people have written extensively over this last year and a half, all kinds of think pieces about the current virus.
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A Ashcraft: And games, you know are another form of expression, so it didn’t surprise me much to find out that there are hundreds of them on steam, and probably elsewhere to probably on the apple store they’re probably a whole different set.
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A Ashcraft: On the on Google play there’s probably another set.
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Shlomo Sher: Hundreds of them.
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Shlomo Sher: Hundreds wow Okay, so I knew about like three or 400 okay so Kim can we quickly go over some of them.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah can can you go ahead and.
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A Ashcraft: So so sure, so they they they They range from very serious sort of simulation games.
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A Ashcraft: Where you know you’re actually you know simulating.
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A Ashcraft: The spread of the virus and you have the Agency, you have is the agency that a government might have to like what can we do when this government and you get to see and it’s and some of those are based on like real or unreal data.
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A Ashcraft: And they they’re they’re very again they’re very serious, so they show you their methodology, though, you can you can look into that and see how they’re how they’re creating their their simulation.
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Shlomo Sher: So that was.
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Shlomo Sher: The corona game.
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A Ashcraft: yeah that’s like the corona game.
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A Ashcraft: And that was you know, once you can play on the web it’s just a website, you can play it’s called corona game.
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and
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A Ashcraft: You know, and you can sort of see what you can do what would you do if you are running a government.
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A Ashcraft: And it tracks, you know the the the health of the population, but also there there, it also tracks, how much you’re spending and it also tracks sort of it estimates the the the happiness of the population, their their willingness to put up with whatever you’re doing.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and it’s interesting in in that game it specifically was made by a check development team.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right and and they were using check.
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A Ashcraft: Right and they were using data from the Czech Republic.
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Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Including I think data about how the pandemic was influencing the social stability and happiness of people, and you know which all that is so complicated to think about.
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A Ashcraft: And so.
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A Ashcraft: so complicated.
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Shlomo Sher: Different countries and the US, being a maybe even an outlier and how incredibly difficult, that would be but they’re trying to seriously and transparently do all that.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right.
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Shlomo Sher: And corona simulator also, I think, would fall into that.
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A Ashcraft: Right so there’s.
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Shlomo Sher: Another one I looked at in that one also, in this case you’re.
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Shlomo Sher: It seems like you’re in charge of the world, rather than in charge of a country.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, which is more complicated, but the same kind of the same kind of idea it’s very, very serious it’s a simulator.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right that’s right on the other end of the spectrum, you have games like virus Popper.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: And in virus Popper it seems to be sort of like swatting things out of the air a vr game where you’re squatting things out of the air and there so you’re you know, using household implements to to swat viruses, as they float toward you through the air.
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A Ashcraft: You know.
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A Ashcraft: hey another another another variant here there’s a.
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A Ashcraft: This, this is one of my favorite here corona samurai.
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Shlomo Sher: Is that kind of like fruit ninja.
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A Ashcraft: It is exactly like fruit ninja.
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Shlomo Sher: Except that you are you’re slicing.
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A Ashcraft: you’re slicing virus like blobs that that are floating at you.
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A Ashcraft: With your samurai swords and you’re throwing you’re throwing a ninja stars.
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A Ashcraft: At them in a distance.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, all right, this one’s for the kids.
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A Ashcraft: This you know for kids.
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yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: We do there’s just a wide variety there’s there’s there’s endless runners where you’re jumping over viruses.
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A Ashcraft: There, but then there are more slightly more serious things like there’s one called.
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A Ashcraft: it’s just called coronavirus and it is your it’s the first person pov you’re inside an apartment and you are.
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A Ashcraft: you’re living out your your coronavirus days you know you’ve got you’ve got a cat we’ve only got a kind of cat food and you’ve you have to like.
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A Ashcraft: go out and get stuff from the stores, or you know there’s you know it’s just sort of us another way of sort of simulating and talking about our experiences as we live through this.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah it’s you know, I was thinking, I think you have to go get toilet paper.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah you know, in the beginning of the pandemic but yeah it’s interesting right because you could have this.
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Shlomo Sher: huge range of games and you know, one of the potential things we talked about originally for an episode like this was to do one of our anti slumber, make a game.
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Shlomo Sher: Right or design the game episodes to do a game about the corona epidemic and it’s really kind of interesting at the range of kind of games, you can do, and the fact that you potentially could do games that are kind of focused on the psychology of living through it.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right as opposed to just beating it or what that means, because it looks like we’re never going to beat it.
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A Ashcraft: And I should also point out that some of these games came out as early as April last year.
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Shlomo Sher: As early as they I was thinking, I thought May was that.
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A Ashcraft: Was the earliest I there’s there’s there’s some with April dates on them.
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A Ashcraft: As they are right now right So these are games that were basically done or you know we’re we’re games that that just got rescanned to be corona virus see in some way.
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A Ashcraft: You know, like like who you know the the.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I mean.
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A Ashcraft: right they changed some artwork and then they put it out, but under a different name and.
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A Ashcraft: You know they had their they’re working on some other game that that use the same mechanics.
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Shlomo Sher: I figured, this is the case for a lot of a lot of these games.
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A Ashcraft: yeah and a lot of these Games are very, very simple games with very simple engines and so it’s not surprising that these could come out quite quickly.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay um you know, there is one game that came out early that coronavirus attack and I I tried to actually you know, find it on steam or.
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Shlomo Sher: You know or really find much about it, I read a review of on keen gamer that essentially said so this game comes out in May 2020.
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Shlomo Sher: So that’s what a couple months after things shut down so pretty early right, I was thinking very early and it’s essentially you know, according to Kim gamer got these racial undertones everything is very, very anti Chinese right.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s one of these political themes in it like free to bed and release she’s Yang.
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Shlomo Sher: And this is a time where right there is this kind of movement against you know against China and Chinese people.
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Shlomo Sher: At the same time, most of the reviews on steam were positive for it, so you know go go figure what was actually going on, but it really is interesting to to notice my immediate thought at the time was a wow number one this is so soon and you’re making your you’re blaming someone.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know.
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Shlomo Sher: so soon after this is happening, when we have still so little information and this game is divisive at a time where God, if there was any time we needed world unity right, this is a time for world unity, of course, you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, this is, this is not to say that we need world unity, you know, instead of the truth.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but still this this.
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A Ashcraft: This this game does not.
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A Ashcraft: Ring yeah this game is not trying to get at any sort of truth it’s just trying to make something fun.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe right or maybe it’s an activist game, or maybe it’s just expressing frustration, or you know, or maybe it’s maybe it’s just wants to be racist.
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Shlomo Sher: right again and i’m not saying it is because I, you know I haven’t played it I can’t I can’t find a trailer.
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Shlomo Sher: But it does lead to the question of you know, we have this tragedy.
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Shlomo Sher: And this is a huge huge tragedy and so it’s it’s a world changing event.
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A Ashcraft: People lost family members, I mean some people lost a lot of family members.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right i’ve had plenty of students this point that lost loved ones.
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Shlomo Sher: And you’re releasing something, of course, when anything this big happens, we want to say things about it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, we want to create experiences about it but.
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Shlomo Sher: there’s a bunch of risks here, so you know some of the risks and I thought we’d start kind of by talking about the risks and the positive potential or let’s do positive potential first, because to me like that part seems really, really great you know.
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A Ashcraft: yeah and and, in some ways it’s probably a little bit easier to talk about two right.
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A Ashcraft: it’s it’s there they seem a little bit more like obvious, you know that, on one hand it’s kind of like gallows humor right it’s a way for us to be working our way through the grief know we’re experiencing through Laughter
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Shlomo Sher: i’m sure you know it’s even as silly as whatever the samurai corona samurai.
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Shlomo Sher: Exactly.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re likely slicing through the corona I mean that’s ridiculous, but you know, and in some ways, like a way of a lot of these are ways of fighting back, which are not really fighting back, but at least gives us a sense of some sort of agency right in this or letting out frustration.
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hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: Or, I mean you know through all these simulations people can learn about the complexities of what governments need to go through.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: And right.
