[Release Date: November 9, 2021] John Gibson, the (now former) CEO of Tripwire Games tweeted an opinion about a newly enacted and unpopular Texas law. The Gaming Goat released images of their fishing game-themed game that showed a frog that looked like it was communicating symbols of white power. Both complain that they then became targets of “cancel culture” in gaming. What is cancel culture and were these people treated wrongly in anyway?
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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A Ashcraft: So this is a continuation of our news and bits episode from a couple of weeks ago and we didn’t get to cover all the topics that we wanted to talk about it.
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A Ashcraft: But but we’ll we’ll finish up now so here’s here’s the the one I want to talk about and that’s cancel culture.
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A Ashcraft: and early September john gibson, who is now the the former CEO of tripwire interactive video game company developer.
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A Ashcraft: He tweeted an opinion about a newly enacted and very unpopular Texas law, he made a public comment about a controversial political issue.
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A Ashcraft: It of course blows up on the Internet as that’s what the Internet is for right things can blow up.
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A Ashcraft: Some people on his team quit some of their business partners make statements, saying that they would no longer be working with trip wire.
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A Ashcraft: After a few days, he steps down from a CEO position and tripwire distances their company from his private opinions in his defenders are claiming that he has been the victim of cancel culture.
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A Ashcraft: This has made people very sad may think that it’s very sad that people can be cancelled this way there’s a youtuber and I can put a link in the in the in and in our forums and stuff about this very, very sad youtubers docs talks about this.
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A Ashcraft: It should be noted, the both gibson and tripwire are fine neither one will go bankrupt without the other there they’re doing just fine so So what are the ethics of this why, how is it is it okay for people to take their business elsewhere or political reasons.
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Shlomo Sher: um any before you get there, I.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah I thought there’s also this other case.
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Shlomo Sher: And I thought it might be interesting to talk about them together.
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Shlomo Sher: Because I think they kind of reflect differently on an analysis shoe.
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Shlomo Sher: Because of the differences between them so.
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Shlomo Sher: Right in this one when when we’re talking about the unpopular Texas law, of course, unpopular, would you know I think would be among our demographic you know i’m not sure how unpopular, it is across the US, but this is of course the abortion law.
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A Ashcraft: Right, but I don’t want to talk about the specifics of the law, because then we get in the weeds of the specifics of the log what the lead.
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A Ashcraft: or bad or should be yeah.
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A Ashcraft: So I don’t want to get in I don’t want to get into the weeds of the law itself right, I just want to talk about the reaction to the this guy’s action.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but I think it relates also to to to the topic that, and this is why I want to compare this also to.
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Shlomo Sher: To the other case that we’re talking about.
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A Ashcraft: Okay yeah all right so yeah Let me describe the the other, the other one too so within a day or two of tripwires problems there’s a kickstarter campaign.
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A Ashcraft: That started for a fishing themed card game, one of the images showed is a realistically rendered frog with the frogs right hand clearly visible with a stomach forefinger making this sort of peace symbol.
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A Ashcraft: Which for anybody doesn’t know there’s a cartoon frog named pepe who has been picked up and use by white supremacists as as sort of a symbol of white supremacy.
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A Ashcraft: And also white supremacy is use hand gestures representing the w and P of of white power so so between the two things what’s this frog realistically rendered frog doesn’t look like pay.
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A Ashcraft: But it’s a frog and it’s doing it’s doing half of this white power thing people called out this apparent symbolism for the to the to the creators of the fishing game and the creators.
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A Ashcraft: pushed back very strongly, saying that they didn’t intend to make something that reminded anyone of white supremacy and and they ridiculed the people who thought so it this blows up on the Internet, also.
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A Ashcraft: Some of the game is publishing partners about a stop working with them the creator of the kickstarter belt that they’re the victims of canceled culture, one of them says he is so disgusted the may quit the industry all together.
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A Ashcraft: So it should be noted here also that the kickstarter is doing fine they’re not going to not publish the game.
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A Ashcraft: In some ways, you could argue that the that the publicity probably got them more more views.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah In fact I think that’s exactly what happened, I think, essentially, they got this they got this criticism, they said, you know we’re being cancelled and lots and lots of people in reaction to that essentially gave them money.
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A Ashcraft: Right right, you know.
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A Ashcraft: Whether or not they they gave the money because they’re being cancelled or because they just happened to now see the kickstarter and go oh that looks like a good game.
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A Ashcraft: I will, I will back this game and I and the Kenya that and I believe I believe that the creators did not intend it to be a white power.
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A Ashcraft: You know they didn’t they didn’t intend the symbolism, but their reaction to it was so strong and so and so like negative.
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A Ashcraft: reaction to it, instead of just saying oh my gosh.
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A Ashcraft: You know, we didn’t realize here, let us change the illustration, which wouldn’t have taken very much to do right.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: This change yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: And and and it seems that you know if you look at the image right, for you know, for their frog I mean it’s not just that his fingers look like they’re doing a P, but I mean the image that they use for the rulebook like literally looks like the hand signs for both at wns T.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I know.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah I mean, at least, I mean, mind you okay it’s a frog and it has three fingers so.
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A Ashcraft: super easy right I don’t I don’t think they intended it.
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A Ashcraft: And and honestly at this point there you know, on one hand, are they being cancelled at all.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so that itself is a question.
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A Ashcraft: Right, and you know I don’t I don’t believe so, I don’t believe that they are being cancelled.
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A Ashcraft: I believe that people raised.
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A Ashcraft: You know, a concern, and then they had this very, very negative reaction and now and that’s what that’s what blew up on the Internet.
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Shlomo Sher: That they treated the concern as so so ridiculous.
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A Ashcraft: yeah.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right that’s right they didn’t take the concern seriously.
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A Ashcraft: Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: So, so we have these these two cases and here’s here’s one of the reasons that I, I want to kind of say that there’s at least something that we need to consider that’s different about them.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, where the idea is, in this case with the with the frog right we have this situation where.
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Shlomo Sher: You know the issue itself is issue of you know, white power right.
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A Ashcraft: White supremacy.
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Shlomo Sher: Why white supremacy right i’m an issue that you know is let’s say.
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Shlomo Sher: accepted as beyond the pale right.
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Shlomo Sher: um whatever that means and.
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A Ashcraft: yeah but, honestly I don’t I don’t know.
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A Ashcraft: I honestly don’t know that that matters.
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Shlomo Sher: I think we could talk about whether that.
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A Ashcraft: Matters okay.
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Shlomo Sher: um you know versus let’s say you know, in the first one with a tripwire right versus a controversy about the support for a controversial law, which is the abortion law right where you know.
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Shlomo Sher: You know people have obviously.
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Shlomo Sher: defensible opinions about right.
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Shlomo Sher: or even though.
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A Ashcraft: People have very strong opinions about both of these things.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but at least to start off with, I think that you know.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s generally considered Okay, and when I say generally considered okay i’m gonna walk that back.
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A Ashcraft: Later, because.
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A Ashcraft: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: Like whatever is generally considered okay.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure ah that’s just whatever the public thinks that the moment.
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Shlomo Sher: I want to know if it really is okay.
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Shlomo Sher: But generally considered right, you know reasonable people can disagree and abortion, even though they might have strong opinions about it we’re not really at the point where we have you know reasonable people disagreeing about you know white supremacy and.
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A Ashcraft: Now, but I mean.
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A Ashcraft: what’s reasonable.
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A Ashcraft: And i’m not.
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A Ashcraft: i’m not going to go out and defend white supremacy, but I will say that it is foundational to a lot of Western culture, and you know and any challenge to that is going to be pushed.
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A Ashcraft: back by a lot of very reasonable people.
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Shlomo Sher: um, I guess, first of all I think that’s what what you mean by what ends up being meant by by white supremacy.
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Shlomo Sher: But I think I think there are kind of ways to devise to divide issues like this to some degree, for example.
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Shlomo Sher: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: If your position is based on things that are.
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Shlomo Sher: That are empirically false like let’s say ideas about genetic supremacy of one race right or the basic abilities of one race or you know we we don’t we can go back to phrenology the 19th century, the analogy of black people skulls and how that shows that the less intelligent.
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A Ashcraft: So notice right.
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Shlomo Sher: If your ideas are just based on.
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Shlomo Sher: Just straight up falsehoods right to me you’re not you should be treated very differently than if your ideas are based on.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s say value priorities.
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Shlomo Sher: which you might have an abortion or very controversial unclear.
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Shlomo Sher: starting points as you might have an abortion and and the act of canceling what we should talk about what canceling is.
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A Ashcraft: That.
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Shlomo Sher: would be different for one or the other but let’s let’s let’s get to that, then let’s let’s.
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A Ashcraft: yeah because I think I think we need to talk about like what.
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A Ashcraft: What what is being accused Okay, and who is doing the accusing.
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A Ashcraft: Fair we talked about canceling culture.
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A Ashcraft: So I think everybody would agree that if you don’t want to buy a product from a certain person, for whatever reason you don’t have to.
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A Ashcraft: Right, so if you don’t want to do business with the guy across the street, because he’s an asshole you don’t have to do you don’t have to do business with the guy across the street.
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A Ashcraft: Right, you can make whatever business decision you want or in regards to that right, so you know people deciding.
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A Ashcraft: So part of what Council culture is is this idea that.
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A Ashcraft: That we shouldn’t be allowed.
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A Ashcraft: To make business decisions based on someone’s politics or politics should be separate from our business decisions that there that there.
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A Ashcraft: That we shouldn’t bring politics into into our business decisions or into our you know our gaming environments, but of course it’s impossible right everything is political in some way or another you’re you’re supporting you’re supporting.
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A Ashcraft: You know, causes in almost everything that we do.
