[Release Date: July 27, 2021] Trolls are the jerks of the gaming world. They provoke, they insult, they disrupt, they get their gaming pleasure from messing with other players emotions and messing up their games. It’s not hard to say that trolling it typically immoral, but are all trolls the same and is trolling ever justified?
Joining us for our discussion is Dr. Christine “Chrissy” Cook (@ChristinelcookL), an expert researchers on trolls in video games.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: Okay Trolls are the jerks of the gaming world right this frustrate players to know and.
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Shlomo Sher: But why do they do it is it because there’s sociopathic like empathy or they just people playing a different game with a different goal that just happens to mess around with other people’s games.
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Shlomo Sher: Are they deeply unhappy people that are just lashing out and assuming that Trolls do what they do for variety of different reasons.
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Shlomo Sher: How should we think about the ethics of what they’re doing and whether also it’s okay to troll the Trolls and our guest today is Dr Christine chrissy cook.
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Shlomo Sher: she’s an expert on Trolls and video games and she may tell us that everything I just said about Trolls up to this point is completely wrong or hopefully lacking a nuance right and we definitely want to get some nuance here.
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Shlomo Sher: Dr cook is a Canadian postdoctoral research or at the national chichi University in Taipei Taiwan, hopefully, I pronounced that right.
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Shlomo Sher: And she’s coming to us from Taipei today, although background is in psychometrics and social psychology for the past five years she’s been working communication science.
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Shlomo Sher: Her PhD dissertation focus on answering the fundamental questions of trolling in the online gaming context and that’s why she’s here she’s the person we want to talk to about trolling and video games.
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Shlomo Sher: she’s interviewed Trolls explored the gaming report function and run experiments with gamers to figure out who Trolls why what happens in the aftermath.
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Shlomo Sher: After spending a year studying content moderation and social media practices she’s now refocus on studying trolling victims, Dr cook welcome to the show Thank you.
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Chrissy Cook: Great to be here.
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Shlomo Sher: Alright, so let’s just dive right into it, you know Andy and I got I think in our last episode and then I could not even decide what greasing was.
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Shlomo Sher: What is it what is a troll.
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Shlomo Sher: How would you define what a troll is.
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Chrissy Cook: So, to be totally honest with you this is still a question, even after five years of working on this topic, so I have a working definition that I like to use.
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Chrissy Cook: But i’d be lying if it said, if I said that it didn’t get its own share of criticism, so.
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Chrissy Cook: Other trolling researchers listening today I know this is not the alpha and omega of trolling but what I like to use is trolling is the instrumental exploitation of either website chat working mechanics at another person’s expense.
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Chrissy Cook: So that he key parts of that instrumental means Charles do what they do for a reason it’s not just one town destruction all the time there’s they get something out of it exploitation there’s always some kind of victim.
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Chrissy Cook: And the mechanics are also important there’s usually they’re using existing mechanics most of the time, in order to do what they do to troll.
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Chrissy Cook: So that’s my working definition that’s what I use, I think it accomplices, a lot of different areas of trolling even outside of things.
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Chrissy Cook: But there is some idea that there might be more to it than that there could be elements of provocation so.
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Chrissy Cook: there’s provoking in there, somewhere, a lot of people will say some people are more keen on the idea of deception so there’s a couple options in there, but that’s that’s what I like to use that’s the core.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, since your expert here, I think, will will will go with yours.
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A Ashcraft: And it does seem to to separate itself from from people who are hackers so this doesn’t cover hacking right, this is existing mechanics so they’re not they’re not breaking a game in any way.
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Chrissy Cook: not usually so to me, and this is something that I, I guess, I have different than a lot of trolling these switches I don’t consider trolling hacking or packing trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: I consider once you’re hacking then you’re into cyber crimes and you’re doing something that can be illegal to me if you can, if it’s illegal I hesitate to call it, for one.
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A Ashcraft: Right right oh interesting.
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Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: So just out of an if I buy a hack right ah.
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um.
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Chrissy Cook: Then, then we’re getting into then we’re getting into tricky waters.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah, then I would say you you’re aware, you could say you’re supporting a troll or you could say you’re supporting a hacker or you say you are a troll who is using a hacker’s device it depends on your definition right, it could it could go in French different ways.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, actually, I was thinking, I always assumed that the ladder but awesome okay so.
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Shlomo Sher: you’ve researched Trolls what are Trolls like i’m asking i’m throwing the super big question at you.
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Chrissy Cook: um so it really depends there’s so much and I I would love to get hard and fast answers here, but I think you’re going to find a lot of a lot of my answers are going to be it depends, because such a big topic so.
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Chrissy Cook: there’s some that are absolutely as malicious as we think they are, however, those ones almost never participate in research and so they’re very hard to get Ahold of.
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Chrissy Cook: These are the ones that you know might delve more into the cybercrime area of things, these are the ones that my docs you if you miss them.
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Chrissy Cook: These are the ones who might find your information, even if they don’t docs you have to use it for their own purposes, this kind of situation, the ones that I talk to you and the ones that i’ve interviewed are actually oddly helpful i’ve never interviewed more.
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Chrissy Cook: eager group of people to talk about what they do.
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Chrissy Cook: which I found really interesting and unexpected when I started.
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Shlomo Sher: As in the sense of the group of people that feel misunderstood and they want you to explain them.
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Chrissy Cook: Sometimes Sometimes I get that other times it’s not that they want to be understood so much it’s it’s more that they’re happy that someone’s trying to.
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Chrissy Cook: They don’t really want you to explain them necessarily I think they’re they’re happy to do that themselves, they just want people to listen.
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Chrissy Cook: So I also had the the group that I interviewed.
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Chrissy Cook: I guess, I had the distinction, but they call themselves Trolls too.
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Chrissy Cook: So they probably are a different breed than the people who are they keep we would say they troll they wouldn’t say.
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Chrissy Cook: So right there’s that distinction too.
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Shlomo Sher: So in thinking of the majority of Trolls do you think, and I know this is this is part of the difficulty of research right because you can only talk to.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, maybe, maybe since now you’re doing research on victims, maybe that’s a way of getting through it from the other direction right but yeah there’s definitely a limitation of research that you could only talk to people who will talk to you, but do you get the sense that.
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Shlomo Sher: Most Trolls do self identify that they don’t identify they think they’re there would be wrongly mislabeled troll.
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Chrissy Cook: I think it depends on what they do in terms of trolling I think in games, since this is the ethics in video games I think games they mostly self.
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Chrissy Cook: I think most Trolls know that the Trolls.
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Chrissy Cook: And what identifies Trolls in games, the ones that you may not get true or they may not call themselves Trolls so much or more in the political sphere.
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A Ashcraft: Right sure.
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Chrissy Cook: Because, then it then it can be a job and depending on which government you’re working for, which is.
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Great.
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Chrissy Cook: But i’d say the ones in games like you know you get the classic archetypes, the more the trickster type if you go back to Julian devil back in 93.
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Chrissy Cook: You have the Raven cyberspace they call it, so you go to the more the the tricksters or the ones who are masters of the war, they send the someone that knew addison news out to the valley of death and old ashrams call for the.
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Chrissy Cook: people listening who know that game.
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Chrissy Cook: You know you.
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Chrissy Cook: knows you know yeah there you go, you know you send you send the level five up to Yvonne and watch them get killed, you know that more they know what they’re doing.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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A Ashcraft: Vision they become masters of this game, and this is the way they show their mastery.
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Chrissy Cook: Exactly that’s quite common in the gaming context.
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Shlomo Sher: um can we talk about motivations so essentially because part of me like since you mentioned the political thing, let me take a quick digression and we’ll come back to this.
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Shlomo Sher: Because I can see what some people might call for Trolls but for political cause might say look there are values that are pushing me, you know I am essentially a an.
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Shlomo Sher: an agent for an agent of chaos, but for justice right do you get something like that in games, where people are passionate enough about the Games, where you know they feel that way about about the games that they troll.
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Chrissy Cook: Absolutely um interestingly, all of the women Trolls that i’ve interviewed fit into that category.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah so the number one motivation for female Trolls now granted tiny sample size here are very few in comparison to the mail Trolls.
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Chrissy Cook: Go to at least that you can get Ahold of.
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Chrissy Cook: But they fall under what I would call the vigilante troll archetype so they troll those who troll them first, so the motivation is his revenge and to sort of clean up the platform whatever game, it was I believe both the female Trolls league of legends in the sample, but I have.