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Shlomo Sher: And by playing maybe empathy games of people who are let’s say stuck at home.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I found out yesterday that one of our friends have is essentially stuck at home for the last two years she’s immunocompromised and can’t get the vaccine and she literally doesn’t sound like she’s left her apartment for the last few years.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know.
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Shlomo Sher: To have an empathy game that kind of connects with that somehow right, like the one with the cat that you were talking about right that deck there’s a lot of potential positives here right.
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Shlomo Sher: So I think a lot of reasons for making a game like this at the same time right uh as far as the risk go right, certainly with the simulations maybe maybe you’re miss educating the public.
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Shlomo Sher: Right about how things will maybe you’re you know the audience is going to be seeing a very, very old simplified picture and be upset and frustrated at why can’t we do this, I mean I just did this, I just played corona simulator and I solved it in 15 minutes.
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A Ashcraft: We.
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Shlomo Sher: had our stupid Government do it.
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A Ashcraft: Right right, but so so interestingly, like that game that game, particularly.
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A Ashcraft: There were moments in that game that you didn’t have any any control over and I thought that those were the most interesting moments, because they were they were, and they were all moments were.
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A Ashcraft: Anti vaccine, they were their anti vaccine sentiment.
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A Ashcraft: Right so we’re like they were popping up period they were periodically moments that would be moments of anti vaccine sentiment would come up.
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Shlomo Sher: You try to run a PR campaign to get people vaccinated right.
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Shlomo Sher: And when you know luck, of the draw it doesn’t work anti vaccine, you know anti vax people conspiracy theories right kind of win the day there, and you know, and I thought that was great because you know you’re making the right move, but the reality is more complicated than that.
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A Ashcraft: Right right and then and I also thought that the the this the the synopsis at the end when they sort of at the end of the when you get to the end of the simulation which was summer of 2021.
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A Ashcraft: They they basically write up you know here’s here’s how much money you’ve spent as compared to the check budget, you know I ended up spending almost two thirds of of one year’s budget.
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A Ashcraft: You know, over over the course of two years.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right right because you can essentially spend money to keep the people happy.
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A Ashcraft: Right right right, you can basically subsidize you know, like like the US did for for many years, they subsidize people’s people’s employment.
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A Ashcraft: You can subsidize services.
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Shlomo Sher: All that stuff right but, by the way, so this is this isn’t corona simulated, this is the quran again.
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A Ashcraft: This is the chronic game right right.
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Shlomo Sher: And, and another thing to really like about it, so you know that you get to kind of get this big picture at the end and see how things fit together, I also really like their transparency about how it is that they’re coming up with everything.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah here’s our math and it wasn’t like a 100% transparent because I mean.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t know if you really want to give exactly here’s the specific formulas we’re using but they give a lot of information about what they were trying to do, and they had a disclaimer about essentially this isn’t realistic realistic realistic, this is the best we could do.
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A Ashcraft: Right right they you know they had a disclaimer saying you know, this is, of course, simplified there, there are many, many, many, many more factors that would go into the reality of this that we were just not able to incorporate.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and again notice right, this is to essentially alleviate the risk of.
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Shlomo Sher: This potential for miss education that anything about the real world can can have right where you’re educating someone.
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Shlomo Sher: And so I was thinking you know, in terms of just broad concerns dividing the population, creating fear.
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Shlomo Sher: and frustration with the government, maybe, helping to create social stability in some way.
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Shlomo Sher: Of course, this was a in the beginning of pandemic when the Chinese Government banned plaguing.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: which was popular in China right.
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Shlomo Sher: Just because it was about pandemics.
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Shlomo Sher: Right it didn’t want it, I think the idea was it didn’t want it scaring.
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Shlomo Sher: The public, of course, it was still in the rest of the world and.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you know it’s not like the rest of the world panic, you know and some.
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Shlomo Sher: right away.
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A Ashcraft: And then, but the end the Chinese Government is is very wary of anything that the population might use as a way of communicating any sort of dis satisfaction with the government.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right um so yeah in plague Inc you get, I think, to you, I mean you’re fighting you’re fighting a pandemic right so maybe you’re questioning what the government is doing right compared to what you’re doing.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so I thought we take this and essentially.
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Shlomo Sher: i’ve been looking for an episode, where we could.
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Shlomo Sher: Do something that I do my classes i’ve done this for years.
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Shlomo Sher: So essentially back in got I don’t know 2008 maybe I was working at the usc Marshall school to school business and.
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Shlomo Sher: I was coming up with a kind of a games or simulations for teaching business ethics and I wanted to do something on on thick at the time was marketing.
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and
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Shlomo Sher: You know, normally, and as we do in most of our episodes right we just present questions for thought right.
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Shlomo Sher: And that’s the way it kind of i’m used to working right they’re all open ended, but the Business School wanted something more like actionable right they said look our students want to know.
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Shlomo Sher: They want to step by step here’s how you make like an ethical decision, and as a philosopher i’m like we.
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Shlomo Sher: don’t do that.
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A Ashcraft: So we had to do that.
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A Ashcraft: So you kind of do I mean.
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Shlomo Sher: You we kind of do right so utilitarianism has like let’s say.
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Shlomo Sher: A specific process but typically we and in the realm of applied ethics, which is kind of what we do in this show we kind of take ethics and we apply them to practical problems typically you way things you kind of way different reasons.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but the Business School wanted this so I got together with Paul Adler, who was a professor of management really great guy and we came up with what we call the ABC.
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Shlomo Sher: Decision making model ethical decision making model okay and i’ve been using it, I used it with my business students with my medical students and I use it now with my with my game design students.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so.
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A Ashcraft: cute are you have you published this because it sounds like something that would.
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A Ashcraft: For certain certain market would be huge.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t know if it’s in my it’s in my.
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Shlomo Sher: attendance in your book.
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A Ashcraft: it’s in your book.
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Shlomo Sher: My book so whenever you know, whenever that gets published.
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A Ashcraft: so soon soon.
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So.
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Shlomo Sher: uh So the idea with all this, so when we do it let’s sit with my game design students is.
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Shlomo Sher: When you do need to make an ethical choice, how do you do it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and, most of us really don’t know how to begin so.
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A Ashcraft: Real here, I can tell you how I would think about doing it.
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A Ashcraft: And I would I would I would lean heavily I would go back and think heavily about my core values.
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A Ashcraft: Like what.
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A Ashcraft: And and use those as a lens for for the for the decision right.
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Shlomo Sher: Like and notice that makes sense, but you think about what are the things you care about.
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Shlomo Sher: what’s important to you how do you maintain your integrity by living up to our values by you know, creating something that matches your gardens.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah but um you know.
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A Ashcraft: Which is different, is that different than the way.
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A Ashcraft: The Near ABC.
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A Ashcraft: yeah okay.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah it’s interesting because i’m fascinated now do to find a different way.
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Shlomo Sher: What if your values is, I want to make a shit ton of money.
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Shlomo Sher: And Fuck everybody else and.
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A Ashcraft: yeah just makes the decision easy.
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A Ashcraft: i’m totally racist I gave.
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Shlomo Sher: to reflect that.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so here’s essentially the the way the way we do it and I thought we’d kind of you know we we’d walk step by step, through this by thinking about how would we make like a coronavirus game and we’re not going to design the game we’re just going to preliminarily think through it.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay okay sounds great so.
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A Ashcraft: This is this is gonna be fascinating.
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Shlomo Sher: cool so So the first step is essentially like like any smart decision you want to gather the relevant facts.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay hey you don’t want to make you know it’s a response and notice that the whole idea here is you’re making a responsible ethical decision.
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Shlomo Sher: Right okay uh there may be different options here and there will be different options here and different people might choose different options, but the idea is, if you go to this process you’re being responsible that.
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A Ashcraft: Right okay.
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Shlomo Sher: So what are the relevant facts that we need to consider when it comes to making the game about the corona pandemic.
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hmm.
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A Ashcraft: Well, you would you you go to the various stakeholders.