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Shlomo Sher: A in a in a in a sense, by the way, I want to go back to this idea that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: That you let’s say if you don’t want to do business with a with a guy across the street right so notice like it’s the question might be why you don’t want to do business with them.
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A Ashcraft: No, no.
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A Ashcraft: i’m saying is that it doesn’t matter.
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A Ashcraft: Like right you don’t want to you shouldn’t have to it and don’t shouldn’t matter what why that is.
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A Ashcraft: um.
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A Ashcraft: You know, you could not do business with him because you know he’s he’s he’s got red hair and you don’t like red hair you don’t have to do business with them.
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Shlomo Sher: Can I can I refuse to do business with him because he’s black or Jewish.
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A Ashcraft: Well, and in some cases, yes, and in some cases, no right there has been there there, of course, you know these groups of people that are have been protected.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: right but but notice this idea right, so we have this idea that.
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A Ashcraft: You can in fact.
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A Ashcraft: make that decision.
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Shlomo Sher: um well sure so there’s.
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Shlomo Sher: We have legal rights and more rights.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right and we have the the way we can practically behave right so let’s say legally the question would be are you interacting with this person in some sort of protected category right.
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Shlomo Sher: right if you decide let’s say that you as a customer don’t want to.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, buy a game, because the creator of the game has a different political view than you do, or has a different race, did you do.
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Shlomo Sher: huh right um you know I don’t think any laws there to stop you.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: Right so so let’s let’s take the bakery example right because we’re going to get there, we might as well just go there now.
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A Ashcraft: There was the bakery several years back, made a bunch of news because they did not want to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: As the business has an obligation as part of you know as as part of its license to when it opens its doors to the public and opens its doors to all of the public.
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A Ashcraft: And however, so they are then obliged to sell cake to whomever comes through the door now there are some restrictions, you know there were some limits to that of course if people are unruly or whatever they can kick them out.
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A Ashcraft: They but there, but you know.
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A Ashcraft: But in terms of like like like racial these protected categories.
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A Ashcraft: Those protected categories are protected in that in that way, however, if the reverse were true let’s say it’s a gay bakery.
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A Ashcraft: And you and you are having a wedding and you didn’t want to do business with that gay bakery you are not obliged to as a private citizen you’re not obliged to take your business any specific people because of their protective status.
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Shlomo Sher: right though it’s though it’s interesting again notice, we could be talking in in you know in about the gallery here.
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Shlomo Sher: Though to me it’s kind of interesting.
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A Ashcraft: We are talking about legality.
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Shlomo Sher: We are talking about legality, but the reality is also different in different places right and this might be, in fact, this might be different, even in the United States between California and Oklahoma you might have different.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, some specific that different laws about about stuff like this, so you know if you put this in the game context right, I can say you know i’m not going to sell my game to a group of people, based on let’s say their their sex right or the race.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right um I also can’t say that i’m going to hire only a certain group of people right based on their you know, race or sex.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and then you have things like the political viewpoints kind of fallen here.
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A Ashcraft: To right but and again, these are these are new laws.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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A Ashcraft: And, and certainly it was okay 2030 years ago to make these things, and nobody you know, to decide these things.
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A Ashcraft: And these are these are these are things that that are these are these are relatively new ideas.
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Shlomo Sher: So I think though they’re from the 70s.
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A Ashcraft: Sure 50 years ago, then right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: yeah so so modern.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right right this whole idea of being able to to make those decisions, right now, cancer culture is not that right because it’s not about legal stuff right, but it is about kind of the early related idea right, as do you have a kind of more right to a you know.
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Shlomo Sher: To essentially say.
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Shlomo Sher: This person is off limits and everybody should essentially.
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Shlomo Sher: treat this person, a certain way.
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Shlomo Sher: Because of their beliefs, essentially, or because of something that they said hey.
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Shlomo Sher: Is that right.
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A Ashcraft: Is that right right so.
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A Ashcraft: yeah so cancel called when somebody invokes the words cancelled culture what they’re trying to do is they’re trying to invoke this idea of an unruly mob right and nobody likes a mob nobody likes the pitchforks and torches to come out.
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A Ashcraft: And so that’s I think when people.
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A Ashcraft: say you know this is Council culture, you know it’s it’s people agitating it’s it’s some small percentage of people agitating for other people to not use their services not use they’re not going to be in business with them.
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A Ashcraft: disconnect from them, socially, etc.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah and and and that that makes sense, and we should say that cancer culture has been around for a very, very long time.
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A Ashcraft: Well yeah I mean it’s only been recently called cancel culture right.
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A Ashcraft: there’s the you know, there you can you can do a little research and find and and some other people have done this, or like they’ve gone back and tried to find the first moment.
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A Ashcraft: Of of when when this terminology came about because I think it’s I think the terminology is important right, this is this cancel culture is a thing by itself, we have been of course canceling people were all kinds of reasons for hundreds and thousands of years.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, this is the beginning of human civilization yeah we’ve been saying I did that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, some people are to uh to whatever in their views.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: Right right be shunned right.
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A Ashcraft: And so I want to, I want to.
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A Ashcraft: I want to not talk about that general idea and just talk about this this specific thing that we are now in in the in the last say 10 years calling canceled culture, maybe it’s not even that long.
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A Ashcraft: So, like the first one is the.
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A Ashcraft: Let me see.
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A Ashcraft: The first.
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A Ashcraft: Use of cancel culture added went back to I think to 2016 and to the Olympics, so there was a.
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A Ashcraft: A woman, let me see if I remember the story exactly do I still have it written up here.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I don’t I don’t remember the specifics of it, but it had to do with with a Olympic gymnast who had spoken out this was when the.
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A Ashcraft: That that coach or the the doctor who had who had mishandle a bunch of the female gem notice that, when that was.
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A Ashcraft: When that was starting to be breaking news in 2016 it continued to be news for a long time he had.
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A Ashcraft: You know, he had just because he had just gotten sentenced and a lot of the gymnast come out and say that you know he had you know, I was one of his victims, as well as I was one of the victims, as well, and one of these on one of these feminists just tweeted simply that women should be.
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A Ashcraft: We should be careful about how they dress and what they say and how they act.
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A Ashcraft: which, of course, you know the Internet jumped on.
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A Ashcraft: and her defender.
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A Ashcraft: quoted this can’t quoted Council culture and said hey hey people you know she’s you know, a teenage girl yes she’s a gymnast and she’s a public figure but she’s also a teenage girl, and she and you should give her a break.
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A Ashcraft: You know, give her some grace because nobody’s listening to her.
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A Ashcraft: Otherwise she’s a teenage black girl nobody’s listening to teenage black girls.
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A Ashcraft: let’s let’s take let’s let’s give let’s give the Council culture, a little break here, so those are like the first noted use of this, so I want to point out that strangely what happens with Council culture is it’s almost always invoked.
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A Ashcraft: when somebody gets in trouble.
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A Ashcraft: for presenting a an idea that upholds sort of the status quo.
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A Ashcraft: That, I think that that cancel like somebody somebody you know it in.
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A Ashcraft: Some some element of the status quo becomes controversial, as you know, as things change so whether it’s you know whether you’re talking about abortion where the talking about white supremacy.
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A Ashcraft: Whether you’re talking talking about.
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A Ashcraft: Conservative dress for women in conservative conservative sort of you know.
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A Ashcraft: Traditional traditional women’s roles when any of these sort of things starts to get challenged and people push back so somebody pushes back and and and makes an argument makes a statement that sounds like it’s too conservative.
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A Ashcraft: The you know the the the people who are challenging this the status quo jump in.
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A Ashcraft: And then there and then that the original posters defenders come in and say whoa whoa whoa cancel culture, this is Council culture.
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A Ashcraft: This should be stopped.
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A Ashcraft: So culture is bad, we shouldn’t do a Council we should be careful that we should.
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A Ashcraft: We should be careful about how we use Council culture, it is almost never used in the opposite way.
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Shlomo Sher: Well that’s interesting because as john gibson’s case kind of the opposite way.
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A Ashcraft: No, not at all.
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Shlomo Sher: The traditional kind of way of thinking about abortion is roe vs Wade right.
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A Ashcraft: No, not at all, not at all the traditional way of thinking about about abortion is that women shouldn’t have rights to their own bodies.
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Shlomo Sher: well.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, traditional.
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A Ashcraft: know, that is, that is, the status quo.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t I mean that hasn’t been the status quo in America for 50 years and i’m putting it in right to kind of to kind of show look, I mean.
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A Ashcraft: yeah you’re really stretching the idea of of status quo beliefs cultural beliefs, if you say that.
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A Ashcraft: i’m really stretching that.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean, this has been the law of the land for 50.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s been the law.
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A Ashcraft: And it has not, it has been it has not been.
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A Ashcraft: The culture.
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Shlomo Sher: It has been the majority opinion of Americans to support it, for, for most of the last 50 years.
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A Ashcraft: And yet it’s still a traditional, it is still.
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A Ashcraft: The the idea that women shouldn’t have rights to their own body is is is you know, an R and R and should be subjected to the laws that men that men write about them, and this is why I didn’t want to talk about abortion, by the way, all right, I didn’t want to get into this weeds so.
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Shlomo Sher: So.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re not okay fine, by the way, I could cut this part.
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A Ashcraft: No at least don’t.
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Shlomo Sher: Know um.
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Shlomo Sher: But yet to be part part of it is also the reason I put that in is because yeah it’s interesting if this is, if this is about tradition or if this is more about.
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Shlomo Sher: You know conceptually gibson bro values.
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A Ashcraft: Absolutely gibson believes that he is he is upholding a traditional value.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so okay.
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A Ashcraft: And he and value that has been in here, he and his people, people who believe, like he does have been pushing back on it, yes it’s been the law of the land for 50 years but they’ve been.
