[Release Date: August 3, 2021] How can ethics play a role in game design? What’s the point of teaching of ethics to game design students?
Our guest, game scholar Jose Zagal is not just a pioneer on this subject, but also teaches one of only two classes in the world for game design students on the subject of Ethics and Video Games.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: When I started this podcast That was one person that I immediately knew that I wanted to invite to talk about ethics and video games with me and Andy.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s a jose’s a goal is here with us today in our 20th milestone episode, I actually tried to time that a little bit Jose because I thought it would be a cool like round number guests.
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Shlomo Sher: As a as a goal is a professor at the University of utah’s top rank game development program he teaches variety of classes, including indesign and ethics and video games.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t know which one of us started teaching this class first, but as far as I know, we’re the only two people in the world, teaching a class on ethics and video games and less Jose is going to tell me otherwise.
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Shlomo Sher: I said, you know is that true.
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Jose P Zagal: uh huh I don’t know actually we can track it, I think I started teaching in.
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Shlomo Sher: 2008 2000 you start teaching this class in 2008.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah okay yeah so I haven’t seen anybody else and you’re the only one that i’ve come up with, so you might have been the only way I started in 2015.
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Shlomo Sher: So for seven years, you might have been the only one, and then I came along, and then someone might come along at seven more years or seven months we’ll we’ll see we’ll see how that goes well.
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Jose P Zagal: it’s actually a bit more complicated on my end but i’ll get into that later on today’s episode.
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Shlomo Sher: All right.
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Shlomo Sher: Besides this as a is also active on the academic side of things, publishers research papers analyzing and theorizing about gains and, more importantly, for today’s conversation exploring the intersection of.
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Shlomo Sher: An overlap of ethics and video games he publishes numerous articles on the topic many freely available online and also edited the video game ethics reader.
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Shlomo Sher: When I had the idea of doing a class on the intersection of ethics and video games in 2014 it was that reader and especially the articles that was a wrote about designing.
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Shlomo Sher: Ethics and video games that really formed the backbone and part of the inspiration of that course and for data forever indebted because it’s been a totally totally interesting experience.
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Shlomo Sher: Jose was honored as a distinguished guests color by digital game research association and, as a fellow by the higher education, video game alliance, you can follow him on Twitter at jose’s ago jose’s a girl, welcome to the podcast.
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Jose P Zagal: hi Thank you.
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Shlomo Sher: All right.
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Jose P Zagal: it’s a real pleasure to be here and i’m really honored and it’s always exciting as an academic to hear that your work has some impact or some effect on there, so thank you very much, that really honors me.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, we I look forward to our new some more.
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Shlomo Sher: Like I let me be honest, it was it was really hard to decide what to discuss with you on this episode right because, in part because I really loved your articles about.
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Shlomo Sher: Incorporating ethics in game design and there’s definitely a part where I would love for you to come back and discuss that with us.
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Shlomo Sher: But we decided to focus on the idea of teaching ethics and the teaching part right teaching ethics and video games itself because.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re both believers in the importance of people thinking about ethics in in video games, but we know nothing about each other’s classes aims hopes and about the impact that classes like this might have on game design.
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Shlomo Sher: I do know that we come into this topic from different directions right me as a moral philosopher you as a game scholar, and of course we’ve got Andy with us who’s a game designer.
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Shlomo Sher: Which is interesting and because I don’t know if i’ve ever talked to you about the impact of my class on our students.
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Shlomo Sher: So maybe you can give you some feedback on that too and Jose and I have none of us have ever met before so let’s exchange ideas get inspired and learn something about what learning about ethics and video games can do.
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Shlomo Sher: well.
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Shlomo Sher: Alright, so let’s start with this, how did you get interested in ethics and video games in the first place.
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Jose P Zagal: Okay, so remember earlier, I said that the story is a bit more complicated on my end.
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sure.
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Jose P Zagal: So.
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Jose P Zagal: I guess like the the one word answer would be serendipitously.
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Jose P Zagal: So.
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I just graduated from.
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Jose P Zagal: Georgia tech when I PhD and I was on the job market, and I was fortunate enough to get an offer to start at depaul University in Chicago and so prior to the move over to Chicago from Atlanta, which is where true detective located.
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Jose P Zagal: I was asked hey so you’re starting in the fall, what would you like to teach and I was basically given two options.
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Jose P Zagal: The intro game design class or an ethics in video games and cinema class.
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Jose P Zagal: hmm and.
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Shlomo Sher: They already had the the already had that this class on the books.
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Jose P Zagal: Yes, this class already existed, so it was not a class that I invented that sort of.
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Jose P Zagal: Now, this is a classic when I started teaching it it did change a bit and it’s curriculum that change in significant ways, but it was not a an original invention of mine that’s what I want to make that super clear like I didn’t invent this class.
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Jose P Zagal: Obviously, I chose to teach ethics class.
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Jose P Zagal: And my reasoning at the time was i’ve taught game design before I think I know a fair amount about game design, but I don’t really know anything about ethics, I know a lot about games knowledge about ethics.
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Jose P Zagal: And so it seems like a really interesting opportunity for me, as a young scholar as a sort of just starting off Professor.
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Jose P Zagal: To be able to start on something that is fresh and new and that seemed exciting to me at the time and it still is, and also as a way kind of a palate cleanser from the dissertation work, I was really looking to like okay what’s what’s the new project that I want to start working on.
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A Ashcraft: So if I can ask what was your dissertation.
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Jose P Zagal: So my dissertation was on using online collaborative environments to encourage learning about game design.
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Jose P Zagal: Okay basic question was so in the educational research in the learning sciences, research, a lot of people focus on Well, this is what we learned about why it’s hard for kids to learn how to program, for example.
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Jose P Zagal: You know these there’s these issues, these are common problems that they face, and so I had that question for games and the context, I thought was interesting because.
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Jose P Zagal: You know if you’re trying to learn something about biology chances are you don’t know a lot about biology until you take biology.
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Jose P Zagal: But when you’re learning about games, a lot of people that are learning about games know a lot about games from having you know 15 years of experience playing games.
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Jose P Zagal: And so what is the role of that experience and how can we leverage it as an educator can, is there a downside to that experience and so on, so that was kind of the emphasis of that of that project.
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Jose P Zagal: I was looking at blogging and wikis as to specific tools to see how we could use those to help learn about games in the broad sense door so not just game design, but game development as well right awesome.
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Jose P Zagal: And yeah so i’m starting at depaul and i’m teaching this class on games, the cinema, I was hired to work in the Games program there so there’s a program that already existed with students at a major and so on.
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Jose P Zagal: I asked around so so what what has, you know what do you guys been teaching what’s the what’s the curriculum, and so one of my colleagues there Charlie wilcox he was very generous and he basically said look here’s here’s all my materials all my slides.
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Jose P Zagal: And in the time between i’ve been thinking about what i’m going to teach and my getting there, I had a whole lot of ideas that like wow this is so exciting i’m sure they talked about this i’m sure.
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Jose P Zagal: This is part of the curriculum and that’s mostly from the game stuff I had to really put much thought into the summer stuff and that’s to my discredit I guess.
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Jose P Zagal: And so, as i’m teaching this class i’m realizing that a lot of the content in the class is not the content that I think is the most interesting for the class, and so I started to make changes to the class.
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Jose P Zagal: And this class I was teaching I think pretty much every quarter so at depaul university and then, when I moved to utah I think I maybe had about a break, have a year of not teaching ethics and games.
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Jose P Zagal: And so, by the time i’m user like they just want us to teach this thing would you like to teach us again and sorry I did so, this is a class i’ve been teaching pretty much continuously since 2008.
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Jose P Zagal: And even while is that the Paul because it was taught across multiple sections my section was the we’re going to focus mostly on game section for other people teach this in class, but they had a different emphasis and we’re all doing their own thing in that sense as well.
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A Ashcraft: Well that’s fascinating fascinating first off that there is enough people in the class to have more than one section.
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Yes.
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A Ashcraft: I mean.
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A Ashcraft: Even even back in 2008 the game game development as a as a university, you know, a department was was was barely getting started if it feels like.
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Jose P Zagal: It definitely existed, and I think it didn’t have a lot of visibility outside of the university space.
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Jose P Zagal: This was the games in cinema, and so it was also grabbing all the students that are in the film Program.
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Jose P Zagal: Right programs was.
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Jose P Zagal: was really popular obviously and there’s also a required class which makes it extra like requires that everyone in the major had to take this class right.
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A Ashcraft: And then, at the University of utah did they already have the class or did you create it there for them.
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Jose P Zagal: I created.
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Jose P Zagal: I also created a graduate version of the class.
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Jose P Zagal: as well, so i’ve taught I teach a graduate version, maybe once a year, every other year once.
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Jose P Zagal: The ethics of the undergrads I am teaching every semester now i’m sort of in the same.
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Jose P Zagal: I don’t want to call it a whole because it sounds like i’m not happy and I don’t like it, but or it’s not a rut either, but it’s sort of.