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Chrissy Cook: Okay, so they wanted to give them a taste of their medicine and they wouldn’t troll anyone who didn’t troll numbers.
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Chrissy Cook: So you get that you also have people who have some kind of ideology, you get that definitely more in the political sphere, but in game shows you you do get that as well.
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Shlomo Sher: Do you get like game Trolls bringing political ideology into the game and exercising that in the game, as part of their trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: Sometimes yeah although usually in games it’s usually done in a more.
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Chrissy Cook: sort of playful way you do get Trolls who bring in their political and they’re just social ideologies as well.
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Chrissy Cook: that’s not the type of trolling I research for those who are interested in that kind of trolling Dr shawna Gray, is an excellent resource she does a lot of racial race based trolling and toxicity and gains I think she has a couple of books out on that now.
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Chrissy Cook: But I don’t focus on that kind, so I focus on more more general general topics of trolling but in terms of bringing political stuff that i’ve seen in my own research.
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Chrissy Cook: During the initial trump election period, it was very popular in CS go counter strike global offensive to have Americans have a username of Donald trump and someone else will have a username have a lot of your Putin and they completely ignore the game and just role play these two people.
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Chrissy Cook: In the game.
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Chrissy Cook: it’s fascinating yeah so that was that was kind of a fad I get the impression, for a time in CS go.
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Shlomo Sher: Would they.
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Shlomo Sher: Would they trolling the other players in doing this, or.
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Chrissy Cook: They were trolling everybody, they were trolling each other, they were the other players, they were just essentially ignoring the game and just living out this political role play in a very usually very silly way.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Chrissy Cook: But it was annoying.
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A Ashcraft: Oh, it was it wasn’t like I was, I was going to ask is it, is it not just entertaining to the other players, I don’t think I would be entertained by that.
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Chrissy Cook: But yeah I think it’s probably a mix.
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Shlomo Sher: If someone’s in your squad and they’re not you know and they’re not doing their part.
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Shlomo Sher: And you’re losing right that that might that might affect you, you know again and or if you’re winning and it’s just a side it’s some.
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Shlomo Sher: interesting thing that makes the game more fun it’s interesting right notice the person we call them the troll could potentially be doing the same thing, but with different results.
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Shlomo Sher: So I guess chrissy let me part of the thing that’s makes making someone a troll right was the intention, yes right to do it, so I guess, in this case, if you’re playing as Putin or trump if you’re even if you’re fun if your intention was to mess up other people’s games you’re still trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah exactly and at me yeah it can go it can go so many different ways, but I would say what Andy the same it’s going to be a mix, there are some.
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Chrissy Cook: People who are going to be entertained by it.
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Chrissy Cook: And you get that outside of games to like Ken Ken m is one of the most famous Trolls of all time and the social media world, and there are people who think he’s hilarious posting these totally ridiculous.
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Chrissy Cook: Non sequitur captions and images and other people who get super annoyed and who will comment and flame him be like Why are you doing this, why are you so stupid that that’s a joke right, so you, you get that in in games too.
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Chrissy Cook: I think you touched on an interesting point, though, that, as you go as a competitive game, so you really need everyone to be speeding on your team in order to win and winning is a thing.
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A Ashcraft: And that’s what most people play the game, for example, most people don’t play the game for political theater.
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Chrissy Cook: No, no, I mean hey there’s probably a niche market but vast majority are in there to to win to get their team winning so.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah sorry go ahead.
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Shlomo Sher: Though it’s interesting What if you know if most people play it for a different purpose I just I remember, I had a student that was talking about.
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Shlomo Sher: One of the final fantasy games in some sort of multiplayer mode where essentially he said, the only people that were still having fun, there were the Trolls.
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Shlomo Sher: And he thought the Trolls were the only ones really playing the game well.
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Shlomo Sher: Interesting yeah you know, because no one, because the what’s the point of the game so know if the point is to win right, but if the point is no longer to win and if there’s no good wind conditions, maybe the point is to have fun and they were the ones, having fun.
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Chrissy Cook: I can absolutely see that and I i’ve been fortunate in my life to live in many different areas of the world, and I found that there was a real gaming distinction.
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Chrissy Cook: Between when I lived in North America, and when I looked in Europe and in North America games, you could play them casually, even if they were a competitive game, you know I I used to play, you know league of legends some of these some of these esports titles.
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Chrissy Cook: I was never any good, but I never had the intention of being good I played because the game, I want to have fun and when I went to Europe, I found that was less of a thing.
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Chrissy Cook: Is.
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Chrissy Cook: Really yeah there was a you really didn’t get he played in esports title you played it to be good at the game you played it’s when.
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Chrissy Cook: You need it to be competitive and I thought that was I don’t know how much of that was a cultural difference, or how much of it was just I hung out with a lot of sports guys I don’t know what.
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Chrissy Cook: could teach my.
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A Ashcraft: sample size.
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Chrissy Cook: sample size it.
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Shlomo Sher: wasn’t a.
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Chrissy Cook: Yes.
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A Ashcraft: I have seen both of those attitudes on display in like magic the gathering tournament sort of play right.
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A Ashcraft: yeah whether you know Friday night magic it’s not meant to be casual or is that meant to be, and you know, some people will take it more casually and some people take it more competitively.
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Chrissy Cook: Absolutely yeah I would absolutely be a casual magic players well, but I would, but I would also never go to Friday magic because i’m.
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Chrissy Cook: too scared of ruining someone’s time, who was competitive, so it yeah you get a lot of these kind of individual game cultures and then you add on to that the regional server cultures and.
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A Ashcraft: Then.
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Chrissy Cook: You get a lot of mixing going on, so you can a lot of different different kinds of settings and and coming back to trolling I do find that trolling was often.
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Chrissy Cook: Taken worse in Europe than it was in North America.
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Chrissy Cook: It seemed to have a more Now this is anecdotal, this is not research, right now, but my friends in your seem to have a harder time it or got more annoyed by it.
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Chrissy Cook: Then, my friends in North America did it.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting my my my first my first impression is we’ve gotten used in the US to a confrontational divisive society.
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Shlomo Sher: Where maybe so there’s still more social cohesion in Europe.
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Shlomo Sher: You know that that is a possibility but but going back It just seems that you know this idea of i’m thinking back to the CSO example that you gave the CS go right where.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, it seems that the more competitive, people are, the more there during the when the less they have patience for someone who’s just there to have fun and having fun might involve.
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Shlomo Sher: You know poking at people, but what if you’re like i’m just here to have fun and you guys are playing a different game and my trolling consists of just trying to have fun, which I know and knows you guys.
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Chrissy Cook: That you’ve just described my husband.
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Chrissy Cook: This is why we don’t play games together.
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Shlomo Sher: sighs your husband, are you married to a troll.
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Chrissy Cook: I am absolutely.
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Chrissy Cook: Oh definitely self avowed.
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Chrissy Cook: A more me about but.
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Chrissy Cook: should be fair to him.
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Shlomo Sher: Right up till.
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Chrissy Cook: It oh sure, yes, I am the troll troll bride I I don’t have the fancy hair someday i’ll do that well cruella look but.
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Chrissy Cook: But ya know so he he absolutely would fall under that where he travels to have fun in these competitive games and I do want to give you a counter example trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: I believe this was from wow and it’s to date, my favorite gaming troll example is from my original interviews that I did back in 2013 I think.
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Chrissy Cook: And he described a time where in well I guess people I never played, while I kind of my mo days ended before while became thing but.
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Chrissy Cook: There was a time when it was very common to just leave your character fk so your character would just be standing there when you went to did whatever it is, you were doing.
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offline.
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Chrissy Cook: And so, this this troll that I interviewed he would go and he would push characters off of cliffs who were at okay.
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Chrissy Cook: So he would just kind of like force force the Avatar off a cliff and they would fall and so when they came to their suddenly in the ocean or the character respond or whatever the case would be.
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Chrissy Cook: and apparently a lot of people found this hilarious, and so they would join in when they came back so eventually they basically had this giant conga line of Trolls pushing people off.
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Chrissy Cook: cliffs in wow.
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Chrissy Cook: And this was.
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Chrissy Cook: This was they’re trolling, this is the big troll escapade.
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Chrissy Cook: was pushing a fk people off cliffs and wow.
