[Release Date: July 19, 2022] Hundreds of millions of players have pirated video games. Most of them didn’t feel any guilt about it. Some even felt justified. But game companies, like virtually all producers of creative products, have told us for decades that piracy is wrong – that it’s theft somewhat similar to stealing physical things. Are they right? We’ve teamed-up for this episode with the hosts of the Studying Pixels Podcast to try to shed some light on whether or when pirating video games is morally justified.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
| stefan_simond | So for everyone at ethics and video games I’m Stefan Heinrich zimont I’m a game study scholar from Germany. |
| Dan | Um, I’m Dan Hughes a japanese scholar from Texas. |
| shlomo sher | Hi everyone. Ah I’m slow share I’m a philosophy professor and video game methicist from Los Angeles |
| Andy Ashcraft | Hello study in pixels people I’m my name is Andy Ashcraft and I am a game designer and I teach game design. |
| stefan_simond | Wow Welcome Everybody everywhere. Ah. |
| Dan | This is very exciting. |
| shlomo sher | All right that this is our ah None time to collaborate. Ah so this is a ah co podcast collaboratorion studying pixels and the ethics of video games podcast. Ah and ah, what are we talking about Stefan. |
| stefan_simond | Yes. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, we’re talking about the ethics of piracy because the thing is that over the course of our shows several times we hit upon the subject of piracy and we never really found our position and we always thought like we need to talk to someone. |
| shlomo sher | It. |
| stefan_simond | Has some expertise on the matter and that’s when I reached out to you Shlomo. So what we really are curious about is the moral philosophical positions on piracy is there any are there are any conditions under which piracy can be morally permissible that would be. Key question that we have to answer. |
| shlomo sher | Okay, so so that’s our idea. First of all, let me say I wouldn’t say I’ve like high expertise in the piracy specific issue but Piracy is like ah, many other um, you know, like like many other activities that we engage in and ah. There’s of course ah kind of classic ethical reasoning ways to to think about these things. Um I’m assuming None of all that none of us has engaged in piracy ever. Never right. |
| stefan_simond | Never I would never um. |
| Dan | No, no, we’re all good boys I think. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Ah, so so general listeners. You should know that we’ve been chatting about this for before we started recording and we’ve all yes where we’re all part a little bit not much but a little sure. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, it. |
| Dan | Yes. |
| shlomo sher | Even even you Andy a little bit. Okay I’d figure in your younger years. Okay, right? It’s interesting because you know the the as my assumption is that as the game designer you would be. |
| Andy Ashcraft | And my younger years and but in my poorer years. |
| shlomo sher | The one of us who is least most likely to have pirated and I’m assuming that still is the case that you still have pirated less than the rest of us. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Yeah, that that and should I’m I’m sure that will be the case when we when we when we get into it I’ll be the one saying hey you know don’t steal my work. |
| Dan | It’s funny because when when Stepan and I had talked about this before we always ended every conversation with well we we really don’t know where we stand we should really look into it more and just talking to you Andy briefly. It’s just I know I know exactly right stand. Thank you very much. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yesterday it. |
| shlomo sher | Ah. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah but but the interesting thing is that Andy just said, don’t steal my work and I was wondering does piracy equate to stealing because I do remember from when I was a child. Oh let’s say child to teenage years I always had the situation that I used to pirate. A whole lot of video games I’m just going to admit that right I went to the movie rental and then I got a disc and then I cracked the game or got like a key Gen or whatever and then I I kept it so technically I stole but my parents they would never get upset about it whereas on the other hand if I were to go to a store and I would. Steal a bit of chewing gum which I never did. But I assume if I had done that my parents would be super angry and would be like no, you ought not to steal. Don’t do that. That’s bad. That’s why a weird disparity isn’t it. |
| shlomo sher | Right? And you know, um I I don’t know by you Dan but I what I first started ah getting games illegally and I don’t know if we called it pirating back then getting crack games but I was like I think 14 maybe. |
| Dan | Oh. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, and this was ah this was 1986 and I would go to what we call duckmes I was a computer so I was in a computer science magnet back then? Ah, and um, you know I would take my commodore one 28 along with the screen and everything to. Some sort of auditorium and there would be like a whole group of people there and we would all be some of them had hard drives as big as two megabytes um and we would be essentially copying crack games. Um, at a you know, ah directly to each other right? Ah and I never. |
| Andy Ashcraft | How. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, no meta. |
| shlomo sher | Remotely thought there was anything wrong with that until years later when people started talking about music piracy right? Um, in which go ahead, go ahead. |
| Dan | I I was just going to say my my experience was kind of similar because I went to a boarding school where we had a local kind of um intranet and all of these games. Some some lunatic had cracked a bunch of different games and put them all on to it was accessible to everybody so it was just kind of commonplace that if you wanted to play the latest game. You’d just wait for this guy to put it up and you’d get it downloaded onto your laptop. So I was I was about None too and. |
| Andy Ashcraft | No, right. |
| Dan | It didn’t cross my mind I think mainly because that was just what was done at the school but I never had the thought that oh I’m doing something bad here until a little later. |
| shlomo sher | Great. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right? And there’s and and it turns out like when you’re in school too. But there’s all this stuff that is just free and shared right? All of your books. The library. There’s a library there. There’s you know you would never actually take home a library book and keep it. |
| Dan | Right. |
| shlomo sher | Right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | But you would had no have no problem just going and getting a library book and reading it and taking it back right? and like um. |
| Dan | It’s funny. The thing the the J store of video games. It was just the access to everything that’s kind of what it was too. |
| shlomo sher | Except Jay except Jay is a friend of yours and all of these are you know, illegally pirated gays right? So so to answer Stephan’s question right? Um I think we can start kind of with the um, what what I’m what I’m thinking here is kind of 1 |
| Dan | That’s right. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, extreme of the issue which is which is ah I forgot where I got these categories from but the the category is called the the fundamentalist protectors and the idea there is essentially exactly the way Stepon put it is look if you’re essentially ah pirating video games what you’re doing is essentially exactly analogous to common theft. There really is no no different right? People have a right to their stuff. Their creation is their stuff right? Notice their stuff is their property taking it or accessing it without permission is plain stealing and needs to be punished in the exact same way as stealing it. So if you guys remember and I’m sure you do the. Kind of ah warnings that for pirating warnings that you would get on video games. They seem very much to take kind of this idea right? pirating is stealing. This is exactly the same as stealing but you know obviously if you ask somebody what’s wrong with stealing. |