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Jose P Zagal: there’s enough demand it’s also required class now there’s so much demand that I feel like I have to teach you every semester in order to to to not cause problems for the students who want to graduate obviously right.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m a I I i’ve been teaching it every Semester and we’re year round.
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Shlomo Sher: For the last you know almost seven years at this point, and this is the first, this is the first summer that I haven’t taught it, you know I mean teaching everything every single semester.
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Shlomo Sher: Right can just feel like you just you want you want to break from it so it’s interesting you know I actually when when I started.
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Shlomo Sher: I was I I made up a class for being in La for ethics of cinema.
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Shlomo Sher: And I came up with a class of ethics of cinema and I was essentially showing it to some of my film professors that were near the philosophy department.
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Shlomo Sher: And they said, you know a few, if you think like ethics of a film is cool you should really check out like there’s some really interesting things happening in video games and I wasn’t a big gamer and I thought, how Let me try that, and you know.
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Shlomo Sher: I remember at the time the game recommended was heavy rain and you know later on Jose I read your your paper and heavy rain and there was one of my favorites it remains one of my favorites ever.
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Shlomo Sher: and playing heavy rain really kind of convinced me as like oh my God there’s so much here.
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Shlomo Sher: And I I put together a syllabus and just sent it out to universities to see who would who would who would pick up on it, and then the New York film academy just put something like that actually on the syllabus because of gamer gate.
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Shlomo Sher: So what happened was when gamer gate happened.
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Shlomo Sher: The.
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Shlomo Sher: The Dean essentially said we got to make sure that our game department, you know understands issues about sexism.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know we need something like this, and I think it came down actually literally from the Dean on down, you want to make the.
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Shlomo Sher: game, the game design students have a class like this, but no one really knew how to teach it and it just happened that I sent them a syllabus at the same time, this is actually I ended up getting my job at the New York film academy nt.
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Shlomo Sher: You know i’m a philosopher and only teach one class at the game department, but the game design department, but it was kind of but it’s became you know I own that class right and it became and I actually I I teach the same exact class to me phase.
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Shlomo Sher: And the in the beta phase.
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Shlomo Sher: Without any changes at all, and I am and i’m kind of curious to the the Masters tools just do it better, but the material I have is exactly.
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The same.
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Shlomo Sher: So so Okay, let me ask you this.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting having a kind of the notice right gamer gate guard that seems so far behind us and, of course, you know it’s not like sexism is that far.
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Shlomo Sher: You know behind us, but um, what do you think is the point of teaching a class on ethics to game design, because this is so rare and this is such a you know, an afterthought, and so many game design programs.
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Jose P Zagal: I think there’s three.
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Jose P Zagal: Big answers to that and i’ll start from the like the most basic to, then the most specific, I think the most basic is.
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Jose P Zagal: I think it’s important for people to learn how to think and talented reason and how to make arguments and to reflect and to.
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Jose P Zagal: Think about sort of the purpose of life and what does it mean to be good and those things, and maybe we can start this into the it’s part of a liberal arts education or it’s what it means to be.
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Jose P Zagal: educated in in in the broad sense of the term, and so I think that’s important so even for someone who isn’t interested in making games, I think.
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Jose P Zagal: Learning something about more philosophy and if it’s in a context of something that is perhaps familiar to that’s that’s perhaps a win or can make it more relatable more interesting more engaging more thought provoking.
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Jose P Zagal: So I think everyone should know something about more philosophy and I look at myself as a man, you know.
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Jose P Zagal: I did take philosophy in high school two years of it, I don’t remember anything it anything I remember names of authors and I feel that that was like, if I could go back in time and say hey is that you should pay more attention that’s class I you know I slapped myself a couple of times.
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Jose P Zagal: For missing that opportunity.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s it’s very hard to first of all it’s awesome you know when you get philosophy in high school, I always think that’s really great and it’s so rare you know, in the United States, for that to happen, but a lot of those questions are, I think much harder to take a seriously.
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Shlomo Sher: at that age.
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Shlomo Sher: Now you know but.
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Shlomo Sher: By the way, Andy and I recently had an episode guide it might have been the last episode, and I can remember a about called white play.
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Shlomo Sher: And that essentially kind of connect tries to connect the reasons you might have for what kind of gives you should play to the reasons you should have or how to live your life.
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Shlomo Sher: Now right right kind of kind of directly directly taking this idea of.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, at the end of it everything we do has some sort of philosophical import and you know I know this is you’re right, I mean this is part of the liberal arts education.
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Shlomo Sher: right that we want to essentially think about the value of the things that we do not just the techniques that it takes us to you know, to get a work, though it is interesting that.
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Shlomo Sher: In a program like ours, a program like ours is, oh no, they still do everything they still have a bfa liberal arts program at night never, never, never mind, never mind that.
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A Ashcraft: I mean it is basically a trade school, but it is moving closer to being a liberal arts school like each year.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, I mean they they take they still have to take all the all the regular classes for be effect right sorry so.
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Jose P Zagal: that’s the first layer
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Shlomo Sher: that’s the first layer
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Shlomo Sher: Okay let’s go let’s go.
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Jose P Zagal: layer I think is.
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Jose P Zagal: This is focused to specific students, so I think for students who are interested in working in the games industry, I think this is a class that is important for them to.
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Jose P Zagal: Have because they will become professionals and then this question is, what does it mean to be a professional, first of all.
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Jose P Zagal: But then, furthermore, like what does it mean to behave ethically and correctly in your job, and to understand the implications that the work you do might have to understand the consequences of your work on other people, and so on, so forth.
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Jose P Zagal: So this is in the guise of a lot of programs will have a professional ethics class and i’m doing my air quotes and we’re doing air quotes up because I don’t think the grid classes, but rather because.
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Jose P Zagal: I think fundamentally brush all things is something should be across the curriculum, so if it’s I don’t think it’s the sort of thing well i’m really ethical in this class, but when it comes down to my graphics class I do whatever.
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Jose P Zagal: Like no, you should be ethical all the time.
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Jose P Zagal: And the ethical work of being a graphics programmer is still important relevant, but this is a classic kind of draws in all these ideas, and so we talked about crunch and we talked about.
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Jose P Zagal: You know, sexism in the industry, we talked about representation and we talked about.
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Jose P Zagal: Different you know loop boxes is a hot thing that we’ve been talking about for last couple years now, so a lot of has to do with the.
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Jose P Zagal: behaving and acting professionally and ethically as a professional and also looking at things that are happening in the industry and discussing them to talk about them and.
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Jose P Zagal: Being able to make sense of them right to understand well why would this company do this thing this way and I understand like what is happening there and also would I do the same thing if I was in that situation, why why or why not.
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Jose P Zagal: that’s a second layer
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Shlomo Sher: That sounds exactly like professional ethics right, I mean I you know i’ve.
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Shlomo Sher: i’ve taught classes and business ethics let’s say right where we we talk very much specifically about the roles that you’re going to play and i’ve taught classes and medical ethics right and those classes are different right.
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Shlomo Sher: In both cases, I was a I was training future professionals in those fields, so they weren’t just kind of you know, academic exercises.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s interesting that, besides those two fields it’s you know there’s classes in journalistic ethics and you know, sometimes in media ethics, but it’s very rare for other professions to kind of.
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Shlomo Sher: think of themselves as needing a kind of dedicated time to think about the ethical obstacles in their field.
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Shlomo Sher: But when you do it, you know I i’ve always felt that it.
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Shlomo Sher: Not only does it make you.
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Shlomo Sher: A better professional in the sense of I think you can think about what it is that you want what it is that would make you proud of the kind of career that you have.
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Shlomo Sher: And also think of the I think overall value of your career, you know beside that’s obvious value to you.
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Jose P Zagal: yeah are you are you doing good.
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Jose P Zagal: And what does that mean right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right it’s.
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Jose P Zagal: Like when we talk about games like essentially you bring up sort of medical ethics business ethics and I think we see this and all these other fields as well, so lawyers, also have a lot of.
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Jose P Zagal: engineers also programmers and so on.
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Jose P Zagal: And then the question becomes well what are particularly ethical issues or concerns that are salient in the games industry because of what the games industry does.
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Jose P Zagal: If i’m a lawyer confidentiality is that really big deal right and and also the issues of like defending and doing the right thing by your client who might in fact be guilty right how’d you.
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Jose P Zagal: how’d you do that, how do you separate those two things if if if you’re a doctor, being a doctor implies harming people right i’m getting a heart transplant there, like some he’s literally got a car make my body i’m going to cut it open and do something, but ideally it’s for like.
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Jose P Zagal: In my best interest rate ideally Rosati being healthier and so on, so this the Hippocratic oath is a big part of the medical profession and education, and so, for games, what is it right.
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Jose P Zagal: Is it, are we engaging in practices that lead to addiction, or we manipulating our players are we misleading them, how do we, you know all these issues that you know that i’m sure you talk about in your class and I talked about mine.
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Shlomo Sher: You know it’s interesting because I do see one big difference and i’ve thought about this in terms of.