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Shlomo Sher: And so fun and you’re adding a dimension, you know part of what we were talking before you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Before we start the episode Andy and I were talking about this idea that you know different kind of Trolls because trolling just seems right off the BAT super rock right but.
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Shlomo Sher: Why and we’re talking about how different kinds of Trolls trolling might be wrong for different reasons, and maybe not always wrong depending on you know the projected outcome, or anything like that mm hmm right.
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Shlomo Sher: And here we seem to have maybe an example of yeah that definitely sounds like trolling.
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Shlomo Sher: But it seems to have added a nice fun dimension to people.
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Chrissy Cook: Absolutely.
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Shlomo Sher: And again.
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Chrissy Cook: I think the key here is that it wasn’t in CS go, it was in an emo.
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Chrissy Cook: Right and.
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A Ashcraft: dogs very different.
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Chrissy Cook: hugely is hugely different because animals are competitive, you could say bit more than a PV unless you’re on a.
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Chrissy Cook: Oh gosh it’s been so long, I.
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Chrissy Cook: can’t remember.
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raids.
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Chrissy Cook: Yes, right.
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A Ashcraft: I freaked out, it was in and request it was it had a different name, then when I forgotten what it is.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so yeah you’re going on raids, but you know there’s the big social aspect of it, and ultimately it’s not like you’re gonna forever when any one of these quests or raids.
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A Ashcraft: Right right, but in that situation, you have teammates who are counting on you to do to be there and the rates are quite difficult and you could you know I mean, I guess, one of the it turned out to be false but they hold on Oh, it was super famous.
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A Ashcraft: Jenkins leroy Jenkins, thank you.
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Yes.
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A Ashcraft: would have been you know when it first came up we all thought it was you know, we thought it was real, we thought it was some guy who, just like got involved in one of these raids and then decided to just like completely blow it for everybody.
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Shlomo Sher: what’s what who is leroy jake.
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Chrissy Cook: Oh uh.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t know this.
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Chrissy Cook: leroy Jenkins was again We know now that it was not it’s one of the earliest instances of trolling, although not for the reason we thought it was right.
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Chrissy Cook: So it actually was more of a bait and switch but it basically it was this guy in a raid.
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Chrissy Cook: And the opening scene, you have the guild master talking to one of his members of the guild she’s calculating the percentage of success 33 percenters.
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Chrissy Cook: They were going on and they’re having this big discussion and leroy Jenkins, the character is a he’s another character in skilled appears to be a fk.
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Chrissy Cook: And then suddenly coast times up let’s do this the screens leroy Jenkins runs into the rate and everyone else’s like Oh, oh no oh no save him save him.
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Chrissy Cook: More colorful language and they run in and everyone guys and and they’re like all we suck why’d you do that, and these famous final line is up, we still got chicken and and that’s and MC.
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Chrissy Cook: So we later learned this stage but, at the time, we thought it was just some dude, who was a fk getting this chicken and then decides he’s gonna have his epic here a moment and ruins it for everybody.
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A Ashcraft: Right right yeah it was very it was very believable.
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Chrissy Cook: It was.
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A Ashcraft: It was.
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A Ashcraft: A believable staged event.
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Shlomo Sher: cool right okay so so we got this difference when the raids, obviously, where people are counting on you.
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Shlomo Sher: And just let’s say regular playtime right it’s something like something like wow where the troll like that you’re doing the same thing for the same reason, but you might have very, very different impacts.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah okay so let’s let’s get to the impact, a little bit so right now you’re looking at truly victim so right, so if we’re going to talk about the morality of trolling.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know, first of all, so we need some sort of idea of what is the actual impact on victim so maybe, first of all, what is a victim of trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: So linkedin has trolling is at the very basic level, anyone who is excluded or in my definition I use is at the at the expense of part of the troll.
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Chrissy Cook: Definition So these are people who have been impacted in some way or used in some way by the troll So this is the newbie you send off to.
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Chrissy Cook: The super high level area for your own entertainment, this is the person you flamed are, who was the target of your flames, so this is a person who you have used or targeted in some way in order to carry out your troll.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay um and.
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Shlomo Sher: How, most people deal with being trolled.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, so as you’re looking at these victims, how do.
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Shlomo Sher: They deal with it.
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Chrissy Cook: Honestly, we don’t know yet, and I think that’s a huge issue so again, if you look at Dr grades workshop great she she focuses on that a lot more, but the type of trolling that she looks at often has a very racial element.
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Chrissy Cook: or a very sexist element is specifically.
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Chrissy Cook: So in that case you really get the same results as you would with with offline racism sexism.
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Chrissy Cook: you’re getting pretty up to very severe anxiety depression symptoms, you get an identity crisis in some cases, you know you’re getting these very, very severe symptoms, because racism and sexism are horrible, no matter what they happen.
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Chrissy Cook: right when you don’t have those elements when it’s the more playful kind of trolling or when it’s maybe more political ideology kind of trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: It we really don’t know because a lot of the research in that world borrows from cyberbullying.
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Chrissy Cook: So a lot of people kind of we have this basic assumption that it’s going to be similar to cyber bullying, but there’s actually not a lot of studies that look at victims.
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Chrissy Cook: without looking at them through a specific lens so either through feminism literature or critical race theory or through through some kind of theoretical theoretical lens yeah I would say so.
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Chrissy Cook: Right now, we, we think that it’s it’s anxiety kind of issues we get we know we get people who stopped playing the games.
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Chrissy Cook: that’s that’s one consequence.
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Chrissy Cook: just leaving.
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Chrissy Cook: You get people who become Trolls themselves because they see that that’s how it goes in this game that’s how this Community works, so they turn into Trolls themselves.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah you get all the same kind of coping strategies and the same kind of consequences that you would with cyberbullying so far i’m hoping to add a little more nuance to that, in future, studies and in this post Doc.
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Chrissy Cook: But yeah I would say that’s an understanding, right now, of what victims experience.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah that’s that’s that’s interesting I you know it’s interesting to think about how difference talking about race and sex, you know core aspects of your identity i’m assuming religion, you know if.
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Shlomo Sher: Religious needs you’re right when volunteer ids core aspects of your identity that you know.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re also sensitive about.
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Chrissy Cook: can be so different.
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Shlomo Sher: than you know you messed up by Cisco match, I mean yeah we we’ve talked about these things and kind of you know laughable terms up to this point.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah but to be harassed because you’re a woman in the game.
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Shlomo Sher: relentlessly right can obviously be a very, very different different type of situation.
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Chrissy Cook: Absolutely yeah I I haven’t haven’t looked at that as much specifically in my own work, but I know there’s lots of work out there.
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Chrissy Cook: That are that.
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Shlomo Sher: Are the Trolls so is this a let’s say going after the I don’t know if I say more personal stuff and more hardcore identity stuff is that something that some sort of specific subsets of Trolls do, or is this just kind of part of general trolling activity.
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I think.
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Chrissy Cook: It could be, and it could not be I think for some Trolls they specifically target certain people.
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Chrissy Cook: There are definitely Trolls who will only target certain who only target women or who will we target a certain religious group or LGBT Q members or black people or Jewish people or Whatever the case may be, there are people like that, who have specific targets in mind.
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Chrissy Cook: However, I do think it bleeds into the more general even the more playful side, sometimes too.
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Chrissy Cook: I mean the classic go make me a sandwich that I think almost every woman on the Internet concert, at least once, if not more than once.
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Chrissy Cook: Right, so there are it bleeds in I say there’s both there and then there are some Trolls who absolutely would never touch those subjects with a 10 foot pole.
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Chrissy Cook: Who are purely there to make conga lines and wow you know.
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Chrissy Cook: You have you have a lot of variety within trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: And I hear some tests.
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A Ashcraft: And I suspect that that.
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A Ashcraft: That that really harmful identity based trolling.
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A Ashcraft: harms not only the person who’s the target, but it also affects nearby people right.
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A Ashcraft: Absolutely, people who are not necessarily the the directed target, but who share something with that with the target.
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A Ashcraft: And it’s meant to I suspect.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah and I think a lot of these identity based Trolls that they have an ideology, they want to push you know they they want people to agree with their with their trolling.
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Chrissy Cook: You get the same with political Although some people political is very much a part of their identity and some people it’s not.
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Chrissy Cook: But you have this same idea of pushing an idea that you believe something is wrong or right.