| Dan | Oh yeah. |
| shlomo sher | What they would say is well if you know if you stole my laptop. What’s wrong is I don’t have a laptop anymore right? Ah, your gain is my loss but in piracy when you know we don’t have ah an an analogous situation. Um. |
| Dan | Um. |
| shlomo sher | We have something that in some ways in a nowll is analogous Potentially but certainly this seems to be an important difference between the two and the go go go hit step on. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, it’s like it’s like this level of abstraction I think that really influences our intuition when we think about that because yes, ah like if I crack a game from some kind of publish. Let’s say a cracker game from Two K then. 2 K did not lose that game. They can still sell it. But I basically ah deprived them of that one sold copy of that The revenue of that one sold copy right. |
| shlomo sher | Or you potentially deprive them right? and this is where things get weird right? but and then we have the other point that the fundamentalist protectors is going to make which is to say. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s right. |
| stefan_simond | Because yeah, yeah, yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| shlomo sher | You know, a lot of times people say piracy is not a victimless crime but illegal downloading harms creators. Ah in terms of you know this would be lost income right? Ah so right? you’re not stealing what they have but you’re stealing what they’re going to get right? Ah and um and this is it. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Dan | Right. |
| shlomo sher | But this is the key. The key is that this is ah important enough right? Ah to be counted as serious as common thievery because you’re still, you’re steel even if even if you’re not stealing what they currently have in stealing what they’re going going to have you’re still stealing an exact normal way that we talk about stealing. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right? And and some people argue that that well I’m not stealing with what they’re going to get because I was never going to buy it. |
| shlomo sher | And. |
| shlomo sher | Right? And and there’s a lot of arguments this way. In fact, you might so there’s examples and I think the most famous one is ah game of Thrones where piracy ah made game of thrones more popular right? Ah piracy actually led to more people. |
| Dan | M. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, watching game of thrones ah to more people ah paying for game of thrones I think to more Hbo subscriptions ah as well. Ah, um, fair enough Andy um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, it would be hard to prove that it would be really really hard to prove that. |
| Dan | Um, I was going to I was going to say yeah. |
| shlomo sher | This is this is certainly ah I’ve read this in a couple places. Um it it certainly doesn’t seem though like it’s beyond the um ah you know, ah Beyond imagining that something can get popular ah through piracy. Ah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Who. |
| shlomo sher | To the point where enough people are interested to actually help the the I p itself right? and. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, it’s also something where just ah make a significant difference of whether you can afford it technically right because I I found some some statistics. It’s a little bit hard to find good data on the matter. The only like. |
| Dan | And you. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, sure. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right. |
| stefan_simond | Big survey that I could find was from None from pc gamer they did like an online survey with None people and I found there that up until the age of 25 the most common reason for why people were pirate games is that they say they can’t afford it and that calls into question this entire idea of. If I would not have pirated would I have then bought the game if I can’t afford it have a really deprived company of that sale you know because I wouldn’t have bought it anyway. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right? right? and and to that I say that there’s probably a percentage of people for whom that is true and that percentage is important because let’s say it’s it’s 90% 90% of the people who pirate games can’t afford them. We’ll just pull a number of out of out of the air right. |
| shlomo sher | Right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That means that there’s one out of 10 who can and so every time 10 people download the game I’m losing one sale. so so really what you’re so what you’re stealing is 10% of ah of the ah of the revenue. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah I also have to say that admittedly, ah, this survey obviously people just simply participated in that survey and might not have told the truth but according to their percentages. It’s roughly ah like between 50 to 60% of people. Um. |
| shlomo sher | Age stay hey. And. |
| stefan_simond | Younger than the age of 25 they said the reason for why they pirate video games is because they can’t afford them. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| shlomo sher | Ah I I want to I Want to add a little something to this which is cognitive biases. We have to remember our psychological cognitive biases are people really rationalizing when they say they can’t afford it. You know what does it mean to say that you really can’t afford it does it mean that you don’t want to save up. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, um. |
| shlomo sher | To get this thing um because in many cases That’s exactly what that would be all right I mean. |
| Dan | M. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Does it mean? yeah, doesn’t mean that I can’t afford it because I really want this frapuccino. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Right? right? I mean you know what? what does that? exactly mean I mean um so I used to really I used to collect a lot of music right in the days of of Cds right? and I bought you know, ah hundreds of cds at full price. |
| Dan | Right. |
| shlomo sher | Right? As a student with because it was my passion you know, ah and some of those were shitty Cds with no refund policy and I kind of want to get into that late because I think refund is is kind of really important the the thing is is really important here. But um, you know could I afford them. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| shlomo sher | Well I could afford them if I skimped on other things and I think the same applies in some cases to games and that for a lot of us that say that it’s not so much that we can’t afford them is that we are. Rationalizing it for arself White. It’s okay to get it for free when really if it really came down to it. We could afford. Let’s say half of those games or a quarter of those games right? but some amount and if this was our passion if pirating wasn’t an option I’m willing to bet that that number would go up. But. |
| Dan | Oh. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, oh. |
| shlomo sher | You know in the same sense. Um, from the game designer perspective. There would be a kind of ah we’re all kind of looking for with confirmation bias to kind of looking for the evidence that to shows to show that we’re already right? So from the game designer perspective I would assume that. There would also be self-serving biases about um about the the value and of the wrongness involved in ah um, in pirating video games though. It might not be as bad to be honest, as ah, you know. As as the rationalizations that so many of us would have I think. |
| Andy Ashcraft | I Do know that that you know it’s certainly when you’re thinking about the harm that it causes somebody indie game developers. Are you know have a hard time making a living anyway. So try it. You know if you’re going to if you’re going to rationalize away. |
| stefan_simond | I Assume that right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Ah, pirating games. You know, make sure you’re pirating from the big guys and not the indie guys. Ah. |
