[Release Date: July 13, 2021] “Why do you play the games you do?” is a psychological question that describes your motives. But “why should you play games?” is very different. It’s an ethical question that’s also asks the existential question: “what’s the point of playing games?”.
In this episode we explore how the answers we might give to these last two questions relate to the biggest ethical question of all – “how should you live your life?”
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: Okay alright all right Andy.
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Shlomo Sher: Why do you play games what what’s the point of playing games for you.
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A Ashcraft: Right, well, it depends on the kind of game, I guess, there are some games that I play on my own.
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A Ashcraft: When I have time, there are some games that I that I get up in the morning to play like like you know that marvel puzzle quest which i’ve talked about before.
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A Ashcraft: Like that’s.
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A Ashcraft: I reach for my phone I get up and I go to the kitchen and get my phone, so I don’t leave it plugged in there, my bed, which is, I think a health reason.
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A Ashcraft: But then I go back to bed, and I play I play that game in bed, there are games that I play with my friends, because my friend, I like to play games with my friends.
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Shlomo Sher: Why why the notice, for you know you haven’t really give me a reason for any of these right, so why do you like to play games or bad well you like to play gives you the reasons might be different, so what are some.
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A Ashcraft: yeah yeah, so I think there are lots of different reasons and.
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A Ashcraft: We talk about.
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A Ashcraft: When we think about this from a game design point of view, we think about the kinds of fun we thought you know when people say well it’s fun I like I play games because it’s fun.
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A Ashcraft: Right all right, what does that mean and turns out fun can mean different things to different people at different times in their lives right.
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A Ashcraft: fun could be going out and playing baseball fun could be staying home and putting together a puzzle all of these things are fun, but they’re not clearly not the same kinds of fun.
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Shlomo Sher: and clearly what’s fun for one person may not be fun for somebody else.
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A Ashcraft: Exactly exactly and different kinds of games give you different kinds of fun and so mark Lovelock fellow game designer put together.
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A Ashcraft: Probably 10 years ago now, or longer eight kinds of fun and it’s basically and he says, from the get go, he says, these are not necessarily.
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A Ashcraft: You know your mileage may vary, like the kinds of fun that you find fun, or maybe your your list may be different from my list but here’s my list and his list is pretty interesting and we can talk about it because I noticed that.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah I thought I thought it was really cool yeah well why don’t we.
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Shlomo Sher: Go ahead introduce it.
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A Ashcraft: Okay yeah yeah so his his list is sensation that is a game is fun, because it is beautiful and it sounds great or you know there’s sensation or sensation pleasure right.
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A Ashcraft: So sensation is one of them fellowship it’s fun because i’m This is something I can do with my friends, I can do with other people so there’s fun and fellowship there’s fantasy there’s the the fun of going and being in a make believe world.
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A Ashcraft: there’s the fun of discovery like learning new things are finding out what’s behind that waterfall or you know, whatever you know finding out with this new mechanic does or what what the game is going to offer you next.
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A Ashcraft: Is as.
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Shlomo Sher: As you’re saying this i’m thinking about i’m attaching a game in my mind.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah know that i’ve experienced to each one of these, and I would think many of our listeners would too right because so many of us are do every one of these at some point.
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Shlomo Sher: But sorry sorry.
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Shlomo Sher: keep going.
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A Ashcraft: No, no, no that’s right and each each of the Games will have it won’t necessarily cater to all of these kinds of fun, but it will probably sort of focus on one or two of them.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, I didn’t have some others and lesser amounts.
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A Ashcraft: narrative it’s fun because there’s a great story, and I want to know what’s coming next.
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A Ashcraft: it’s expression there’s it’s fun because I get to express myself somehow in this game, whether it’s you know pictionary where I literally expressing myself.
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A Ashcraft: Or whether it’s you know i’m just creating an Avatar from.
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A Ashcraft: An emo that’s an expression kind of fun.
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Shlomo Sher: And frosting.
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A Ashcraft: yeah animal crossing is full of expression challenge it’s fun because it’s hard.
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A Ashcraft: And finally, the last one is sort of strange it’s submission and the idea is that it’s it’s the mindless pastime it’s that it’s that fun that you have for having the.
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A Ashcraft: glass of wine, at the end of a long day it’s that it’s that game that you that you play when you’re unwinding right before bed.
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A Ashcraft: it’s the game that you play when you’re in line at the Bank and you don’t you can’t really put a lot of attention in it and you don’t really want to think about it, but you do want to kill some time.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, and it just makes life, a little bit nicer.
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A Ashcraft: yeah and it just makes nice little yeah I just get it just.
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A Ashcraft: fill some time right.
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A Ashcraft: And then i’ve added because i’ve been thinking about and teaching this stuff for for a while now i’ve added one more and that’s taboo there’s a fun there’s a fun and kicking down sandcastles.
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A Ashcraft: Though.
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Shlomo Sher: there’s a say that.
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Shlomo Sher: I am.
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Shlomo Sher: I did tell you right i’m an avid sand Castle builder right.
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A Ashcraft: Oh yes.
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Shlomo Sher: I did you choose your example intentionally.
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A Ashcraft: I did.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah and I don’t know you might you might have might have enjoyed you, you might enjoy kicking down your sand castles after you build them.
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A Ashcraft: Some people do.
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Shlomo Sher: Some people do yes.
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Shlomo Sher: And, and I, and even though i’m.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I really you know there’s kids that always come by and pretend to kick down the sand Castle, and after been working on for hours.
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Shlomo Sher: But I get it.
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A Ashcraft: I get it.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know it’s it’s destroying is pretty fun.
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A Ashcraft: yeah absolutely there’s a there’s a great game.
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A Ashcraft: burnout there’s a burnout series of games it’s a racing game.
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A Ashcraft: And one of the module one of the one of the modes of the game is you race your car into a busy intersection and crash, and then it, and it goes into slow mo as things crash into one another and it starts tabulating.
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A Ashcraft: The value damage and in terms of monetary value and your score is based on how much damage, you can do super fun.
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Shlomo Sher: cool great I mean, mind you, I mean with with the taboo fun, I mean you know there’s lots of things, you know that you know.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, playing a game where you’re killing people and enjoying the killing part of it right or emergent people and then join that part of it.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right right.
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Shlomo Sher: Things that you might never do in real life, but might be really fun to kind of you know, try try out just for the hell of it, and again.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right and CARDS against humanity is basically built an entire brand on this.
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A Ashcraft: On this kind of fun right.
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A Ashcraft: we’re within those within the magic circle of the game, you can do things that you’re not supposed to do in real life.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right safe things that you would not do it in real life definitely okay so Andy so of these and again, you know, I have a feeling if we talk about how games specifically relate to each one of these, we could be here for a very long time.
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Shlomo Sher: Oh yes, so just a couple so which one’s of these do you find yourself personally attracted to the most.
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A Ashcraft: Right, so I do enjoy I enjoy exploration.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, I enjoy.
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A Ashcraft: I enjoy socializing so I play a lot of board games.
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A Ashcraft: You know and role playing games I enjoy as a as a game master of a role playing game that’s all about expression, so I enjoyed that very much.
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A Ashcraft: I you know i’m it’s not so much the sensory things are not as important to me, I know that’s true that’s not true for other people, some people really love.