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A Ashcraft: In which case it’s gonna be a lot of race.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so before we get to and we’ll talk about the stakeholders, but.
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A Ashcraft: I mean, I would go I would go to them first to find out where I needed to find out the relative and relevant information.
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Shlomo Sher: um sometimes I go back and forth.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay right so very often I found that usually starting with facts and having the facts help you identify the stakeholders.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, tense.
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A Ashcraft: tends to be more productive tends to work a little bit better okay.
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Shlomo Sher: cuz you’re going to need I mean you’re going to need your for the first part for awareness you’re going to need your relevant facts you’re going to need your stakeholders you’re going to need the stakes that those stakeholders have.
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Shlomo Sher: Raw and you’re going to need to think about your obligations and people’s rights.
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Shlomo Sher: And that will be like a general awareness and then options.
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Shlomo Sher: be kind of our last one there before we move on to the next part.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so someone I think about relevant facts would be something like.
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Shlomo Sher: You know the number of people that have so far died.
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Right.
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Shlomo Sher: The fact that this has been.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, a.
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Shlomo Sher: traumatic worldwide event that is still ongoing.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I know.
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Shlomo Sher: That it’s still ongoing, is obviously very, very important.
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A Ashcraft: yeah absolutely right.
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Shlomo Sher: The fact that we still don’t know exactly how it started and that there’s certainly a lot of controversy about how it started along with conspiracy theories about how it started.
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A Ashcraft: Yes, although.
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A Ashcraft: If we don’t know do it do we.
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A Ashcraft: How much weight, do you put on things that you don’t know.
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A Ashcraft: and honestly don’t really matter.
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Shlomo Sher: Because if they don’t matter none, if you don’t know but it matters that you don’t know then it’s relevant.
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A Ashcraft: If it matters to some people, but you can look at it and go well, those people are.
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Shlomo Sher: Potentially.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you know so so look at the.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, look at all the conspiracy theories about people who believe, like this came out of a lab in Busan.
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A Ashcraft: Right or right.
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Shlomo Sher: The Chinese people who have been told that this came out of a lab in the US.
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Shlomo Sher: Right or the Russians, people who have who believe that this came out of a lab in Russia.
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Shlomo Sher: Right now.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you might say, love those people don’t matter right because that’s just crazy bullshit.
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Shlomo Sher: That Those are just conspiracy theories, but if enough of them believe it I I would think that you want to at least take it into the context so let’s say your game might not want to let’s say have a conspiracy theory within it that.
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Shlomo Sher: With them and validate them.
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A Ashcraft: Right right.
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Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Besides that, right the I think it’s important to kind of think about the current controversies.
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Shlomo Sher: For example, the idea of whether master be mandatory.
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Shlomo Sher: The question of.
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Shlomo Sher: Long term is there really a solution, the fact that there’s an Anti vaccine movement oh all those kinds of things, I think, would go into kind of you know, relevant facts.
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yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, did I miss anything that you think would would go into.
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A Ashcraft: yeah like.
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A Ashcraft: Like the the.
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A Ashcraft: The the the.
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A Ashcraft: what’s the word i’m looking for the the sort of how.
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A Ashcraft: The confidence that the scientists scientific community have about what they know about the coronavirus.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so you know because because that that community is you know it’s science, so of course everybody has their their theories and then theories get backed up by.
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A Ashcraft: By experiment and by data and and either become become fact or or become working theories, and so there was a lot of time during the during the first you know, six months of this that it was all working theory.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and sudden let’s say growing confidence, and you know, even today, as you know, i’m waiting for you know the vaccines to be eventually approved, for you know kids under 12 for my son.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right we you know there’s a question how much how confident, can they be right.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, what is the current scientific consensus right so yeah I mean the changing ideas of scientific consensus for very solution that seems like an important fact.
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Shlomo Sher: They also another one is.
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Shlomo Sher: The.
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Shlomo Sher: The global inequality in terms of economic inequality.
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Shlomo Sher: Right is a really, really big deal here.
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A Ashcraft: yeah.
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A Ashcraft: or even even within the nation right the inequality of in in accessibility of of of health services in some places.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah and I I think right the that that really works as well right and globally it’s just much more pronounced.
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A Ashcraft: And the American south.
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A Ashcraft: it’s you know they’ve been they’ve been struggling to keep hospital staffed for 20 years and I didn’t realize this until until the until I was reading about these things in you know, through the lens of what’s happening now with covered.
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A Ashcraft: But actually been having a hard time keeping nursing staff up.
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A Ashcraft: For 20 years now they’ve had it’s been a like a Mississippi and Alabama that is huge problem.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and and you okay let’s.
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A Ashcraft: get to the second sorry you say, if you compare you know you can compare the the.
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A Ashcraft: The right like like so so Cup, but that that that feeds directly into you know available beds.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right which is an important, which is a very important thing to understand.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so available beds, has been a big deal but also this idea of how much can you government really do for you.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and it’s interesting a lot of these games kind of assume you have the same amount of power as a global manager over you know, Sudan, as you would over you know Germany.
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Shlomo Sher: Right when the reality is so so different I mean yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: This pandemic is going and another relevant fact is, this is a global pandemic with mutating strains that as long as any part of the world has has hotspots are going to mutate fast and affect the rest of the world.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right to some degree right and part again right so Okay, so this will be at the relevant facts.
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A Ashcraft: And yep.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, then, then we got our stakeholders and stakeholders we’re making a game where we are the game studio right who might be affected by by our game.
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A Ashcraft: Oh right sure i’m.
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A Ashcraft: Right in that, and part of that depends on on who our game is for so we have to start thinking about our market.
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A Ashcraft: A like if we if.
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A Ashcraft: If, for example, we’re making a game for kids, then we have to, we have to think about their parents.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and.
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A Ashcraft: So we you know with with children’s games, you have a you have a different way of you have there’s a lot of different ways, you have to think about about you know how things are presented the stakeholders of.
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A Ashcraft: The people who are care caregivers for their children.
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Shlomo Sher: right though it’s interesting in this case, I would say that unusually virtually you have to think of people’s families, not just the player, but also their families, because whatever the players walking away from.
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Shlomo Sher: Giving that our families are connected to each other and our first point of contact and.
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A Ashcraft: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: The chances of US affecting our family members, when it comes to the virus, it seems like a particularly big deal here, so I will say the player and and the family, you know are both stakeholders, I would add to that you know your local community.
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Shlomo Sher: Know depending on if the game, you know if the game is serious enough to you know, to get you to impact the communities some way.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, maybe your nation if if we extended that for.
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Shlomo Sher: That game studio is always a itself a stakeholder.
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A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean you’re you’re investing time and money in it, you got people with jobs on the line.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right your your investors.
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Shlomo Sher: Right your investors right if if assuming you have investors.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right Okay, so all of these are going to be are going to be stakeholders right potentially we could extended within might say, you know doctors.
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Shlomo Sher: Or you know patients or we might say, we might do specific things like people who have had family members die from corona right might be a kind of specific stakeholder to consider.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: Right right.
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Shlomo Sher: And then, for each of these will kind of look at So what are the stakes right, what do they have at stake right so for the game studios it’s pretty easy right you essentially have your reputation and money at stake.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know jobs for your for your employees, you know the you know for the investors that right it’s there it’s there it’s their money.
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Shlomo Sher: For the players.
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Shlomo Sher: You get things like having a good time learning something new.
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Shlomo Sher: Right uh becoming misinformed about something.
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Shlomo Sher: Right spreading missing, you know well, spreading misinformation might impact the larger Community maybe that’s not exactly the stakeholder.
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A Ashcraft: Although I think there’s probably a stakeholder in and the people who are communicating information about the.
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A Ashcraft: about the coven and you know the scientific information and people who are actually trying to do outreach and trying to provide the correct information or a kind of stakeholder that you want to think about.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure, though.
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A Ashcraft: I might you might even need to be get them involved.
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A Ashcraft: directly in your in in you know, let them.
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A Ashcraft: Let them.