| shlomo sher | Which is which is interesting. Ah you know in in my ah in my contemporary moral issues class I’ve I’ve asked students about ah what did they think the punishment should be if you steal something like ah None worth of clothes from Target and. |
| Dan | M. |
| shlomo sher | The majority of them are like oh Target. Oh they’re a big company. Ah, very little not a big deal and it’s interesting that notice so this isn’t just with um you know, ah indie developers right? It’s with any kind of like big company and ah. Small retailer. Do you guys think that’s true Dan and Stefan. |
| Dan | So speaking as someone who also has an insurance background. It’s funny to me when I hear the argument of um, well you know Walmart target they’re huge they’re huge companies you know if you steal a candy bar if you steal even something like none worth of clothes. They have loss prevention. You know they eat that cost and what you don’t think about when you rationalize it that way is yeah but then we’re all paying for it in premiums and money that’s going up anyway. So it seems like you’re kind of sticking it to the man by taking something like that and I think the argument probably persists with. Big triple a video games like well what is activision losing I’m taking this game. Well there’s a lot of people who work at Activision who see ramifications of that I would imagine at some at some level so to me I think it’s. |
| shlomo sher | That. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, oh yeah. |
| Dan | It’s maybe easier with video games when you’re especially if you’re cracking a game because it’s not a tangible product. So you’re not actually walking out of the store with it you you can. That’s your None level of rationalization and then beyond that you say well I didn’t really take any money from them. But I think. |
| shlomo sher | Um, right. |
| Dan | Broader Picture There’s a lot of ramifications that we don’t think about. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah I totally agree I also think that this idea of stealing from ah big corporations is let’s say more acceptable than stealing from an indie dev or. Like would you steal from Toby Fox you know, most people will probably say like no of course not because there’s so much passion in these video games and it’s just None person making all of that and he has to so to sustain himself on on these games I think it’s a bit of a problematic rationale because we have to then kind of determine. At which degree. Do. We draw a line which is like super difficult from a moral philosophical perspective and we have to also as as you said Dan a 100% degree with that we have to consider that there are people working at Activision and theft is or like pirating games is probably not going to hurt. Ah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| stefan_simond | Bobby cottic or soon Phil Spencer as much as it is going to hurt like the people that actually work there that might not even be involved in the development itself. But maybe other kind of staff members that work in you know, like on the lower end salary spectrum. So I think. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, will will it really though Andi like and no. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Yeah, for sure I can actually sort of talk to about talk to that a little bit so when you’re in ah, a big company like an Activision or an ea publicly traded company. You have um what you’re really going to do is if if you manage through you know, None of None of people downloading. |
| stefan_simond | It’s a problematic rationale. |
| Dan | Um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Your games for free and not paying anything what you’re going to end up doing is just um, they they they simply will will focus their game. They’ll focus the money that they have on the 3 titles that they know that will make them the most money and you’ll end up just. |
| Dan | Ah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Cutting into the diversity of games that are being produced by these companies because they won’t be able to make the profits that they need in order to to sustain the you know, diverse small interesting games ah games that that they might be able to do something really really great with. |
| shlomo sher | That’s it just take ah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Because they have a bigger reach. You know there’s ah, there’s a real good reason for why why a game developer might want to go and get published with a big company and not just put up put their game out as an indie studio and that is because of the reach of these companies and the and the publishing might and so you know you’re potentially. |
| Dan | Sure. |
| Andy Ashcraft | You know, taking a game they’re they’ll potentially saying oh well, we’re not going to publish this small game because you know we need to focus our our interests on e on on you know Madden and call of duty and you know and the None sequel of. |
| Dan | Whatever it is well that’s really interesting to think about because I remember 1 of our previous conversations was around metroid dread which had all of this great press and people really loved it. But it was also a lot of people were pirating it if I remember correctly to. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Whatever this other game it I don’t know. Yeah. |
| Dan | Kind of upscale it and mod it for themselves to make it look better. So that’s another topic we you’d get into but I remember when when that happened the discourse around it was if we’re not if we’re not buying Metro dread. We’ll never get another game like that because they’ll just see okay well that didn’t do so well. Ah. |
| shlomo sher | Um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Human. |
| Dan | Don’t care how many people pirated or played it. It didn’t sell like we were hoping So we’re not going to make another project like that we’ll focus on I don’t know animal crossing dlc or something right? So yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, that’s that’s exactly right. |
| stefan_simond | Especially yeah, especially what you said Andy adding to that point I could also imagine that there is then of course a trend to develop live service games. Multiplayer games. Those would be the big franchises that we already referenced because those are significantly harder. To pirate because you need to be online in order to play them and they are like drm um, checks running in the background that will make it harder. So then you think well where are we making the most money you know in such games possibly yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Not to mention that you’re moving everything to micro transactions. You know where I mean where you just can’t hire it them. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, that’s right. Right? And there’s no surprise. There’s no surprise that these that these 2 things these None these None aspects have coincided way they have right? The growth of Dr M and the growth of anti-piracy stuff has paralleled the growth of. |
| Dan | M. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Of and of of like online purchases and free to play models and those sorts of things pretty much directly just because these a solution for 1 thing offers game potential for the other. |
| shlomo sher | Um I want to I want to if we can ah we talked about the kind of ah the fundamentalist protectors I’m wondering if we can now go to the other ah side of the spectrum and then. |
| stefan_simond | Yes, please I’m curious. Yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Is this is this I Also want to I Also want to bring in and this is probably the place to bring it in the idea of the tragedy of the commons because isn’t that what this is isn’t the internet that are big commons. We could just go and like download stuff. |
| Dan | Yeah, absolutely. |
| shlomo sher | Um, okay, and. |
| Dan | Um. |
| shlomo sher | Right? So the tragedy commons would be that ah, it’s in each of our interests to download this pirated pirated games. But if all of us do it? No one pays for games and there’s no games. Yeah, that’s that’s great Andy ah, um, yeah, but of course, um. |
| Dan | Yep. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| Dan | Yep. |