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A Ashcraft: Like video games and how they look and how beautiful some some things are that’s not such a problem that’s not such a big deal for me.
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Shlomo Sher: It is, for me, I you know i’ve.
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Shlomo Sher: playing the legendary mass effect, right now, and you know, going back to lower resolutions even that’s for fits for master and i’m looking at.
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Shlomo Sher: shepherds eyes and he’s got crazy eyes, because I mean my God the game was you know 13 years ago, or something and we’ve gotten so much better, and you know, for me, like you know the beauty of the world really is, you know something I really, really enjoy.
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A Ashcraft: yeah yeah and and it’s a major part of a lot of games.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know and a lot, you know I I enjoy.
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Shlomo Sher: Sometimes I really just do enjoy that the challenge.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and.
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Shlomo Sher: For me, also fellowship is a really big deal right for me there’s nothing like split screen with you know with friends together if you’re playing a new game.
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yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: And to me it’s much better than playing you know split screen to me i’d rather do that then have somebody else you know.
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Shlomo Sher: play multiplayer with somebody else you know for further away, but that’s my favorite I think of everything right playing with somebody.
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A Ashcraft: playing with somebody is is is huge.
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Shlomo Sher: Right okay so.
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Shlomo Sher: um can there be so all these are fun.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: Which people play games for for fun.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: right for fun right at least usually and we kind of kind of when we kind of want to dig into that right um, are there any bad reasons for playing a game.
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Shlomo Sher: Because because notice right, I mean fun seems obvious.
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fun is good.
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Shlomo Sher: but can you can you have a bad reason for playing a game.
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A Ashcraft: I suppose if playing the game if you’re using it to distract yourself from other things that you need to do that could be a bad reason to play it if you’re if you’re using it to escape.
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A Ashcraft: Your duties, I guess.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, you got things that you’ve got responsibilities, the game might be fun, but that fun is over, written by the responsibilities that you’re not you know that you’re not taking care of.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, I mean that could think of even if you don’t, even if we don’t think about the responsibilities, maybe you’re not taking care of yourself.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re having fun, but your fun is not really.
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Shlomo Sher: good for you.
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A Ashcraft: Right right right your responsibility to yourself, you know you’re using it to avoid or shirk responsibility, I think that would be a bad reason to play games.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah it’s interesting What about if.
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Shlomo Sher: What if you’re not you know we could get to the point where you actually harming yourself.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and right, but what if you’re not even harming yourself you’re just kind of you’re not going places in life because you’re having fun playing games, is that a bad reason to play.
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A Ashcraft: Well, I don’t know because I don’t know that I don’t know that you’re not always progressing forward.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: Like even.
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A Ashcraft: Even when you’re doing something that you don’t think or other people don’t think is progressing you forward you’re progressing forward somehow you might only be progressing forward in that game.
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Shlomo Sher: right but that’s.
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A Ashcraft: Maybe that’s okay.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe that’s kind of meaningless progression.
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A Ashcraft: I mean right but compared to what compared to like in improving my painting skills.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s a really good question right.
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A Ashcraft: i’m committed to.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I actually think about this a lot, because you know it’s nighttime my you know I finally get time for myself, you know my my son my son is in bed my wife goes to sleep early and it’s 10 o’clock and I finally have you know my time.
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Shlomo Sher: But now I gotta decide Okay, am I gonna play my guitar or am I going to play a you know this game, or we might go and play that game or am I going to watch TV.
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Shlomo Sher: in some way.
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Shlomo Sher: And part of me, especially when it comes to the guitar or to play music, in general, really kind of ways, these things right of you know, is there is there, something that I get from learning how the skill of playing guitar versus let’s say learning the skill of.
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Shlomo Sher: You know handling the ball and rocket league.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right or or of you know shooting you know shooting things and doom.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s say.
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Shlomo Sher: right and it might be that all of them are fun, but it might be that you know here’s a simple calculation right.
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Shlomo Sher: The skill that I get from playing a particular game may not transfer to anything else in my life, the skill I get from playing guitar is sublime I mean you know art adds so much to to my life and will.
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Shlomo Sher: And it builds on itself and isn’t.
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A Ashcraft: isn’t ball handling of an art.
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Shlomo Sher: And well it’s gonna be an art in in rocket league.
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A Ashcraft: If I was if it was soccer you would consider it an art.
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Shlomo Sher: If it was.
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A Ashcraft: It was live soccer but because it’s a video game is less valuable I challenge that.
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Shlomo Sher: Well it’s interesting right, I think, in some places, it is right, so part of it, I think, is at least part of the concern for me is that because it’s a video game so let’s say i’m playing video chess.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay i’m learning i’m learning kind of skills that you know I know i’ll be able to use a throughout any chess game on any medium, you know, no matter how long, but you know if i’m learning a particular kind of so right notice, but if I get the general ability to.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, to pay play a shooter well right that’s a skill that’s going to transfer over a lot of games.
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A Ashcraft: Sure, I mean that the hand eye coordination alone is something that will transfer over even outside of.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right and that’s that’s nice to a degree, though, again I, personally, I prefer it directly may be in the.
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A Ashcraft: You know sure you can spend the world.
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A Ashcraft: Doing close up magic, for example, and get the same sort of hand eye coordination skills.
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Shlomo Sher: Or you know or or you know playing tennis or ping pong and you know and i’ll get exercise at the same time, so notice right a part of it is.
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Shlomo Sher: A part of it as the the general utility of the fun right so right whatever it is i’m supposed to whatever it is i’m supposed to get out of the fun, I mean fun is good, but maybe some kinds of fun are better than other kinds of fun and.
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Shlomo Sher: You know this is something that I mean this is a an old old idea right, the idea that not all fun is is the same.
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A Ashcraft: right there past times that are more valuable past times than other past times right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, so you know we’ve talked about utilitarianism before in the show right and the idea that and utilitarianism is all about pleasure right and utilitarianism says fun is awesome whatever floats your boat go do that shit.
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Shlomo Sher: Right now, I mean that’s.
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Shlomo Sher: You know that’s what’s good for you and it doesn’t judge.
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A Ashcraft: Right now, going back to those I did there was one there was one point I want to go go back to before we get too far away from your that our you have in the evening.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, and I just want to say.
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A Ashcraft: Sometimes self care.
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A Ashcraft: You know if it’s if it’s curling up and watching stupid TV, but if that is how you need to help yourself, is that if that’s the kind of rest that you need if that’s the kind of self care that you need then by all means that should be the most valuable part of it right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right notice right, even if it’s not fun right.
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A Ashcraft: Even if it’s not fun if it’s if it’s just if it’s just what you want to do.
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A Ashcraft: Fiona apple has a line in one of her songs about like.
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A Ashcraft: Sometimes it’s good to just sit out on the grass and do nothing.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure that’s definitely not the way i’ve lived my life.
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Shlomo Sher: But I get that right.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s side of it right, I have a very hard time doing nothing.
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Shlomo Sher: But yeah you know I could I could be spending my time meditating.
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A Ashcraft: races, this is by the way, that the big difference between you and I, as I have.
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A Ashcraft: 00 trouble at all spending a lot of time doing nothing.
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Shlomo Sher: to gradually I would.
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A Ashcraft: I was way too much yes right.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah you know for me it’s you know I even when I watch TV I played my guitar it’s an opportunity to do both of those things, or you know where I stretch, and this is, this is a, this is a again if i’m thinking about am I going to play this game.