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A Ashcraft: provide feedback and contacts for the for the material that you’re creating.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s an interesting idea, though notice it might depend on what kind of game we’re making.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, because if we’re making like you know sad covert samurai right we don’t need to do that right.
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Shlomo Sher: But if we’re making a.
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Shlomo Sher: game that is an empathy game simulating what it’s like to be locked in you know raise your you know immunocompromised then something like that right bite.
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A Ashcraft: My yeah because you want to get the you want to get those details right so that.
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A Ashcraft: People who you are being that you’re trying to empathize with actually relate to it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: Even the even the sillier games like there’s the one where it’s basically a tower Defense game set in a in a in a supermarket.
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A Ashcraft: You know you’re using you’re using cleansing products and things like that to defeat the the coronavirus creeps as they’re marching in on you, you want to make sure that you’re actually using the right.
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A Ashcraft: cleaning products.
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Shlomo Sher: Or that cleaning products actually make a difference.
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Shlomo Sher: Because right if.
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Shlomo Sher: If corona just transfers to you know, through the air rather than through surfaces you’re creating misinformation.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right about that right, and you know some of the things that we’re doing you know.
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Shlomo Sher: There are some things that people are doing with coronavirus just because it makes other people feel safe, even though it doesn’t do anything.
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Shlomo Sher: And in itself could create potential misinformation so Okay, so we got our so you know we think about the stakes of let’s say people who lost family members.
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Shlomo Sher: hmm right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right their psychological health right to be dramatically impacted by by this, especially if it’s a silly game and you’re making fun of something that literally was life and death for you know incredibly tragic for for them.
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Shlomo Sher: there’s a again any kind of division, for if we’re looking at society as a stakeholder.
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Shlomo Sher: I you essentially causing social friction in some way.
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Shlomo Sher: How is that going to affect society, what a society have at stake here, where society could have essentially stability at stake right social relationship could be at stake right families can be.
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Shlomo Sher: Either united, or you know split apart by by this kind of stuff.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so and, of course, maybe the biggest steak of all potentially is.
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Shlomo Sher: More people could get coven or not get coven.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: So you started, but I mean some of that is really sort of tertiary to what we’re doing we’re just making a game.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and though you know and again notice we haven’t thought yet about even what kind of game.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right and that part really matters if you’re going to make a game, like the corona game where you’re creating a simulation maybe that simulation really could affect the way people the way people Act, the way people vote, the number of people dying.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right kind of policies being supported, I can say, especially if a game like that gets really popular.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, but again if you’re making thrown a samurai you know that’s not going to be an issue.
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A Ashcraft: Right unless, and I mean it in some ways.
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A Ashcraft: The more flippant you are about it, the more likely, you are to create friction in your family.
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Shlomo Sher: And life.
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A Ashcraft: by people who are like.
375
00:36:51.060 –> 00:36:56.340
A Ashcraft: You know people who want you to be much more serious about about the way that you think about.
376
00:36:57.480 –> 00:37:00.780
A Ashcraft: The people who have died, and there are other family members who have died or whatever.
377
00:37:01.830 –> 00:37:04.500
Shlomo Sher: presuming that there’s people you family that take it seriously.
378
00:37:04.830 –> 00:37:06.270
A Ashcraft: Right right, I mean.
379
00:37:06.540 –> 00:37:07.500
A Ashcraft: We don’t know right.
380
00:37:07.890 –> 00:37:17.100
Shlomo Sher: Right, and this is right and and it’s interesting because the more seriously you take it and people you family are really flippant about it that has the potential for social friction to.
381
00:37:17.490 –> 00:37:21.060
Shlomo Sher: yeah and social friction might not be the most important steak.
382
00:37:21.690 –> 00:37:22.440
A Ashcraft: Right right right.
383
00:37:22.620 –> 00:37:24.690
A Ashcraft: I mean, I think it’s quite small honestly.
384
00:37:26.670 –> 00:37:28.350
Shlomo Sher: I don’t I think it’s really big.
385
00:37:28.440 –> 00:37:29.220
Shlomo Sher: yeah but.
386
00:37:29.340 –> 00:37:32.250
Shlomo Sher: uh it might not be as big as people’s lives.
387
00:37:32.460 –> 00:37:35.250
A Ashcraft: Right, we have not I don’t know that we’ve ever seen a game.
388
00:37:37.170 –> 00:37:42.090
A Ashcraft: Historically, any game create enough social friction to matter.
389
00:37:43.590 –> 00:37:46.560
Shlomo Sher: um yeah though at the same time.
390
00:37:46.650 –> 00:37:47.010
Shlomo Sher: Oh, we.
391
00:37:47.040 –> 00:37:47.940
A Ashcraft: lost your audio.
392
00:37:50.100 –> 00:37:52.050
Shlomo Sher: You can’t hear me I haven’t.
393
00:37:52.200 –> 00:37:52.830
Shlomo Sher: had anything.
394
00:37:55.350 –> 00:37:55.890
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
395
00:37:56.940 –> 00:38:00.330
Shlomo Sher: This is a break I literally haven’t changed anything.
396
00:38:03.300 –> 00:38:03.720
Shlomo Sher: same as.
397
00:38:04.410 –> 00:38:05.370
A Ashcraft: It was mine problem.
398
00:38:05.910 –> 00:38:15.450
Shlomo Sher: Okay fix it there, we go okay so so let’s move on to the next part right, so we kind of looked at these sticks, the next part is any rights or obligations.
399
00:38:15.870 –> 00:38:16.560
Shlomo Sher: involved here.
400
00:38:16.650 –> 00:38:34.410
Shlomo Sher: Right, so we can you know typically I kind of have them do per stakeholder so let him we start with the game studios right game studios have a right to make you know they have a right to make a game that would essentially express their creativity, make the money right.
401
00:38:34.440 –> 00:38:34.650
No.
402
00:38:35.910 –> 00:38:44.370
Shlomo Sher: it’s not a complete total right that outweighs every other potential right but very these are these are these are rights that that they generally have.
403
00:38:44.640 –> 00:38:47.820
Shlomo Sher: Right right players generally have a right to play games.
404
00:38:48.030 –> 00:38:51.420
Shlomo Sher: Right um but then we get into kind of a.
405
00:38:53.190 –> 00:39:05.880
Shlomo Sher: I don’t know if there’s any of the rights here it’s it’s interesting like the society have a right not to have someone spread misinformation, for example, i’m I.
406
00:39:06.510 –> 00:39:20.940
A Ashcraft: mean yes to us to to a certain degree, yes, it depends on how on on on on how you present the information there are there are there, I mean we’re talking we’re talking about rights we’re talking about legal legal stuff right.
407
00:39:21.150 –> 00:39:22.470
Shlomo Sher: No moral rights.
408
00:39:22.680 –> 00:39:23.910
A Ashcraft: moral rights more and more.
409
00:39:23.910 –> 00:39:27.480
A Ashcraft: Moral moral rights absolutely have a right to correct information.
410
00:39:28.350 –> 00:39:31.170
Shlomo Sher: Well, I you know I I don’t know if I would kind of put.
411
00:39:31.170 –> 00:39:37.680
A Ashcraft: I have, I have, I have the right to say whatever I want, but you have the right to correct information and that’s and and.
412
00:39:38.910 –> 00:39:42.180
A Ashcraft: And that’s why there is any conflict at all on this right.
413
00:39:42.420 –> 00:39:43.410
A Ashcraft: whoa that’s.
414
00:39:44.010 –> 00:39:45.960
A Ashcraft: Those are those are rights that are in conflict.
415
00:39:46.200 –> 00:40:02.340
Shlomo Sher: If I have a right, you have the obligation to uh to essentially respect by right, which means you can’t say what you want to say if it is misinformation right so that’s that’s that’s the way that would work right.
416
00:40:02.370 –> 00:40:12.420
Shlomo Sher: Okay, I I prefer to kind of think about it and I don’t know if it’s really different there’s something about I don’t like this, I don’t really like this idea of you have the right to.
417
00:40:13.290 –> 00:40:24.660
Shlomo Sher: i’ve been I would say you have a right to correct information from the government or from you know responsible sources but I prefer thinking about it, at least as as the game designer.