| shlomo sher | You know the questions going to be you know are we in a situation where we were all in the same place and um I think one of the situations again is the the who can’t afford it. So let let let let me say something about the fundamentalist libertarians here. And what that position is going to be like and Lyn. Let’s see if we can ah get somewhere in the middle. So um, the fundamentalist fundamentalist litarians are going to say look all information information should be free, right? All information all ideas all creative products should be free available to everyone and None reason for that is. Ah, look the world would just be a better place if if we did this right? people would get more access to more books more software more games that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to play. Um, piracy is especially common in places that um, just really, you know it’s easy for us to to talk. Ah. You know about you know when I was a kid I couldn’t afford it. But if you’re a kid growing up in you know Vietnam ah or ah Nigeria or you know, ah lots of places across the world. Um, the norm is that everything is pirated because you really can’t afford it. So this idea of game spreading ah in places where um, you know affordability is a real real issue and you know I mean I remember ah I remember traveling 9094 in the Middle East and in Europe ah and everywhere. Ah, everywhere people were were poor. Um, no one was selling actual tapes. Everything was pirated all right. That was just the expectation because it was outrageous given the relative amount of money people locally had. |
| Dan | Next. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, but yeah. |
| shlomo sher | To charge. Let’s say I can get a pirate tape for two bucks but ah, it would be like fourteen bucks or fifteen bucks ah if it was like the the regular version. You know it was almost insulting to sell it at that price to that population and mind you. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, but. |
| shlomo sher | I Think that’s a difficult question everywhere where you have I mean if because if you were going to sell it for less than that those people can turn around with those legitimate copies and so make a profit out of them right? This would happen. You think about pharmaceuticals which is a really really big. |
| Dan | Um, oh sure. |
| shlomo sher | Pirate pirating if we call it pirating right? But I p kind of situation if you’re to sell pharmaceuticals really cheap to like a poor country. Obviously there would be corruption that would use it to sell it for more money to you know a less poor country. So. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Yeah, the the those firm those pharmaceuticals would just end up back in the Us right. |
| shlomo sher | Or maybe back to the Us but they get the boast money for him right? Um, so but but that is a real issue for a big part of the world that’s kind of the way they can get games in the none place and then and then maybe they can. Still with that give something to the game company. For example, ah, you know, maybe this is where microtransacts can’t come into play so they can’t do the whole game but they can do you know things here and there um and the the other people here is um, you know sometimes people pirate because. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Are. |
| shlomo sher | Things are just not available in their area all right I mean I think that’s less and less the case. Ah, but certainly that’s been the case with movies a lot ah in ah in in the past. Um, and then there’s to me this is the kind of interesting part. So um, for music. Ah, once Napster came about ah I was all over Napster. You know? Ah, but that point I think I had something like none cds in my collection. So I had like a wall covered with Cds but once Napster came I almost immediately stopped buying cds um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Are. |
| shlomo sher | Because Napster allowed me the ability to download ah me download music the music I wanted download music without penalty and then bittor came where I could literally like download a collection of a hundred gigabytes of MP three s right? where. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, um. |
| Dan | Yeah. |
| shlomo sher | And I could all check it out later. Um, now that essentially um, you you know that essentially spelled seemed to spell doom for the music industry. Um, but it also led to things like. People listening to music on Youtube it led to today I have an have a Spotify subscription and also I have a subscription to ah, ah, ah curez ah, which is a cubaz. Ah, which is awesome. It’s like a high fidelity music streaming where you can stream at 28000 k per per second instead of like ah what would be your normal mp 3 high end mpthree is None this is 28000. It sounds amazing and I can stream it into my stereo system. |
| Dan | So cool. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, one. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Wow I I can’t imagine if I would be able with all the difference as as a layman I would not be able to tell the difference between those music streams. |
| shlomo sher | And it’s just like listening to music before. |
| shlomo sher | You you know part of the reason is I haven’t listened to a Cd in 20 years or almost because MPThree s made things so convenient. But once you kind of get back into high fidelity. You’re like oh my god this is so amazing and because of the whole. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | MPThree Napster kind of threat to the Cd model. They came up with these services and now I pay through services now I realize the services. Um, maybe don’t pay small artists as well as you know, big artists. Though, maybe that was always the case with labels to some way. But at least you’ve got something like this and I think those things kind of matter that sometimes pirating could be a push to give people something ah different that might even be better I i. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, the ones. |
| shlomo sher | Don’t buy that many games these days because mostly me my son play. Whatever None games we have in Xbox you know on our subscription model to Xbox and we really like that subscription right? I mean there’s so many games there for us. Maybe we don’t need to go pirate games. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| shlomo sher | Notice that’s kind of another way to kind of and within that package. You can also fit the smaller games that might get lost to to pirating. |
| Dan | I think. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s right, That’s and that’s and that’s been the industry like that’s way the industry is sort of focused. They’ve gone. They’ve gone with these sort of and and music industry too right? They’ve gone with these subscription policies or they’ve gone with free to play where basically. |
| Dan | M. |
| Andy Ashcraft | It doesn’t make any sense to go through the hurdles of pirating a game when it cost you free or a dollar or you know and you could just get it really easily by this with a really nice interface and you know people actually paying attention to what your user experience is ah. You know it’s just a better experience and so sure I’ll pay a dollar for the better experience. |
| Dan | Um, I think my to be kind of the the devil’s advocate here because this is always the sticking point for me on the subject of accessibility and availability I always think I love streaming services I think they’re fantastic Spotify. |
| Andy Ashcraft | And. |
| Dan | You know any of the you know Netflix Disney plus whatever it is right I think that they’re great, but what worries me is things go away from them right? Licenses kind of a change or people they get removed or things things go away. It’s not the same as having the physical copy. |
| shlomo sher | Um, right. |