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A Ashcraft: pushing back on it for 50 years two.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: Because that’s what it was traditionally.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: So.
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You know.
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A Ashcraft: it’s a stretch.
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Shlomo Sher: stretch Okay, I thought I thought i’d go there and see and see how how that plays out.
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Shlomo Sher: Right good.
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Okay.
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A Ashcraft: conceding the point.
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Shlomo Sher: i’ll take yeah yeah yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: I got no problem sitting points.
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A Ashcraft: yeah so so you know so that brings us back to like what what can what is cancelled culture, then so cancelled culture seems to be.
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A Ashcraft: A defensive traditional values.
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A Ashcraft: against you know challenges to traditional values.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah I mean I yeah I, so I I don’t have a problem with that, of course, right what we’re talking about the specific name that this is just the title that we’re giving to a particular type of cancellation, you know I mean we can you know my favorite.
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Shlomo Sher: rabbit hole.
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A Ashcraft: But if people are invoking it, we should know what it means.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah.
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A Ashcraft: yeah you know, make sure that we all the world talking about the same thing and we all know what it actually means when we when when it gets invoked.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so we’re not talking about let’s say the dixie chicks you know getting you know when they protested Bush and the Iraq war in the mid 2000s getting absolutely you know their career destroyed at that point.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, I incident service lives.
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A Ashcraft: So, in some ways, we are afraid because.
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A Ashcraft: it’s because it’s literally exactly the same thing, it would just wasn’t called Council culture.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay well that’s that’s that’s why.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s what i’m that’s why.
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A Ashcraft: yeah yeah sure so and and absolutely nobody had you know any nobody defended them with this with this Defense nobody nobody invoked cancel culture as a defense of the dixie chicks.
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Shlomo Sher: right that they were just being cancelled because of their political opinions and people right should be allowed to have their own political opinions instead that was going against the prevailing conservative opinion is that we’re talking to a conservative audience.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: So and and everybody just accepted.
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That.
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A Ashcraft: That you know, there are there are repercussions for for public people to speak out, you know in you know, and if you’re if you’re a public person and you speak out on a controversial topic then you’re going to face consequences for that, from the public.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure, is john gibson a public person.
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A Ashcraft: Well that’s that so there’s an interesting question right he’s the CEO of this company is that does that make him public enough.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know, to me it really makes a difference, it really makes a difference, about what it means to be a CEO of a company and what kind of company we’re talking about right if Elon musk right so Elon musk let’s say right he is a publicly traded company.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah right but he’s this oversized personality, where it’s his company stockholders are invested in this company, knowing that his personality drives this company.
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A Ashcraft: knows what drives us.
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Shlomo Sher: Publicity what he does in his private life, definitely impacts, the sort of things that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: For for investors right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right is john gibson in a situation like this is is this, you know, is this company kind of big like this disease is the entitled to have a up to have a private opinion and express that private opinion or is or is all of us.
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A Ashcraft: To me, as if, once he expresses, it is a private opinion anymore.
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A Ashcraft: Right, so the public opinion.
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Shlomo Sher: To me, like everything Elon musk says, is no longer private opinion because he just made themselves so.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, he kind of made themselves so public.
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A Ashcraft: Right and I know and I sort of believe that that i’m sure Elon musk has a private life and but he he’s his public persona is so big and so.
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A Ashcraft: And so it just eclipses whatever private life, he has.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah maybe you know and To me it seems to me like he’s kind of made that choice in some way.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s a really hard choice to make these days, you know.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean i’m thinking more of like.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, do teachers, you know, have a private life when they post something on their personal Facebook page.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right and that’s something let’s say ends up being you know racist.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, was that.
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Shlomo Sher: Was that just a privately expressed opinion or not right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know.
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A Ashcraft: And, and you know Facebook has public and private options for for your posts.
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A Ashcraft: so that you can control that.
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Shlomo Sher: Oh, you can but that doesn’t matter right because teachers have lost their jobs because they’ve said something that was private on Facebook to their friends, but it got out.
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Shlomo Sher: ran right nda but, again, you have your controller, you have some control over that.
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Shlomo Sher: Some control but it’s very limited right so let’s say if this guy so let’s say this guy john gibson essentially it’s it’s not just I think it it doesn’t just matter what he expresses seo but also how he expresses it.
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A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, is the expressing it in the capacity of co op expressing it, as you know.
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Shlomo Sher: As as your behalf, is expressing isms.
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A Ashcraft: As a as a so when you’re talking about a private opinion you’re talking about i’m expressing this as a private citizen, not as not in my role as public my my public role as CEO or or, as you know.
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A Ashcraft: Olympic.
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A Ashcraft: Olympic gymnast or as a presidential candidate, or whatever happens to be.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so so let’s say he expresses this you know, and I think it’s also the way he expressed a what he said, I think, also kind of matters.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know so for me like you know here’s here’s what he wrote, he said, as an entertainer I don’t get political often yet with so many vocal peers, on the other side of the issue, I felt like it was important to go on record as a pro life game developer.
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A Ashcraft: Right and.
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Shlomo Sher: So you know I read them he’s acknowledging the politics of what he’s saying he’s aware of what he’s saying.
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Shlomo Sher: He said, you know put himself he’s a balancing influence he’s you know part of his what he’s saying here is a public statement from himself right it’s not meant to be private right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and, especially, you know.
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Shlomo Sher: he’s putting it in a fair context he’s not being disrespectful anyone he didn’t just kind of praise the issue and you know he he essentially.
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Shlomo Sher: To me, being very respectful about about what you know what is doing, I mean I.
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A Ashcraft: mean he’s he’s he’s.
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A Ashcraft: All he’s doing is expressing a public of political opinion.
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A Ashcraft: Right yeah and I don’t I don’t see him doing anything wrong, you know, in the sense of of that, I mean, I think that there you know and.
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A Ashcraft: And again, I don’t want to get into the weeds of the of the underlying issue but expressing your opinion about a political statement shouldn’t be shouldn’t be considered wrong but it might have consequences.
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A Ashcraft: there’s a lot of things that we do that are not right or wrong, and just have consequences.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure, but you know.
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Shlomo Sher: There are questions about whether the consequences are fair or not right, so if you’re going to look at the you know impact of what happens right.
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Shlomo Sher: Whether it called cancer, culture or not.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right uh let’s say is that negative impact fair well, maybe it’s fair if he did something wrong right and it’s unfair if he didn’t do anything wrong right So for me you can’t you can’t just joined those two things.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, that you know that the fairness of the reaction has to relate to whether he actually did something wrong, now that said.
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Shlomo Sher: You could also.
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Shlomo Sher: Take something that someone did wrong and react to it in a way that goes far beyond what is smart or compassionate.
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Shlomo Sher: To do in terms of punishment.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, even if he did something wrong let’s say you know there’s a question of why he did it in one context, he did, and what he really meant by it right.
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Shlomo Sher: So when I think about the is a tg.
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Shlomo Sher: With the with the frog game.
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A Ashcraft: I believe so yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: So tg with their frog right if, like day intelligent if they you know intentionally made that frog Okay, you know, a intentionally putting like a white power symbol and to gain.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I think it’s pretty fair you get like a reaction accidentally doing it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you know you right you shouldn’t be blamed in the same way.
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A Ashcraft: Right, but right and they weren’t initially right they were they were they literally, the people who who commented on it were commenting on it, because they assumed rightfully that these people didn’t know exactly what they were doing they hadn’t realized what they had done.
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Shlomo Sher: Right now Next comes the third question to me, which is what then negligent should they have realized this should have known this.
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A Ashcraft: and
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t really know I you know, like my guess is probably not.
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A Ashcraft: yeah and and honestly I you know if.
424
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A Ashcraft: If, when people when you when you tell somebody that they have that they are in that they have caused harm or that they are about to cause harm right.
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A Ashcraft: That by itself is you know what they how they react to that is is the measure of of them as as as people right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so yeah and I think that’s kind of the you know, to me, I don’t know if I fit this under negligence or not.
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Shlomo Sher: But you know.
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Shlomo Sher: That the negligence part would have to do like well you’re not aware that this that this could have caused harm right.
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Shlomo Sher: Or maybe not.
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A Ashcraft: Right, and you know, and I, and I believe that they probably were not aware of it until people told them.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and I would think so, but.
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A Ashcraft: Then, it should be, it should also be noted that they did take that image off of their kickstarter.
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A Ashcraft: I don’t know if it’ll actually appear on the cover of the rulebook we’ll go out that we won’t know until that gets published.
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Shlomo Sher: That would be interesting, considering.
435
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Shlomo Sher: How much fun they made of the people that did it right.
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Shlomo Sher: right but uh but yeah essentially right now, if if you’re told that look inadvertently you created something.
437
00:41:19.560 –> 00:41:23.130
Shlomo Sher: That is, you know, a.
438
00:41:24.450 –> 00:41:34.260
Shlomo Sher: a symbol of of hate for people and to me like something that might draw like white supremacist to your game.
439
00:41:34.770 –> 00:41:38.340
Shlomo Sher: Right right, which itself is kind of kind of interesting.
440
00:41:39.750 –> 00:41:55.170
Shlomo Sher: Right and let’s say could potentially encourage people to essentially cause harm to others if you’re told this and you essentially kind of laugh it off at that point right.
441
00:41:55.230 –> 00:41:58.620
A Ashcraft: i’d say we’re getting angry or how they reacted was an anger.
442
00:41:58.680 –> 00:41:59.820
Shlomo Sher: Like anger right.
443
00:41:59.850 –> 00:42:04.470
A Ashcraft: Right like what are you kidding me this is not how dare you.
444
00:42:04.710 –> 00:42:10.950
Shlomo Sher: Right, so at that point right, it seems to me that you’re you’re essentially.