418
00:40:24.990 –> 00:40:34.170
Shlomo Sher: hmm you, you have the obligation not to knowingly or negligently misinformed or miss educate your audience.
419
00:40:34.290 –> 00:40:43.590
Shlomo Sher: Sure, right now, mind you again, if we go to samurai coven you know you don’t you know you’re not really worried about.
420
00:40:44.910 –> 00:40:47.940
A Ashcraft: Our audience i’m not trying to inform my audience of anything.
421
00:40:48.360 –> 00:40:49.200
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
422
00:40:49.230 –> 00:40:51.090
Shlomo Sher: Right, but if you’re but if you’re doing that.
423
00:40:51.810 –> 00:40:56.040
Shlomo Sher: corona corona attack or whatever yeah click run a virus attack.
424
00:40:56.250 –> 00:40:59.430
Shlomo Sher: notice it’s even attack might mean that this is.
425
00:40:59.820 –> 00:41:03.990
Shlomo Sher: You know if you’re suggesting that the Chinese orchestrated, this is an attack.
426
00:41:04.470 –> 00:41:04.980
A Ashcraft: Right right.
427
00:41:05.160 –> 00:41:09.330
Shlomo Sher: Right there’s another one that’s like coronavirus zombie attack.
428
00:41:09.600 –> 00:41:12.900
Shlomo Sher: Right, but again right we don’t need to worry about that one.
429
00:41:13.650 –> 00:41:23.370
Shlomo Sher: Right, but this idea of having an obligation not to knowingly misinformed or negatively, and again the negligence part is going to be important right.
430
00:41:23.910 –> 00:41:37.890
Shlomo Sher: If you are essentially if you’re like yeah I didn’t do the research I don’t know I just put some information out there right um I would say you’re you’re being negligent you should really know that this could misinform people and lead lead to problems.
431
00:41:37.920 –> 00:41:46.920
A Ashcraft: Right, but I mean, but the ultimate goal, the ultimate like, if you take that to its to its ultimate point anytime that you make a game about anything that’s real.
432
00:41:48.360 –> 00:41:51.810
A Ashcraft: You you have this you’re what you’re saying is, you would have this obligation.
433
00:41:52.260 –> 00:41:54.930
A Ashcraft: You do you even if you’re making.
434
00:41:55.050 –> 00:41:55.890
samurai.
435
00:41:56.940 –> 00:41:59.610
A Ashcraft: You know mute mute and virus samurai.
436
00:42:00.390 –> 00:42:09.360
Shlomo Sher: Absolutely yeah it’s it’s just that in the samurai game you’re like yeah yeah no one’s going to take this seriously right right, the more seriously someone I mean.
437
00:42:09.780 –> 00:42:15.870
Shlomo Sher: You know, and this is part of the the whole I mean these things are meant for usually not always but let’s say usually meant for fun.
438
00:42:16.320 –> 00:42:22.080
Shlomo Sher: And if you’re doing fun, in a context where you’re not worried about people really taking you literally, this is not an obligation, you need to.
439
00:42:22.080 –> 00:42:24.900
Shlomo Sher: worry about, but it really is still an obligation, you have.
440
00:42:25.380 –> 00:42:25.680
A Ashcraft: Right.
441
00:42:25.710 –> 00:42:38.670
Shlomo Sher: Okay, all right um you might say that you’re not you have an obligation, so that to me seems like the big one, but maybe also an obligation not to create unfounded fears.
442
00:42:39.480 –> 00:42:51.960
Shlomo Sher: In people, maybe an obligation or responsibility to be sensitive to the fact that millions of people have lost family members.
443
00:42:52.050 –> 00:42:53.850
Shlomo Sher: hmm and.
444
00:42:53.880 –> 00:42:57.900
A Ashcraft: What would that what would that mean to Howard how How would.
445
00:42:59.430 –> 00:43:02.160
A Ashcraft: You have an obligation to be sensitive, but what is that.
446
00:43:03.150 –> 00:43:07.140
Shlomo Sher: uh let’s say not to make light of you know of those deaths, maybe.
447
00:43:07.260 –> 00:43:16.620
Shlomo Sher: huh uh not to make not to make those deaths trivial yeah I don’t know exactly I think it’s a good question you know when we talked about six days in Fallujah.
448
00:43:16.980 –> 00:43:23.880
Shlomo Sher: Right, this is kind of one of those things where you want to be respectful to the people who lost like let’s say you know love two months.
449
00:43:25.320 –> 00:43:30.030
Shlomo Sher: What it means to be respectful I think is a potentially complicated question.
450
00:43:30.210 –> 00:43:30.780
A Ashcraft: That may be.
451
00:43:30.870 –> 00:43:34.200
Shlomo Sher: Very context you know context specific.
452
00:43:34.560 –> 00:43:35.640
A Ashcraft: yeah yeah.
453
00:43:36.210 –> 00:43:39.480
Shlomo Sher: But certainly like making fun of the people that died.
454
00:43:39.840 –> 00:43:40.860
A Ashcraft: More right right where would.
455
00:43:40.860 –> 00:43:44.850
Shlomo Sher: be the kind of thing would be like way you know you’re not really supposed to do that.
456
00:43:45.030 –> 00:43:48.840
A Ashcraft: you’re not know punching down let’s not let’s let’s don’t punch down.
457
00:43:48.930 –> 00:43:49.410
Shlomo Sher: don’t but.
458
00:43:49.470 –> 00:43:50.610
A Ashcraft: there’s always punch up.
459
00:43:51.000 –> 00:43:54.750
Shlomo Sher: And you know don’t create, we have a responsibility not to create harm.
460
00:43:55.320 –> 00:44:06.000
Shlomo Sher: Right right, I mean unless you know there’s no unnecessary harm being created right, and I would say the same for anything that is let’s say intentionally socially device.
461
00:44:06.270 –> 00:44:16.470
Shlomo Sher: or something right you’re you’re just creating harm in this in the sense for no particular reason okay so let’s say you know, this is obviously an incomplete list of all the stuff.
462
00:44:16.920 –> 00:44:26.610
Shlomo Sher: um let’s say now we’ve got our so at this point, we got the facts, we got our stakeholders, we get the stakes, and the stakes are also the potential consequences right.
463
00:44:27.510 –> 00:44:38.370
Shlomo Sher: We got our rights and and responsibilities rights and obligations, the fifth step is options right, because every ethical decision is an ethical decision between different options.
464
00:44:38.430 –> 00:44:41.670
A Ashcraft: Sure right, even if it’s dude do nothing or do the thing.
465
00:44:41.820 –> 00:44:42.750
A Ashcraft: it’s an option.
466
00:44:42.840 –> 00:44:43.800
A Ashcraft: Right right just.
467
00:44:43.830 –> 00:44:53.850
Shlomo Sher: Those two and one of the things about deciding about options is a lot of times people make the mistakes and maybe this is the most common mistake which is either we do it, or we don’t.
468
00:44:54.450 –> 00:45:11.340
Shlomo Sher: and almost always there are other alternatives right almost always there’s other options to consider right um so in this case right our options would run the gamut of don’t do it again.
469
00:45:11.400 –> 00:45:12.510
Shlomo Sher: Right so right.
470
00:45:12.810 –> 00:45:14.040
Shlomo Sher: don’t make a different game.
471
00:45:14.460 –> 00:45:29.130
Shlomo Sher: make a different game, all together, right or make a game let’s say about a pandemic, but avoid covert right or make let’s say one of several different types of games, you know, a again notice.
472
00:45:30.840 –> 00:45:36.300
Shlomo Sher: Usually when when we do this it’s more specific than simply making a game.
473
00:45:36.630 –> 00:45:47.070
Shlomo Sher: huh, but in this case, you know we can once we’ve got this Notice already we’ve got this kind of setup that really helps us come up with ideas of.
474
00:45:47.220 –> 00:45:48.330
Shlomo Sher: What we want right away.
475
00:45:48.540 –> 00:45:48.990
Shlomo Sher: Right what.