| Dan | And the troubling thing about video games especially is that when you’re talking about game ah sort of I guess like ah being a Librarian for games or a historian for them. There are certain games that they just either don’t physically exist Anymore. Or they’re very difficult to find and they don’t digitally exist So There’s this kind of feeling that if you want to experience a game that isn’t remastered or re-released or on a streaming service. You’re kind of out of luck and that’s where the kind of. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Dan | To to put on my romantic hat for a minute feels like it’s like withholding art from people and that’s the thing that I always struggle with especially not just you know here in America and in Europe or in um, you know None America wherever but the global south you know places that you mentioned shalomo where it’s just like you. You can’t even get. |
| Andy Ashcraft | yeah yeah I think that’s a really really good point because ah game technology has moved forward. You know at at a rate of Moore’s law um and you know and so you I have. |
| Dan | Normal games normally like how how would we expect people to dig into game history. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah I think unavailability. |
| Andy Ashcraft | I Have a dream cast and you know and so I can play my old dreamcast games. But if I didn’t have that dream cast this this would be a coaster. Ah ah, this disc would be you know a useless a useless item to me and there would be no way for me to play this. Ah this game. Ah. Again And of course if I if I wanted to play a dreamcast game that I didn’t have you know if I couldn’t find it in one of the used bins somewhere and ah you know a used a used game store I would have to figure out a way to to play this game and as ah as an educator I frequently want to play games that. Are no longer. You know in being published no longer so you know this is I think the idea of of like there should be a library for games that have fallen out of print. |
| Dan | Um. |
| stefan_simond | You know I think Unavailability is certainly one of the strongest reasons why piracy can be morally legitimate because you’re preserving art. You’re preserving culture and you wouldn’t have been able to purchase it. Anyway, if it’s like properly unavailable. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s right? and so you’re you’re not depriving. You’re not depriving anybody of anything. Nobody’s expecting any royalties from from the 20 year old dreamcast game. |
| Dan | M. |
| stefan_simond | Exactly though the thing is that especially like streaming services but also as you Dan said um remasters and remakes are really trying to counter that or these. |
| shlomo sher | Um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, and then. |
| stefan_simond | You know mini consoles any es mini s and ES mini maybe there would be a dreamcast mini at some point or you get the dreamcast collection on some kind of sega mini console. Ah I think these are all endeavors to make games available which then again delegitimized. |
| Dan | Um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, I would yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | And this is I think this is a real difference between games and music right? because we can listen to music now that we bought forty years ago we don’t have any problems I mean maybe you don’t have a record player. |
| stefan_simond | Piracy morally deleggitimize it and. |
| shlomo sher | Ah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | I don’t have a record player but I know people who do have record players and if I if I find you know a piece of vinyl that I want to listen to I can I can very easily solve that problem Cds are starting to you know Cd players are starting to like fall out of out of production right? You can. |
| shlomo sher | Starting? yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Buy a new car it no longer comes with a Cd player. So ah, you know, maybe my but that None cd wall that Shlomo has is going to be all coasters at some point. Ah. |
| Dan | Yeah. |
| Dan | So. |
| shlomo sher | Oh it. Oh they’re all gone I’ve or they’re deep in the closets but there were coasters for a while and then there was that time when ah those I think there was ah a moment in kind of a culture history where people are like what else can you do with a Cd object. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right, you is that it if the speed you made to look like a vinyl That’s great. |
| stefan_simond | I Actually I actually do have have that ah like ah yeah, yeah, that’s vi I’ll used to collect vinyl records and I had to sell my entire collection because it was moving places and needed furniture instead I got these actual coasters like. |
| shlomo sher | There you go Oh nice. Ah. |
| shlomo sher | Um, right, nice right? um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um I. |
| Dan | Actual poster there you go. |
| shlomo sher | Yeah, you know there’s also to to me part of what’s interesting about video games and piracy is kind of the question of how the medium is is really different and you know it’s interesting. How ah one of the things that really bothered me about So you think about the things that led to music piracy. |
| Dan | M. |
| Dan | No. |
| shlomo sher | A big part of it was you bought a record and the record like you’ve heard one song on the radio and you know I like I went to a record shop ah a few months ago with all you know I’d like I just got a record player and I I went to like a record shop and I was like god damn it I can’t listen to these records. |
| Dan | Who. |
| shlomo sher | I have no idea what most of these records are I’m expected to and they’re expensive to spend like forty bucks on a record ah without being able to to you know and back then it was like let’s say you know $18 on a Cd which was still like in the let’s say if you’re like the mid 90 s I mean that’s that’s a lot all right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right, who’s expensive. Um. |
| Dan | Yes. |
| shlomo sher | But but it was the only way you can get the product that you wanted. There weren’t no, there weren’t any other formats and there was no refund policy on that it wasn’t like you can always sell it to a use you know to use music store but you know to me there was an injustice in that in the None place right. |
| Dan | Um. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, and you know one thing that ah things like Napster did is allowed you to get exactly what you want and know more of that and once ah songs. Ah, once companies responded by selling songs bit by bit so you would pay a nine nine cents for a song or something like that. That at least addressed one of the problems. The industry had um and and ah once you got streaming services that really kind of addresses a lot of the other kind of problems and to me I’m kind of wondering if games have any kind of any similar thing to that I will say that I think games are. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Incredibly fairly priced and meal in my opinion if you’re buying a good game. It’s really cheap like for the amount of entertainment that you’re getting. The only question is is there. Ah a so sufficient return policy because if you’re paying sixty seventy bucks for a game. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Or even thirty bucks um do you have a way to return it because you have no way you know to really know what that game is like and ah ads are so often misleading in games. What was that Andy. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, note is that true that you don’t really know what the what the game is like let’s so we’re and when you’re talking about 60 or $70 games you’re talking about the triple a titles that are getting a lot of things. Ah. |
| shlomo sher | Bright. Sure. |
| stefan_simond | Well I mean statistically at least I I Just checked it and the reason demo the game that is the None most popular reason for why people say they pirate games and after the age of 25 It is the most popular because I Assume. Ah, you know as people get older. They have a little bit more money at their disposable a little bit more disposable income and that’s why demoing the game becomes more important to them. |
| shlomo sher | Right? right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Is it. |
| shlomo sher | Though a though Andy’s kind of oh sorry and and he’s kind of right I mean these days you can watch so many walkthroughs of a game though you may know I don’t like watching walk walkthroughs I know will’ll give me an idea of the game. But then I’m seeing someone I want to be exposed to the game in kind of an original. |