445
00:42:12.300 –> 00:42:20.400
Shlomo Sher: Acting poorly in a way that opens you up to judgment from others, based on how you reacted not based on your original you know, like.
446
00:42:20.820 –> 00:42:22.350
Shlomo Sher: The frog accidentally again.
447
00:42:22.590 –> 00:42:24.690
Shlomo Sher: You know, three fingers and a w.
448
00:42:25.140 –> 00:42:25.410
A Ashcraft: All right.
449
00:42:25.710 –> 00:42:35.850
Shlomo Sher: Really really easy to do if your frog right but to think a look it doesn’t really matter that to me that kind of callousness and I think you can say like.
450
00:42:36.390 –> 00:42:49.950
Shlomo Sher: You know, look I just I get what you’re saying I don’t think the frog is close enough to to this situation, you know we as a team i’ve thought about it, we really like our image of the frog.
451
00:42:51.090 –> 00:43:06.690
Shlomo Sher: We are making a very clear we’re not supporting any white supremacy supremacism and we don’t believe this will cause harm to anybody, so we decided to quit you know go with our original creative decision and keep it, you know that’s a respectable reply, I think.
452
00:43:06.750 –> 00:43:10.920
Shlomo Sher: it’s right but it’s a respectable reply only if you think it really is true.
453
00:43:11.580 –> 00:43:14.460
Shlomo Sher: That this won’t lead to white supremacy.
454
00:43:14.610 –> 00:43:20.670
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s interesting I was thinking of a What if you made a uniform design in a game where.
455
00:43:21.750 –> 00:43:32.040
Shlomo Sher: It just so happens that every time the character turns to the side the uniform shows a swastika, and the side of their body right.
456
00:43:33.420 –> 00:43:35.610
Shlomo Sher: You didn’t intend that right.
457
00:43:36.630 –> 00:43:44.880
Shlomo Sher: It just kind of happened that way, and if you and if you’re like yeah you know I don’t know it’s you know we didn’t mean that but.
458
00:43:45.540 –> 00:43:55.380
Shlomo Sher: You know, we don’t think anything’s gonna that’s not gonna do any harm we’re just we like our design we’re just keeping it we’re going to go with our original creative you know you know creative license.
459
00:43:56.730 –> 00:44:09.600
Shlomo Sher: Well, I think you’re wrong, and I think you know you’re you know, in this case you’re a you know you’re being reckless right you use or you’re not really being reckless but.
460
00:44:09.720 –> 00:44:11.130
Shlomo Sher: You really should know better.
461
00:44:11.190 –> 00:44:11.910
A Ashcraft: Right right.
462
00:44:12.300 –> 00:44:12.780
A Ashcraft: Well yeah.
463
00:44:13.290 –> 00:44:23.610
A Ashcraft: they’re in a reckless I mean somebody if it if it promotes an idea that that ends up, you know that that ends up causing strife and turmoil and pain for somebody then that’s reckless.
464
00:44:23.790 –> 00:44:25.650
Shlomo Sher: Well reckless is, if you.
465
00:44:26.760 –> 00:44:27.330
Shlomo Sher: If you have.
466
00:44:29.280 –> 00:44:36.450
Shlomo Sher: Reckless is, if you know that this is a likely or has a good likelihood of actually causing harm.
467
00:44:36.540 –> 00:44:38.070
A Ashcraft: And you do it anyway okay.
468
00:44:38.310 –> 00:44:40.680
Shlomo Sher: Right, so they might be rejected, of.
469
00:44:41.130 –> 00:44:44.430
A Ashcraft: all likelihood, and you do it anyway that’s not reckless.
470
00:44:45.690 –> 00:44:49.740
Shlomo Sher: Right so notice right this, this is obviously a point where you’re like what do you draw the line.
471
00:44:49.860 –> 00:44:52.350
Shlomo Sher: Right right how’s how much does it need to be.
472
00:44:52.560 –> 00:44:56.610
Shlomo Sher: right if they’re saying now it’s just it’s just a swastika doesn’t mean anything.
473
00:44:57.210 –> 00:45:05.970
Shlomo Sher: You know I would say they’re they’re missing some facts now, this is where I want to go to something like the abortion situation.
474
00:45:06.120 –> 00:45:10.590
Shlomo Sher: yeah and say that you don’t have a lot of the kind of same things there.
475
00:45:10.830 –> 00:45:18.240
A Ashcraft: Right, so let me go yeah let me so i’m wanting to get back to the abortion thing and I guess since we’re since we’re talking about let’s go all in.
476
00:45:20.280 –> 00:45:29.940
A Ashcraft: You know, both sides, believe that the other is promoting ideas that are that actively hurt and and hurt in a majorly strong way.
477
00:45:31.020 –> 00:45:31.770
A Ashcraft: Other people.
478
00:45:32.130 –> 00:45:44.700
A Ashcraft: Right right, so you know the reasonable argument you know the reasonable take on this is that the people who feel this feel strongly about it feel strongly about it, for reasons ran the reasons are good reasons.
479
00:45:44.820 –> 00:45:46.800
A Ashcraft: right they feel strongly about it because.
480
00:45:47.940 –> 00:45:54.900
A Ashcraft: They believe that, as I go to is is a human being and that you know, and then, therefore, abortion is the equivalent to killing a baby.
481
00:45:55.110 –> 00:45:58.530
A Ashcraft: Sir, and we can all agree that killing babies is wrong right.
482
00:46:00.030 –> 00:46:02.550
Shlomo Sher: So good so good good motivating reason.
483
00:46:02.880 –> 00:46:14.100
A Ashcraft: Good motivating reasons and a good reason to say hey the wrong that you’re causing by promoting this idea is strong enough in warrants.
484
00:46:15.420 –> 00:46:17.370
A Ashcraft: And warrants a strong reaction.
485
00:46:18.570 –> 00:46:25.830
A Ashcraft: And then the reverse is true as well, like what women, women not free to take have control over their own bodies.
486
00:46:26.370 –> 00:46:31.620
A Ashcraft: Is is an attack on on on on some basic liberties right.
487
00:46:31.860 –> 00:46:40.650
A Ashcraft: Right and that’s a very strong reason that’s a very we can all agree that we should have we should have control over our own bodies.
488
00:46:41.970 –> 00:46:43.200
Shlomo Sher: Right so.
489
00:46:44.580 –> 00:46:56.670
Shlomo Sher: yeah so So where are where are we in here right is this is this essentially the same kind of situation where, in both cases the people believe that they’re preventing harm from happening, and the other.
490
00:46:56.670 –> 00:46:59.520
Shlomo Sher: Right or thinking that they’re preventing her from happening.
491
00:46:59.760 –> 00:47:02.700
Shlomo Sher: Or that or that the people are recklessly in a.
492
00:47:03.150 –> 00:47:04.020
Shlomo Sher: harm to happen.
493
00:47:04.080 –> 00:47:19.110
A Ashcraft: And that’s why I think that, like you, earlier on, you were trying to draw a distinction some sort of like a starkness distinction between white supremacy and and and this other word like white supremacy is beyond the pale you might say.
494
00:47:20.370 –> 00:47:33.120
A Ashcraft: Whereas, you know the abortion thing is just a political decision well it’s not to the people who you know it’s just a stark it’s just as it’s just as as as important.
495
00:47:35.010 –> 00:47:42.930
Shlomo Sher: To me, I wouldn’t call it just I wouldn’t call abortion just a political issue, but I will say that you know, I think that.
496
00:47:44.460 –> 00:47:50.880
Shlomo Sher: I think it’s really important for people to recognize that there’s a difference between.
497
00:47:52.470 –> 00:48:04.500
Shlomo Sher: Talking about situations that are morally complex where reasonable people can have a you know very different views, even if those Jews are based on.
498
00:48:08.550 –> 00:48:12.630
Shlomo Sher: A very big consequences and things are very, very big import.
499
00:48:14.250 –> 00:48:26.400
Shlomo Sher: And that there’s an end that the underlying reasons for those views are respectable right and and we have a bunch of those right, I think the death penalty is is is another one of those.
500
00:48:26.460 –> 00:48:32.790
Shlomo Sher: yeah, I think, immigration is another one of those yeah you know I think there’s and there’s there’s plenty of those and if.
501
00:48:33.120 –> 00:48:46.920
Shlomo Sher: You know I mean like teach a class in contemporary moral issues and practically every one of those is in there right, but you know I don’t in that class, you know I don’t have a section on like you know is white supremacy okay.
502
00:48:47.460 –> 00:48:58.530
Shlomo Sher: Right right and part of that is that the, and this is not just a cultural debate where the cultural cultural conventions, at this point.
503
00:48:59.460 –> 00:49:13.950
Shlomo Sher: Just kind of say that this is beyond the pale right it’s because there’s really not much to say, that is, you know factual and defensible about this issue right the same would be like so when.
504
00:49:15.150 –> 00:49:29.940
Shlomo Sher: When the gay marriage debate was going on in the United States, I would, I wanted to teach it in my class, but there were so few like reasonable arguments against gay marriage.
505
00:49:30.240 –> 00:49:40.290
Shlomo Sher: Right um you know one was, for example, that it would be very harmful to children that I think that was the most reasonable, and when I say reasonable, I mean.
506
00:49:40.680 –> 00:49:49.110
Shlomo Sher: it’s like a real question, this could cause potential harm, then you have real answers will the cause and we have answers at this point to this question.
507
00:49:49.110 –> 00:49:52.230
A Ashcraft: that’s right yeah let’s let’s make sure that that’s not.
508
00:49:52.410 –> 00:49:52.620
Shlomo Sher: The.
509
00:49:52.650 –> 00:49:55.800
A Ashcraft: Right, well done this understand this and think that that’s actually a question now.