476
00:45:49.680 –> 00:45:50.460
Shlomo Sher: We want to do.
477
00:45:50.550 –> 00:46:04.710
A Ashcraft: So let’s assume that the premise of this is that we’re going to make a game about coven we’ve been asked to we’ve been paid to we’ve agreed to do a game about coven now, we just need to figure out what kind of game, it is.
478
00:46:05.220 –> 00:46:15.000
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so so let’s at this point kind of you know at this point let’s say in our options we might we might restrict ourselves to are we going to try to make a serious game, or just a silly game.
479
00:46:15.150 –> 00:46:24.780
Shlomo Sher: Right right a notice that would be kind of easy one, and let’s proceed with the let’s say we’re going to make a serious game, because otherwise these things don’t matter very much.
480
00:46:24.870 –> 00:46:32.040
Shlomo Sher: Right Okay, so we restricting our options already so and again that’s just going to be silly and fun and means we’re going to try to take the series.
481
00:46:32.850 –> 00:46:41.880
Shlomo Sher: Right, so we would then come up with several options right several ways to do that, so one might be let’s say you know the kind of simulation game.
482
00:46:42.660 –> 00:46:49.920
Shlomo Sher: Right and if we come up and again we would probably want to at this point, I think this would be if I was really doing this.
483
00:46:50.340 –> 00:46:59.220
Shlomo Sher: I think at this point I would before proceeding to options I would get to the point where I would say okay now more specifically what kind of game, do we want to make.
484
00:46:59.490 –> 00:47:05.640
A Ashcraft: Right right what kind of what What do we want to achieve with this with this game what’s what’s our high level goals.
485
00:47:05.850 –> 00:47:06.780
A Ashcraft: Sure yeah.
486
00:47:06.810 –> 00:47:21.930
Shlomo Sher: Right and then you know, like let’s say if what we wanted, is for people to understand the complexity of government decisions right, then, if that’s our gold and probably we’re going to go towards some sort of simulation games.
487
00:47:22.290 –> 00:47:25.290
Shlomo Sher: But not necessarily maybe there’s a narrative driven game.
488
00:47:25.350 –> 00:47:25.920
A Ashcraft: That might.
489
00:47:26.220 –> 00:47:39.900
Shlomo Sher: You know, so we could talk about that right those could be options right, and if we wanted people to let’s say understand the psychology of you know I I I talked to a IDA.
490
00:47:41.100 –> 00:47:54.150
Shlomo Sher: You know, one of my best friends, is a doctor, and you know, last week, like you know he lost he had a woman would coven he’s a critical care pulmonary physician, so he deals with COPD patients all like.
491
00:47:54.750 –> 00:47:55.380
A Ashcraft: all the time.
492
00:47:55.440 –> 00:47:56.130
Shlomo Sher: all the time.
493
00:47:56.400 –> 00:48:09.510
Shlomo Sher: yeah he had a woman come in about 30 who came in pregnant, who gave birth to a child that died from coven and then the next day or two days later, died from covert herself.
494
00:48:10.860 –> 00:48:12.870
Shlomo Sher: And you know, he was just he was.
495
00:48:13.020 –> 00:48:14.460
A Ashcraft: You know, and you know sad.
496
00:48:14.670 –> 00:48:28.920
Shlomo Sher: He was just the you know, he was crying it was just it was you know it was so hard, and you know it’s so hard to lose and he was telling me how incredibly incredibly hard this pandemic has been on the nurses and doctors dealing.
497
00:48:28.950 –> 00:48:29.490
A Ashcraft: yeah right.
498
00:48:29.730 –> 00:48:42.810
Shlomo Sher: And how they’re they’re paying triple pay to nurses, because the stress, they just can’t handle the stress so notice right One possibility would be the psychological exploring the psychological burden of healthcare workers right.
499
00:48:43.260 –> 00:48:47.640
Shlomo Sher: or exploring the you know what it is to be an immuno compromised person.
500
00:48:47.940 –> 00:48:52.980
Shlomo Sher: And you know in this kind of situation or right, so we have a bunch of options right.
501
00:48:54.090 –> 00:48:59.160
Shlomo Sher: We choose one which which one of these, would you like to kind of go.
502
00:48:59.670 –> 00:49:05.670
A Ashcraft: You know i’m I I i’m always drawn to the ones that are the hardest so.
503
00:49:05.730 –> 00:49:10.230
A Ashcraft: I know, exploring the psychological life of have a nurse at a hospital.
504
00:49:10.710 –> 00:49:11.910
Shlomo Sher: Okay, I.
505
00:49:11.940 –> 00:49:14.760
A Ashcraft: Would would would be a huge challenge.
506
00:49:14.820 –> 00:49:19.080
A Ashcraft: But what an interesting What an interesting challenge to dig into.
507
00:49:20.280 –> 00:49:24.540
Shlomo Sher: yeah and notice right if we were to do that we’d probably go back and revise.
508
00:49:24.750 –> 00:49:27.180
A Ashcraft: Some of our stakeholders yeah for sure.
509
00:49:27.210 –> 00:49:27.510
Shlomo Sher: We.
510
00:49:27.810 –> 00:49:30.090
Shlomo Sher: We would add more relevant facts to this.
511
00:49:30.240 –> 00:49:32.250
Shlomo Sher: Right, the facts that are specific.
512
00:49:32.250 –> 00:49:44.820
Shlomo Sher: To nurses and you know in hospitals, as far as far as that goes, and you know, as I said, these are kind of things where you kind of can go back and forth, especially during this awareness part.
513
00:49:45.930 –> 00:49:50.280
Shlomo Sher: It might be that this is the kind of decision you would make in the beginning, and then do this kind of.
514
00:49:50.820 –> 00:49:59.010
Shlomo Sher: Step by step framework or it might be that you do the step by step framework, and then you kind of see where things are and then you’re like okay.
515
00:49:59.910 –> 00:50:15.270
Shlomo Sher: You know, interesting things to do with what I need to think about here’s a bunch of them and here’s what I want to work with like let’s say working on a nurse based game now let’s go back and see is there is there anything we missed that’s going to be relevant.
516
00:50:15.600 –> 00:50:23.670
Shlomo Sher: Right we’re going to need to get some statistics about this we’re going to need to do some some research on it to talk about the burnout rate and all that kind of stuff.
517
00:50:23.940 –> 00:50:24.600
Shlomo Sher: that’s right now.
518
00:50:24.720 –> 00:50:27.660
Shlomo Sher: What nurses specifically do different types of nurses.
519
00:50:27.690 –> 00:50:33.270
A Ashcraft: Right, we should probably talk to talk to some nurses try to like get some actual firsthand.
520
00:50:34.560 –> 00:50:35.820
A Ashcraft: You know, information about.
521
00:50:35.820 –> 00:50:41.220
Shlomo Sher: And first hand information firsthand stories right, you know.
522
00:50:42.570 –> 00:50:50.160
Shlomo Sher: Again, think if there’s any kind of special obligations was possibilities we have, because now we’re talking specifically about nurses.
523
00:50:50.400 –> 00:51:01.290
Shlomo Sher: yeah right and not just nurses, but hospital workers period, you know, he was talking to the security guard was crying or the nurses are crying the security guard is you know consoling them right.
524
00:51:02.760 –> 00:51:17.220
Shlomo Sher: Okay, then we think about kind of our options right, so how can we make a game about you know about how about a nurse right and we don’t need to think about these specific options, right here, right.
525
00:51:18.360 –> 00:51:24.870
Shlomo Sher: But notice right a presuming we’re going to make a narrative driven game it doesn’t have to be right.
526
00:51:24.990 –> 00:51:30.900
Shlomo Sher: Again, we can make a simulation where you’re managing a hospital and you’re dealing with this burnout rate.
527
00:51:31.170 –> 00:51:33.450
A Ashcraft: Right right, although I mean.
528
00:51:34.500 –> 00:51:44.370
A Ashcraft: Even if you’re making a simulation game, you still think about narrative yeah I mean even that one we talked about the the the corona corona game.