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Chrissy Cook: Coming really into ethics and morality you you believe you really believe what you’re saying some cases.
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Shlomo Sher: So, Chris if we take the example you gave of you know, go make me a sandwich.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah right.
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Shlomo Sher: Is that the sort of thing that you think someone is pushing an ideology or just they’re just looking for whatever will piss you off.
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Chrissy Cook: The i’d say the ladder, in that case that’s pretty team as far as strolls go there, there are definitely some women who are going to respond to that more.
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Chrissy Cook: More emotionally than others, though, depending on your own life history where you’re from what you do that kind of thing.
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Chrissy Cook: But that one i’ve rarely seen that one be tended as a real jab.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, like that.
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Chrissy Cook: That one’s usually more playful the the ones the sexes trolling can get a lot worse than that.
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A Ashcraft: And when it.
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Chrissy Cook: enters into the world of sexual harassment, then we’re getting into the real.
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Chrissy Cook: real identity based right.
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A Ashcraft: And it doesn’t take long for the tour to get to that level.
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Chrissy Cook: No, no, it really doesn’t.
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A Ashcraft: Like there’s there’s no there’s no slow ramp up to that it’s like boom you’re there.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah immediately.
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A Ashcraft: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Though it’s interesting right because you know you’re talking about at least what I got is kind of like has some people draw lines.
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Shlomo Sher: DNS right I you know some Trolls, and I say look i’m going to mess things up in this way, but there are certain places, I don’t go don’t go to let’s say the race and sex right.
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Shlomo Sher: But go make me a sandwich might be a little bit of fun that i’m having messing with someone, even though it’s not yet sexist but or sexist sorry, let me be very clear, it says.
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Shlomo Sher: Here, but it’s not yet let’s say my line for what is really sexist right um do you see a lot of indication that if people who let’s say identifies Trolls.
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Shlomo Sher: But they have kind of lines of morality of what is okay what is not okay to do.
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Chrissy Cook: I think the ones that I interviewed certainly did.
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Chrissy Cook: Again, these are not going to be the most hardcore and i’ll be the first to admit that i’m the it is people who are willing to participate in this.
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Chrissy Cook: But I would say, most of them did where those lines were drawn different pretty dramatically between the individuals, so you had some people who.
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Chrissy Cook: Really, you know they only told other Trolls and that was their whole trolling identity, so it was a very protective defensive kind of thing for them.
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Shlomo Sher: And then you had other role, I mean.
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Chrissy Cook: That that depends on based on the definition ids yes, it is because the behavior is still trolling even your intention is to mess with that person, and you are using the person troll to you and you’re exploiting a mechanism in order to.
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Shlomo Sher: I see them, even if your ultimate justification for this, or you know your ultimate intention might be to you know, bring justice to the world or read the game of this, you know pestilence but you’re still acting from the immediate joy that you’re getting from strolling.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah yeah and even even if it’s, not even if you aren’t enjoying it specifically you’re you’re using the same method it’s the same methodology.
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Chrissy Cook: But I did have at least one participant.
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Chrissy Cook: Now I didn’t go into this hugely in the actual article, but I do remember one participant, who talked pretty extensively about gamer gate, for example.
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Chrissy Cook: And I think that’s an interesting one, when you’re talking about drawing lines, because for him when I talked to I needed marchese and had crossed a line in his mind.
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Chrissy Cook: So for him participation in in gamer gate type activities was actually for the greater good, so in his mind, it was to she protect the Community that he had that was being attacked by this feminist as a woman.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s a great example and yeah that that’s that’s what I was thinking with the political analogy kind of in the.
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Shlomo Sher: Beginning right here, he is i’m is protecting you know, protecting gaming from this outside invader that wants to ruin ruin games.
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A Ashcraft: Right, but he said he’s protecting a very specific just just to make sure that our listeners don’t think that we’re actually defending this.
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Chrissy Cook: Yes, he’s.
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A Ashcraft: very specific and skewed view of what gaming is this is probably is all male and probably all white and.
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A Ashcraft: And and doesn’t include anybody that sits outside of the circle.
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Shlomo Sher: Or, or maybe thought that you’ll give me great really was about ethics in journalism and you know you know, whatever whatever that was but but notice right this this idea of.
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Shlomo Sher: Whether speaking from a moral perspective right, so you know notice from from a moral perspective, we can say somebody like that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, might come from a place where they’re not exercising let’s say sufficient empathy and understanding, maybe they got some facts wrong.
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Shlomo Sher: But you still want to say that you know at least they’re coming from a good place in the sense of you know they’re taking someone that they learn something they love and protecting it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, not as bad as someone who’s just trying to destroy things and mess, you know mess people’s mess mess around with people’s fine.
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Chrissy Cook: yeah and I did I did find myself, it was a very interesting conversation I like I said I also want to be clear, not not at all defending gamer gate, but it was it was an interesting kind of.
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Chrissy Cook: Thought experiment and I guess when you when I was listening to him talk and for him, it was really he really felt like he was defending his community.
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Chrissy Cook: So yeah if you get.
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Chrissy Cook: You get such a huge spectrum when it comes to Trolls and trolling and then their motivations for for doing it, we can kind of put them in little blocks, but even within the blocks, it can differ dramatically.
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Chrissy Cook: So, like in this case he’s he’s he would probably fall under kind of an ideological troll in many ways, at least for the he wasn’t just gamer gate but for this specific part of his his trolling career, so to speak.
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Chrissy Cook: uh he she would fall under this ideological category, but.
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Chrissy Cook: If super different than someone who’s trying to influence the political outcome or or super different from someone who is a vigilante troll who’s trying to take down other Trolls you know, like but they all fall under this kind of idea watchable category.
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Chrissy Cook: And the same with personal enjoyment, you have some people who absolutely there’s tons of personality research that shows that Trolls tend to score really high on sadism scales, or at least higher than average person.
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Chrissy Cook: jockeys I know what a surprise.
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Chrissy Cook: So yeah Trolls tend to score higher and sadism than the average person, so there are some people who, in the personal enjoyment category of motivation they’re really going to be getting off on seeing people have a miserable time.
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Chrissy Cook: And what they want is for the person to.
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Chrissy Cook: Get mad at them and try to blame them or something that’s where they get their personal enjoyment, but then you have other people in the personal enjoyment category.
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Chrissy Cook: You think the game is boring and they’re just trying to shake things up and i’ve even heard of one guy he made his best friend who actually.
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Chrissy Cook: He told the guy the guy thought it was funny they started talking and now like 15 years later they’re still are still buddies so and that’s all within personal enjoyment very sadistic and very pro social within the same category.
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Shlomo Sher: So, and we already have you know, one example of maybe the game, you know trolling making games more interesting with me right from from from well yeah all right um so sometimes it does happen um let’s let’s kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about the Games themselves.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay um, what do you think is the impact on troll of trolling on games and I realized that some games is a really big category.
360
00:44:38.940 –> 00:44:41.790
Chrissy Cook: It is a big category, so I think.
361
00:44:43.980 –> 00:44:58.500
Chrissy Cook: I think it, it can have a lot of different impacts, I think the the most obvious impact is there is a subset of gamers that it is going to leave and they’re just not going to play the game when when they see that it has a really truly community.
362
00:44:59.490 –> 00:45:01.740
A Ashcraft: In a sense of how big event, that is.
363
00:45:02.580 –> 00:45:06.450
Chrissy Cook: I get that it’s a relatively small percentage overall.
364
00:45:07.530 –> 00:45:18.570
Chrissy Cook: There are no prevalence statistics that i’m aware of, or if there are there, America specific, the only prevalence statistics i’ve seen have been in states, the big.
365
00:45:19.680 –> 00:45:23.280
Chrissy Cook: adl, I think, is one of the anti defamation league.
366
00:45:23.400 –> 00:45:25.020
Shlomo Sher: that’s what it’s called a differential again.
367
00:45:25.170 –> 00:45:29.520
Chrissy Cook: that’s the one I only ever see adl so I always forget full force.
368
00:45:32.040 –> 00:45:34.260
Chrissy Cook: yeah, so I think they have some studies out.
369
00:45:35.310 –> 00:45:40.530
Chrissy Cook: Hugh recently did a study on cancel culture which is kind of tangentially related.
370
00:45:41.130 –> 00:45:42.240
Chrissy Cook: But there aren’t a lot of.