510
00:49:56.100 –> 00:49:59.100
Shlomo Sher: right but back then, when those people were asking this.
511
00:49:59.340 –> 00:50:04.770
A Ashcraft: i’m like Okay, I can it was still not it was still not a reasonable question, well, it was only a reasonable question.
512
00:50:05.670 –> 00:50:07.740
A Ashcraft: If you had.
513
00:50:08.370 –> 00:50:13.770
A Ashcraft: If you had been acculturated to believe that that there was something wrong and something and something.
514
00:50:16.380 –> 00:50:20.460
A Ashcraft: degrading about about homosexual relationships.
515
00:50:21.390 –> 00:50:26.910
Shlomo Sher: um Even so, I think I think either way, I think it was I you know.
516
00:50:27.750 –> 00:50:29.490
A Ashcraft: I mean, honestly, it was not a real.
517
00:50:30.000 –> 00:50:31.530
A Ashcraft: It was not a real question, even then.
518
00:50:32.280 –> 00:50:47.460
Shlomo Sher: Okay, then, then we can disagree on this I, I think, as long as you’re talking about the possible harm for a group of people and that matter, and you don’t have data for it, I think you know um I think it becomes a reasonable.
519
00:50:47.730 –> 00:50:50.070
Shlomo Sher: Reason yeah I you know I.
520
00:50:50.640 –> 00:50:52.920
A Ashcraft: Would I would I would question that too, but go ahead.
521
00:50:52.980 –> 00:50:54.660
Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah yeah I get that right.
522
00:50:54.720 –> 00:51:05.850
Shlomo Sher: Right uh but my My point is like that was pretty much it and I and, at the time, you know all they can do on the gay marriage part was essentially.
523
00:51:06.360 –> 00:51:13.920
Shlomo Sher: say we don’t know yet, so we need more time and again is that enough of a reason to invalidate people’s civil rights, you know I certainly don’t think.
524
00:51:13.920 –> 00:51:23.490
Shlomo Sher: Right right but Besides that, I couldn’t find any other any other arguments that were remotely right, other than simple prejudices.
525
00:51:23.730 –> 00:51:35.400
Shlomo Sher: Right right um and if you have a situation like this it’s very hard for me to see you know both sides of the fence here being you know defensible right.
526
00:51:35.760 –> 00:51:40.140
Shlomo Sher: Right, and I think the white power thing very much is in that kind of.
527
00:51:40.350 –> 00:51:47.550
Shlomo Sher: same same place there’s just you know any opinions are either based on bad facts that there’s no real arguments.
528
00:51:47.610 –> 00:51:51.090
Shlomo Sher: Right right that are power so notice it’s not just social Convention.
529
00:51:51.690 –> 00:51:59.640
Shlomo Sher: And yeah and and to me, this makes a really big difference if you’re being canceled on one versus the other, having said that.
530
00:52:00.660 –> 00:52:06.180
Shlomo Sher: What counts as like you’re supporting white power is far from clear.
531
00:52:07.110 –> 00:52:16.440
Shlomo Sher: Right right and, and this is, I think we’re cancelled culture hits this big big other thing because you know, like, I think, like john gibson’s.
532
00:52:17.010 –> 00:52:32.010
Shlomo Sher: Statements are completely Okay, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them supporting white collar white you know, supporting abortion, I think, is you know, even though i’m a pro choice person I think you know pro life position is very defensible but.
533
00:52:33.330 –> 00:52:34.200
Shlomo Sher: You know, promoting.
534
00:52:35.310 –> 00:52:38.910
Shlomo Sher: White supremacy, I think I think is not and.
535
00:52:40.380 –> 00:52:47.220
Shlomo Sher: You know the question that becomes are you saying that tg games are promoting white supremacy.
536
00:52:47.730 –> 00:53:05.220
Shlomo Sher: Are you accusing them of something like this, and this is where you get all the calls for sexism and racism that may or may not be sexism racism and get and people get canceled on things that are also not clearly wrong so to me, there has to be this connection, but.
537
00:53:05.220 –> 00:53:08.190
Shlomo Sher: Yes, listen in the response.
538
00:53:08.490 –> 00:53:12.540
A Ashcraft: Even right right, so the you know if it.
539
00:53:12.810 –> 00:53:22.560
A Ashcraft: If it does, even though they don’t intend it to you know we and we’re going back to that right if there’s one person in the audience, out of a million people that see this image.
540
00:53:23.340 –> 00:53:29.940
A Ashcraft: That go, thank God there’s somebody like me who believes that way prove that the way people are some are better than everybody else.
541
00:53:32.730 –> 00:53:33.180
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
542
00:53:34.110 –> 00:53:35.130
A Ashcraft: Is that bad.
543
00:53:37.110 –> 00:53:37.860
Shlomo Sher: i’m.
544
00:53:38.700 –> 00:53:40.320
Shlomo Sher: Sure, I yeah.
545
00:53:40.560 –> 00:53:41.100
Shlomo Sher: Right.
546
00:53:41.160 –> 00:53:42.060
A Ashcraft: I mean yours.
547
00:53:42.510 –> 00:53:47.730
Shlomo Sher: But you know, is it worse than other things right, I mean what what, what are the kind of options.
548
00:53:47.760 –> 00:53:52.410
A Ashcraft: Is it well, is it is it worse than then changing the position of the frogs hands.
549
00:53:53.070 –> 00:53:53.460
Shlomo Sher: Right.
550
00:53:54.240 –> 00:53:56.100
A Ashcraft: that’s the question that’s the question right.
551
00:53:56.160 –> 00:53:56.490
Shlomo Sher: Right.
552
00:53:57.030 –> 00:54:00.030
A Ashcraft: And is it is it worse than doing a little bit of extra work.
553
00:54:00.270 –> 00:54:01.710
A Ashcraft: To make sure that this doesn’t happen.
554
00:54:03.570 –> 00:54:08.760
Shlomo Sher: Though notice right, one of the things we can ask is how much extra work.
555
00:54:08.910 –> 00:54:11.190
Shlomo Sher: Well right, yes, we absolutely know how much.
556
00:54:11.250 –> 00:54:12.870
Shlomo Sher: extra work, I mean.
557
00:54:12.900 –> 00:54:13.890
A Ashcraft: it’s not very much.
558
00:54:13.950 –> 00:54:14.910
Shlomo Sher: it’s not very much right so.
559
00:54:15.540 –> 00:54:16.470
Shlomo Sher: right when it.
560
00:54:16.770 –> 00:54:17.280
Shlomo Sher: Right and.
561
00:54:17.370 –> 00:54:19.590
A Ashcraft: And and and have small portion of one image.
562
00:54:20.100 –> 00:54:22.110
Shlomo Sher: Right, a small portion of what image right.
563
00:54:22.200 –> 00:54:27.690
Shlomo Sher: Right and how much does that image really mean to the creator right might.
564
00:54:27.750 –> 00:54:34.020
Shlomo Sher: kind of how How important is it to the Creator, that the frogs hands are our place in this exact.
565
00:54:34.350 –> 00:54:34.890
Shlomo Sher: placement.
566
00:54:35.340 –> 00:54:42.330
A Ashcraft: right there in their case they were actually working from a photograph and the frogs hands happened to be in that position in the photograph.
567
00:54:42.990 –> 00:54:44.700
A Ashcraft: Right, so you know.
568
00:54:45.930 –> 00:54:52.890
A Ashcraft: Presumably it was a meaningless decision from the from the artists from the artistic point of view.
569
00:54:53.040 –> 00:54:56.700
Shlomo Sher: Okay right just you’re just copying here’s here’s the way the frog happens to be.
570
00:54:57.090 –> 00:54:57.510
Right.
571
00:54:58.680 –> 00:55:05.250
Shlomo Sher: Though you know it is interesting right part of it is also a taking a stance against the.
572
00:55:05.640 –> 00:55:06.180
Shlomo Sher: You know.
573
00:55:06.210 –> 00:55:07.260
A Ashcraft: cancelled culture.
574
00:55:07.350 –> 00:55:08.790
Shlomo Sher: Against Cancer culture in general.
575
00:55:09.030 –> 00:55:11.970
A Ashcraft: Which which we have now, which we have which.
576
00:55:12.210 –> 00:55:19.140
A Ashcraft: which we have determined and you’ve and you’ve you have, and you have agreed to is.
577
00:55:20.490 –> 00:55:22.380
A Ashcraft: is always only used.
578
00:55:23.730 –> 00:55:28.590
A Ashcraft: To defend traditional traditional status quo values.
579
00:55:32.010 –> 00:55:37.650
Shlomo Sher: Sure, but you but you might say, you know I mean like that, I mean.
580
00:55:38.160 –> 00:55:40.680
A Ashcraft: I mean doesn’t matter doesn’t don’t you think that matters.
581
00:55:40.740 –> 00:55:42.750
Shlomo Sher: that the term only applies to one side.
582
00:55:42.930 –> 00:55:44.550
Shlomo Sher: yeah um.
583
00:55:45.630 –> 00:55:48.180
Shlomo Sher: I think it matters in the sense that.
584
00:55:50.580 –> 00:55:51.090
Shlomo Sher: It.
585
00:55:53.040 –> 00:55:58.800
Shlomo Sher: draws all the attention to the canceling that’s happening in one direction, rather than the other.
586
00:56:01.140 –> 00:56:17.190
Shlomo Sher: You know I think it’s unhelpful in that way again right there’s like a million things were like conservative conservative say let’s cancel Facebook, you know they don’t use the word cancel that’s true i’m facing you know um you know Facebook banned trump we should only Facebook right.
587
00:56:17.220 –> 00:56:19.530
Shlomo Sher: Right right, I mean that’s canceling Facebook.
588
00:56:19.710 –> 00:56:26.970
A Ashcraft: Right, but what they what they do instead is they say Facebook is canceling Donald trump we should leave it.