529
00:51:45.810 –> 00:51:46.980
Shlomo Sher: it’s a storyline.
530
00:51:47.100 –> 00:51:51.270
A Ashcraft: It has a storyline and has and has events that happened at specific moments.
531
00:51:53.490 –> 00:51:59.970
A Ashcraft: So so yeah so you still have to think about like well what what is the story that we’re telling even in a.
532
00:52:00.990 –> 00:52:02.670
A Ashcraft: In a simulation game.
533
00:52:03.090 –> 00:52:07.530
Shlomo Sher: Right and and you know it’s interesting right so.
534
00:52:08.640 –> 00:52:18.990
Shlomo Sher: How personal we’re going to make it versus you know versus simulation might also involve how deeply we’ll get into the story and.
535
00:52:20.700 –> 00:52:30.300
Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting like my giving how many simulation games, there are out there and giving what we want to get to so you know, so we think about our you know let’s say we have these two options already.
536
00:52:30.660 –> 00:52:41.220
Shlomo Sher: Right uh you know, make a simulation game that works on this make a you know, a narrative driven game where you play a let’s say a.
537
00:52:42.480 –> 00:52:48.510
Shlomo Sher: nurse manager or nurse administrator or you know I forgot what they call the senior nurses right.
538
00:52:48.540 –> 00:52:50.790
Shlomo Sher: Right or or maybe a hospital administrator.
539
00:52:51.060 –> 00:52:52.830
Shlomo Sher: kneeling you know dealing with.
540
00:52:53.850 –> 00:52:56.070
Shlomo Sher: With the icu wing of the hospital.
541
00:52:56.400 –> 00:53:01.080
Shlomo Sher: right because you’re not just dealing with nurses you’re also dealing with family members.
542
00:53:01.410 –> 00:53:04.890
Shlomo Sher: yeah right you’re dealing with the patient’s themselves.
543
00:53:05.100 –> 00:53:15.570
Shlomo Sher: Right, you know certain Okay, now we got let’s say so you can be that or you can be the nurse we let’s say we’ve got these three options, plus the option of let’s not make this game at all.
544
00:53:16.500 –> 00:53:18.330
A Ashcraft: Right let’s do something else.
545
00:53:18.480 –> 00:53:21.900
Shlomo Sher: Right right, so this gives us four options right.
546
00:53:23.280 –> 00:53:25.710
Shlomo Sher: And now the next thing is essentially.
547
00:53:27.030 –> 00:53:33.480
Shlomo Sher: You look at the adoption at for each option essentially how’s it going to affect us the stakeholders.
548
00:53:33.690 –> 00:53:37.350
Shlomo Sher: Right, how does it deal with the responsibilities that we have.
549
00:53:37.860 –> 00:53:38.340
Right.
550
00:53:40.200 –> 00:53:49.890
Shlomo Sher: To to each of the you know to each of the stakeholders involved and, once you kind of got that down right you really can have a notice of systematic, this is all right.
551
00:53:49.950 –> 00:53:52.350
A Ashcraft: yeah you can really have a good snapshot.
552
00:53:52.740 –> 00:54:05.160
Shlomo Sher: Of what you’re getting with each one and how responsible with is and maybe of what you would also need to do to make it more responsible to kind of fit in fitted in with what you want to achieve.
553
00:54:05.490 –> 00:54:11.970
Shlomo Sher: ran, then the next step is a number step six is essentially balance which is.
554
00:54:13.350 –> 00:54:18.330
Shlomo Sher: you’re essentially you ask yourself, which is the, which is the best option.
555
00:54:18.720 –> 00:54:32.310
Shlomo Sher: Right and that’s a process of reasoning and one of the nice things about it is you’ve already got the ideas about the impact that this option would have on different stakeholders right and and meeting your responsibilities.
556
00:54:32.610 –> 00:54:36.300
Shlomo Sher: Right, so you can so you’re comparing you already have things to compare.
557
00:54:36.720 –> 00:54:37.620
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
558
00:54:37.650 –> 00:54:40.620
A Ashcraft: Right so in in in game development.
559
00:54:41.970 –> 00:54:48.750
A Ashcraft: Those of you who are listening about and thinking about where do, how does this where did Where does this happen during the game development process.
560
00:54:50.160 –> 00:54:57.840
A Ashcraft: I would say that this happens at them early early in the process when you’re when you’re first creating your your your.
561
00:54:58.530 –> 00:55:14.130
A Ashcraft: Your touchstone document like this is what this game is going to be, this is what this game is going to be about this is what we’re trying to achieve with this game, all of these things are the these This is all worth you would need to do, ahead of creating that touchdown document.
562
00:55:14.580 –> 00:55:24.060
A Ashcraft: yeah we’re in the process of creating the touchstone document you might be this might be an iterative process just creating the touchdown document where you’re like all right, I think this is what the touchstone is let’s.
563
00:55:24.360 –> 00:55:29.190
A Ashcraft: let’s let’s do the work and find out whether this is what we actually want it to be.
564
00:55:30.510 –> 00:55:30.810
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
565
00:55:32.190 –> 00:55:37.230
Shlomo Sher: So that’s step six right you’ve come to a conclusion about which one is the best.
566
00:55:38.250 –> 00:55:42.030
Shlomo Sher: After looking at all this stuff but we normally add a step, seven and eight.
567
00:55:42.510 –> 00:55:48.300
Shlomo Sher: Oh, and essentially coming to a conclusion is often not enough.
568
00:55:49.320 –> 00:55:54.870
Shlomo Sher: This is partly because you know I come to this from the world of business ethics originally.
569
00:55:54.870 –> 00:55:57.300
Shlomo Sher: and medical ethics after that.
570
00:55:57.750 –> 00:56:02.190
Shlomo Sher: Where it’s one thing to think about doing the right thing it’s another thing to actually.
571
00:56:02.700 –> 00:56:04.710
Shlomo Sher: You know, convince people to do the right thing.
572
00:56:05.070 –> 00:56:08.430
Shlomo Sher: Right right, so you know acting heart is not.
573
00:56:08.520 –> 00:56:09.630
Shlomo Sher: Easy right so.
574
00:56:09.660 –> 00:56:20.940
Shlomo Sher: Right, a part the the third part of this step, seven, eight, as essentially courage so strategies for So the first thing is identifying potential obstacles.
575
00:56:22.110 –> 00:56:31.830
Shlomo Sher: That could stand in your way right, for example, you want to do this in a way that you think is responsible, but you think your investors are going to say, well, no, this will make us more money.
576
00:56:32.520 –> 00:56:35.910
Shlomo Sher: Right, what do you know that’s that’s an obstacle.
577
00:56:36.180 –> 00:56:38.430
Shlomo Sher: To you right essentially doing what you think is ethical.
578
00:56:38.700 –> 00:56:41.340
Shlomo Sher: Sure, or you want to.
579
00:56:41.460 –> 00:56:48.360
Shlomo Sher: You want to not miss inform the public, but you know you’re not really sure yourself with the right information is.
580
00:56:48.510 –> 00:56:50.250
Shlomo Sher: yeah right that’s an obstacle.
581
00:56:50.550 –> 00:56:51.270
Shlomo Sher: yeah right.
582
00:56:51.420 –> 00:56:53.010
A Ashcraft: yeah we’re at least a risk.
583
00:56:54.090 –> 00:56:55.110
Shlomo Sher: Or at least the risk.
584
00:56:55.140 –> 00:57:00.270
Shlomo Sher: But if we want to do it right right, you know I mean they’re all risk of some sense.
585
00:57:00.420 –> 00:57:10.950
A Ashcraft: Right so interestingly, when I worked at Th que te HQ is process included for the producers of a game to create a risk assessment document.
586
00:57:11.520 –> 00:57:14.370
A Ashcraft: And i’ve never seen it done anywhere else, and I think it was a great idea.
587
00:57:15.900 –> 00:57:24.450
A Ashcraft: Where they list off every possible risk that might happen from the mundane to the to the theoretical.
588
00:57:25.080 –> 00:57:27.300
A Ashcraft: Okay, to the conceptual right.