| Dan | I think I are no good for. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right? right? I mean it’s It’s always better to play the game like the the feel of the game is going to be different when you’re playing it yourself and when so you’re watching somebody else play it? Ah but no, so so that’s a fair point. Um, you know it used to be that demos were free. |
| shlomo sher | Ah way. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That there were that people made Demos here’s another aspect that I want to bring in and because you’re talking about about games having a fair price and that’s the other way that again when we’re talking about these big Triplea games. So we’re not talking about. You know we’re not talking about mobile games or we’re not talking about free to play games. We’re talking about this very this very niche market. |
| shlomo sher | Look right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | It’s a apparently it’s a big niche but it’s still a niche market within the whole video game universe and that’s and that’s that that triple a market and it’s 60 or $70 the people that buy alea games. Um, when ah we know. |
| shlomo sher | Fair enough. |
| Andy Ashcraft | As an industry. We know that you buy a certain number of them every year. It’s it’s ah and it’s a low number. It’s probably none you probably don’t buy that many of these ale a games a year which means from the marketing departments of these companies what they’re when they see you what they’re seeing is a. Pile of money that is about $600 right right? And so so they want you to buy their game. They want you to spend that $600 on their games. |
| Dan | Well at least they’re honest about it. Ah. |
| shlomo sher | Okay. |
| Andy Ashcraft | And they know that you have $600 to spend on games. So the best way to do that is to make those games more expensive, not less expensive and make you want there. |
| Dan | And. |
| shlomo sher | Okay. |
| Dan | Assuming you’re going to you assuming you’re. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Spend there that your money on their game as opposed to there because that’s super competitive right? it so super competitive market and so because they know you only you have $600 and they want all of it if they could sell you 1 game for $600 they would |
| Dan | Right? because I think well the idea would be. |
| shlomo sher | Um, so why more expensive instead of less expensive. |
| Dan | Yeah, yeah. |
| stefan_simond | And they do if you consider that you have games we we talk um about these things like full price games versus microtransactions almost as if they are separate things but indeed over the years these things have so much converged that you pay for I remember that I purchased like I think. |
| shlomo sher | Right? right? right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, oh yeah. |
| stefan_simond | An assassinre valhalla for like $80 and there was still additional stuff to purchase on top and then an an additional in-game shop for cosmetics because that’s I assume and that I think is a very interesting rationale to maximize profit and to get as close as possible to those $600 |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Dan | Right? because I guess the the idea being all right? if if you’re going to buy 12 games I as as triple a company 1 am assuming that 9 of those will probably not be bought with me so I’m going to make my 3 as expensive as possible right? yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, that’s exactly right. |
| shlomo sher | Though though again for the amount of you know, let’s say you know the Sassas Creek valhaa right I mean I know I put sixty eighty hours into that for the amount of money that we’re talking about. It’s such a great value. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s right, That’s exactly right. |
| Dan | Yep. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Oh yeah, oh it’s It’s a great deal and so it’s a wonderful value. It’s absolutely wonderful value and the people who put their their their heart and souls in the making these games and Their’re huge teams. They’re absolutely well worth the money. But I’m say from point of view. |
| Dan | Yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Right? right. |
| shlomo sher | If you’ll like it right right? right? But but my my point with the with the return policy is that you know I I think um, you know if there’s an unfair return policy. That’s another potential. |
| stefan_simond | Exactly Ah I was about to like is it worth. |
| Andy Ashcraft | You are a pile of $600 you know |
| shlomo sher | Justification that might not be a terrible justification for down, especially if you want to demo it. But if I don’t know how many people really are like I’m going to demo it and then you know buy pay full price I I wouldn’t um, but ah, but. |
| Dan | And then buy it. Yeah I’ve demoed it now I’m going to complete it. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right? And how to say I don’t I mean almost all of this stuff is being sold on the app stores now and you know so almost none of this is is box product where you go to a store and you buy a box and and and take it home and and. |
| Dan | M. |
| shlomo sher | Um, right. |
| shlomo sher | Right? By the idea is still the same isn’t it that you can um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Install it. Ah this is yeah I mean good degree. Yeah, there should be a. There should be a simple return policy and there would be easy right? I Want to demo this game. You know, let me download the demo version and it’s you know and. |
| Dan | Um, I think that? Yeah yeah, um. |
| Dan | And you have I I think I think steam has that policy. It might not be for every game but it’s you know if you’ve if you’ve only logged 2 hours in this game you can get your money back. Um, and so things like that I think are are reasonable I’m i’m. |
| Andy Ashcraft | It’s half an hour long |
| shlomo sher | Right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah I think those are great. |
| shlomo sher | That. |
| Dan | Yeah, yeah, and I’m I’m struck by you know, but piracy as this sort of competitive force against the industry where it’s like okay, let’s look at piracy. Why are people pirating games. Well they want to be able to try them out. Okay, make that possible digitally right? and then they’ll stop pirating games I think that. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| Dan | Yeah I mean just with the music industry example you see this back and forth to the point where now if I just want one song off an album I’m not beholden to buy that entire album I can just buy the one song or stream it or listen to it on Youtube and donate to the artist in some other way or or patronize them in some other way and I think that. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah I I I consume most of my music over Youtube now. Well. |
| Dan | Yeah, yeah, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Where it’s free right. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, talking. Maybe maybe come back to to the Napster thing that’s something that um I’ve been chewing on a little bit because um I understand the comparison and on the other hand I feel like when it comes to the cultural history of video games. There is something. Profound about piracy that is deeply inscribed within its culture with ah you know like the the cracker scene the demo demo scene and so on especially like in the 80 s and ninety s it was so common to even make your own title screens for video games where it was not even something where you wanted to. |
| shlomo sher | Um. |
| stefan_simond | Hide that it was a pirated copy but you essentially added something or made a change which is not something that happens usually on Napster almost like as if piracy is kind of and a part of a video game culture part of video game aesthetics. Even so. |
| shlomo sher | Is. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s ah, that’s a good point too because in the early days of video games. There was this there was a there was a model. There was a business model of shareware right? where you’re literally like this is made to be shared. |