589
00:56:30.180 –> 00:56:31.050
Shlomo Sher: With me but.
590
00:56:31.200 –> 00:56:36.240
A Ashcraft: They use they use cancer culture as the as the defense of their own action so yeah.
591
00:56:36.510 –> 00:56:41.610
Shlomo Sher: Which which whichever way you call it right to me that that that part I think it’s.
592
00:56:41.610 –> 00:56:42.930
A Ashcraft: Important to recognize.
593
00:56:43.470 –> 00:56:49.710
Shlomo Sher: The you know I think it’s just important to recognize that whatever this phenomena is.
594
00:56:51.150 –> 00:56:54.090
Shlomo Sher: That it’s it’s happening, you know.
595
00:56:56.130 –> 00:56:58.320
Shlomo Sher: That it’s happening in both directions.
596
00:56:58.590 –> 00:57:15.570
Shlomo Sher: Right, you know and that and I think they using the term cancer culture to only refer to cancer conservative things kind of Mrs Mrs the point so that part I think I think matters that we want to make sure that we don’t kind of missed the point that people are engaged in this and.
597
00:57:16.860 –> 00:57:18.870
Shlomo Sher: All sides and have been for for a long.
598
00:57:18.870 –> 00:57:19.230
A Ashcraft: yeah.
599
00:57:19.470 –> 00:57:27.720
A Ashcraft: For sure people people make decisions about how they how they spend their dollars for all kinds of different reasons, and some of them are ethical and some of their IRA and ethical.
600
00:57:28.710 –> 00:57:36.960
Shlomo Sher: But at the same time, I think that there also is a point to pointing out that.
601
00:57:38.190 –> 00:57:50.880
Shlomo Sher: You know this, you know can get out of hand and often recently, has gotten out of hand and where you’re going to say, the response is not fair.
602
00:57:51.420 –> 00:58:09.720
Shlomo Sher: You know the responses is not right right so john gifts and losing his job to me right, that seems like a really unfair response, despite the fact that he’s a CEO you know, I think that the CEOs of of companies that have you know, had a you know.
603
00:58:10.560 –> 00:58:16.950
A Ashcraft: made so it’s interesting so so so, so why not, why is it unfair.
604
00:58:18.330 –> 00:58:20.550
Shlomo Sher: Why is it unfair, because I think the.
605
00:58:20.550 –> 00:58:21.570
Shlomo Sher: main he’s he’s.
606
00:58:21.960 –> 00:58:24.000
A Ashcraft: Seeing other people in the company have.
607
00:58:24.120 –> 00:58:30.330
A Ashcraft: have chosen to lose this lose their jobs because they don’t want to work for him anymore.
608
00:58:31.980 –> 00:58:32.130
Shlomo Sher: i’m.
609
00:58:32.550 –> 00:58:33.150
Shlomo Sher: Right well.
610
00:58:33.210 –> 00:58:38.310
Shlomo Sher: I think that is their prerogative, but the company letting him go.
611
00:58:38.550 –> 00:58:38.940
Shlomo Sher: So the.
612
00:58:39.330 –> 00:58:49.680
A Ashcraft: wires a business right and if he’s harming their business by harming their ability to keep employees harming their ability to to to to.
613
00:58:51.180 –> 00:58:51.810
A Ashcraft: To.
614
00:58:53.100 –> 00:58:55.320
A Ashcraft: To form partnerships with other companies.
615
00:58:55.890 –> 00:58:57.450
Shlomo Sher: Right yeah.
616
00:58:58.020 –> 00:58:59.100
Shlomo Sher: Is it.
617
00:58:59.130 –> 00:59:00.180
A Ashcraft: Now is that fair.
618
00:59:02.850 –> 00:59:18.390
A Ashcraft: Does does does it being a business as a business does does their business ethics and their business, you know the business responsibilities and their ethical response you know the recent ethics of being responsible to their business and our employees into their.
619
00:59:19.650 –> 00:59:23.220
A Ashcraft: Does that trump has private ethics.
620
00:59:25.110 –> 00:59:31.620
Shlomo Sher: I don’t know yeah yeah so so so we’re so we’re back to this and we’re back to the and.
621
00:59:32.970 –> 00:59:47.250
Shlomo Sher: To to me it’s not I wouldn’t call it as trumping as private ethics, but ultimately, I think I think this is really hard, and again I think about teachers who have been fired.
622
00:59:47.280 –> 00:59:53.250
Shlomo Sher: For saying things privately and how many other people have been fired for saying things privately.
623
00:59:53.820 –> 00:59:56.520
Shlomo Sher: Because they say, well, this will reflect back on that and.
624
00:59:56.640 –> 01:00:09.120
A Ashcraft: And again, when you say when you say privately you mean as a citizen and not as a teacher, not necessarily in the privacy of their own homes right away as a way of using the word privately and I just want to make sure this there’s a distinction.
625
01:00:09.330 –> 01:00:15.660
A Ashcraft: If I post things on Facebook, I might be saying them as a private citizen, but i’m not saying them privately.
626
01:00:16.380 –> 01:00:24.150
Shlomo Sher: Though it’s yeah though it’s interesting right, I mean these days you could be saying them, you know privately, in the context where you think you are.
627
01:00:25.500 –> 01:00:27.780
Shlomo Sher: let’s say alone with the person you’re talking to.
628
01:00:28.080 –> 01:00:32.490
Shlomo Sher: But someone might be, you know taping that right might might getting that on video.
629
01:00:32.610 –> 01:00:41.040
Shlomo Sher: Right and then your private statements become public so part of it, I think, really does matter what your intended what your intended form is.
630
01:00:41.220 –> 01:00:45.780
A Ashcraft: Right, we see we see you know things that are caught on on live microphones.
631
01:00:46.320 –> 01:00:47.640
Shlomo Sher: Politicians speaking right.
632
01:00:47.700 –> 01:00:50.910
A Ashcraft: candidly not realizing their microphone is on.
633
01:00:51.540 –> 01:00:55.680
Shlomo Sher: Right right and that’s an accidental you know private turned turned public.
634
01:00:56.220 –> 01:00:58.230
Shlomo Sher: um and then you’ve got the.
635
01:00:58.320 –> 01:01:02.700
Shlomo Sher: And this is where I think the teachers are particularly interesting right, but really.
636
01:01:03.840 –> 01:01:14.850
Shlomo Sher: You know anybody, but the teachers as a question of you know, does this reveal something about who you are that intrinsically makes it harder to do your job.
637
01:01:15.270 –> 01:01:30.000
Shlomo Sher: Right, so if let’s say your private conversations revealed that you are like fundamentally races right and then we’re talking about putting someone is fundamentally racist and you know you know front of a classroom of diverse kids.
638
01:01:30.240 –> 01:01:43.410
Shlomo Sher: Right right that seems to be directly impacting your job right, but what, if you are essentially right uh impacting the reputation of the school right or in this case the reputation of the business.
639
01:01:43.560 –> 01:01:48.360
Shlomo Sher: Right right and to me it’s you know.
640
01:01:49.710 –> 01:01:53.400
Shlomo Sher: For me that’s that’s tough, you know it’s it’s just.
641
01:01:53.400 –> 01:01:57.000
Shlomo Sher: it’s really, really tough I I really wish we.
642
01:01:58.320 –> 01:02:01.770
Shlomo Sher: You know, gave people more leeway to.
643
01:02:02.940 –> 01:02:13.560
Shlomo Sher: Have a private life, where they can say things and not be held to them by the record and separate their private lives for their professional lives, I think we really need that divide.
644
01:02:14.790 –> 01:02:27.840
Shlomo Sher: On the other hand, there are certain things that people do in public that are like let’s say the the people participated in January six insurrection they got fired I mean that was a very public active over trying to overthrow the government.
645
01:02:28.950 –> 01:02:33.150
Shlomo Sher: And you know that’s very different from venting on Facebook.
646
01:02:33.510 –> 01:02:35.280
Shlomo Sher: to your friends right.
647
01:02:35.340 –> 01:02:43.260
A Ashcraft: Right right right and it should be, you know, and we should point out that people are not are not being taken to court for venting on on.
648
01:02:44.220 –> 01:02:52.380
A Ashcraft: on Facebook, they are being taken to court, the people were being taken to court for that for January six stuff is our people who literally took an action.
649
01:02:52.920 –> 01:02:53.370
A Ashcraft: Right.
650
01:02:53.610 –> 01:02:54.390
And they oh.
651
01:02:55.470 –> 01:03:05.190
Shlomo Sher: Do you remember that the cheerleader right that wrote on Facebook like Fuck cheerleading Fuck the high school and she got kicked out of cheerleading.
652
01:03:05.580 –> 01:03:06.870
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
653
01:03:07.950 –> 01:03:10.620
Shlomo Sher: Even though she vented just privately to our friends.
654
01:03:11.040 –> 01:03:11.550
A Ashcraft: Right right.
655
01:03:11.610 –> 01:03:13.440
Shlomo Sher: Right screenshot of that got out.
656
01:03:13.890 –> 01:03:17.640
Shlomo Sher: Right right, so this would be the other kind of thing.
657
01:03:18.180 –> 01:03:20.760
A Ashcraft: yeah, although I think, in that case didn’t it.
658
01:03:22.170 –> 01:03:34.650
A Ashcraft: I think the causality got reversed, like the public perception of the of how things happened there got reversed i’m not sure, but I feel like like she was in trouble, and she was going to get kicked out.
659
01:03:35.070 –> 01:03:36.840
A Ashcraft: For for for.
660
01:03:37.890 –> 01:03:38.580
A Ashcraft: For.
661
01:03:39.930 –> 01:03:44.220
A Ashcraft: we’re having is like it was there was some some racist things that she said.