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Shlomo Sher: You know that training aspect right a course like this and you know, a lawyer and a doctor and let’s say you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Even when I teach let’s say business ethics right, I can think very much of okay you’re you’re in management right management comes with a certain set of responsibilities your marketing marketing involves a certain set of responsibilities.
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Shlomo Sher: But video game, the video game world seems to be full to be full of lots of different positions, some of which I don’t quite understand.
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Shlomo Sher: In a way, that is much and and also may be subject to the actions of got higher level decision making.
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Shlomo Sher: Because it’s such a collaborative process right it’s not just you with it with a client right it’s such a huge collaborative process and i’ve never actually I don’t know if i’ve figured.
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Shlomo Sher: out I kind of pretend that you know you have control over the process but, but then, when you, you know you become like a low level, you know artists or lead level designer.
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Shlomo Sher: And you might never face these kind of big level questions and i’ve never kind of been able to figure out what exactly to do about that.
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Jose P Zagal: I think so there’s there’s the generic you know anyone in a management position is gonna have to deal with the issues of dealing with people in framing people hiring people interviewing all that kind of stuff and and regulations.
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Jose P Zagal: But I think there are some issues that I think cut across all kinds of.
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Jose P Zagal: disciplines or areas or job titles in the company right, so I think talking about intellectual property is important.
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Jose P Zagal: And I don’t mean just in the sense of understanding of the law, but understanding like what like, why do we have this in the first place and and.
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Jose P Zagal: games as an industry are is built upon and, in my opinion, it might be the the main driver for innovation in games, is the fact that we can easily look at someone else’s mechanic and system and basically ported over to our game right and that’s what pushes game design and game forward.
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Jose P Zagal: And that’s because there’s a certain attitude with regards to and supported this case by legislation to game mechanics and systems and so on, we don’t have the same for other kinds of.
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Jose P Zagal: Intellectual property that shows up against right so characters and your artwork and you music and all that is strictly protected and so as.
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Jose P Zagal: As people who are thinking of joining the industry, I think it’s important for them to think well how could things be like.
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Jose P Zagal: And what i’m missing out because of the way things are structured now and why.
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Jose P Zagal: Why would it be okay for me to take someone else’s character and make some changes in the corporate my game, or why it might not be okay from a moral perspective right.
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Jose P Zagal: And I think that comes across whether you’re an engineer who’s looking at some source code on stack overflow.
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Jose P Zagal: And by like oh here’s someone who solved the problem that i’m trying to solve right now, and maybe your copy pasting that code.
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Jose P Zagal: or using open source software we’re using a third party tool that gives you access to certain things or doesn’t give you access to others or.
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Jose P Zagal: You know your your entire game is is built upon this idea that players are going to make most of the content and what moral right do you have to sort of ownership over their content might.
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Jose P Zagal: I made all these really amazing micro level makers and Michael baker levels.
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Jose P Zagal: And I have no way to pull them out of the game i’m not saying I want the character of mine i’m saying like I want my layout my design my the rules that i’ve implemented by putting certain blocks and certain locations why can’t I.
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Jose P Zagal: I can’t like it’s all owned by Nintendo Nintendo just released i’m blanking on the name, right now, their new game which is a game, making tool and the first question in my mind is hey what happens to those Games, who owns those.
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Shlomo Sher: This is a great questions i’ve never considered fantastic i’m already i’m already getting some new ideas.
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Jose P Zagal: Now I mean dreams by media molecule I love media molecule I love their their games I love their products and so on, I love little planet.
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Jose P Zagal: Little planet was incredibly successful in part because of an entire community of users, that was making games and pretty entertainment for others right right um.
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Jose P Zagal: Some of those saw profit in the sense, because the higher ups at BT Mike was like Oh, we really appreciate stuff you’re doing, we want to hire you on like in come join our company, but for most people like in other markets, we might call this expectation right.
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Jose P Zagal: here’s people who are willingly going in and making levels and creating content and someone else’s profiting from that so there’s a moral issue there right i’m not saying I know the answer to that, but I think it’s.
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Jose P Zagal: Like I would I would hope and imagine that professionals would consider these kinds of things right, be aware of that say, well, are we doing the right thing, how do we give back do we should we give back, should we not so on so forth.
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A Ashcraft: Right, I feel like that question got brought up in regards to because there’s a lot of web content.
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A Ashcraft: So, within the web, industry and the people you know, creating journals online for other people to read and all of that, you know Facebook and anytime you’re making you’re creating posts like that you’re creating.
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A Ashcraft: you’re creating content for other people, but you’re really creating it for this company that owns a website.
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A Ashcraft: So I feel like this is we’ve sort of gotten a near to that, through the through the web, industry and so now it’s just sort of creeping into other places.
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Jose P Zagal: yeah I mean it’s the whole fanfiction as a thing right.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah right.
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Jose P Zagal: But I think what is different about games, or perhaps interesting is that games, have always had this thread of sharing stuff.
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Jose P Zagal: Right, even the earliest stage right before there was even an industry we’re talking about games are being shared by people like adventure on mainframe computers right.
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Jose P Zagal: Like I just wrote this game and it’s called you know lunar lander and now it’s appears everywhere so that’s always been a part of video games, perhaps more specifically right or games as being a sort of a folk culture.
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Jose P Zagal: Right, who have had to tag I don’t know I don’t care we couldn’t figure this out with better chess right it’s always been a culture where we’ve remix and bro things and so on and so.
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Jose P Zagal: games have thrived on that right, this idea that the game comes with the tool to make levels for it, I think it’s like.
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Jose P Zagal: it’s kind of a game thing right you don’t buy a novel and the fact is that appendix was like here’s how to write some more chapters for this novel.
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A Ashcraft: right here so here’s some blank pages, at the end write your own ending.
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Jose P Zagal: yeah um but for games that’s that’s it’s pretty common right city it comes with a modeling has been a thing right the tools for creating new you games and so on.
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Jose P Zagal: And we’ve seen the industry benefit from this too right how many games that started off as a model start off as a model, a mock up of like at this point is Martha Martha Martha Martha Martha Martha I show for.
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Jose P Zagal: him in class which is it literally a minute, but you could just pick punchy and there’s like five steps between punchy and, like the original expansion of a game that came out and it all steps in between Wer were mods essentially.
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A Ashcraft: Right and that and that game that initial game that came out was probably a very end of some other game that had come up before.
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Jose P Zagal: yeah right exactly exactly so ownership of ideas that’s one thing I think cuts across whether you’re an engineer or an artist designer.
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Jose P Zagal: Maybe even a producer and so on and so we try to touch upon some of these things in the class, even if some of them might be more managerial I think some are still yeah it’s your nine to five coding, I think this still applies.
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A Ashcraft: Right great.
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Shlomo Sher: So so let’s let’s let’s piggyback on that and get get to.
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Shlomo Sher: Our classes themselves, so I guess, first of all, who are your students So what are they like and what are you what are you teaching them.
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Jose P Zagal: Okay i’m gonna play the naughty interviewee though i’m sorry.
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Jose P Zagal: Oh, the first question asked me, I said I had like three layers and I didn’t want.
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Shlomo Sher: to forget.
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We.
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Shlomo Sher: got to the third one do it all right.
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Jose P Zagal: Which i’m only bringing this up, because in my opinion it’s the one that is personally most interesting to me like in my own life, as it were, so.
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Jose P Zagal: Okay there’s the it’s this matters because general culture and liberal arts this matters because your professional work in ministry, but the third layer for me is I think games as a creative artistic and expressive medium.
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Jose P Zagal: are particularly well aligned with thinking about the issues of ethics and exploring and understanding that potential, I think, is really exciting and interesting and the sort of the example I use in class, so the way I discussed with the students, I say look.
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Jose P Zagal: Music, you can experience a lot of emotions when you listen to music, in fact, music, of all the media, you know creative artistic expression is perhaps the one that is best suited.
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Jose P Zagal: To making me want to feel that I want to move my body, for example, right.
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Jose P Zagal: I think okay yeah people people understand okay visit makes you want to move you want to dance, and so on i’m reading a novel that the bet rarely happens right I don’t feel like move my body my body if i’m watching a movie maybe because there’s music okay.
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Jose P Zagal: So if you really think of all the range of human emotions, for example, I think games kind of tap into a lot of them, obviously, but there’s some which you don’t really get that well in other video.
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Jose P Zagal: pride.
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A Ashcraft: guilt.
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shame.
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Jose P Zagal: These are experiences that i’ve had playing games and that might have tangentially had another media, but I think in games and it has to do with this idea that you are.
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Jose P Zagal: Acting in the game and therefore somehow feel that you’re somehow responsible for your actions, and so you might feel pride and in your achievements like.
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Jose P Zagal: If I read, I read a heart, like a book and I feel like i’m really proud I did I feel pride well we’d never know I might feel proud when I finished it because it was long, it was complicated it was challenging but in a game like that happens, a lot.
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Jose P Zagal: chain guilt remorse.