589
00:57:27.690 –> 00:57:29.640
A Ashcraft: Right right and then.
590
00:57:30.780 –> 00:57:32.610
A Ashcraft: And then steps that they would do.
591
00:57:33.630 –> 00:57:42.780
A Ashcraft: If this risk can, if this risk came up if this became a if this if this ended up being a problem, what would what steps would you take to to ameliorate the risk.
592
00:57:44.340 –> 00:57:51.930
Shlomo Sher: yeah and that’s that’s pretty much very much this idea and notice right in business that makes anytime you have a business right.
593
00:57:52.350 –> 00:57:59.220
Shlomo Sher: And you’ve got some sort of strategy for for doing something you want to be aware of these things, and you want to have a plan right yeah.
594
00:57:59.430 –> 00:58:02.940
Shlomo Sher: Sure just step eight right step bait is essentially having a plan.
595
00:58:02.940 –> 00:58:06.060
Shlomo Sher: Okay right having a strategy for dealing with these things.
596
00:58:06.210 –> 00:58:10.980
A Ashcraft: So the risk assessment and then the and then here’s what we would do in case this comes to pass.
597
00:58:11.850 –> 00:58:13.290
Shlomo Sher: Right right right.
598
00:58:14.370 –> 00:58:24.180
Shlomo Sher: You know very commonly more commonly in the situations that my students have them is a situation where you have to sell this to your bosses.
599
00:58:24.870 –> 00:58:28.470
Shlomo Sher: Right right or you have to sell this to the team right.
600
00:58:28.530 –> 00:58:38.430
Shlomo Sher: Right, as you kind of thought this out So how are you going to do that right, you want to you don’t just want to present it for you know cuz ethics doesn’t mean anything if you can’t get it off the it still means something but.
601
00:58:39.000 –> 00:58:41.760
Shlomo Sher: You can’t actually act on it, it means so much less.
602
00:58:42.000 –> 00:58:47.040
Shlomo Sher: that’s right, so you want successful action, and that means having that risk assessment and.
603
00:58:47.910 –> 00:58:49.860
Shlomo Sher: Looking at potential obstacles and planning for them.
604
00:58:50.130 –> 00:58:59.910
A Ashcraft: that’s right so presumably your team and your boss have probably been involved in this in this all the way through, so you probably don’t have to worry too much about them.
605
00:59:00.510 –> 00:59:11.760
A Ashcraft: As they’ve been involved in that you have you have kept them involved in the in the process of creating this this this initial document this initial touchdown document.
606
00:59:12.150 –> 00:59:27.330
Shlomo Sher: Maybe you know it depends, it depends what depends how you’re doing or maybe this is just you you’ve been you’ve been asked to do a game yeah right, and you have some claims about this game, and you decide, you know i’m going to sit down and kind of think this out.
607
00:59:27.570 –> 00:59:30.810
Shlomo Sher: yeah right and you spend a half hour like like we have or.
608
00:59:30.870 –> 00:59:43.290
Shlomo Sher: You know, you probably do a little bit you know, hopefully more because you get more specifics right and you spend, you know that time kind of focusing on it and then you’re ready to kind of communicate that too.
609
00:59:43.590 –> 00:59:43.860
A Ashcraft: yeah.
610
00:59:44.400 –> 00:59:46.740
Shlomo Sher: yeah so it can go on in a bunch of different ways.
611
00:59:47.700 –> 00:59:48.300
Shlomo Sher: So um.
612
00:59:48.360 –> 00:59:51.480
A Ashcraft: So, going back to that so so to wrap it up, then.
613
00:59:53.640 –> 00:59:57.870
A Ashcraft: Going back to these games about corona the coronavirus games.
614
00:59:58.980 –> 01:00:02.250
A Ashcraft: How many of them do you think went through some process like this.
615
01:00:04.470 –> 01:00:07.650
Shlomo Sher: I don’t know certainly a step by step process like this might.
616
01:00:07.920 –> 01:00:08.430
Shlomo Sher: be none.
617
01:00:08.910 –> 01:00:10.920
Shlomo Sher: Okay uh you know.
618
01:00:10.980 –> 01:00:14.520
A Ashcraft: They might have their own processes for similar decisions.
619
01:00:14.610 –> 01:00:16.650
Shlomo Sher: You know I think certainly.
620
01:00:16.680 –> 01:00:19.440
A Ashcraft: You simulation game probably more so than.
621
01:00:19.530 –> 01:00:22.890
Shlomo Sher: You know, yes, I think the simulation game essentially.
622
01:00:23.010 –> 01:00:31.530
Shlomo Sher: They, at least with the the two I looked at, they definitely thought of you know, one of them donates part of the profits to.
623
01:00:31.650 –> 01:00:41.430
Shlomo Sher: write the World Health Organization another one, you know that this idea of transparency and telling the people that were just isn’t realistic and.
624
01:00:42.570 –> 01:00:45.360
Shlomo Sher: This is the best we can do, given the information we have.
625
01:00:45.540 –> 01:00:49.740
Shlomo Sher: I think all those are kind of conscious attempt to take responsibility.
626
01:00:50.190 –> 01:00:51.870
Shlomo Sher: hmm but.
627
01:00:53.160 –> 01:01:00.930
Shlomo Sher: I would say, overall, the smartest thing to do would be to go through a step by step process, just like with everything else right anytime you want to make a smart.
628
01:01:01.590 –> 01:01:16.440
Shlomo Sher: Business decision you would go to a step by step process a systematic process to make sure you’re not leaving things out, and I think the same would be in this trying to make a good ethical decision and again this idea of and just to go kind of through it again right.
629
01:01:17.700 –> 01:01:24.960
Shlomo Sher: Get the relevant facts right figure out the stakes, the stakeholders who’s going to be impacted and stakes, how could they be impacted.
630
01:01:25.230 –> 01:01:36.870
Shlomo Sher: Think about what are the rights that the people involved have or entities involved have, what are the responsibilities right involved here, what are your options.
631
01:01:37.050 –> 01:01:40.170
Shlomo Sher: hmm which of those options is the best.
632
01:01:40.470 –> 01:01:45.090
Shlomo Sher: Right and and why and that why and you should be able to articulate very clearly why.
633
01:01:45.360 –> 01:01:49.140
Shlomo Sher: And best always means better than the other options good.
634
01:01:50.610 –> 01:02:08.670
Shlomo Sher: What are potential obstacles to executing this well and what are your strategies for your for doing this and you can think that through any ethical decision about about anything at all and go up do the right thing and do it in a way that’s actually effective.
635
01:02:09.120 –> 01:02:12.570
A Ashcraft: Right and so, so I think in in closing.
636
01:02:14.010 –> 01:02:25.110
A Ashcraft: I think we can say that it’s not it’s not unethical, to make a game about a tragedy, even if it’s on even if you’re making it in the middle of the tragedy.
637
01:02:25.590 –> 01:02:35.280
A Ashcraft: it’s just a matter of how you go about handling it and and being sensitive to all of these things and being sensitive to all the people that that are stakeholders and all the ways that you might harm them.
638
01:02:35.880 –> 01:02:44.520
Shlomo Sher: I wouldn’t say that’s the point that I would be making but I agree with you Okay, I think there’s nothing we can’t make a game about.
639
01:02:44.910 –> 01:02:49.740
Shlomo Sher: Great but that something’s can be much, much harder to make games about than others, especially.
640
01:02:50.220 –> 01:02:51.150
A Ashcraft: games oh yeah.
641
01:02:51.510 –> 01:02:52.080
Shlomo Sher: sure this.
642
01:02:52.350 –> 01:03:05.400
Shlomo Sher: This is where we talked about you know six days and palooza right quite a bit and a process like this can be incredibly helpful in thinking those kinds of things through.
643
01:03:05.700 –> 01:03:08.700
Shlomo Sher: Right um okay that’s it Andy.
644
01:03:09.060 –> 01:03:10.530
A Ashcraft: Good good podcasts.
645
01:03:10.620 –> 01:03:14.130
Shlomo Sher: haha GP PLAY nice everybody.