371
00:45:42.240 –> 00:45:51.990
Chrissy Cook: Problems statistics and if they do exist, usually they’re owned by the game companies themselves and game company data is notoriously difficult to get a hold of.
372
00:45:53.490 –> 00:45:54.210
Chrissy Cook: As a retention.
373
00:45:54.540 –> 00:45:54.900
sure.
374
00:45:55.980 –> 00:46:14.430
Chrissy Cook: But I, my impression to be that it’s a relatively small proportion, however, I think, if you go into the specific communities, so if you’re going into LGBT Q different racial groups different religious groups, I think it will probably rise.
375
00:46:15.690 –> 00:46:23.790
Chrissy Cook: People who simply leave because they don’t want to deal with it fair and fair play, I hundred percent understand where where you’re coming from there.
376
00:46:23.790 –> 00:46:24.300
A Ashcraft: Oh yeah.
377
00:46:24.930 –> 00:46:31.350
Chrissy Cook: Like that makes total sense, but in the general population, if you just take everyone all together.
378
00:46:32.640 –> 00:46:36.150
Chrissy Cook: I think the numbers of just leaving are still pretty well.
379
00:46:38.520 –> 00:46:42.720
Chrissy Cook: In terms of other impact that it could have on on the Games themselves.
380
00:46:44.100 –> 00:46:47.040
Chrissy Cook: You off and we’ll get new modes.
381
00:46:48.150 –> 00:46:51.510
Chrissy Cook: So I found that I used to I used to play overwatch and.
382
00:46:52.950 –> 00:46:59.520
Chrissy Cook: You know, when people started getting these what they would cultural calls where basically you all play the same character.
383
00:47:00.600 –> 00:47:03.030
Chrissy Cook: And, and it just becomes this.
384
00:47:04.440 –> 00:47:14.820
Chrissy Cook: sort of this very specific play style that everyone does either either to have fun, or because it’s broken, which is you can’t beat this composition.
385
00:47:16.200 –> 00:47:19.320
Chrissy Cook: It can be can be either way it can be broken, or can just facility.
386
00:47:20.460 –> 00:47:23.040
Chrissy Cook: And you get these kind of.
387
00:47:24.450 –> 00:47:25.590
Chrissy Cook: sort of way of playing.
388
00:47:26.640 –> 00:47:39.720
Chrissy Cook: Eventually overwatch changed, and everyone had to be a different character, but then they created a new mode, where it was all the same character mode and then people who wanted to play like that could could go like that, so I do.
389
00:47:39.750 –> 00:47:55.200
Chrissy Cook: Think, in some cases it can drive a little bit of creativity, on the part of the designers because the the game players are making their own ways of playing or trying to to break the game in some way it’s why especially esports titles oh sorry go ahead.
390
00:47:55.350 –> 00:48:04.410
A Ashcraft: yeah as a game designer we find that all the time right people play the Games way differently than we expect them to play the game so, and so, in some cases, it makes sense to us follow the fun.
391
00:48:04.950 –> 00:48:13.860
A Ashcraft: You go all right here’s some people having fun playing the game in a way that’s very different than we anticipated it’s making the game on fun for other people, but it’s fun for them so let’s go ahead and just make a mode.
392
00:48:14.760 –> 00:48:20.130
A Ashcraft: They can play this way with people who like to play this way and not bother with the other people who don’t want to play this game.
393
00:48:21.180 –> 00:48:38.700
Chrissy Cook: Exactly and that’s also think it was wow who did this i’m not sure, but there have also been troll servers where you basically get everyone who’s been reported for trolling or cheating and you put them on the same search together and let the chaos fly so.
394
00:48:39.780 –> 00:48:45.360
Chrissy Cook: that’s that’s also been historically a way to deal with Trolls instead of creating a new mode just create a new server.
395
00:48:46.290 –> 00:48:53.820
Shlomo Sher: Does that work putting I mean, because it seems if I was a troll and they put me, I would just go somewhere else, because what’s the point I can’t troll anybody there.
396
00:48:54.840 –> 00:49:00.150
Chrissy Cook: I get the impression that that happens, a lot I haven’t seen I haven’t seen any studies on that specifically.
397
00:49:01.200 –> 00:49:04.920
Chrissy Cook: But uh yeah I think once they figure out what’s what’s gone wrong.
398
00:49:05.430 –> 00:49:08.850
Chrissy Cook: Exactly go create a new account go back to the.
399
00:49:08.970 –> 00:49:11.250
Chrissy Cook: real world, so to speak.
400
00:49:11.910 –> 00:49:12.750
Okay.
401
00:49:14.010 –> 00:49:18.960
Shlomo Sher: What What about this up i’ve never actually reported troll what happens if I reported troll.
402
00:49:19.920 –> 00:49:27.000
Chrissy Cook: Oh man that’s gonna that’s company that depends on the company some companies are much more proactive about that than others.
403
00:49:28.710 –> 00:49:42.720
Chrissy Cook: So sometimes the honest answer is nothing sometimes nothing happens it’s like crossing the crosswalk button it’s just to make you feel better it’s not going to speed up the lights, you know it’s very much a placebo thing in some things.
404
00:49:44.130 –> 00:49:55.140
Chrissy Cook: Other games they’ve got a lot of different systems, so I know, probably the most well known, would be the League of legends tribunal system, which is not not in.
405
00:49:55.650 –> 00:50:03.510
Chrissy Cook: Our it’s not in play anymore, they don’t use it anymore, but, at the beginning, once you hit a certain level in game, you could join the Tribunal.
406
00:50:04.650 –> 00:50:13.830
Chrissy Cook: And what would happen is people who got reported enough time, so if you don’t report it once it was rare that you’d end up at the Tribunal, but if you’ve got recorded two three times.
407
00:50:14.280 –> 00:50:26.610
Chrissy Cook: Especially for the same events, the game would put together sort of a case file for you, which would then get sent to the Tribunal and a group of high level players.
408
00:50:27.660 –> 00:50:37.110
Chrissy Cook: would review these cases, they would see the chat logs and they would see the reason further for why you got reported and they would see the endgame statistics.
409
00:50:38.010 –> 00:50:54.960
Chrissy Cook: So how well you played, basically, and they would decide whether or not this person deserve to be punished for what they did, and if they said yes, then the game company would issue usually a temporary ban sometimes a full band if it was severe enough.
410
00:50:56.640 –> 00:51:03.330
Chrissy Cook: And then, sometimes if they said no, then the person, which is the ignored, nothing would happen to them.
411
00:51:04.230 –> 00:51:15.480
Chrissy Cook: Nowadays, I believe all reports go directly to write games at this point if I, if I understand the new system correctly and I believe they have a specific team of people that deals with with reports.
412
00:51:15.660 –> 00:51:17.340
A Ashcraft: And they and they look at everyone.
413
00:51:17.940 –> 00:51:19.350
Chrissy Cook: Yes, exactly.
414
00:51:20.850 –> 00:51:29.700
Chrissy Cook: So, but if you talk to people play the game it sure doesn’t seem that way seems like like the reports nothing happens.
415
00:51:30.780 –> 00:51:39.030
Chrissy Cook: So it can vary a lot in the other Games will issue automatic bands i’ve heard of become a thing if they target.
416
00:51:39.990 –> 00:51:49.200
Chrissy Cook: If you get racist or sexist language yeah so they have basically like an advanced chat filter essentially well not that a profanity filter is that advanced but.
417
00:51:50.100 –> 00:51:56.100
Chrissy Cook: They detected immediately, and if you get you kicked and and you’re in the game immediately.
418
00:51:56.640 –> 00:52:11.940
Chrissy Cook: So it’s it really depends on the company and their own policies, exactly how reports are dealt with, but across the board with gamers most people find them to be ineffective they’re they’re not they’re not doing their job well enough good.
419
00:52:12.420 –> 00:52:21.150
A Ashcraft: Frequently there’s no feedback at all, like you have to just notice that the person you report, it is no longer around there’s no reporting back to the person who reported.
420
00:52:22.530 –> 00:52:30.300
A Ashcraft: And so you don’t I mean games are all about feedback and so when they don’t get that sort of feedback within a game situation that looks like something’s broken.
421
00:52:30.960 –> 00:52:38.910
A Ashcraft: Even if it’s actually working as planned, it looks broken because you’re expecting feedback because you’re playing a game and everything and games always provide feedback for everything.