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Jose P Zagal: And so that’s an area, I think that games as a medium for philosophers like specifically that could be like super exciting right even have even if you think of games as systems right, we can think of.
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Jose P Zagal: So i’m gonna say.
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Jose P Zagal: i’m not i’m not the philosopher of the House, but i’m just going to roll in these concepts together, and I hope you will let me, let me slide without.
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Shlomo Sher: Going by the book on this you do what you do.
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Jose P Zagal: Okay, so ethics is about rules for life, think of it okay or a way of understanding how you should go about living your life.
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Jose P Zagal: Some cases it’s like this is do this, this is the right thing to do, and if you do the wrong thing then you will be punished in these ways for example right, so a lot of religions have this idea of like these are the good things to do if you don’t you know punishment.
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Jose P Zagal: Or it might say, like these are good things to do, for these reasons right and you think about games, a lot of games that’s how they basically games operators rules.
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Jose P Zagal: As a player I figured them out and the game is giving me feedback, and let me know hey you’re doing things right you’re making progress you’re succeeding.
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Jose P Zagal: you’re you’re doing things wrong, you need to go back and do this thing again to do it like now, what if you place those rules with.
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Jose P Zagal: Ideas about ethics right, so it can’t wear life today, and he said, you know what I could write a book or I can make a game.
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Jose P Zagal: What if I made a game where the world of the game implemented my ideas about moral philosophy like this is a world the way, I think it should be and age as you play the game, you can learn about these ideas.
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Jose P Zagal: and participate in this world, and hopefully you the player will be like oh my God this world is amazing like I wish the real world were like this now, I know what I need to do in out in the real world.
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Jose P Zagal: In order to get to a world is closer to what is in this game right like imagine someone else but then they’ll be like well, I think the game is different because I think the world should be like this different way.
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Jose P Zagal: And you can play their own game and kind of understand or more of their ideas about moral philosophy from the rules of the game and how the game functions, as it were.
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Shlomo Sher: And notice how your by you’re taking these really abstract ideas about how people should live their lives, how society should be structured and you’re letting someone experienced them right.
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Shlomo Sher: Try it exactly the mouth right and yeah this idea of I I absolutely agree with you, so much and.
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Shlomo Sher: You know this idea of taking responsibility right for for your actions right.
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Shlomo Sher: The things you don’t take responsibility for are things that you can’t.
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Shlomo Sher: You know you can’t really apply to yourself in the same sense right, especially pride and shame.
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Shlomo Sher: Right this idea that you can only be prey you know have be proud of things you’ve done, you can only be ashamed of things that you’ve done you’re not going to get that another medium because you’re not doing right, but again can really make you do.
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Jose P Zagal: Right and no.
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Shlomo Sher: kind of put you in those kinds of situations that also could be engineered to specifically get you to have a certain kind of experience and to reflect on it in in a certain way and that’s amazing to me that you have to be that’s my favorite thing about video games.
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Jose P Zagal: yeah.
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A Ashcraft: I love the idea.
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A Ashcraft: Of philosophers we haven’t been able to make their make a game and then like watching people play it and go oh that’s not what I meant at all.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s all it’s also it’s also hard if you’re if you’re someone like like like comment.
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Shlomo Sher: But it does, it is also interesting to see you know a lot of these philosophers world so.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, they were armchair psychologist to in an age where people didn’t do quantitative studies about anything.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so they you know they had certain ideas about what people were really like and what people would really do, but you know put those people in the Nemo and let’s see what they do.
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A Ashcraft: Right, as we go into game design thinking, the same things right, we have an idea of what our players are going to do, and what our players are going to like and then you know frequently we find out to were quite wrong.
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Jose P Zagal: Oh, of course, yeah all the time.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right though it’s interesting because, at least with the philosophy, the ideals might stay the same right it’s just that the particular ways that the philosopher thought they might apply.
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A Ashcraft: Right might might be different.
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Shlomo Sher: But we’re not going to get into the philosophy part today.
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we’re gonna.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re gonna we’re gonna talk about the the actual okay so so glad you, you were the the quote unquote bad guest and put in the good stuff so tell us about the class itself what what’s what what’s your class like what are your students like.
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Jose P Zagal: So currently at i’ll speak to my my class here at the University of utah just because that’s the more recent one, so the undergraduate class.
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Jose P Zagal: We actually have a cross section with philosophy, so I will have usually minority of students who are not in the gauge program otherwise.
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Jose P Zagal: Everyone in the class is in the Games program and or or is games adjacent enough that they want to work at the industry is usually usually okay.
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Jose P Zagal: And I would describe depending on who i’m talking to I described the class differently so.
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Jose P Zagal: For philosophers i’ll say look this class is it’s a philosophy one class when a cover utilitarianism we’re going to cover cons and social contract theory and virtue ethics and feminists ethics and and then and so on, but all of this in the context of games.
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Jose P Zagal: As I OK understand it yeah we have we have lots of those losses, we do a you know intro to philosophy colon cinema colon you know.
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Jose P Zagal: cowboy movies, or whatever it is right, so they I think they they understand that and and the class, which is that i’m not exaggerating right, so I have a lot of suits like man, I thought this class is going to be about games, just like all this philosophy stuff like if it’s it’s halfway.
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Jose P Zagal: For the game students say look in this class we’re going to talk about games i’m going to talk about games in a way, where we’re going to take them seriously.
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Jose P Zagal: i’m going to poke holes at games that went to you know shake him around and we’re going to be critical, the industry, but not in a tearing down the says more in the This is important so let’s talk about stuff that that is important.
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Jose P Zagal: This is stuff that you care about so let’s examine the thing that you care about from a slightly different angle, where you could learn something and have some some insight and so.
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Jose P Zagal: I guess the common complaint is from this from the non game students as well there’s so much games I wish there was more philosophy and for instance I like man.
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Jose P Zagal: That game stuff was super cool I wish there was more of that and unless philosophy, and so I think that if that bout if.
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Jose P Zagal: If that is the tenor of the complaints and that’s good I say that’s the Needle has been threaded right, everyone is feeling challenged a bit and wanting more of something that they’re not getting out of the class.
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Jose P Zagal: So.
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Jose P Zagal: In terms of the students as soon as they’re all shouldn’t working in games coming from lots of disciplines right so engineers artists designers producers they’re all in the class together.
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Jose P Zagal: All of the classes required it doesn’t have like a fixed spot in the in the curriculum grid, as it were, so sometimes it’s what it’s an upper level class just by virtue of the numbering.
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Jose P Zagal: But it does not mean to say that this is a class at all students taking their senior year, for example, so I get sophomore as freshmen freshmen perhaps not so much definitely sophomores juniors and seniors of the class.
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Shlomo Sher: And I guess I guess just just for comparison.
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Shlomo Sher: I I essentially have I I do the class in two different ways.
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Shlomo Sher: Either it’s a just a game designers usually it’s their last semester, where they have me.
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Shlomo Sher: The bfa students right that’s the be a face to face or the MFA students.
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Shlomo Sher: And sometimes we even do, and sometimes we even do them together, though, usually usually they’re separate but the MFA it’s almost always, this is the last semester, this is part of their.
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Shlomo Sher: Part of the last thing that they’re going to they’re going to learn, but I also run this class as an elective.
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Shlomo Sher: Which for for film students, where I have because I work at a film school right, so you know i’ve actors three writers filmmakers which are there’s an interesting difference because many of them are much more to storytelling.
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Shlomo Sher: and understand storytelling a much better and and, in some ways, sometimes do considerably better than my game design students in many aspects of it.
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Shlomo Sher: And what about the the class itself.
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Jose P Zagal: So the class itself, I would say, is the way it’s currently structured and i’m always tinkering with it and changing things around and generic assignment.
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A Ashcraft: course.
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and so on.
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Jose P Zagal: Basically, what has helped students is okay that’s gonna i’m gonna i’m going to give you a bunch of ethical tools to put in your toolbox.
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Jose P Zagal: So that then as you go about your life, you can use these tools to think through issues i’m going to discuss them a lot in the context of games, but these are standard.
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Jose P Zagal: vanilla tools, as it were, so and so basically will spend one class day talking about utilitarianism i’m not have a reading from a more classic book.
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Jose P Zagal: And then perhaps the next two or three class sessions, we might discuss thing game things for which there is a strong utilitarian angle as well.
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Jose P Zagal: So, for example, when we talk about feminism after that we’re going to talk about media effects, because when you hear about games and the media’s a lot of times it’s in the.
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Jose P Zagal: In the context of games are bad because they’re going to do, bad things to people like violent games are bad because they may lead kids to be violent.
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Jose P Zagal: and so on and so will.
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Jose P Zagal: will sort of try to frame the let’s talk about game stuff in the context of like the framework that they’re getting.
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Jose P Zagal: When we talk about social contract theory after that we’ll talk about intellectual property and we’ll talk about games in that context, because it is about rates right this idea of rights and duties and responsibilities, and so on.