| Dan | Oh yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | And you know there will be some you know some way of of monetizing it and you know some other ways you know down the line but that was a model and and people got used to that as a model right? Oh right I can just share software. |
| shlomo sher | But there was also a hacker culture involved in it so you would get cracked by and you know this would be ah a thing where you where you get to show off your your skills right? And other people can know that you’re a badass because they’re getting a game that was cracked by you. |
| Dan | Me, um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, that’s right. |
| Dan | Well and then you have you have these sort of weird recursive examples where you have so Stephan you mentioned Toby Fox earlier he he got his start with a ah a rom hack of earthbound and then or 1 of the mother games and then he made. |
| shlomo sher | Um. |
| Dan | Undertail as sort of ah, an answer to it and now he’s working for Nintendo as a musician so it’s this. It’s this interesting thing where oh well. Okay, if I look at that it does kind of seem like you’re legitimizing it to some degree where you’re bringing this guy in you know. |
| shlomo sher | News. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, it’s not even ah yeah, it’s not even a rare example if you think about the fact that games like doom or quake were part of this entire shareware culture I think where was like kind of wasn’t it the case that it’s software when they made doom. They even made like their level editors and everything freely available to people so they could mod the game change the game make their own levels and just say like go to Town. You don’t have to invest extra money in this. And that’s part of why doom became so popular and now sells such tremendous figures. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Yeah, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | But it’s pretty clear that this is right? It’s you know we’re going to Define pirating is essentially ah you know which we it’s interesting. We haven to find pirating you know, right? right. |
| Dan | Right? Might have been good. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, you think um. |
| stefan_simond | That’s true. We haven’t. |
| shlomo sher | But but it’s interesting right? Where where you know you’re essentially getting your hands on something that the company sees as its product right? That’s something that’s not something the company is giving to you. So if they’re giving you the ability. Obviously they’re you know to them. That’s not the product. |
| Dan | Um. |
| stefan_simond | That is true that is true. That’s not piracy. It’s it’s shareware and shareware as such is made for sharing. That’s why it’s not pirating. It’s like as if a bakery says here you have a bun for free then you can’t say I stole a bun. |
| shlomo sher | Right? ah. |
| shlomo sher | Right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, that’s right? um. |
| shlomo sher | Right? You know that there is something that we’ve talked about that ah that we haven’t talked about yet that I thought I’d throw into into the conversation. Um, you know great. Um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | By the way we’re we’re 45 minutes |
| shlomo sher | That you know one of the things that kind of gets involved in piracy is the question of fairness right? If you’re essentially you know pirating your games. Essentially you’re relying on other people subsidizing your gaming experience. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah. |
| Dan | Um. |
| shlomo sher | Right? And that itself right? Ah, just seems unfair right? Ah, you’re refusing to participate in the game economy. Ah, you’re forcing other people to essentially ah pay for for you. Um, the element unfairness to me again. It’s it’s. I Think partly related to what is it that you actually can’t afford what is realistic and I don’t know if there’s a hard line here or I certainly um I I don’t know what I exactly think about it but certainly there’s at some point where again I think our rationalization about what we can afford. Take us a really really long way. Ah, and there’s a point where um, we have to remember that other people are Subsidizing. You know our gameplay ah people that may just be ones who maybe have more. |
| Dan | Yeah, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | I Don’t know more of a moral sense that we do that It’s important to do the right thing and they see pirating is wrong or maybe ah people who ah don’t have the access to pirate and technologies but are still you know, ah supporting the industry just by by buying games or people that really can’t afford. |
| Dan | And. |
| shlomo sher | Afford it. But the whole thing seems unfair in terms of just you’re relying on other people to keep things going for for your benefit. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Right? And I think that’s ah, that’s a marketing question and ah and a business model question right? There’s None and None of freewear Game. You know free to play games that rely on you know, None of None of players ah rely On. Ah, small handful of people who pay for everything and that’s a business model. Not just a business model. |
| Dan | Um, true. |
| shlomo sher | Right? That’s true, right. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah,, but but wouldn’t it possible. Be possible to flip it on its head that argument because yeah, it is the case that then the people that pirate they rely on the funding basically of others but on the other hand. We also kind of made that argument that if you really can’t afford a game or if it is entirely unavailable to you then we see it as less morally problematic so that would wouldn’t that mean that the more money you have and the more access to games and video game culture. You have the less. Ah it is. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, so yeah. |
| stefan_simond | Possible to legitimize your piracy and that’s why such people that definitely surely ought to buy games whereas people that have less money and less access for them. It can be rather legitimate and that can be a way to restore this kind of fairness. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Absolutely absolutely. It’s ah it’s basically my ah the the definition of my politics eat the rich. |
| Dan | Think I agree with I am. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, ah. |
| shlomo sher | Ah way we’re we’re going back here to to Ea and an act his it right? um. |
| Dan | Yeah, yeah, where we’re. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um. |
| Dan | Um, well I yeah I think that ah for this has been this has been really ah enlightening for me because I I always feel like we we come to a place where we say well, it’s kind of this gray area but I almost feel like all right I’m a little happier in the in the gray in the sense that. Think what? what we just described and Andy what you brought up about how you’re going to get stuck with the same kind of games because those are the ones that sell if we engage in this I think that where I would probably land is that if you have the capability truly. Right? Then don’t rationalize it. You should pay for your games right? but where it starts getting kind of gray is okay well what if it’s a game that’s not published anymore and you want to experience it I’m a little more lenient on that kind of situation I think yeah, right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right? Yeah, absolutely. |
| shlomo sher | Well that one you don’t even have a choice so I don’t know you know what’s there to be leading about right right? um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, your choice not to not to experience it right. |
| Dan | What’s the problem? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. |
| shlomo sher | I I I do want to add something that maybe that maybe hasn’t been said. Ah, which is ah pirated games give None of people. Great joy and um, you know this is kind of the utilitarian in me speaking. |
| Dan | Ah. |
| shlomo sher | That it really kind of needs to be remembered ah in some ways the world is a better off place because people pirated games and have greatly enjoyed these games not to dismiss the downside that Andy is is raising because I think it’s real. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| Dan | Um. |