422
00:52:40.710 –> 00:52:45.060
A Ashcraft: yeah So what about reporting as a trolling behavior.
423
00:52:46.290 –> 00:52:54.510
Chrissy Cook: hmm we do see that we and we cover that in a study we recently presented talking about prevalence reporting.
424
00:52:56.160 –> 00:52:58.650
Chrissy Cook: it’s not super common thankfully.
425
00:52:59.790 –> 00:53:11.520
Chrissy Cook: But I think probably again i’m we’re getting that research bias, where the people who would participate in research, probably not the same people who would report for for the walls.
426
00:53:13.140 –> 00:53:23.370
Chrissy Cook: But you do definitely get that where you have fake reports often threatening to report, I would say is more common than actually pushing the button at the end of the game.
427
00:53:23.820 –> 00:53:30.840
Chrissy Cook: You know if you don’t do this i’m going to report you if you don’t or if you don’t stop doing this i’m going to report you.
428
00:53:32.040 –> 00:53:36.840
Chrissy Cook: and often at least from what i’ve seen often that has to do with gameplay.
429
00:53:37.890 –> 00:53:51.390
Chrissy Cook: So it’s it’s usually Oh, you know you suck in this game, if you don’t get better i’m going to report you which interestingly in some games, you can, and they have a specific category for that cold unskilled play.
430
00:53:53.250 –> 00:53:59.220
Chrissy Cook: So if they use that, then I believe that’s only supposed to affect the matchmaking if you missed that.
431
00:53:59.640 –> 00:53:59.880
Chrissy Cook: Okay.
432
00:54:00.630 –> 00:54:07.170
Shlomo Sher: But interesting that, yes, if you’re in let’s say you can intentionally play poorly to mess up your team.
433
00:54:07.560 –> 00:54:09.450
Chrissy Cook: So then there’s different categories for that.
434
00:54:09.540 –> 00:54:13.020
Chrissy Cook: Okay, then there’s other categories that are more specific.
435
00:54:14.580 –> 00:54:29.040
Chrissy Cook: So, then you can say okay this person is purposely dying or they’re entering or they’re they’re doing something specific that that’s not letting our kill stealing probably most popular one.
436
00:54:30.300 –> 00:54:46.080
Chrissy Cook: So you have, the more specific categories, but unskilled play is really originally intention was it supposed to be for people who are not playing in the correct skill level who are somehow got matched into this way tougher group of people, for example.
437
00:54:46.320 –> 00:54:49.560
A Ashcraft: Right and the only way to really know that is to have players tell you.
438
00:54:50.160 –> 00:54:50.850
A Ashcraft: Exactly.
439
00:54:51.030 –> 00:54:57.540
A Ashcraft: And the player who’s who’s unskilled just doesn’t necessarily know it somebody else and it’s not necessarily a.
440
00:54:58.800 –> 00:55:04.260
A Ashcraft: An anger thing or even though you’ve ruined my game thing it’s like wait, am I you’re in the wrong place, you need to.
441
00:55:04.260 –> 00:55:04.470
A Ashcraft: Go.
442
00:55:04.770 –> 00:55:05.790
A Ashcraft: You need to go back.
443
00:55:06.540 –> 00:55:06.870
Chrissy Cook: You.
444
00:55:06.960 –> 00:55:08.940
A Ashcraft: Get back to remedial play.
445
00:55:10.440 –> 00:55:11.160
Chrissy Cook: Exactly.
446
00:55:11.430 –> 00:55:22.770
Shlomo Sher: Let me ask both of you guys because um do you feel like God I you know it’s it’s it’s hard to ask us we’re talking, I mean I knew this would happen when we came in.
447
00:55:22.800 –> 00:55:24.210
A Ashcraft: You know, we invited you to see that.
448
00:55:24.360 –> 00:55:33.480
Shlomo Sher: we’re talking about Trolls, but of course we keep talking about and then there’s this kind of troll in this kind of trolling this kind of troll and none of these categories are really hard you know.
449
00:55:33.780 –> 00:55:45.900
Shlomo Sher: Hard categories right because people move in between them, but what do you think would be realistic justice in games, giving the existence of Troy of Trolls.
450
00:55:46.470 –> 00:55:53.820
Shlomo Sher: Because you know when Andy when Andy talks about you know you never hear what happens that’s a really good point that that could be the feeling of injustice.
451
00:55:54.120 –> 00:56:05.400
Shlomo Sher: Right, because you I never find out that the person that wrong me got you know got punished i’m curious what both of you think would be kind of appropriate that the just way to deal with Trolls.
452
00:56:08.340 –> 00:56:11.010
Chrissy Cook: That is a tough tough question.
453
00:56:12.180 –> 00:56:19.590
Chrissy Cook: So I can really only speak from from personal at this point I don’t think there’s any research that can really.
454
00:56:21.270 –> 00:56:26.220
Chrissy Cook: hundred percent talk about this in its entirety, without missing out parts, you know.
455
00:56:27.540 –> 00:56:29.700
Shlomo Sher: I don’t know if research can answer this question this.
456
00:56:29.700 –> 00:56:30.390
Chrissy Cook: Is yeah.
457
00:56:30.480 –> 00:56:31.470
Shlomo Sher: This is a justice.
458
00:56:32.160 –> 00:56:33.390
Shlomo Sher: mistakes and not gonna help you.
459
00:56:33.390 –> 00:56:35.160
Shlomo Sher: So, despite tell you what people think.
460
00:56:35.790 –> 00:56:36.270
yeah.
461
00:56:39.270 –> 00:56:41.160
Shlomo Sher: yeah this is this quality.
462
00:56:41.190 –> 00:56:47.970
Shlomo Sher: You know I mean, and even if we got you know qualitative research on this, the question of justice is just what do you guys think that’s fair.
463
00:56:48.660 –> 00:57:04.800
Chrissy Cook: yeah I think i’m real i’m a real believer in in something that I can’t remember the academic name, but it is it’s the idea of justice where.
464
00:57:05.550 –> 00:57:20.850
Chrissy Cook: You, the the two parties can come together and come to an agreement so it’s not really punitive so much there might be a punitive punitive element, but it’s where you, you know you get the apology.
465
00:57:21.000 –> 00:57:23.520
Shlomo Sher: You need right, so this is that a reconciliation.
466
00:57:25.770 –> 00:57:26.070
Chrissy Cook: Yes.
467
00:57:26.100 –> 00:57:34.560
Shlomo Sher: Right, so it can still your justice right, but the whole point is it’s it’s not to punish it’s not to create a better society it’s to create a healthier community.
468
00:57:36.240 –> 00:57:45.150
Shlomo Sher: right would that’s the idea that yeah and if there’s ever a Community you know the gaming community would be definitely be a community that that that would fit in.
469
00:57:45.780 –> 00:57:53.340
Chrissy Cook: Exactly so, especially in the context of teams and I think in if you’re exiting games, the question gets bigger.
470
00:57:53.940 –> 00:57:55.290
Chrissy Cook: Because you’re talking.
471
00:57:55.410 –> 00:58:05.400
Chrissy Cook: about political, religious you’re talking about a lot of things on these existing games, too, but games are fundamentally a Community again community.
472
00:58:05.970 –> 00:58:18.630
Chrissy Cook: So I think the ideal would be some form of reconciliation story justice where you know one person gets their apology, they get that feedback that they’re wanting there’s an opportunity to talk.
473
00:58:20.010 –> 00:58:26.970
Chrissy Cook: And there is appropriate punishment for what’s happened, maybe not the ban hammer.
474
00:58:27.450 –> 00:58:29.160
Chrissy Cook: Maybe it’s something.
475
00:58:30.480 –> 00:58:35.790
Chrissy Cook: Maybe you you can’t purchase skins and again I don’t know, and this would, of course, dependent severity and what they did.
476
00:58:37.860 –> 00:58:48.780
Chrissy Cook: But I also know that there are gamers who that’s never going to be an option for them that that’s not what they want, and I.
477
00:58:48.990 –> 00:58:50.700
A Ashcraft: Think as victims or as Trolls.
478
00:58:51.090 –> 00:58:51.570
A Ashcraft: Both.
479
00:58:51.870 –> 00:58:59.520
Chrissy Cook: Okay, both there’s going to be people who don’t want to forgive or don’t think that person deserves forgiveness on the inside, or whatever they did.