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Jose P Zagal: There are some topics that kind of like like I really like to talk about cheating in classes and a whole class type of cheating I haven’t necessarily connected it to a specific framework, as it were, but I say generally that’s the structure there’s a moral framework that they’re getting.
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Jose P Zagal: they’re getting and then some gamers i’ve been classes for conch I don’t think I have a specific class tied to that we do cover relativism once and mostly for me to tell them like don’t use it, but.
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Jose P Zagal: here’s why.
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Jose P Zagal: If you want.
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Jose P Zagal: to know, and I i’m not as effective with that message as I would like so slow doing that in terms of assignments.
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Jose P Zagal: there’s a midterm and a final that have sort of questions that they need to write answers to.
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Jose P Zagal: And i’m more than happy to share all these resources to anybody who’s interested in in the class I either like you get the listening or yourself.
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Jose P Zagal: For assignments, I have them do inside what you call the one page analysis.
364
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Jose P Zagal: And I give them a list of games and they had to pick a game from that list step to play the game a bunch of times.
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Jose P Zagal: And then they had to write a one page paper on that game and then that paper, they need to tell me something make either some kind of moral argument about the game or tell me something that’s interesting about this game in the moral, ethical context.
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Jose P Zagal: So I tried to pick games that have lots of different papers get could be written about.
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Jose P Zagal: So back in the day I had heavy rain.
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Jose P Zagal: Back in the day I had Detroit become a human and I wrote it the Games out just for my own sanity because.
369
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Jose P Zagal: Only so many hours, I can read about my own shop right right.
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Jose P Zagal: And I keep it to one page for me that’s actually been like the most important thing about the assignment.
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Jose P Zagal: Is it it’s only one page long so they really need to rather than wave their hands and say a whole bunch of things about this game is like, no, no.
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Jose P Zagal: You don’t have enough space like make an argument you have one page and like really nailing it can only be one thing if you’re gonna talk about heavy rain it can’t be about how.
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Jose P Zagal: like this character to this this other guy The other thing and how this this one seemed like no just tell me about that one scene, if that one scene was interesting with the game, or that one rule or what that one mission that you had to do, and so on, so forth.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah you know I i’d love to hear about some of some of the games that that you do.
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Shlomo Sher: That you do a sign and you do have on your list because i’m sure it’s a pretty interesting list.
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A Ashcraft: Let me.
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A Ashcraft: Let me ask questions, while we’re still talking about different.
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A Ashcraft: Like philosophical frameworks, do you ever talk about modernism and post modernism as as philosophical frameworks for creativity.
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Jose P Zagal: Oh no I did not specifically um.
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Jose P Zagal: I guess, I would say it sort of feels a little bit outside of the scope.
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A Ashcraft: It is a little outside of the ethics scope, but it is still.
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A Ashcraft: And i’m not entirely sure why it’s become sort of important to me recently to start thinking of those in in in that with that lens in mind.
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A Ashcraft: yeah, but I find myself thinking with that lens in mind, quite often now.
384
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A Ashcraft: And realizing like oh that thought that thought is a modernism thought like it’s a it’s a it’s a way of thinking about the thought I just had an sort of broader sense it’s about.
385
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A Ashcraft: When you have an idea understanding, where that idea of falls on this in this space of cultural and time.
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A Ashcraft: Like where where does you just had an idea that idea came from somewhere yeah here’s here’s here’s a lens for using useful things for that.
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Jose P Zagal: yeah I tried not to so one of the things I have to say.
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Jose P Zagal: I think it’s a little bit outside the scope but but not entirely, and one of the critiques I have my own class which I then also have a response to is.
389
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Jose P Zagal: And you’re not covering enough a philosophy stuff and there’s all these other really interesting ideas and.
390
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Jose P Zagal: Right and your classes kind of mostly focused on old white dude philosophy right which is true.
391
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Jose P Zagal: And so, over the years i’ve added ethics of care as a framework that we talked about.
392
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Jose P Zagal: And, and for the last couple semesters i’ve also added sustainability right so tying into environmental ethics, and so the.
393
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Jose P Zagal: In idea what I say, well, this class you’d be like a two part class that you take over the course of two semesters and then we could probably cover like.
394
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Jose P Zagal: More of the things like that the things I want to teach I don’t have time to teach that would be much fewer right, obviously.
395
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Jose P Zagal: And so it sort of comes down to the when push comes to shove, what do you have to leave out the door, because you only have so many class sessions right right um.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean.
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Jose P Zagal: We don’t talk about the nature of truth in how do we know what is true or not true, I just Mr like.
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Jose P Zagal: let’s assume some people said, some people say that this is a reality that exists that we could somehow it like let’s just roll with that, like it’s all will will assume when it says that there is at the goal ideal and that he says it is that then we’ll just roll with it, maybe.
399
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Jose P Zagal: that’s why I frame it to the students as i’m giving you tools to having a toolbox.
400
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Jose P Zagal: Because I try really hard not to be.
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Jose P Zagal: prescriptive or normative right.
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Jose P Zagal: If, as soon as the other services like man, I really have no idea what Jose would do in a situation.
403
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Jose P Zagal: Like that’s kind of like a win for me in some sense because i’m not trying to politicize them or to have some agenda for them like what I do have an agenda, I tell them like.
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Jose P Zagal: For this class, this is my agenda like this is what I like if anything I want you to you to get this out of this class session today.
405
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Jose P Zagal: But generally I don’t want them to walk in a classic man, I guess, we all have to be consequentialist because all the other frameworks are kind of garbage and the.
406
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Jose P Zagal: Answers like well.
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Jose P Zagal: No, what I want you to be able to do is to identify what situation you’re in and have all the tools, you have your toolbox pick which ones you think are perhaps the most useful for you to think about the problems you can get to your own answer.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I really like the the concept of lenses.
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A Ashcraft: Yes, all of these things are just lenses for looking at things and and there’s you know philosophical lenses and there’s creative lenses and historical lenses there’s all these kinds of lenses we’re just trying to give you as many lenses as possible yeah.
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Jose P Zagal: and actually use that metaphor, I use lenses I tell us lenses and tools and tools to.
411
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Jose P Zagal: actually do actually practically do something, so I thought, like if you wanna.
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Jose P Zagal: If you want to a consequentialist perspective on a problem here’s what you do and I could like here’s five steps follow these steps, and you will.
413
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Jose P Zagal: You will answer this problem right, you will get to the answer that this the sexual get you to.
414
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Jose P Zagal: But it’s also a lens right you’re seeing the world through this way, and that means that certain things are being left out some things are being obscured some things are being highlighted so it’s it’s I think it’s both at the same time.
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Jose P Zagal: it’s great to be fair, have all the frameworks past utilitarianism and protectionism are the most like tool, like in a sense, I can give my kids five steps.
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Jose P Zagal: When it comes to virtue ethics like okay like it’s it’s it’s a lot fuzzier in many ways, but hopefully the identified as a i’m going to.
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Jose P Zagal: Try to be ethical in this framework, and what does that, where do I end up and then in this other framework where do I am and what I think it’s a workplace right.
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Shlomo Sher: um yeah it, you know it’s it’s interesting because.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah I teach my class in a very different way.
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Shlomo Sher: Which is good, I was hoping for that.
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Jose P Zagal: So I listened to an earlier episode of this podcast.
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Jose P Zagal: And you were talking about a game that you play in class oh my God i’m so excited that I, I really want to learn more about that, and so on, so I suspect we either have like 20 more episodes or we have a long like.
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Jose P Zagal: offline position as.
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Jose P Zagal: One of the things like my class.
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Jose P Zagal: doesn’t do is I don’t do a lot of sort of practical like like we don’t play games, other than the games that they’re assigned, and I feel that’s kind of.
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Shlomo Sher: Miss option for me and I actually you know it’s interesting because you know there’s games that I asked them to play that though we don’t ever really play in games in class because we just don’t have.
427
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Shlomo Sher: You know when Andy teaches classes, he has I think his regular class and then the game period, you know the gameplay right class a separate thing.
428
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A Ashcraft: So I teach the basic the first semester intro to game design and it’s twice as long as almost all the other classes, so I have time.
429
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A Ashcraft: to sit down and play games with them, we play a lot of board games card games, a lot of tabletop games.
430
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A Ashcraft: So yeah I have lots of time to play games in my classes.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and and I don’t I don’t have that, and you know it’s interesting because you know I teach a lot of applied ethics courses and that’s that’s really where i’m interested in and I I.
432
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Shlomo Sher: So when I teach ethics of video games in the beginning my my first day is essentially just I have a whole bunch of hypothetical.
433
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Shlomo Sher: games and I asked them to I put them in groups I have them essentially make moral judgments about these games rate their morality, you know as a as a group, compared to each other, discuss when we talk about issues their potential sexism and representation.
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Shlomo Sher: Manipulation dark you know dark patterns, you know games that touch on reality so kind of kind of stuff like that, and then the.