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Shlomo Sher: Where I could you know, and I would I used to try to play I would play assassin’s creed, while at the same time trying to like stretch.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so so i’m playing in the floor and i’m stretching and there’s breaks and and.
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Shlomo Sher: And let’s say I might be lifting weights, you know, whenever the screen is loading up or I might be doing setups because I want to maximize my time.
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Shlomo Sher: right if I wasn’t playing the game I would be watching a TV show.
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Shlomo Sher: But having the Cyprus subtitles on because, at the same time i’d be practicing my guitar.
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A Ashcraft: I sometimes have that inclination.
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A Ashcraft: I go lay down until it goes away okay.
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Shlomo Sher: But notice notice the idea, right now, this.
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Shlomo Sher: This idea of utilitarianism doesn’t care where your pleasure comes from, but it does care about maximizing pleasure, so you might say, some fun counts more than other fun long term.
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Shlomo Sher: Right how how useful this for long term, but the main guy that criticize utilitarianism from the inside this guy john Stuart Mill.
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Shlomo Sher: Essentially you know a lot of people were saying look utilitarianism cares about pleasure, but it’s kind of a philosophy for pigs.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you can live your life as a pig and just have these very superficial life for the superficial pleasures and Jamil eventually came to kind of agree with that, as a utilitarian.
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Shlomo Sher: He said look as a matter of fact, most people really do think that there’s different levels of pleasures.
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Shlomo Sher: right that some pleasures just matter more than others to us that we just want those pleasures more that you know some fun is just better than other fun and what he was talking about was essentially the idea that.
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Shlomo Sher: Some pleasures that the end he said that the pleasures that we usually considered a higher pleasures.
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Shlomo Sher: So these are pleasures that kind of demand more of us right that they manage us to think, or they demand us to feel to engage right.
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Shlomo Sher: they’re not really that passive right.
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A Ashcraft: they’re not submission that’s that’s the submission.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: they’re not submission right you think of let’s say that the challenge.
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Shlomo Sher: You know the challenge kind of pleasure could be one kind right it’s engaging you when you’re when you’re passing challenges right you’re.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re trying to be the best of yourself in some sort of sense right.
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Shlomo Sher: And he said, this is just kind of a matter of human psychology that we care more about these kinds of pleasure, because we want to live a life that we can be proud of.
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Shlomo Sher: And that it’s easier to live a life of where we are proud of the kind of pleasures that we have if we have certain kinds of pleasure so.
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A Ashcraft: sure.
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Shlomo Sher: All you’re doing is playing you know, a really, really simple game and I can’t think my first thought is candy crush, but I think candy crush is a brilliant game and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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A Ashcraft: right but it, but it definitely, is it really leads hard on that submission kind of fun.
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A Ashcraft: Or you don’t have to think you don’t have to think about it very much things just wash over you you doing you’re doing your thing.
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Shlomo Sher: Until you get to a higher levels.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah that it can become really challenging.
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A Ashcraft: yeah once in a while it’ll get very challenging but you know that you can sort of like wait until the next, the next time you this that level loads up and and the Board will be different you’ll have a different opportunities.
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Shlomo Sher: To an extent.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean I, I think, but.
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Shlomo Sher: But okay so okay so let’s get back to this idea right of some kind of fun and it’s interesting if we had to rank the eight things I don’t know if we can, if we can do them.
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A Ashcraft: we’d probably and we’d probably have a different set, I think it would be very personal.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe great cuz you know it’s you think about right this idea of enjoying the graphics right like I might you know, I was a big fan of mass effect andromeda when I feel like almost nobody was because that game was buggy.
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A Ashcraft: and
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Shlomo Sher: The bugs were really big deal and they were super annoying but I thought the world was so beautiful and and I dug into the beauty and I, you know I explored beautiful places in that world I you know I I thought about the kind of design choices that we’re doing in terms of the aesthetics.
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Shlomo Sher: You know the same or the other one was sky room, I remember just how incredibly and it.
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Shlomo Sher: was just riding a horse through through Skype room.
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A Ashcraft: yeah just just running around in those worlds is is is a pleasure in and of itself right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and and and you can do it in a super superficial way right, and you can do it in a way, where you are.
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Shlomo Sher: Almost experiencing a sublime immersion in a different world right where you’re you’re playing let’s say you’re not even playing the fantasy you’re you know you’re transported in some way right it’s it.
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Shlomo Sher: says, I want to say it’s a blind kind of feeling you’re you’re you’re so engaged with the piece of art right yeah it’s it’s managed to really grab your soul and you can have somebody else that’s just like yeah the graph is a pretty.
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A Ashcraft: Right right exactly right that’s why I feel it so very personal.
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A Ashcraft: But I think that I think that sort of what you’re getting at is that there might be activities kinds of fun that that that are based on activities that become foundational for more more pleasurable activities later that you can’t get if you don’t do the work right like playing guitar.
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A Ashcraft: But I wish I wish that I had spent more time playing guitar.
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A Ashcraft: When I was playing guitar because i’d be better at it now than I am, and I get more pleasure out of doing it now, even though I was getting some amount of pleasure doing it then.
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Shlomo Sher: right and it builds right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, the fact that it exponentially builds itself something really kind of.
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A Ashcraft: Interesting right.
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Shlomo Sher: But it’s also kind of.
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Shlomo Sher: You know very subjective and personal until what can give you, you know these kind of sublime experiences.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and you can get sublime experiences from game, and you can probably get them from any of the eighth maybe not submission but.
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A Ashcraft: I know, so I think totally.
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Shlomo Sher: From submission to.
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A Ashcraft: Oh yeah.
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Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: How do you think you’d get some blind kind of a sublime kind of.
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A Ashcraft: I think you.
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A Ashcraft: Can you can get into that that that flow state where everything is is you know is is that much you know much more focused and you’re just sort of in that zone, I think that’s a kind of a sublime state.
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Shlomo Sher: I see so.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay interesting where you can play a game where i’m thinking of the Taoists idea of the water.
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Shlomo Sher: You know my be like water right where you’re just kind of your kind of going with the flow and you’re not even thinking about it and a game is just directing you and you are in it and it, you know.
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A Ashcraft: And, and the experience the experience has been has been designed to do that and experiences designed to give you the most fun of that kind of state that you’re going to get that can be sublime by itself.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I there’s this a vr vr APP called trip with two p’s that’s a meditation APP but it’s a meditation APP that has a game built inside.
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A Ashcraft: Oh yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: That is super interesting, so it has a focused meditation and the focus meditation is a really, really, really simple game.
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Shlomo Sher: Where you’re just I think you’re just moving your and you’re moving it, I think, by your eyes or something but you’re you’re moving just I think you’re getting gold coins within a very, very simple kind of obstacle course.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s not meant to be hard it’s not meant to be challenging it’s.
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Shlomo Sher: meant to get your focus and to put you into a flow state.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s right and it’s super cool.
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A Ashcraft: yeah and that’s exactly that kind of game right.
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A Ashcraft: that’s a game that you submit to.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, i’m giving you a delta you convinced me.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, uh so okay so okay now let’s move for other kinds of fun, so I think of grief eat.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so right in briefing and we’re going to record our episode and trolling soon right, but right in briefing the whole fun is ruining it for other people.