480
00:59:00.090 –> 00:59:10.380
Chrissy Cook: And there’s going to be people who do not care about what they did to their victim and they don’t want to hear what they have saying, or what they think.
481
00:59:11.460 –> 00:59:12.510
Chrissy Cook: they’re always.
482
00:59:12.570 –> 00:59:23.850
Shlomo Sher: yeah you know I, I want to say it, I don’t know if this is right, you know that maybe in this case games are different than society, or at least the perception of what people are doing.
483
00:59:24.300 –> 00:59:34.080
Shlomo Sher: Because right, the right D and I can’t believe I can remember the sort of justice that you’re talking about but originally comes from Nelson Nelson Mandela and the South Africa with the truth of.
484
00:59:34.110 –> 00:59:42.090
Shlomo Sher: Conciliation Committee and in that context right bringing the South African Community together after apartheid was such a big big deal.
485
00:59:43.350 –> 00:59:53.460
Shlomo Sher: And I think people from every from every side could understand right D, the interest in humanity of the people that they were talking to.
486
00:59:54.180 –> 00:59:56.760
Shlomo Sher: And they were talking to them in the real world.
487
00:59:57.390 –> 01:00:07.050
Shlomo Sher: In the game world and the one hand it’s just a game if you’re looking at that way right and on the other hand, and it’s all anonymous and I never going to see these people.
488
01:00:07.260 –> 01:00:14.970
Shlomo Sher: And they say where Community we’ve got to live together, blah blah blah, you know cry me a river i’m just here, having fun, you know screw those people.
489
01:00:15.360 –> 01:00:29.880
Shlomo Sher: So it seems to me that the same incentive right it just doesn’t exist in a way it kind of doesn’t my son school where you know if two kids get in a fight they put them in that circle where you know, one of them is going to end up apologize and that’s a very good way to move ahead.
490
01:00:30.090 –> 01:00:36.990
A Ashcraft: See, I see, I think that we’re getting into a into a world now where we’re getting booted from fortnight.
491
01:00:38.190 –> 01:00:42.030
A Ashcraft: that’s that’s a big deal if everybody in your classes playing fortnight.
492
01:00:42.960 –> 01:00:52.680
A Ashcraft: um so you know it may not be much to an adult, but a lot of these people are kids and they’re learning the social rules as they go.
493
01:00:54.060 –> 01:01:07.830
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean yeah that’s that that’s true, though I mean you know, for every game you’ve got right with each game being its own ecosystem you’ve you know you can move on to another game, though I mean you’re right, I mean.
494
01:01:07.860 –> 01:01:08.850
Shlomo Sher: your friends are playing.
495
01:01:08.880 –> 01:01:10.260
Shlomo Sher: 100 kids are not there.
496
01:01:10.380 –> 01:01:15.270
A Ashcraft: Right you’re not if you’re not part of the social group you’re not you’re out, you know you’re outside of.
497
01:01:15.690 –> 01:01:21.330
Shlomo Sher: chrissy so let me piggyback on what Andy this said in your research of Trolls.
498
01:01:22.740 –> 01:01:38.790
Shlomo Sher: What about the sociability of Trolls when it comes to friends and stuff do Trolls troll with other Trolls do are Trolls like lonely hateful individuals or are they people would regular friends and social life, or how does How does that part work.
499
01:01:39.360 –> 01:01:42.720
Chrissy Cook: So a lot of them are are shockingly normal.
500
01:01:44.580 –> 01:01:54.240
Chrissy Cook: they’re they’re very just average people they’ve got friends offline they’ve got friends online they’re very normal.
501
01:01:55.650 –> 01:01:58.470
Chrissy Cook: they’re just they’re really just people.
502
01:01:59.910 –> 01:02:03.840
Chrissy Cook: which in some ways, is very humanizing.
503
01:02:04.920 –> 01:02:08.910
Chrissy Cook: In some ways, very horrifying because it means we all have the potential.
504
01:02:10.140 –> 01:02:19.350
Chrissy Cook: We all could be you know it’s not like these are evil villains here, you know you’re not fighting the joker you’re not fighting.
505
01:02:20.550 –> 01:02:26.010
Shlomo Sher: I do want to add that you did say earlier, that there is a rather high degree of sadism.
506
01:02:26.400 –> 01:02:27.270
Shlomo Sher: Yes, yes.
507
01:02:27.450 –> 01:02:31.230
Chrissy Cook: They do have that but it’s not clinical it’s not at the level where it’s.
508
01:02:31.230 –> 01:02:32.610
Chrissy Cook: Located psychopathic.
509
01:02:32.910 –> 01:02:38.640
Chrissy Cook: Right okay that’s a different person and then we’re talking about silos yeah.
510
01:02:39.000 –> 01:02:49.050
A Ashcraft: So I picked the seems like an appropriate point to say that on Facebook, I have been accused of trolling three times and one time, I will agree with.
511
01:02:51.180 –> 01:02:53.280
A Ashcraft: The other two time I probably need to rethink.
512
01:02:55.770 –> 01:02:57.570
Chrissy Cook: Yes, there you go.
513
01:02:58.770 –> 01:02:59.580
Shlomo Sher: Yes.
514
01:02:59.760 –> 01:03:00.780
Shlomo Sher: Andy is normal.
515
01:03:01.050 –> 01:03:01.980
A Ashcraft: And by the way, I mean.
516
01:03:02.190 –> 01:03:12.570
A Ashcraft: The only people I interact with on Facebook are people, I know I don’t I don’t interact with strangers on Facebook, so I mean i’ve been accused of being a troll three times, so I people i’m friends with.
517
01:03:13.500 –> 01:03:13.770
Chrissy Cook: yeah.
518
01:03:14.490 –> 01:03:16.230
A Ashcraft: I should probably think think about.
519
01:03:18.090 –> 01:03:22.050
Chrissy Cook: be a time for self reflection it’s very possible, I think we can all use them.
520
01:03:22.050 –> 01:03:23.370
Shlomo Sher: correctly yes.
521
01:03:24.150 –> 01:03:27.930
Chrissy Cook: But I do also think the word troll gets thrown around a lot too.
522
01:03:29.520 –> 01:03:35.910
Chrissy Cook: I think that the media, especially really likes that word that’s a new word that’s a fun word and.
523
01:03:36.450 –> 01:03:36.960
Chrissy Cook: That word.
524
01:03:39.150 –> 01:03:48.450
Chrissy Cook: Especially in American media now I only lived in the states for for one year, I lived I went there last year, but I did definitely see the word trolling.
525
01:03:49.170 –> 01:04:00.450
Chrissy Cook: used without adding adding a nice little definition to explain exactly what they were talking about and they definitely did not know if it was the person’s intention to the actual or not.
526
01:04:01.440 –> 01:04:08.910
Chrissy Cook: I mean it political it can be a little bit more obvious because they’re paid by a government to do a do you can just track money.
527
01:04:10.110 –> 01:04:11.370
Chrissy Cook: But apart from that.
528
01:04:12.630 –> 01:04:23.970
Chrissy Cook: it’s not always as obvious as we think it is, and you get people who are accused of being troll is Trolls are trolling like but but wait no that’s that’s not what I meant that’s not what I thought.
529
01:04:26.280 –> 01:04:28.380
Chrissy Cook: But yeah yeah go ahead.
530
01:04:29.280 –> 01:04:36.330
Shlomo Sher: I I wanted to ask I think we’re probably reaching a close to an hour an hour at this point.
531
01:04:37.680 –> 01:04:38.040
Shlomo Sher: I.
532
01:04:39.510 –> 01:04:42.960
Shlomo Sher: Andy just kind of curious do you have do you have a bunch of other questions.
533
01:04:43.800 –> 01:04:44.010
Shlomo Sher: i’ve.
534
01:04:44.190 –> 01:04:45.420
Shlomo Sher: been trying to keep, yes, but.
535
01:04:45.420 –> 01:04:45.720
A Ashcraft: Not.
536
01:04:45.750 –> 01:04:49.410
A Ashcraft: But not a few minutes worth like another hours worth I think would be.
537
01:04:49.560 –> 01:04:49.740
Great.
538
01:04:50.850 –> 01:04:58.830
Shlomo Sher: So how about this Andy, how can how about the last thing i’m going to ask about whenever we’re ready to cut a wrap it up.
539
01:04:59.100 –> 01:05:01.650
Shlomo Sher: Is I want to ask about troll hunters.