| shlomo sher | But I think the other point that Andy raised that was particularly interesting is um, you know the free to play model right? once you because we’re in the days we’re free to play is so so common are there really legitimate reasons for pirating today now that we have. Now that we do have this free to play model. That’s so so common that’s subsidized by whales and that leads to its own problems but you know at least it maybe it doesn’t allow for give us reason to to pirate and that we do have kind of streaming bundling services. Ah that most ah, ah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, right. |
| Dan | No. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, gamemming gaming platforms ah are doing that are affordable. You know $15 a month is is what I pay I think and you know that’s affordable, certainly to you know? ah you know, ah westerners if not most people across the world if gaming is is your passion. |
| Dan | M. |
| shlomo sher | Are there still reasons to pirate today giving these changes and maybe these changes were partly led by pirating fears and I don’t know you know about that. But maybe they take away a lot of the reasons to do it in the None place. |
| Andy Ashcraft | That’s what I think and that’s what the industry is hoping of course and I don’t and I don’t know the numbers I couldn’t tell you whether it’s true. But I suspect it probably is I suspect that that all of these things have made piracy a lot less interesting for people to do. |
| Dan | And. |
| stefan_simond | Yeah, it’s more cumbersome you have to be more invested in the technology behind it and you don’t know whether it works and worst case scenario you get fined. It makes it a lot less attractive and I think especially if we consider that ah you ask Shlomo is there any reason for why people should pirate. I don’t have any empirical data to back that up but I would suppose that a lot of people pirate games and I’m not justifying that because they want to play new games when they come out before they enter into these streaming services before they are available on sale and I think. That is probably 1 of the least justifiable reasons for pirating games. Yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yes, right. |
| Dan | Um, the thrill the sheer thrill of piracy. |
| shlomo sher | Right? But well no, it’s more than that I mean no, it’s yeah, it’s ah it’s a good point right? A game comes out. You’re not going to get it in these bundled streaming services. Ah you still want you still want to play it. Ah so all all that desire to do that is going to be there. |
| Dan | M. |
| shlomo sher | And you don’t know if it’ll be in if he’ll ever be in these streaming services and how long you’ll have to wait for it and I mean okay so the motivation can certainly still be there whether it’s justified I guess still relies on some of the other things that we talked about today. |
| stefan_simond | Now I’ve got None brief question. Ah, and that’s just a proper gray area which is let’s plays and playthroughs. Only briefly. We can’t go into the subject at length. But I’m wondering that is kind of an area where. Publishes and developers seem to just have some kind of silent agreement with ah sometimes explicit but often silent or implicit agreement with youtubers that you can just take my game and you can play through all of it and put it up on Youtube and people can watch it then and might not buy it. And just say I’ll just watch it on Youtube is that something that is kind of the contemporary form. Maybe even replacement of this hype of piracy in the 80 s and ninety s that we’re seeing. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Ah, in my opinion. Ah, no because because the play is the thing ah to to to misquote the bard. Ah, ah. |
| Dan | Yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | You know playing a game is so much different as as schlummo talked about before is like it’s so much different to play a game than it is to watch somebody play a game. Ah, certainly the story like like you could you could potentially you know reveal things in the story or like like things that you wanted to be surprises as a game designer. There are things that i. Like to surprise and delight. We talk about surprise and delight life a lot in game design like I want to surprise and delight my players and if they’ve seen it on Youtube then they don’t get that surprise and delight. Um, but maybe they maybe they don’t get the surprise but they still get the delight because it’s playing is different. And I so I think playing it is so much different than it is to watch it that that oftentimes I think that the publishers don’t worry so much about the Youtube the benefit of of people talking about it on Youtube and you know creating that community of people who are players and having. Stuff for those community that community of people to do and talk about and and ways of discussing things is more valuable than sales that might be lost because somebody will watch the Youtube video and decide. They didn’t need to play it. |
| Dan | Um, I also think I agree with that and I think that this is this is harder to prove but there is an old Youtube channel it’s defunct now it was called two best friends play and it was one of the early let’s play channels on Youtube and they kind of cut their teeth by looking at older games. |
| shlomo sher | Share. |
| Dan | That people maybe didn’t hear about or they didn’t know about and a lot of those games whether through any influence from these folks who they they had a big audience. A lot of them have come back into the into public discourse and so it’s it’s interesting that you’re showcasing this old thing that you had a lot of love for and. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah. |
| shlomo sher | Um. |
| Dan | Maybe that sparks ah another installment or some more work for people or or who knows right? I I don’t know how you could quantify that but I feel like as you say you’re not taking away the core experience of playing from someone if you’re just showing it. You’re you’re basically doing a long form advertisement in a lot of different ways. |
| shlomo sher | Right? right. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah, yeah, exactly. |
| Dan | Yeah. |
| shlomo sher | A guys aside I feel like we’re ah ah, probably at a pretty good spot for ending them. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Yeah I did there is one thing I do I I do want to. There’s a note that I would like to sign off on though. Um, if I can um which is you know at the end of the day. Ah you know in 20 years when I retire. Um. |
| Dan | Um, yeah. Sure. |
| Andy Ashcraft | I Would like to you know, retire in some comfort from the money that I’ve made in my in my video game career. Um, but honestly when somebody comes up to me and says oh I played your game when I was a kid that that is what I love. |
| Dan | M. |
| shlomo sher | Um. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Like I remember playing your game when I was a kid I liked your I liked that game. Those are that’s way more important to me than money so it sounds like I’m ah I’ve been super judgy about you know you should never never pirate. But honestly, you’re playing my game and you love my game and you tell me that when I’m 70 so long as I’m not. You know, living on dog food I’m okay. |
| Dan | Ah, well that that warms my heart to hear just on its own. So not that I’m not that I’m pirring all your games Andy I’m not confessing to that. but but I do ah I I think I appreciate your perspective though because. We don’t often think about it from that side and I think it’s really valid when you’re considering this. So yeah. |
| stefan_simond | Okay, then I would say everyone Thank you So very much It was a great pleasure talking with you. |
| shlomo sher | Ah, great chatting with you guys all right? And yeah, we’ll finish. We’ll fit this off ya or so yeah, we we we we all’t have way we yeah. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Super fun. Thanks so much. |
| Dan | Thanks everyone. |
| Andy Ashcraft | Um, yeah, are from it. |
| stefan_simond | Ah, you always clap. Yay. |