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A Ashcraft: Right right right which is kind of the taboo kind of gameplay right.
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A Ashcraft: Right like but it’s also arguably if you’re grieving somebody you’re not playing the game.
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A Ashcraft: Or maybe like we’ve also talked about games where we’re we’re playing against other players as possible, so we do any sort of any sort of mo.
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A Ashcraft: any sort of like multiplayer shooter game where you can shoot the other players are you grieving them when you shoot them, are you because that’s part of the game that’s not right briefing right.
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A Ashcraft: No you’re talking about doing things that are.
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A Ashcraft: Like kind of against the spirit of the game right.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah I mean you’re you’re joining the game is ruining other people’s games.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean that’s within the within the rules or.
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A Ashcraft: Within the.
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A Ashcraft: Within my spirit.
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Shlomo Sher: I think it could be definitely not within the spirit.
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Shlomo Sher: Like potentially within the rules.
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A Ashcraft: As we talk about maybe there’s some of those examples with.
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A Ashcraft: With Eve online okay right where.
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A Ashcraft: You know, within the rules within the spirit of that world.
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A Ashcraft: Within that competitive.
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A Ashcraft: sort of what’s the what’s the French word for for for the kind of economies.
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Shlomo Sher: laisser faire.
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A Ashcraft: laissez faire kind of economy of that game.
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A Ashcraft: You can do all kinds of things to make the game less fun for other players.
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A Ashcraft: And right it’ll be within the spirit of that game.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, I mean you’re just crushing.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean really you know, and you could do that and.
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Everything.
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Shlomo Sher: um.
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A Ashcraft: it’s hard yeah yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re right I wouldn’t I wouldn’t say.
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Shlomo Sher: I feel like Griffin has a sort of built in meanness to it.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah like part of the joy is that you’re ruining their game, but.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re not ruining their game by.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I good question I don’t exactly know anymore I gotta tell you I think we, you know.
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A Ashcraft: there’s there’s I think there’s I think there’s a Gray scale of like.
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A Ashcraft: Of like you know some games allow more of that than other games and certainly within the spirit of the game or within the initial concept of the game did people the designers think about that that’s what was going to be fun.
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Shlomo Sher: Right in.
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A Ashcraft: Players find that as a fun thing to do, after the game was made like are they are they hacking the game in some way even legally illegal hack of a game.
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A Ashcraft: To make it less fun for other players players, and that is the fun and I get that I get that’s the point of the briefing is that the fun is i’m causing somebody else’s suffering.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right right, so we call it sadistic fun.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure right okay right so.
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A Ashcraft: And and and I think that you get more fun from.
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A Ashcraft: From hearing and seeing the other people’s grief too right I think that’s becomes part of that fun is like you can’t just do it in a vacuum, you have to like you have to the payoff is you know use their tears.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, or at least I mean, and you know potentially their tears in your imagination, but there’s nothing like real tears.
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Shlomo Sher: Though it’s interesting right so again, I wonder if we could put a moral spin on it Where is there anything is that a bad reason for playing a game, and you know, maybe you can say you know you’ve got responsibilities towards other players.
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Shlomo Sher: That maybe you’re violating here and.
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A Ashcraft: Your players so certainly within the larger scope you’re fun my fun should not be more valuable than your fun.
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A Ashcraft: right if i’m causing you and fun and gaining fun that.
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A Ashcraft: That should be at least a zero out.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe but but knows what we’re doing right where we’re saying okay it’s not going to be as simple as you know, you should just play to have fun right we’re already pointing restrictions.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Well caveats on that right.
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A Ashcraft: Right right but i’m also saying like within the within one philosophy my like somebody else’s unfun counteracts my fun and so.
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A Ashcraft: Right and there’s no I or even worse if i’m making two people have no fun or giving them unfun then then then i’m ultimately doing a negative to the world.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right and that would be the utilitarian kind of trade of looking at it, though it might also depend on the situation right if the fact that you’re just really badass and.
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Shlomo Sher: they’re just not that good and the fact that you’re really good and you’re playing the game is it’s fun for you interferes with.
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Shlomo Sher: Their ability to compete with you and some situations, you know there’s nothing wrong with you, enjoying your you know your excellence.
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A Ashcraft: Sure sure, but that’s not increasing, I mean we.
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Shlomo Sher: Like everything that’s been creeping right so so, in other words.
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Shlomo Sher: there’s probably kind of more to it right, then just your phone versus other people’s funds.
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A Ashcraft: Right right it’s like intent intent seems to be an important part of this.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right why your how you’re having fun why you’re having fun right if your motive is a pure in the right kind of motive and maybe we can again 10 can connect this so notice the other one.
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Shlomo Sher: we’ve talked about three things so far right we’ve talked about the idea that you know, maybe some fun is more important than other kinds of fun.
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Shlomo Sher: right because it, it might.
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Shlomo Sher: lead to a kind of more a life, you could be more proud of, and maybe.
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Shlomo Sher: This is the kind of thing that would fit into that.
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A Ashcraft: Right i’d be some foundation for building.
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A Ashcraft: Your greater fun later.
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Shlomo Sher: uh right.
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Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, that would be the second one actually that one.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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Shlomo Sher: And the second one is this kind of like a because we might talk about dignity as something really different than greater fun right, so the other one is just kind of fun, that is all long term maximizing more fun.
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Shlomo Sher: Right whatever so that’s kind of our second one, and then our third one was a fun that maybe undermines your responsibilities right to yourself, or to other people and.
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Shlomo Sher: Right OK, so now let me kind of ask the question in a different way, so there’s some games that honestly just tossed seem fun to me at all.
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Shlomo Sher: And I am thinking of games like like the game paper plays that we’ve talked about before.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so paper, please we’ve talked about before it seems to take place in like an Eastern European country, maybe early 80s.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s an you know intentionally did graphic kind of thing and you’re essentially you’re the entry person at the border, that decide who gets to come into a country or not.
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Shlomo Sher: And you have a lot of kind of tough decisions and the game is stressful it’s not pretty it faces you with hard moral issues and it just doesn’t seem very fun.
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A Ashcraft: So all right well let’s talk about kinds of fun, that it is.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, it is challenging and that is a kind of fun.
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A Ashcraft: You know you’re talking about it being a stressful that’s that that means This challenge is challenging you in some level, and so that is a kind of fun by itself.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I you know to me a game like that is too challenging you know it’s.
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A Ashcraft: Too challenging to.
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A Ashcraft: sure.
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Shlomo Sher: To challenging right.
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A Ashcraft: it’s right.
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A Ashcraft: So that just that just means that your.
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A Ashcraft: Your threshold for challenging fun is lower than that game is and.
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Shlomo Sher: And yet I played it right, you know i’m thinking of another game of.
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Shlomo Sher: Talk I think I think intellectual challenge is also something that people.
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A Ashcraft: don’t think about too much or even emotional challenge some games can can provide intellectual and emotional challenges, even while the the you know getting through the game itself is not particularly hard to do.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah that’s good right and sometimes we play games for things like that, where we enjoy on some level.
370
00:36:15.600 –> 00:36:19.170
Shlomo Sher: Right, the the emotional hardship.
371
00:36:19.500 –> 00:36:27.660
Shlomo Sher: That come to me to it or the, especially the the intellectual stuff i’m thinking of so.