435
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Shlomo Sher: Next, two weeks that kind of give them a crash course in ethics ethics basics, where I just throw the theories in there and like you do try to make sure that they’re not relevant relativist.
436
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Shlomo Sher: But let but let’s say I do.
437
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Shlomo Sher: I do content like three slides and and you know remember this idea that you know he thinks that dignity comes from the ability to make your own decisions and that’s a key key thing when we think about player autonomy.
438
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Shlomo Sher: And uh but I kind of focus, I only do really like a you know what a week and a half, on the ethical theory, then I leave all the theory behind.
439
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Shlomo Sher: But what I do add is, and this is something I take from my something that I came up with when I was at usc with a business ethics, with a business Professor guy I teach them, step by step, were making ethical decisions.
440
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Shlomo Sher: So it’s an ethical decision making procedure it’s kind of an eight step procedure and we I have we watch an actual movie.
441
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Shlomo Sher: Oh, my God it escapes my mind, all of a sudden, what what movie it is.
442
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Shlomo Sher: But we watch a movie and we kind of take the big decision in the movie and as groups to kind of walk through that decision so they’re getting practice and ethical decision making and then later on when they do presentations they pick a topic.
443
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Shlomo Sher: In video games that they’re going to present on, and they have to kind of make an ethical decision from the perspective of the game company.
444
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Shlomo Sher: Or, or maybe the government or maybe the player depending on kind of the topic.
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Shlomo Sher: Once that’s done, essentially, I have a I have a by the course into two after that social issues where we do we do we do violence with a game is dilemma.
446
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Shlomo Sher: Right so comparing and we did a show on the gamers dilemma.
447
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Shlomo Sher: Though.
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Jose P Zagal: I listen to that one as well i’ve been working my way up.
449
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Shlomo Sher: You know, we did a show on it and Facebook will not let me boost.
450
00:55:56.550 –> 00:56:03.660
Shlomo Sher: That that episode because apparently it’s deals with social issues, and it has had the name pedophilia in it yeah.
451
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Jose P Zagal: i’m tricky.
452
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but you know, a dude that issues about representation and sexism.
453
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Shlomo Sher: cheating as well censorship is is another big one, that that we get into.
454
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Shlomo Sher: So.
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Jose P Zagal: Many hmm moral premise.
456
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Shlomo Sher: not really moral panics, but I think at some point we talked about the idea of a moral panic.
457
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A Ashcraft: We out right yeah.
458
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A Ashcraft: they’ve come a recession but it’s not we haven’t focused anything on moral panics yet.
459
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Shlomo Sher: Right and you and I have talked about moral panics but, when it came comes to censorship right as definitely a possibility.
460
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Shlomo Sher: Beside that manipulation and kids right So those are kind of manipulation kids I think that’s kind of an end around there, then I have a second part, which is my last five weeks, which is my favorite part where the beginning introduction to that section actually has your picture on it.
461
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Jose P Zagal: starts on it or.
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Shlomo Sher: I just thought I just realized that it’s I think you you you like pointing or something.
463
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Shlomo Sher: About ethically notable games.
464
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Shlomo Sher: Okay um and we discuss ethics ethically notable games and it’s dedicated essentially to how to make.
465
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Shlomo Sher: How to create an A more dimension to games.
466
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Shlomo Sher: And, which is definitely inspired that again this is inspired by your writing kind of to begin with.
467
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Shlomo Sher: And what I have them do is essentially they have a project that we take five weeks in doing of creating a game that tries to take a social issue.
468
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Shlomo Sher: and explored in the game Okay, so this is something i’m personally really, really interested in right so when you were talking about right the real power of games right to.
469
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Shlomo Sher: give you these kind of ethical experiences I want them I want them to do that yeah obviously you know I want him to think about doing that it’s not easy to do, but we we kind of they have a project, where every week we kind of talked about.
470
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Shlomo Sher: You know the idea of what is ethically notable.
471
00:58:10.590 –> 00:58:16.290
Shlomo Sher: How moral dilemmas work different techniques for creating ethical reflection.
472
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Shlomo Sher: Calm morally complex characters right and they kind of build I don’t know what do you call those things Andy where you’ve seen.
473
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A Ashcraft: A pitch document basically.
474
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Shlomo Sher: yeah something like a pitch document.
475
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A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
476
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Shlomo Sher: And you know and we work on it every week so every week we look at the ongoing process and kind of talk about it, and by the end they got you know.
477
00:58:40.230 –> 00:58:51.960
Shlomo Sher: Usually, some of them have good ideas, some of them don’t have very good ideas but it’s it’s that creative process that we’re trying to kind of kind of do with it, and you know we we go that way.
478
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Shlomo Sher: So it’s it has relatively in there, I throw little bits from philosophy like we talked about different models of corporate social responsibility.
479
00:59:02.520 –> 00:59:17.640
Shlomo Sher: You know, you know stuff like that we talked about you know negligence or recklessness and manipulation and you know in marketing and stuff like that, but for the most part, I you know it’s either the social issues, or how do we bring this stuff in the games.
480
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yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: And i’m hoping that someday one of my graduates, you know will will actually make a game, you know my personal thing that I really, really want is I want people to go out and make more serious games.
482
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Shlomo Sher: You know, like you know, like peacemaker.
483
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Shlomo Sher: You know, like papers, please you know that explores certain issues and i’m hoping that they can do that they feel it’s less daunting to do that.
484
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Shlomo Sher: yeah because God it seems really hard to you know i’ve had so far three pretty good ideas about games about abortion.
485
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Shlomo Sher: And you know God.
486
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A Ashcraft: How many.
487
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Shlomo Sher: about abortion.
488
00:59:58.800 –> 00:59:59.550
A Ashcraft: Out of how many.
489
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Shlomo Sher: Of the people had tried.
490
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Shlomo Sher: that’s a pretty good three out of six maybe.
491
01:00:05.880 –> 01:00:15.840
Shlomo Sher: i’ve had i’ve had one good game about racism from the 10 people who have tried, maybe you know I mean God racism is so hard you know you know to do to work with period.
492
01:00:16.140 –> 01:00:16.710
Shlomo Sher: But that’s.
493
01:00:16.740 –> 01:00:24.270
Shlomo Sher: That that’s kind of like where where were we were where we go, but I also don’t i’m not cross listed with loss of it.
494
01:00:25.320 –> 01:00:31.620
A Ashcraft: How do you i’m going to change the subject a little bit, how do you approach, the idea of fairness.
495
01:00:34.290 –> 01:00:37.320
Jose P Zagal: um do you mean the concept generally.
496
01:00:37.500 –> 01:00:38.820
A Ashcraft: yeah the concept generally.
497
01:00:41.580 –> 01:00:45.600
Jose P Zagal: We actually talked about it in the context of cheating and loop boxes.
498
01:00:49.170 –> 01:01:04.470
Jose P Zagal: In in in the cuts the cheating we use me a console has a book on cheating and we use a chapter from her book to sort of set up the ground, and we have talked about how complicated cheating is because it is so socially constructed in and defined and.
499
01:01:05.550 –> 01:01:09.870
Jose P Zagal: In that sense, fairness is similar right.
500
01:01:11.520 –> 01:01:14.280
Jose P Zagal: And a lot of students have a hard time wrapping their head around that.
501
01:01:17.220 –> 01:01:20.970
Jose P Zagal: Because they have sort of notions of an ideal sort of blank slate kind of.
502
01:01:22.080 –> 01:01:23.190
Jose P Zagal: sensation of fairness.
503
01:01:23.820 –> 01:01:24.360
and
504
01:01:25.980 –> 01:01:32.130
Jose P Zagal: You know, we could talk about Well, this is chess fair so i’ll just this totally fair okay is me playing chess it gets a two year old to.
505
01:01:32.430 –> 01:01:36.630
Jose P Zagal: Barely knows the rules is that fair and they go well that’s not fair well why isn’t the fairies and the same game.
506
01:01:37.290 –> 01:01:51.270
Jose P Zagal: And I say well well it’s not fair, because you know a lot more, you have experience and so okay so So then, how do we know what what is fair, I guess it depends on the people is to depend on our standing and someone and other constant loop boxes.
507
01:01:52.710 –> 01:01:56.340
Jose P Zagal: Actually, but one little box that says this idea pay to win right, so a lot of.
508
01:01:56.400 –> 01:02:04.140
Jose P Zagal: Unless a lot of Western students really object to pay to win, especially comparison, subject to pay to win because they say, well, as it gets you an unfair advantage.
509
01:02:05.730 –> 01:02:09.840
Jose P Zagal: And then I then I often have so in our program we have a lot of international students.
510
01:02:10.170 –> 01:02:10.950
Jose P Zagal: like this.
511
01:02:11.430 –> 01:02:23.580
Jose P Zagal: So I can benefit from them, bringing up the fact that well and in China, for example, pay to win isn’t seen as a bad thing in fact it’s seen as a more honest thing actually like well, what about well how is that Morris well.