662
01:03:44.520 –> 01:03:46.950
A Ashcraft: In cheerleading and she has other she has like.
663
01:03:47.250 –> 01:03:48.600
A Ashcraft: cheerleading friends.
664
01:03:49.170 –> 01:03:49.920
A Ashcraft: And then.
665
01:03:50.100 –> 01:03:50.970
Shlomo Sher: Thanks so that’s.
666
01:03:51.150 –> 01:03:59.040
A Ashcraft: How she was getting in trouble and that’s what caused her to make to vent on Facebook, which was then sort of the final straw and got her and got her booted yeah i’m not.
667
01:03:59.070 –> 01:04:01.170
A Ashcraft: i’m not sure about that so don’t quote me.
668
01:04:01.230 –> 01:04:11.820
Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah that’s not that’s not how I think it happened at all, but uh you know the the school maintain that cheerleaders are supposed to be representatives of the school.
669
01:04:12.150 –> 01:04:16.590
Shlomo Sher: yeah right and that if you’re representing the school in a poor way.
670
01:04:17.730 –> 01:04:21.300
Shlomo Sher: Then you are not fulfilling your duty as a cheerleader.
671
01:04:21.420 –> 01:04:21.990
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
672
01:04:22.350 –> 01:04:26.910
Shlomo Sher: But she had you know she had a bad day and she was venting on her personal Facebook.
673
01:04:27.270 –> 01:04:33.840
Shlomo Sher: Right so again notice this idea of if that gets out right it’s impacting your.
674
01:04:34.980 –> 01:04:37.200
Shlomo Sher: position as an ambassador.
675
01:04:37.230 –> 01:04:39.600
A Ashcraft: No, I know I know, on one hand, and you know it’s.
676
01:04:39.630 –> 01:04:45.180
A Ashcraft: yeah it’s impacting your it’s it’s you know, yes, everybody can have a bad day.
677
01:04:46.500 –> 01:04:47.130
A Ashcraft: But.
678
01:04:49.230 –> 01:04:54.330
A Ashcraft: But you don’t want you don’t want to use like Oh, I had a bad day as an excuse for a lot of bad behavior.
679
01:04:55.680 –> 01:05:00.930
A Ashcraft: Right Oh, I had a bad day, so I went home and killed my mom is not Okay, you know.
680
01:05:01.230 –> 01:05:02.640
Shlomo Sher: it’s like sure, but we’re not you.
681
01:05:02.640 –> 01:05:02.820
A Ashcraft: know.
682
01:05:02.910 –> 01:05:04.320
Shlomo Sher: i’m not the same thing right.
683
01:05:04.350 –> 01:05:05.970
A Ashcraft: I I hate Mondays.
684
01:05:09.750 –> 01:05:17.910
Shlomo Sher: Right, but again notice right this this idea of a obviously you know there’s a kind of limit to it right and again.
685
01:05:17.940 –> 01:05:22.140
Shlomo Sher: Right, you can use the the private racism comment.
686
01:05:22.530 –> 01:05:23.940
Shlomo Sher: right with with the teacher.
687
01:05:24.090 –> 01:05:34.140
Shlomo Sher: As you know, as as a potential thing now, mind you, I haven’t thought enough about this to to to know where to draw the lines here, obviously, if you couldn’t tell.
688
01:05:34.320 –> 01:05:38.490
A Ashcraft: me honestly yeah and I do think, I do think it comes down to you know.
689
01:05:39.720 –> 01:05:49.320
A Ashcraft: To individual tolerances right, and I would like us to be a diverse country that can talk about a diversity of of.
690
01:05:50.670 –> 01:06:03.030
A Ashcraft: of opinions and can talk about a diversity of people and and and support and and respect a diversity of of foundational ethical beliefs.
691
01:06:05.220 –> 01:06:05.880
Shlomo Sher: A.
692
01:06:05.940 –> 01:06:06.600
Shlomo Sher: Show is.
693
01:06:06.630 –> 01:06:08.130
A Ashcraft: Not what we have right now.
694
01:06:08.340 –> 01:06:12.090
A Ashcraft: Right right we’re working towards it, I think.
695
01:06:13.110 –> 01:06:27.510
Shlomo Sher: Well, and what do you do when you know what you see as fundamental to that diversity so let’s say if you see abortion as an issue that is absolutely necessary for sex gender equality.
696
01:06:28.080 –> 01:06:29.010
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
697
01:06:30.120 –> 01:06:46.140
Shlomo Sher: And you know, does this mean that john gibson you know you can’t let him get away as you might someone might say right with that without a reaction, because he is getting in the way of that to the kind of diversity of.
698
01:06:47.370 –> 01:06:49.500
Shlomo Sher: The kind of fundamental.
699
01:06:51.030 –> 01:06:55.230
Shlomo Sher: You know, a state way of being that will allow the kind of diversity, you want.
700
01:06:55.680 –> 01:07:08.460
Shlomo Sher: Right right um and that part is, of course, interesting and of course there’s also cut you know positions of you know you know, diversity and combines unity right, we should strive instead for unity and unity means.
701
01:07:08.550 –> 01:07:08.940
A Ashcraft: Where we’re.
702
01:07:08.970 –> 01:07:11.130
A Ashcraft: At and I understand that the the.
703
01:07:11.370 –> 01:07:21.690
A Ashcraft: The the conundrum and they you know of my position is, I want to I want us to be unified in our in our acceptance of diversity.
704
01:07:21.810 –> 01:07:22.770
Shlomo Sher: Sir right.
705
01:07:22.830 –> 01:07:25.560
A Ashcraft: Right and so that’s where my you that’s where the unity comes in.
706
01:07:26.070 –> 01:07:39.240
Shlomo Sher: And right and and that’s there’s nothing self contradictory about that, but uh it’s just one way to be unified and it’s and it’s it’s the harder way to be unified.
707
01:07:39.870 –> 01:07:56.760
Shlomo Sher: Right it’s it’s a way to be unified that takes that takes a lot more work and as much harder, I think, to maintain and, ultimately, I think that’s one that gets put to the test, because even in that kind of unification, you can only have you know diversity that goes so far.
708
01:07:56.970 –> 01:08:04.440
Shlomo Sher: Right right still be differences of opinions about things, and how how things are allocated and all you know all of the things that normally.
709
01:08:05.130 –> 01:08:08.040
A Ashcraft: are relegated to political opinion.
710
01:08:08.460 –> 01:08:09.870
A Ashcraft: Sure, money is spent.
711
01:08:11.100 –> 01:08:17.760
Shlomo Sher: Sure, I mean you can have you know you can go back to john Locke and a letter concerning a religious of religious tolerance.
712
01:08:17.790 –> 01:08:24.870
Shlomo Sher: tolerance of religion, or you know he’s like yeah we should be tolerant of all religions, except the religions that are tolerant of other religions.
713
01:08:25.260 –> 01:08:26.610
Shlomo Sher: Right, so I mean that’s that’s.
714
01:08:26.730 –> 01:08:28.710
Shlomo Sher: You know that’s part of the conundrum here.
715
01:08:28.800 –> 01:08:29.340
A Ashcraft: Right right.
716
01:08:29.640 –> 01:08:38.760
Shlomo Sher: Because you’re always going to have a limit to the toleration you can have, and then you want to make a stand there and say look, this is the This is where we draw the line.
717
01:08:39.120 –> 01:08:50.280
Shlomo Sher: And with things like tg G and the white power right for many people it’s like Okay, this is like Okay, maybe i’m willing to accept john gibson and people like them, but you know.
718
01:08:50.910 –> 01:09:01.500
Shlomo Sher: Anything associated where you’re like refusing to disassociate yourself from a symbol of white power that’s that’s where we draw the line and that’s what we’re not going to be tolerant about it.
719
01:09:01.770 –> 01:09:17.430
Shlomo Sher: Right and and how does this work for a business well that part I don’t know because remember we had that episode about what the responsibilities of game companies are and what the responsibility of the businesses, and you know, only one of the four.
720
01:09:18.960 –> 01:09:30.360
Shlomo Sher: ways we talked about of thinking about the corporate social responsibility of businesses, said that you know money was the essentially the sole.
721
01:09:31.530 –> 01:09:36.900
Shlomo Sher: responsibility of businesses right and I tend to believe in the social web model that.
722
01:09:36.960 –> 01:09:47.130
Shlomo Sher: means that businesses do have businesses or citizens in some sense, like everybody else and have responsibilities, like everybody else to the Community.
723
01:09:48.150 –> 01:09:57.960
Shlomo Sher: So for me, you know I it’s the fact that it’s harder for that, if they let go of.
724
01:09:59.310 –> 01:10:02.550
Shlomo Sher: You know of john gibson because it’s better for the business.
725
01:10:04.170 –> 01:10:08.070
Shlomo Sher: To me, that is purely economic decision and I tend to fault that.
726
01:10:08.550 –> 01:10:11.220
Shlomo Sher: I don’t want those things to be purely economic decisions.
727
01:10:11.580 –> 01:10:16.170
Shlomo Sher: At the same time, I think those companies have responsibilities to the employees as well.
728
01:10:16.350 –> 01:10:16.680
A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
729
01:10:16.770 –> 01:10:17.610
Shlomo Sher: And if it meant.
730
01:10:17.760 –> 01:10:23.670
Shlomo Sher: that the company was going was going to go under and the employees were going to lose their jobs, I wouldn’t.
731
01:10:23.760 –> 01:10:32.040
Shlomo Sher: think that the responsibility to be stronger to do something about that, but notice that’s not just about money right that’s about responsibilities to your employees to.
732
01:10:32.280 –> 01:10:39.120
A Ashcraft: that’s right and I, and I tend to believe that I don’t I don’t believe in single point causality I don’t think that you know.