372
00:36:29.310 –> 00:36:40.680
A Ashcraft: sometimes easy to think about movies, as a model for this like there’s some movies, that are fun to watch, you know big action movies, are fun to watch, but we also enjoy watching.
373
00:36:41.760 –> 00:36:49.080
A Ashcraft: movies, that are hard to watch, you know we we some of us enjoy watching you know.
374
00:36:50.700 –> 00:36:52.770
A Ashcraft: documentaries about hard subjects.
375
00:36:54.120 –> 00:37:01.800
Shlomo Sher: yeah right and notice is that because we find those fun, I was wondering if if.
376
00:37:03.300 –> 00:37:03.720
Shlomo Sher: yeah.
377
00:37:04.200 –> 00:37:06.750
A Ashcraft: I mean it’s a different kind of fun though right, you have to think about.
378
00:37:08.910 –> 00:37:13.740
A Ashcraft: You have to think like you can substitute enjoyment for fun in certain ways right.
379
00:37:15.360 –> 00:37:17.970
A Ashcraft: Well it’s interesting I get some enjoyment out of it is it.
380
00:37:18.960 –> 00:37:30.540
Shlomo Sher: There, there are some games like you know when I think about when I think about this war of mine right a super depressing survival game right about.
381
00:37:31.500 –> 00:37:42.960
Shlomo Sher: Right, about being stuck in a war zone right right your players can you could get depressed I could commit suicide, you know.
382
00:37:43.950 –> 00:38:00.570
Shlomo Sher: I I I have found nothing fun about that game, but I played it for what I feel like our different reasons, and again i’d say I mean look honestly I mean i’ve also played games like papers, please, and this for of mine for work.
383
00:38:01.140 –> 00:38:16.410
Shlomo Sher: And I because I teach a class on ethics of video games and they’re related right, so I feel a responsibility to kind of play games like that so notice right sometimes up play games, because I feel like ever responsibility of some kind.
384
00:38:16.800 –> 00:38:21.300
Shlomo Sher: And maybe that’s true for me as well, you know as somebody who’s a professional game designer.
385
00:38:21.690 –> 00:38:23.370
A Ashcraft: there’s tons of games that I play.
386
00:38:23.700 –> 00:38:26.160
A Ashcraft: Right my grit my teeth through them.
387
00:38:26.430 –> 00:38:29.910
A Ashcraft: right because they’re not fun when I feel like I need to know them.
388
00:38:30.480 –> 00:38:33.870
Shlomo Sher: right but notice now think of those documentary films.
389
00:38:34.050 –> 00:38:43.140
Shlomo Sher: Right there’s plenty of documentary films that i’ve watched where i’m like you know i’m here to get the knowledge, but this is but i’m not enjoying it.
390
00:38:43.500 –> 00:38:55.200
Shlomo Sher: Right, you know, but I feel like let’s say I would be a better person, if I had the knowledge right like I you know I feel like I you know I would be better informed.
391
00:38:56.250 –> 00:39:05.640
Shlomo Sher: Men did better inform kind of matters, maybe it’s meeting my responsibilities, may be the data form will will allow me to make better life decisions.
392
00:39:06.000 –> 00:39:22.020
A Ashcraft: Right right or at least be able to have conversations that are deeper so becomes like that foundational that foundational fun right i’m building some i’m building something that I will use later to get.
393
00:39:23.130 –> 00:39:25.080
A Ashcraft: Better better value of later.
394
00:39:27.330 –> 00:39:32.910
Shlomo Sher: Though i’m not sure I to meet the word fun is beginning to get really stressed at this point.
395
00:39:33.180 –> 00:39:35.670
A Ashcraft: Sure well it’s completely meaningless, which is why.
396
00:39:35.730 –> 00:39:37.110
A Ashcraft: which was mark lungs point.
397
00:39:37.290 –> 00:39:47.310
A Ashcraft: Is is that we can’t really talk about fun, because no because it’s it becomes it becomes meaningless, you have to talk about these individual things as individual elements.
398
00:39:47.970 –> 00:40:00.210
Shlomo Sher: Right right okay all right, you know I think right think of interesting as fun right so stick about some art is just the what’s cool about the artists just that it’s interesting it’s not.
399
00:40:00.210 –> 00:40:00.810
A Ashcraft: Right, you know.
400
00:40:00.900 –> 00:40:04.050
Shlomo Sher: Beautiful it’s not fun to to look at it’s just gonna huh.
401
00:40:04.830 –> 00:40:06.000
A Ashcraft: wrestling right.
402
00:40:06.360 –> 00:40:13.290
Shlomo Sher: um and let’s say you want to become a more interesting person right and interesting people have.
403
00:40:13.830 –> 00:40:32.040
Shlomo Sher: You know, a better conversation was early right, and you can do something as a kind of a means to an end now notice how often does that happen in a video game right where you write it seems like video games you rarely kind of get that, and this is again just because.
404
00:40:33.150 –> 00:40:33.990
Shlomo Sher: I feel.
405
00:40:35.040 –> 00:40:40.050
Shlomo Sher: The art form of video games is still relatively early compared to other forms of media.
406
00:40:40.710 –> 00:40:43.500
A Ashcraft: I suppose I mean there’s plenty of conversations.
407
00:40:43.650 –> 00:40:49.740
A Ashcraft: happening, even as we speak, between people who love a video game about the video game.
408
00:40:50.370 –> 00:40:50.880
Shlomo Sher: Right.
409
00:40:51.000 –> 00:40:54.060
Shlomo Sher: And all of them are really high level conversations.
410
00:40:54.120 –> 00:40:56.400
Shlomo Sher: that’s right and some of them are not right, I mean.
411
00:40:56.640 –> 00:40:59.190
Shlomo Sher: Right, but most of them are kind of strategic.
412
00:40:59.490 –> 00:41:06.990
A Ashcraft: Right, but what you’re talking about is is video games that allow us to discuss other things outside of the video game.
413
00:41:07.590 –> 00:41:16.350
A Ashcraft: Like that inform other conversations that inform conversations about perhaps more real topics than the video game itself.
414
00:41:16.800 –> 00:41:21.720
Shlomo Sher: Right right they’ll notice, I mean you might also say what’s the point of that what does that.
415
00:41:22.470 –> 00:41:22.980
A Ashcraft: mean right.
416
00:41:23.040 –> 00:41:35.700
Shlomo Sher: Right right, I mean if you say to me what’s the point of fun i’m gonna say if you don’t get fun I don’t know what to tell you right, I mean you know fun as pleasurable pleasure is good if you don’t get kind of that as at least.
417
00:41:36.480 –> 00:41:47.550
Shlomo Sher: A you know, a basic that you can again we talked about how you know some pleasure might be better than others and pleasure isn’t always necessarily it’s not like it’s good can’t be overwritten sometimes but.
418
00:41:47.880 –> 00:41:52.770
Shlomo Sher: You get the idea that pleasure that pleasure happiness those things are good right.
419
00:41:52.830 –> 00:42:02.850
Shlomo Sher: Right, but when I when we talk about you know what’s the point of being able to let’s say make yourself a better conversationalist of more sophisticated topics.
420
00:42:02.970 –> 00:42:06.300
A Ashcraft: Right it’s almost like asking what is the point of laughing.
421
00:42:07.740 –> 00:42:08.250
Shlomo Sher: i’m.