512
01:02:24.570 –> 01:02:34.560
Jose P Zagal: it’s like if you’re richer you you do better and and that’s just the way it is you know that’s and it’s Okay, if you do better in the game if you’re rich and then we’ll look if you’re richer in the real world.
513
01:02:34.920 –> 01:02:43.200
Jose P Zagal: You will do better, a lot of things in the real world, you will be able to eat better food, you will be able to have a better House a bigger place you know all those kinds of things.
514
01:02:44.070 –> 01:02:51.060
Jose P Zagal: Weapons right yeah and for the students, they don’t like they had never made that connection right, this would be like well, I guess, I didn’t realize that i’m.
515
01:02:51.600 –> 01:02:57.690
A Ashcraft: Like I tell them that forced forced them to think about whether or not that’s that that bigger issue is fair or not yeah.
516
01:02:58.200 –> 01:03:01.440
Jose P Zagal: And it’s also think of what advantages or disadvantage they might have.
517
01:03:01.530 –> 01:03:02.550
Jose P Zagal: As well in the game.
518
01:03:02.940 –> 01:03:08.070
Jose P Zagal: And why are the interest of the game are they interested in the game because it’s presumably.
519
01:03:09.270 –> 01:03:14.550
Jose P Zagal: A temporary context in which everything that was a part of you is left at the door.
520
01:03:15.480 –> 01:03:24.990
Jose P Zagal: Right it’s a place where if you’re richer or poorer it doesn’t matter if your skin color is this tone or that tone it doesn’t matter, and I think that’s a world that many was would like to live in right where.
521
01:03:25.410 –> 01:03:32.160
Jose P Zagal: It doesn’t matter what your skin color is and so on, but it forces us to think about to recognize that.
522
01:03:33.120 –> 01:03:45.720
Jose P Zagal: Even in that world there’s still some stuff that is coming out from the outside and coming in and how do we, where do we draw the line and for which things and why right do we draw the line it is it intellectual capacity is that’s okay.
523
01:03:46.860 –> 01:03:49.320
Jose P Zagal: Is physical ability that’s that’s okay.
524
01:03:50.550 –> 01:03:54.840
Jose P Zagal: Is you know why, why do certain things get left out door and others don’t right.
525
01:03:56.310 –> 01:03:56.610
A Ashcraft: Right.
526
01:03:57.030 –> 01:03:58.500
Shlomo Sher: This is the magic circle.
527
01:03:58.740 –> 01:03:59.760
A Ashcraft: Right, I mean this is.
528
01:03:59.790 –> 01:04:02.100
Shlomo Sher: That that that we discussed.
529
01:04:02.430 –> 01:04:04.620
A Ashcraft: yeah very first episode was about the magic.
530
01:04:04.620 –> 01:04:09.180
Shlomo Sher: circle and what things how permeable it is and how permeable it isn’t yeah.
531
01:04:09.360 –> 01:04:17.640
Jose P Zagal: And the answer is well it’s a concept that’s useful for thinking about things, because obviously it’s 1,000,000% permeable right and we see it as engaged to write.
532
01:04:18.810 –> 01:04:22.410
Jose P Zagal: Our American football players in the nfl are they playing a game.
533
01:04:23.340 –> 01:04:34.200
Jose P Zagal: And it gets respect debate this industry said well they’re professionals they’re getting paid to do this, is it work and it’s like well yeah it’s work but it’s also a game and it’s also fun, but there’s money at stake and injuries are real and so on, so forth.
534
01:04:34.800 –> 01:04:43.680
Jose P Zagal: And, and that says that’s no different to me then i’m logging on to play clash royale and I spent you know $500 getting all these.
535
01:04:44.130 –> 01:04:48.990
Jose P Zagal: crates and I got some really good cars, I level them up and so i’m able to make my way to a certain point of the ladder.
536
01:04:49.680 –> 01:04:54.120
Jose P Zagal: Because I have these these cards right so to just recognize it within games right that’s.
537
01:04:54.660 –> 01:04:58.980
Jose P Zagal: How much of this how much of your success is based on your skill, how much success was based on your luck.
538
01:04:59.280 –> 01:05:07.740
Jose P Zagal: How much of your success is based on additional factors that may have been i’ve been in your control like wow like how much money, I was willing to spend how much time is willing to spend practicing and so on, right.
539
01:05:08.910 –> 01:05:13.950
Shlomo Sher: Right that’s before we get into your your jeans and where you happen to be.
540
01:05:14.700 –> 01:05:17.310
Shlomo Sher: yeah you know where where you happen to be born, etc.
541
01:05:17.340 –> 01:05:32.310
Jose P Zagal: etc, etc um and to be fair, I so this class because of the exists in the context of the broader program there’s a lot of things that I might spend more time talking about if they weren’t all game students, so my game design class, we talked about game balance.
542
01:05:34.140 –> 01:05:37.710
Jose P Zagal: And so they are there’s a very different notion of fairness in that context right.
543
01:05:38.040 –> 01:05:43.050
Jose P Zagal: Right um but the students will be taking we’re often be taking both classes, and so I can.
544
01:05:43.410 –> 01:05:44.700
Jose P Zagal: kind of rely like remember.
545
01:05:44.790 –> 01:05:51.150
Jose P Zagal: The paint on which order to take him at remember and ethics, when we did this now, now we like let’s look at now on this other contexts and vice versa.
546
01:05:51.450 –> 01:05:52.470
Jose P Zagal: So I do get a bit of.
547
01:05:53.280 –> 01:05:56.550
Jose P Zagal: The benefit of being able to lean on other classes in that way.
548
01:05:57.720 –> 01:06:05.040
Shlomo Sher: um so uh you know in our show you know we talked about kind of.
549
01:06:05.910 –> 01:06:21.720
Shlomo Sher: topics in intersection of ethics and video games and kind of three different ways right so social ethics about video games right like addiction right things that impact society right ethics in video games like cheating or trolling with justin an episode on trolling was super fun.
550
01:06:22.770 –> 01:06:31.800
Shlomo Sher: and ethics of video game designs right, so you know things like more morality systems which do you think is the most important for game designers to be thinking about.
551
01:06:32.910 –> 01:06:35.100
Jose P Zagal: game designers or do you mean game developers.
552
01:06:36.090 –> 01:06:36.840
Shlomo Sher: Again sure.
553
01:06:36.900 –> 01:06:39.810
A Ashcraft: game developer yeah let’s let’s broaden it out okay yeah.
554
01:06:40.470 –> 01:06:41.970
Jose P Zagal: hmm ah.
555
01:06:44.190 –> 01:06:47.850
Jose P Zagal: I think, was the social aspects, I think, are the most important.
556
01:06:49.590 –> 01:06:51.360
Jose P Zagal: And I say that, in the sense of.
557
01:06:52.410 –> 01:06:55.800
Jose P Zagal: This is where your work will have the biggest impact.
558
01:06:56.250 –> 01:06:56.940
Jose P Zagal: On the world.
559
01:06:59.160 –> 01:06:59.460
So.
560
01:07:00.900 –> 01:07:13.530
Jose P Zagal: If you want to be a really good craftsman in across percent in like designing cool systems, then maybe you might have an interest in morality systems and cool Ai things that you could do, and so on, so forth, but I think like at the end of the day.
561
01:07:15.510 –> 01:07:19.920
Jose P Zagal: Your game is something that you want to throw out into the world you want other people to play it.
562
01:07:21.000 –> 01:07:31.530
Jose P Zagal: If you are looking for a commercial success, you want millions of people to play it and, and in that sense, the impact on society or perhaps the most significant.
563
01:07:32.520 –> 01:07:44.190
Jose P Zagal: Part of your games legacy and I think Todd thinking and talking about those parts of the legacy that are unknown unwritten underneath the surface, I think should be.
564
01:07:45.360 –> 01:07:52.800
Jose P Zagal: At the forefront of every game creators mind like i’m not saying like this is all you think about, but if I think if you’re not worrying about like what’s what.
565
01:07:53.400 –> 01:08:00.330
Jose P Zagal: How will the world, be a better place by putting this out there in the world if you don’t have like an answer to that that is satisfying.
566
01:08:00.810 –> 01:08:02.730
Jose P Zagal: To you, then, then why are you doing what you do.
567
01:08:02.790 –> 01:08:16.560
Jose P Zagal: And I think some people say like look I just I put this out there, because I need I need to be grant I got bills to pay I need to put food on the table, I think that’s totally valid and legitimate and fair like i’m not saying every game needs to make the world a better place.
568
01:08:18.420 –> 01:08:26.760
Jose P Zagal: But I think if anything if you think of someone as a as a game creator as a professional and as someone who wants to become better at your craft.
569
01:08:27.660 –> 01:08:38.460
Jose P Zagal: Maybe that’s a good vector to chase right is i’m better at making games, because every game, I put out there, I think, does with the world.
570
01:08:39.240 –> 01:08:44.400
Jose P Zagal: A favor and it makes the world a better place, and I think if you’re on your deathbed as the game difficult like man, what are you proud of.