733
01:10:39.630 –> 01:10:52.740
A Ashcraft: People make decisions for exactly one causal effect, you know they make decisions because a variety of things have built up and cause the decision to flip from one side to the other.
734
01:10:54.330 –> 01:11:00.180
A Ashcraft: You know, so you look at the like did they did they did he lose his job because.
735
01:11:01.620 –> 01:11:12.420
A Ashcraft: Of the social aspect of what he said or did they lose his job because of the political the the the business aspect of what what he said and how it Ram you know the ramifications there of.
736
01:11:12.780 –> 01:11:13.020
Shlomo Sher: well.
737
01:11:13.050 –> 01:11:15.690
Shlomo Sher: This guy’s probably true that it’s probably both are true.
738
01:11:16.230 –> 01:11:19.470
Shlomo Sher: But it seems to be that they’re super closely connected here I mean.
739
01:11:19.500 –> 01:11:25.410
A Ashcraft: Well yeah they are super closely connected but they’re still separate causes like if he if they hadn’t.
740
01:11:26.160 –> 01:11:36.420
A Ashcraft: If they hadn’t lost if they hadn’t lost the jobs because of them and they hadn’t lost the business partners would they have still fired him, maybe, maybe not if.
741
01:11:36.570 –> 01:11:37.620
A Ashcraft: If he had tweeted.
742
01:11:38.070 –> 01:11:52.920
A Ashcraft: Something else about a different topic that some people still found a directive, but nobody left the business and nobody and and no and and they didn’t lose any of the business partners would they have still fired him.
743
01:11:54.810 –> 01:11:59.220
A Ashcraft: You know, again we don’t know that that was that’s a world that didn’t happen.
744
01:11:59.640 –> 01:12:01.170
A Ashcraft: But both of those two things.
745
01:12:01.380 –> 01:12:04.440
A Ashcraft: You know at least two things were caused him to lose his job.
746
01:12:05.610 –> 01:12:06.150
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
747
01:12:06.420 –> 01:12:13.260
A Ashcraft: He tweeted something object socially objective objectionable and they lost business they lost business because of it.
748
01:12:14.640 –> 01:12:18.060
Shlomo Sher: yeah he could have lost his job just because they lost business.
749
01:12:18.180 –> 01:12:21.420
A Ashcraft: yeah right he could have not tweeted anything and they and and.
750
01:12:21.600 –> 01:12:36.120
A Ashcraft: People quit because he was they didn’t like him and people wouldn’t do business with with them, because they didn’t like him and that might still cause them to to let him go a CEO because that’s just like like the cheerleader that’s his job.
751
01:12:38.160 –> 01:12:38.610
Shlomo Sher: um.
752
01:12:39.960 –> 01:12:44.280
Shlomo Sher: yeah I mean yeah as far as why something did happen.
753
01:12:44.700 –> 01:12:50.100
Shlomo Sher: Right, you know I you know I don’t know how would help to dig into the the causes exactly.
754
01:12:50.160 –> 01:13:00.900
Shlomo Sher: Right, but as far as like what should happen, you know, and this kind of connects with this idea of you know, should a business even take a ball stance, you know something.
755
01:13:01.440 –> 01:13:02.010
Right.
756
01:13:03.660 –> 01:13:05.160
A Ashcraft: I mean if you believe that there that.
757
01:13:05.220 –> 01:13:08.460
A Ashcraft: we’re in a social web and absolutely they should take a moral stance.
758
01:13:08.760 –> 01:13:22.920
Shlomo Sher: So you know if the business said, you know we’re taking a stand against as many businesses that were taking a stand against the Texas law right and because the CEO is for it we’re going to fire him.
759
01:13:23.940 –> 01:13:38.850
Shlomo Sher: Right yeah I mean I mean so right the social web model, which again i’m i’m, for I still I, I think that I think it’s it’s tough, you know I.
760
01:13:39.900 –> 01:13:45.510
Shlomo Sher: I think that it generally I don’t think it really helps to have companies take sides in the Culture war.
761
01:13:46.920 –> 01:13:53.280
Shlomo Sher: But other parts of the Culture war, where you’re talking about like basic human rights.
762
01:13:53.400 –> 01:13:53.730
A Ashcraft: Right.
763
01:13:53.970 –> 01:13:54.570
Shlomo Sher: You know.
764
01:13:54.810 –> 01:14:06.420
A Ashcraft: I think we can, I think there’s another I mean we’re now we’re running over time, but, but I do want to like that the term culture War I think is very much like the term cancel culture.
765
01:14:08.100 –> 01:14:11.160
A Ashcraft: And it has specific meetings that we could probably dig into.
766
01:14:12.720 –> 01:14:14.460
Shlomo Sher: I think I think they’ll take us too far.
767
01:14:14.520 –> 01:14:18.360
A Ashcraft: yeah that was way too far, today we don’t want to do it today, but I do want to like.
768
01:14:18.390 –> 01:14:23.880
A Ashcraft: bring it up like as soon as somebody invokes these words you’re like wait a minute, what does that mean.
769
01:14:24.720 –> 01:14:26.250
A Ashcraft: Well, like you need to know.
770
01:14:26.520 –> 01:14:27.780
A Ashcraft: Sure right.
771
01:14:28.320 –> 01:14:37.470
Shlomo Sher: right but, in this day, you know very simply right deep cultural issues that we tend to be politically divided right right.
772
01:14:37.950 –> 01:14:49.920
Shlomo Sher: um but you know i’m splitting those things very so when the nba like pulls out of south of North Carolina because of the transgender bathroom things because they see it as a human rights issue.
773
01:14:51.150 –> 01:15:00.270
Shlomo Sher: But when I say day right it’s like the nba as the as an organization and, of course, within it does have a diversity of opinions.
774
01:15:01.650 –> 01:15:06.720
Shlomo Sher: You know, part of me wants to praise it because I think you’re taking a human rights stand, of course.
775
01:15:06.870 –> 01:15:14.940
Shlomo Sher: You know when they and at the same time, when they back off human rights claims when China pushes them right.
776
01:15:15.300 –> 01:15:16.020
Shlomo Sher: uh.
777
01:15:16.230 –> 01:15:16.830
Shlomo Sher: You know.
778
01:15:16.860 –> 01:15:19.260
A Ashcraft: i’ve been in the wrong thing.
779
01:15:19.440 –> 01:15:26.100
A Ashcraft: Right looks it well if they if they push on one and don’t push on the other, makes them feel hypocritical.
780
01:15:27.000 –> 01:15:30.330
Shlomo Sher: yeah but, of course, you know if they’re thinking.
781
01:15:30.570 –> 01:15:31.290
A Ashcraft: But uh.
782
01:15:31.350 –> 01:15:31.980
Shlomo Sher: yeah there are other.
783
01:15:32.010 –> 01:15:32.670
A Ashcraft: things going on.
784
01:15:33.120 –> 01:15:39.390
Shlomo Sher: Right, so you know if they’re if they’re thinking a look at the the harm that we’re going to do.
785
01:15:40.260 –> 01:15:47.850
Shlomo Sher: right if we get out of China now, mind you, are they really thinking that are they just thinking about look we’re busy we’re going to lose so much.
786
01:15:48.120 –> 01:16:04.140
Shlomo Sher: we’re not going to make so much money if we if we get leave China, so I I think those things those days kind of matter if you can take behalf, you know sides and basic human rights, what is the idea of you know, being a good corporate citizens.
787
01:16:04.500 –> 01:16:05.700
Shlomo Sher: and good corporate citizen.
788
01:16:05.880 –> 01:16:10.860
Shlomo Sher: But to me, those are things like I personally would prefer companies kind of.
789
01:16:11.940 –> 01:16:18.330
Shlomo Sher: Did that by stayed away from other more controversial issues you know, like abortion.
790
01:16:19.230 –> 01:16:26.760
Shlomo Sher: Right, you know, like you know, like immigration I I I don’t know I you know, to me it just seems like.
791
01:16:28.710 –> 01:16:43.650
Shlomo Sher: It just seems like you’re getting into a point where you’re a corporation that’s representing the interests of a lot of people and a lot of diverse opinions, and it seems unfair to kind of you know, to pick and choose, but I don’t have a bright line for you here.
792
01:16:44.040 –> 01:17:02.160
A Ashcraft: yeah yeah it’s it’s and I think it has to it has to be judged, case by case by by person by person right everybody has to make their own decisions about these things and and you know and how far they want to push other people do to make the same decision as themselves.
793
01:17:02.520 –> 01:17:06.510
Shlomo Sher: Right, but what I, what I want to point to right is that.
794
01:17:07.590 –> 01:17:12.570
Shlomo Sher: As we can make these decisions, you know, in the you know individually, we can make the wrong decision.
795
01:17:13.410 –> 01:17:19.680
A Ashcraft: Right right right when and that’s what I think is is useful about ethics is that it helps us make the right decision.
796
01:17:20.130 –> 01:17:31.560
A Ashcraft: Right, the more we understand ethics and the more we we we can understand, like how, why are we making these decisions let’s think through the ethical possibilities of these issues that helps us make the right decisions.
797
01:17:32.280 –> 01:17:34.860
Shlomo Sher: You know Andy I think we should keep making this podcast.
798
01:17:35.700 –> 01:17:36.180
Shlomo Sher: All right.
799
01:17:37.530 –> 01:17:38.550
Shlomo Sher: let’s do it.
800
01:17:38.910 –> 01:17:40.830
Shlomo Sher: All right, good podcast.
801
01:17:40.980 –> 01:17:42.060
A Ashcraft: contentious but good.
802
01:17:42.060 –> 01:17:42.780
podcast.
803
01:17:43.830 –> 01:17:44.970
Shlomo Sher: I play nice everybody.