540
01:05:02.760 –> 01:05:05.880
Shlomo Sher: You know, to or counter Trolls I like troll hunters it’s a fun.
541
01:05:05.880 –> 01:05:06.000
name.
542
01:05:07.260 –> 01:05:10.470
A Ashcraft: You know, to begin with, was a movie but it didn’t have anything to do with computer games.
543
01:05:10.620 –> 01:05:11.280
Shlomo Sher: Not at all.
544
01:05:15.960 –> 01:05:19.050
Shlomo Sher: So, and did you want, did you want to ask.
545
01:05:20.010 –> 01:05:21.360
Shlomo Sher: No, no, no, I get to this.
546
01:05:21.390 –> 01:05:26.010
A Ashcraft: No, no, go for it go for it, I like I said Oh well, I think I think we’d love to have you back.
547
01:05:27.960 –> 01:05:31.650
A Ashcraft: And we’ll chat with you for another hour about about some other things too.
548
01:05:32.070 –> 01:05:38.970
Shlomo Sher: yeah we could definitely find more right, so let me ask you this right the sense of justice right.
549
01:05:39.090 –> 01:05:39.660
Chrissy Cook: yeah it’s.
550
01:05:40.440 –> 01:05:51.330
Shlomo Sher: Part of me just see feels like God it’s it’s so hard to do this it’s so hard to it seems like trolling is never going to go away it’s a complex phenomenon.
551
01:05:53.370 –> 01:06:12.390
Shlomo Sher: You know game companies have a hard time dealing with it um do we need more troll hunters, do we need is is this like account a kind of thing that does justice demands that more people you know troll the Trolls or is this just a really bad ideas it’s like a vigilante troll.
552
01:06:12.660 –> 01:06:14.760
Shlomo Sher: sphere that we just really don’t want.
553
01:06:15.900 –> 01:06:18.360
Chrissy Cook: So I mean there can only be one that.
554
01:06:20.670 –> 01:06:24.600
Chrissy Cook: I think if we get too many batman’s we’re going to have a bigger issue.
555
01:06:25.710 –> 01:06:27.630
Shlomo Sher: really not there’s many cities.
556
01:06:27.630 –> 01:06:29.640
Shlomo Sher: And then metropolis right there could be many.
557
01:06:29.640 –> 01:06:30.390
Shlomo Sher: bad things.
558
01:06:32.280 –> 01:06:32.610
Chrissy Cook: I guess.
559
01:06:33.990 –> 01:06:34.320
Chrissy Cook: would be.
560
01:06:34.350 –> 01:06:35.580
Batman Batman.
561
01:06:36.990 –> 01:06:37.350
A Ashcraft: That.
562
01:06:37.560 –> 01:06:39.270
Chrissy Cook: That people I don’t know.
563
01:06:43.410 –> 01:06:44.970
Chrissy Cook: And I say this jokingly um.
564
01:06:45.300 –> 01:06:55.410
Chrissy Cook: I do think, in some cases vigilante trolling could theoretically work, it could.
565
01:06:56.850 –> 01:07:17.790
Chrissy Cook: I don’t know a system where it would, I think the methods are too close and I think the real problem, though, for me, the real problem is the social norm, we accept trolling and we think it happens all the time and we’re right, it does happen, a lot.
566
01:07:18.870 –> 01:07:25.950
Chrissy Cook: But it has become almost a rite of passage at this point where everyone’s controlled at least once.
567
01:07:26.310 –> 01:07:38.700
Chrissy Cook: You know it’s something it’s a common experience and it’s I call it in my work it’s a unless we’re getting into the racism sexism gender identity, this kind of troll where I would argue that speaks he cybercrime.
568
01:07:39.750 –> 01:07:50.460
Chrissy Cook: And apart from that trolling is a normative it’s not encouraged but it’s not really discouraged either kind of in this middle ground.
569
01:07:51.150 –> 01:08:07.170
Chrissy Cook: So I think if we have vigilante Trolls it’s only adding to the social norm, that this is a thing to do, and this is what we need to do, and this is the only way to deal with it do I do, I have a better answer at this point.
570
01:08:08.490 –> 01:08:13.380
Chrissy Cook: not really education slowly changing the social norm over time.
571
01:08:14.640 –> 01:08:31.740
Chrissy Cook: But I think the key message is for me is that you don’t need to be a troll hunter, but we all should recognize that who we are online is also who we are and who we affect online are real people.
572
01:08:32.400 –> 01:08:37.020
Chrissy Cook: And I think just that really simple facts.
573
01:08:38.070 –> 01:08:50.670
Chrissy Cook: Or maybe it’s simple to me, maybe it’s more complex if you’re in a different different fields or Whatever the case may be, but we’re all real people and the online world is part of the world it’s all real.
574
01:08:52.590 –> 01:09:01.440
Shlomo Sher: it’s a simple fact that’s just sometimes hard to get you know empathy when ever you know when things are anonymous and.
575
01:09:01.980 –> 01:09:02.520
Shlomo Sher: And you don’t.
576
01:09:02.610 –> 01:09:03.690
Shlomo Sher: See the people in front of you.
577
01:09:04.710 –> 01:09:06.600
Shlomo Sher: I thought that was a great answer cuz.
578
01:09:07.260 –> 01:09:07.770
A Ashcraft: I do too.
579
01:09:08.190 –> 01:09:25.230
Shlomo Sher: And you think about how norms norms have been changing, especially with with sex and race and you would figure that I guess, I want to throw one more question that maybe both you guys, do you think that game companies could do any more to help those norms change.
580
01:09:26.070 –> 01:09:31.560
A Ashcraft: Yes, yeah I yeah I don’t I have been toying with.
581
01:09:33.030 –> 01:09:40.500
A Ashcraft: This is for basically a social any sort of social where there’s chat and where there’s ability to post videos and that sort of thing i’ve been toying with a.
582
01:09:40.830 –> 01:09:49.560
A Ashcraft: With a with a schema to try to address it, I don’t know if it’s any good, and I know what I really need is I need to talk to people like like Dr grey.
583
01:09:50.790 –> 01:09:58.920
A Ashcraft: And and run it by by her and others and other people who really get studied this to say is this even gonna hurt or help right.
584
01:09:59.430 –> 01:10:13.920
A Ashcraft: But yeah I do believe that there’s probably a way to to to create systems of interaction that don’t that that that promote the good kinds of interactions and demote the bad kinds of interactions.
585
01:10:15.960 –> 01:10:21.540
Chrissy Cook: I would agree with that, I think I do not have an answer i’m not i’m not the game designer.
586
01:10:22.950 –> 01:10:32.010
Chrissy Cook: But I do think there must, there must be a way if we, I mean we have years and years of psychology to suggest that we can change for you.
587
01:10:34.410 –> 01:10:50.220
Chrissy Cook: So there has to be something that we can do, maybe you know just off the top of my head, you know, maybe have an interaction tutorial to go with your gameplay tutorial know even something something really small like that could could potentially.
588
01:10:50.490 –> 01:10:50.790
Chrissy Cook: yeah.
589
01:10:51.750 –> 01:10:55.110
A Ashcraft: Whether anybody’s ever actually taught sat down and told a player.
590
01:10:56.130 –> 01:10:58.080
A Ashcraft: Well, this is how you interact with people online.
591
01:10:58.890 –> 01:11:00.090
yeah right.
592
01:11:01.470 –> 01:11:05.610
Shlomo Sher: All right, guys I I think on this, what called an episode.
593
01:11:06.840 –> 01:11:14.880
Shlomo Sher: chrissy I don’t know if you ended, I have a closing that that we tend to we tend to do instead of good game, we say good pat good podcast.
594
01:11:15.120 –> 01:11:16.410
Chrissy Cook: GP GP.
595
01:11:19.470 –> 01:11:20.010
Shlomo Sher: sandy.
596
01:11:20.160 –> 01:11:20.760
Chrissy Cook: Very good.
597
01:11:20.820 –> 01:11:22.110
A Ashcraft: Night guys, thank you, Miss cooke.
598
01:11:22.590 –> 01:11:24.210
Chrissy Cook: No problem good podcast guys.
599
01:11:25.590 –> 01:11:26.160
Chrissy Cook: gpu tp.
600
01:11:26.400 –> 01:11:27.300
Shlomo Sher: play nice everybody.