422
00:42:10.170 –> 00:42:11.190
Shlomo Sher: sure.
423
00:42:11.970 –> 00:42:15.030
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean right, I mean laughing is enjoyable right.
424
00:42:15.120 –> 00:42:17.790
Shlomo Sher: And right but you’re like you know.
425
00:42:17.820 –> 00:42:19.230
A Ashcraft: I love what’s the point.
426
00:42:19.470 –> 00:42:20.520
Shlomo Sher: what’s what’s the point of it.
427
00:42:21.660 –> 00:42:22.050
Shlomo Sher: well.
428
00:42:23.250 –> 00:42:25.830
Shlomo Sher: You know I like what’s the point kind of questions.
429
00:42:26.280 –> 00:42:26.550
Right.
430
00:42:28.230 –> 00:42:38.040
Shlomo Sher: Well, because ultimately, so you know this is you when it comes to ethics right ultimately we all we always kind of get to the but what’s the point of that.
431
00:42:38.850 –> 00:42:40.290
Shlomo Sher: But what’s so you know.
432
00:42:42.660 –> 00:42:46.290
Shlomo Sher: You know there’s so many things that you can do with your life.
433
00:42:46.680 –> 00:42:47.340
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
434
00:42:47.580 –> 00:42:50.400
Shlomo Sher: But what’s the point of you doing them with your life.
435
00:42:50.790 –> 00:42:52.710
Shlomo Sher: Right, so you know.
436
00:42:53.280 –> 00:42:55.410
A Ashcraft: You know there’s there’s a point to play.
437
00:42:56.340 –> 00:43:00.480
A Ashcraft: And there’s a there’s a psychological there’s a well known point to play.
438
00:43:01.020 –> 00:43:02.250
Shlomo Sher: So what is the point to play.
439
00:43:02.640 –> 00:43:10.020
A Ashcraft: Point the point of playing the way the reason that our brains like playing is because it’s frequently how we teach ourselves about things.
440
00:43:10.890 –> 00:43:15.630
Shlomo Sher: Oh so play is good because it instrumentalists teaches the skills.
441
00:43:15.990 –> 00:43:17.190
Shlomo Sher: Yes, and.
442
00:43:17.490 –> 00:43:18.870
A Ashcraft: or about the world or.
443
00:43:19.230 –> 00:43:20.880
Shlomo Sher: what’s the point of having those skills.
444
00:43:21.600 –> 00:43:33.180
A Ashcraft: Well, the get to to better survive the world, I mean animals play animals down to down to insects they’ve they’ve seen they’ve seen in behavior that can only be described as play behavior.
445
00:43:33.630 –> 00:43:34.740
Shlomo Sher: insects wow that’s cool.
446
00:43:35.070 –> 00:43:41.850
Shlomo Sher: yeah that was it so so Okay, so you learn skills so his life, the point of life is then survival.
447
00:43:43.260 –> 00:43:43.620
A Ashcraft: well.
448
00:43:43.740 –> 00:43:44.970
A Ashcraft: So to a.
449
00:43:45.510 –> 00:43:47.460
A Ashcraft: Certainly, to the selfish gene right.
450
00:43:47.970 –> 00:43:50.970
Shlomo Sher: right but i’m not the selfish gene, you know.
451
00:43:52.080 –> 00:43:52.560
A Ashcraft: We know.
452
00:43:54.060 –> 00:44:02.940
Shlomo Sher: there’s genes inside of me but i’m i’m different than my jeans I would say right but notice right when we get back to video games right.
453
00:44:02.970 –> 00:44:05.880
Shlomo Sher: If you want to say, well, my my point, but I think you missed my point.
454
00:44:06.180 –> 00:44:07.050
A Ashcraft: My point is that.
455
00:44:07.110 –> 00:44:08.910
A Ashcraft: That that.
456
00:44:09.990 –> 00:44:23.310
A Ashcraft: The the mechanical part of us the part that does care about jeans you don’t care about it you’re more than the mechanical part of you, but the mechanical part of you makes it fun for the non mechanical part of you.
457
00:44:23.880 –> 00:44:26.760
Shlomo Sher: yeah right so right we have certain mechanisms.
458
00:44:26.820 –> 00:44:27.660
Shlomo Sher: Right, where.
459
00:44:28.650 –> 00:44:29.490
Shlomo Sher: You know, certain.
460
00:44:30.690 –> 00:44:40.620
Shlomo Sher: evolutionary mechanisms that have helped duplicate replicate jeans right or create multiple copies of Jesus along the way, and.
461
00:44:41.640 –> 00:44:44.100
Shlomo Sher: Clean a positive reinforcement for behavior.
462
00:44:44.640 –> 00:44:46.290
A Ashcraft: Right and and we call that fun.
463
00:44:47.010 –> 00:44:50.610
Shlomo Sher: And usually or at least fun is at least one of those I don’t know if I would say.
464
00:44:50.610 –> 00:44:52.020
Shlomo Sher: That everything like that is.
465
00:44:52.080 –> 00:44:54.990
A Ashcraft: Where I should say we call that behavior play.
466
00:44:55.380 –> 00:45:03.300
A Ashcraft: And we presumed that play is and the end the you know whatever’s going on in our brain chemistry, to make that enjoyable.
467
00:45:04.110 –> 00:45:14.070
Shlomo Sher: right but, but you can say yeah you know so what’s you know jeans my jeans have led me to be programmed in some way, why should I care about my programming right what’s what’s the point of that right.
468
00:45:14.070 –> 00:45:15.090
A Ashcraft: Is it good luck.
469
00:45:15.480 –> 00:45:17.640
A Ashcraft: So, as my is my answer to that.
470
00:45:18.930 –> 00:45:19.620
Shlomo Sher: Well, I mean.
471
00:45:20.820 –> 00:45:25.800
Shlomo Sher: You know, we fighter programming all the time right, I mean you know look, I mean that.
472
00:45:27.600 –> 00:45:29.010
Shlomo Sher: let’s take the fun right.
473
00:45:29.160 –> 00:45:29.640
A Ashcraft: So.
474
00:45:30.030 –> 00:45:37.170
Shlomo Sher: You know let’s say i’ve been looked yet you might say, we fight our we fight parts of our programming with other parts of our programming.
475
00:45:37.320 –> 00:45:39.720
Shlomo Sher: Right right the parts that we more identify with.
476
00:45:39.990 –> 00:45:41.640
Shlomo Sher: Right that’s right kind of another way to.
477
00:45:42.210 –> 00:45:53.970
Shlomo Sher: Look at that, but, but you could say you know look here’s a kind of game where i’m playing and i’m having fun, but I feel bad about having fun about this right, I feel bad let’s let’s say i’m griffey right.
478
00:45:54.420 –> 00:45:55.320
Shlomo Sher: having fun.
479
00:45:55.350 –> 00:46:06.480
Shlomo Sher: But my evolutionary mechanisms essentially our programming to have fun doing this, but my you know moral compass, which is another kind of programming is tell me hey you know that’s not really a good way to have fun.
480
00:46:06.840 –> 00:46:07.260
A Ashcraft: that’s right.
481
00:46:07.440 –> 00:46:09.630
Shlomo Sher: it’s trying to change that part of you so.
482
00:46:09.630 –> 00:46:12.570
A Ashcraft: you’re where we’re not monolithic which is great.