571
01:08:44.640 –> 01:08:55.650
Jose P Zagal: i’m proud that, through the Games I help contribute towards making and getting out there, the world became better I think no one would objective like oh What a waste, you should have said you would rather spend more time in the Office like no one’s.
572
01:08:57.750 –> 01:09:09.660
Shlomo Sher: Though though of course they also goes the other way right, you know what’s your biggest regret right and right just as as designers developers can be proud of what they do, they could also regret things that they’ve done.
573
01:09:10.050 –> 01:09:12.420
Shlomo Sher: yeah and you know, the last thing you want to.
574
01:09:12.420 –> 01:09:16.530
Shlomo Sher: do is be thinking about God, I really wish I didn’t do that as part of my legacy.
575
01:09:17.070 –> 01:09:29.790
Jose P Zagal: yeah exactly oh man I shouldn’t I shouldn’t I should not have contributed to that game that led to and did a game lead to things that’s already like a super challenging and problematic question and difficult.
576
01:09:30.540 –> 01:09:31.020
Jose P Zagal: But I think.
577
01:09:31.410 –> 01:09:45.390
Jose P Zagal: This is sort of in the in the thinking in the in the long term and the ideal right and they perhaps even in this is maybe very Aristotelian right it’s a name, you know, think of the ui moni our day one yeah I never know how you supposed to pronounce that so I tell.
578
01:09:45.450 –> 01:09:46.620
Shlomo Sher: them I know your diamond the.
579
01:09:47.010 –> 01:09:48.060
Jose P Zagal: diamond yeah there we go.
580
01:09:50.130 –> 01:09:55.530
Jose P Zagal: So, in that sense right like i’m always going to chase this better version of myself.
581
01:09:55.560 –> 01:10:03.060
Jose P Zagal: And i’m going to taste this better version of myself, also in the things that I do like i’m going to chase making a better game that is better for good reasons.
582
01:10:04.440 –> 01:10:06.510
Jose P Zagal: And I think if you if you nail.
583
01:10:07.590 –> 01:10:17.130
Jose P Zagal: That side of like what are the themes of your show that I think the cheating the trolling the ethics in video games and the ethics of video games that sort of comes along yeah I think you get that for free.
584
01:10:17.820 –> 01:10:19.050
A Ashcraft: yeah yeah you’re right and.
585
01:10:19.290 –> 01:10:25.740
A Ashcraft: The ethics of of the business of making video games to sort of comes along for free with that too.
586
01:10:26.070 –> 01:10:39.300
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah right so it’s this kind of brings you back to what you said earlier about you know bigger professional right you want to think about what it means for you to be professional in the way that you know.
587
01:10:40.320 –> 01:10:42.900
Shlomo Sher: is a way of being that you could be proud oh yeah.
588
01:10:44.610 –> 01:10:49.380
Shlomo Sher: Okay um let’s let’s wrap it up, because I know we’ve been going for a long time.
589
01:10:49.380 –> 01:10:50.130
Shlomo Sher: Now just.
590
01:10:50.580 –> 01:10:51.360
A Ashcraft: Just over an hour.
591
01:10:52.350 –> 01:11:04.410
Shlomo Sher: was a cake cake, can you take us out with just like a Can you give us like your top three of the things that you think is most important today when it comes to video games in ethics.
592
01:11:06.780 –> 01:11:08.160
Shlomo Sher: or let’s say let’s say top two.
593
01:11:08.940 –> 01:11:15.600
A Ashcraft: Or how about this, what are the top three most recent games that are really good games to look at for ethics.
594
01:11:16.950 –> 01:11:17.820
Shlomo Sher: You get you get a.
595
01:11:18.000 –> 01:11:19.740
Jose P Zagal: choice of hard question oh so many.
596
01:11:19.770 –> 01:11:20.370
Jose P Zagal: hard questions.
597
01:11:20.850 –> 01:11:26.130
Jose P Zagal: And I supposed to come up with a snappy short response and then you like, and then, and then the episode ends.
598
01:11:26.280 –> 01:11:28.110
Shlomo Sher: I could always add it yes yeah.
599
01:11:29.730 –> 01:11:31.410
A Ashcraft: We can make you look very snappy.
600
01:11:38.880 –> 01:11:39.570
Jose P Zagal: I think the.
601
01:11:42.000 –> 01:11:48.270
Jose P Zagal: Okay let’s try this so two part challenge for people that are in the industry.
602
01:11:49.830 –> 01:11:53.340
Jose P Zagal: I think perhaps for too long, many of you have been.
603
01:11:54.870 –> 01:12:01.920
Jose P Zagal: Not thinking about some of the issues that the industry has and i’m not trying to like throw anybody under the bus here.
604
01:12:02.490 –> 01:12:03.270
A Ashcraft: No, but i’ll take it.
605
01:12:03.870 –> 01:12:20.400
Jose P Zagal: And so, in that sense, I think, starting to have these conversations and to really act and to start to do things to make the industry a better place to work, but also in the industry that is more responsible about the things that it does, I think, is super important.
606
01:12:21.420 –> 01:12:32.700
Jose P Zagal: that’s the first level of challenge, and we might say that well that’s the challenge that we’re just we’re going to fight but we’re never going to win that, and so the second challenge is to people who are thinking of entering the industry.
607
01:12:34.170 –> 01:12:41.130
Jose P Zagal: Maybe your students, maybe you’re someone who’s moving sideways from one career to another and to say Okay, as a new person to the games industry.
608
01:12:42.210 –> 01:12:59.640
Jose P Zagal: You are super important and that you can be a driver of change, and so the challenge is how do you join in industry and help it turn into an what you would like it to be done rather rather than to conform to what it already is.
609
01:13:00.810 –> 01:13:05.340
Jose P Zagal: And yeah in a super like really, really, really narrow example.
610
01:13:07.260 –> 01:13:08.430
Jose P Zagal: That I tell my students.
611
01:13:09.450 –> 01:13:14.040
Jose P Zagal: I basically tell them look when you’re interviewing for a job interviewing is a two way street.
612
01:13:14.730 –> 01:13:23.130
Jose P Zagal: The company is trying to determine whether or not they want to hire you whether they want you to join 13 whether you will be an asset to that team, but you are also.
613
01:13:24.060 –> 01:13:34.470
Jose P Zagal: interviewing them and you need to decide if this is a company that you want to go workout and if this is a company that where you would feel comfortable participating it and so.
614
01:13:35.520 –> 01:13:42.750
Jose P Zagal: You have power in saying no I don’t want to work at that company, because I think they put out products that are really bad and they have no interest in changing that, for example.
615
01:13:43.020 –> 01:13:48.930
Jose P Zagal: Or you have power and saying I don’t want to work with that company, because they don’t treat their workers very well or whatever it is.
616
01:13:49.500 –> 01:14:00.000
Jose P Zagal: And I think this recognizing each of us as individual has power exists, as consumers, we have power to choose not to buy the games that were made under conditions that we don’t agree with, or they have messages that we don’t want to console him.
617
01:14:00.300 –> 01:14:00.660
A Ashcraft: I think.
618
01:14:00.990 –> 01:14:03.930
Jose P Zagal: We don’t often think enough about the power that we have as individuals.
619
01:14:05.490 –> 01:14:05.850
Jose P Zagal: that’s it.
620
01:14:06.630 –> 01:14:12.450
Shlomo Sher: Jose I gotta tell you this is a part of that is already coming into my end of class speech.
621
01:14:14.160 –> 01:14:18.780
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s a it’s it’s so important, I realized Why am I not talking about that.
622
01:14:20.220 –> 01:14:27.630
Shlomo Sher: All right, thank you for coming for coming on the show is a we definitely you know we definitely hope to have you back.
623
01:14:28.230 –> 01:14:36.270
Shlomo Sher: Please, you know as a we do I don’t know if you if you’ve listened to any of the later episodes where we started, we have a kind of way of ending the show.
624
01:14:37.290 –> 01:14:40.440
Shlomo Sher: We end the show with instead of good game, we do a good podcast.
625
01:14:41.460 –> 01:14:42.990
Shlomo Sher: So good podcast GP.
626
01:14:43.350 –> 01:14:46.620
Shlomo Sher: GP will you do with this good podcast and a.
627
01:14:47.460 –> 01:14:48.510
A Ashcraft: Good podcast.
628
01:14:49.260 –> 01:14:49.980
Jose P Zagal: up all the way.
629
01:14:50.040 –> 01:14:51.300
Jose P Zagal: thanks for the invite it’s been a real.
630
01:14:51.330 –> 01:14:51.930
Shlomo Sher: pleasure right.
631
01:14:52.110 –> 01:14:58.200
Jose P Zagal: And I hope for, I look forward to be invited again if assuming I think tank your ratings in your downloads and you listens.
632
01:14:58.800 –> 01:14:59.070
A Ashcraft: you’re.
633
01:14:59.130 –> 01:15:00.480
A Ashcraft: Not possible yeah.
634
01:15:01.140 –> 01:15:02.040
Shlomo Sher: play nice everybody.