483
00:46:13.470 –> 00:46:16.080
A Ashcraft: Right even individually we’re not monolithic.
484
00:46:16.350 –> 00:46:23.310
Shlomo Sher: Oh, we are so complicated, you know in fact that right, I mean I mean current neuroscience you know doesn’t have us as a.
485
00:46:23.880 –> 00:46:28.200
Shlomo Sher: You know, you know there’s kind of the the old idea that there is like a.
486
00:46:28.650 –> 00:46:45.840
Shlomo Sher: person inside us that, like a mini person that’s the real you right and current neuroscience doesn’t think that there is like a real you right it’s all just layers of different systems interacting right creating an illusion of you know of a single entity but let’s just ignore that.
487
00:46:46.830 –> 00:46:48.450
Shlomo Sher: Because we’re living regular life.
488
00:46:48.750 –> 00:46:49.830
Shlomo Sher: So, yes.
489
00:46:50.340 –> 00:46:51.750
A Ashcraft: So I mean that’s.
490
00:46:51.810 –> 00:46:57.090
A Ashcraft: That becomes a philosophical that becomes a philosophical foundation for how we understand the world doesn’t it.
491
00:47:00.210 –> 00:47:13.710
Shlomo Sher: it’s it’s complicated, I mean yeah yeah and in a sense, in a sense, it does, but and maybe we also don’t have much of a choice, except to think of ourselves as a single entity right but.
492
00:47:15.120 –> 00:47:23.100
Shlomo Sher: And there’s yeah there’s stuff that we could talk about that, but I think i’ll take us a little further away, but speaking of real life, I want to kind of like connect this idea that.
493
00:47:23.490 –> 00:47:33.210
Shlomo Sher: You know the kind of things the way that the questions about how or why we should we play connect to I think you know how or why we should live.
494
00:47:33.750 –> 00:47:35.940
Shlomo Sher: So right so let’s say we said right.
495
00:47:36.210 –> 00:47:40.650
Shlomo Sher: We should play games or let’s say perform specific actions in games right.
496
00:47:40.890 –> 00:47:53.880
Shlomo Sher: Why, you know, because you could also apply this to, why do you play the game, the way you do right, so one way to answer that you know as we should do it only if we enjoy them right because there’s no point in doing things in games if you’re not enjoying them.
497
00:47:54.180 –> 00:48:07.050
Shlomo Sher: Right right So if you enjoy but that’s Kevin done because you know there’s plenty of times when you know you need to sacrifice short term pleasure.
498
00:48:07.530 –> 00:48:09.630
A Ashcraft: Right, in fact, even within a game.
499
00:48:09.870 –> 00:48:19.290
A Ashcraft: You can look if you if you if we get even more more granular in the experience of playing a game, you know navigating through the menus to get to the game.
500
00:48:21.390 –> 00:48:26.010
Shlomo Sher: learning how to navigate the menus the learning how to navigate menus to get to the game.
501
00:48:26.280 –> 00:48:27.570
A Ashcraft: Is fun.
502
00:48:27.690 –> 00:48:35.010
A Ashcraft: Right, the game is fun so you’re you’re you’re basically pushing through these unfun parts to get to the fun parts, even within that the.
503
00:48:35.070 –> 00:48:37.110
A Ashcraft: Right, the activity or playing a game.
504
00:48:37.320 –> 00:48:44.310
Shlomo Sher: Right and when you’re getting into the activity of the game right you gotta do you gotta go through things that are not necessarily fun.
505
00:48:45.000 –> 00:48:52.290
Shlomo Sher: In the game to get to the parts that you like okay so so notice, like the same idea could be transferred to life right, so you know.
506
00:48:52.950 –> 00:48:56.340
Shlomo Sher: Right your life philosophy should be that you should only do things if you enjoy them.
507
00:48:56.910 –> 00:49:09.330
Shlomo Sher: But you know very quickly that turns out to be a really bad idea if you’re living a real life right you learn that okay short term sacrifice and pleasure, as is is a good idea to get more pleasure in the long run.
508
00:49:09.990 –> 00:49:23.070
Shlomo Sher: But then Okay, we might say right fun or pleasures not the only reason to play a game right and maybe maybe you have other reasons, maybe you have reasons to kind of you know, improve your skills.
509
00:49:23.100 –> 00:49:27.510
Shlomo Sher: Maybe have reasons to learn about the world maybe you have reasons to kind of.
510
00:49:28.530 –> 00:49:29.580
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s interesting.
511
00:49:31.230 –> 00:49:39.990
Shlomo Sher: Even if fellowship you know, I wonder if you know you can you can play a game that you don’t enjoy, but you can enjoy the fellowship that comes with the game.
512
00:49:40.320 –> 00:49:41.460
Shlomo Sher: mm hmm which is.
513
00:49:41.700 –> 00:49:42.180
A Ashcraft: For sure.
514
00:49:42.450 –> 00:49:43.170
A Ashcraft: Right sure it.
515
00:49:43.410 –> 00:49:44.190
A Ashcraft: happens all the time.
516
00:49:44.580 –> 00:49:55.770
Shlomo Sher: Right and you’re still getting pleasure from the activity and it’s and maybe your game is even different because you and your friends can be making fun of the bad game, and maybe playing making fun of the bad game could be the game that you’re playing.
517
00:49:56.310 –> 00:49:57.360
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
518
00:49:57.960 –> 00:50:02.160
A Ashcraft: or the way to squeeze fun out of something that would otherwise not be a fun experience.
519
00:50:02.520 –> 00:50:10.830
Shlomo Sher: Right right, but then again notice and then you know there’s there’s games that are serious games right that are about let’s say you know.
520
00:50:11.190 –> 00:50:22.800
Shlomo Sher: Educating you, and then there are games that are educational games that are about making you let’s say making you better in some way and i’m thinking about games like games that teach you how to play a musical instrument.
521
00:50:22.980 –> 00:50:24.930
Shlomo Sher: Sure, or teach you another language.
522
00:50:25.440 –> 00:50:28.590
Shlomo Sher: Guy I mean he’s a teacher another language or so not fun.
523
00:50:29.010 –> 00:50:30.600
Shlomo Sher: But but.
524
00:50:31.020 –> 00:50:35.460
A Ashcraft: it’s a term but they’re trying very hard to bring some of these ideas of fun into it.
525
00:50:35.550 –> 00:50:36.450
A Ashcraft: They they’re trying.
526
00:50:36.480 –> 00:50:39.390
A Ashcraft: they’re making them more beautiful they’re trying to bring other elements so.
527
00:50:39.480 –> 00:50:47.880
A Ashcraft: Like right now, and you know they’re trying to there and they try very hard to get the challenge right, so that at least the challenge part of it is fun and.
528
00:50:48.120 –> 00:50:48.750
Shlomo Sher: So right.
529
00:50:49.620 –> 00:50:55.050
Shlomo Sher: You know, compared to the old ways of learning languages there’s so much better.
530
00:50:56.280 –> 00:50:58.470
A Ashcraft: But there’s something interesting, I think, and what you’re saying.
531
00:50:58.860 –> 00:51:05.910
A Ashcraft: All of these things that you’re talking about all these different reasons for playing games are all ultimately came to come down to learning.
532
00:51:06.930 –> 00:51:14.250
A Ashcraft: Like you’re learning about the world you’re learning about the game you’re learning about you know when we talked about you know animals even animals play they play to learn.
533
00:51:16.410 –> 00:51:17.040
A Ashcraft: So.
534
00:51:17.220 –> 00:51:24.960
A Ashcraft: So maybe maybe there’s something sort of fundamental about that that all of these reasons for playing games are ultimately about learning.
535
00:51:25.710 –> 00:51:29.010
Shlomo Sher: Well it’s interesting because when we might live.
536
00:51:29.070 –> 00:51:29.760
A Ashcraft: The life.
537
00:51:30.360 –> 00:51:36.060
Shlomo Sher: That we believe in learning what right so again let’s put throw in like what’s the point of learning.
538
00:51:36.510 –> 00:51:43.200
Shlomo Sher: Right right and notice right, it might be that learning some things might be more worthwhile than learning other things.
539
00:51:43.380 –> 00:51:53.490
A Ashcraft: Right and we pick and choose right we choose like I i’m going to spend the next hour playing this this bad game, so that I can learn about this bad game, so that I can teach.
540
00:51:54.240 –> 00:51:55.410
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
541
00:51:55.470 –> 00:51:58.530
A Ashcraft: So okay other game designers how to be better game designers.
542
00:51:59.160 –> 00:52:04.020
Shlomo Sher: Right so let’s uh let’s get out of that particular our because our teaching.
543
00:52:05.220 –> 00:52:08.520
Shlomo Sher: are playing games for for teaching them as a little bit different I guess.
544
00:52:09.840 –> 00:52:27.600
Shlomo Sher: right but, but this idea of right learning learning skills versus learning or you know or versus learning other skills that we talked about earlier, I think it really matters because I think some skills are just more important than others right.
545
00:52:28.890 –> 00:52:46.530
Shlomo Sher: Or what you can get from those skills right, it might be, you know it might be that you know you’re learning a skill of how to make how to build things in minecraft right and you’re spending like you know hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours right on this and.
546
00:52:47.850 –> 00:52:59.340
Shlomo Sher: You know, in one sense, potentially that skill is useless another sense, potentially that skill is extremely useful right, you can do a lot with that skill right so right.
547
00:52:59.370 –> 00:53:04.110
Shlomo Sher: notice the skill itself is kind of even instrumental for something else, maybe.
548
00:53:04.440 –> 00:53:08.970
A Ashcraft: mm hmm well that’s sort of what I think that’s what I was sort of getting at with the idea that they were foundational.
549
00:53:09.570 –> 00:53:19.890
A Ashcraft: i’m like there are some things you do to build skills or or create knowledge, you know gain knowledge that is foundational for doing other things later on.
550
00:53:20.910 –> 00:53:34.200
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so what kind of other things so here’s here’s one classic answer to that right um the point of all this kind of directly or indirectly, is to improve ourselves.
551
00:53:34.290 –> 00:53:36.510
Shlomo Sher: in some way right to become better people.
552
00:53:37.080 –> 00:53:43.950
Shlomo Sher: Sure, so notice right to become better people because you know, obviously I can improve my skills of driving a car and rocket league.
553
00:53:44.910 –> 00:53:55.200
Shlomo Sher: But is that going to make me a better person so notice right that the standard of deciding whether what you’re getting better at matters or not.
554
00:53:55.650 –> 00:54:07.890
Shlomo Sher: Right could might make sense in terms of is this making me a better person and notice the idea that a person doesn’t necessarily mean is this making me a more moral person that that’s not what I mean.
555
00:54:08.070 –> 00:54:08.280
A Ashcraft: sure.
556
00:54:08.310 –> 00:54:09.390
Shlomo Sher: I mean in terms of.
557
00:54:10.860 –> 00:54:20.640
Shlomo Sher: Well, I think of it in terms of kind of the way Aristotle thought about it, and in terms of making you the kind of person that is more likely to live a good life.
558
00:54:21.420 –> 00:54:28.920
Shlomo Sher: Okay right and it’s interesting because you know we’ve talked about Aristotle, we talked about this a couple times right.
559
00:54:28.950 –> 00:54:29.970
A Ashcraft: He has this idea of.
560
00:54:30.180 –> 00:54:35.130
Shlomo Sher: Right a living a good life is an active life, where you’re going out and you’re being.
561
00:54:36.240 –> 00:54:42.570
Shlomo Sher: you’re exercising your good character and you’re exercising your intelligence right and you’re doing that, with your friends.
562
00:54:43.230 –> 00:54:49.890
A Ashcraft: you’re going to have to forgive me on this one, but all of this feels like literally just kicking the can down the road.
563
00:54:51.120 –> 00:54:51.690
Shlomo Sher: well.
564
00:54:52.830 –> 00:54:55.440
A Ashcraft: Let me go on, because because, like all right well.
565
00:54:56.340 –> 00:55:03.780
A Ashcraft: You have to say, well, I I I play games, I do I do things to become a better person Well now, I need to define what better person means.
566
00:55:04.050 –> 00:55:12.210
A Ashcraft: So now let’s look at let’s talk about what better person is well let’s talk about what Aristotle says, and so Aristotle says, you know, a better person is somebody who lives lives, a good life.
567
00:55:12.510 –> 00:55:20.850
A Ashcraft: Okay Well now, we just need to figure out what good life means, and now we can and so now we can look at his examples of a good life and what if I don’t agree with those ideas.
568
00:55:21.390 –> 00:55:23.340
Shlomo Sher: Well then, that’s a.
569
00:55:24.000 –> 00:55:35.670
Shlomo Sher: Then, then then you’re doing is you’re you’re you need to find another solution to this problem right, I mean people have kind of different ideas of what what a good life is.
570
00:55:35.940 –> 00:55:37.860
Shlomo Sher: But you’re yeah is right that.
571
00:55:38.190 –> 00:55:38.700
Shlomo Sher: you’re I.
572
00:55:38.970 –> 00:55:41.430
A Ashcraft: feel like you’re you’re like you’re trying to define it.
573
00:55:41.790 –> 00:55:48.720
A Ashcraft: and trying to define a beer just basically kicking the definition down the road kicking the definition down the road until it finally gets to something that’s completely subjective.
574
00:55:51.540 –> 00:55:52.170
Shlomo Sher: let’s see.
575
00:55:54.240 –> 00:55:58.560
Shlomo Sher: Well, I mean look it’s I mean you’re right, I mean it’s got it and somewhere right.
576
00:55:58.830 –> 00:56:05.220
Shlomo Sher: mm hmm so right so with Aristotle, the ideas that it’s ending at a place where look here’s what a good life fits.
577
00:56:05.700 –> 00:56:13.860
Shlomo Sher: And a good life is that you’re a particular kind of person and you’re living life in a particular kind of way with other with friends and and you’re enjoying it.
578
00:56:14.190 –> 00:56:27.390
Shlomo Sher: And the the hope the idea right is that this is putting together a lot of these other things that you wanted right that that it’s it’s bigger than all that right, it gives a place to this idea of fun.
579
00:56:27.840 –> 00:56:36.480
Shlomo Sher: Right, it gives a and the idea of different kinds of fun right all kind of can go into that it gives ideal so to the purpose of fellowship.
580
00:56:36.990 –> 00:56:51.450
Shlomo Sher: Right and how that deficits in it, it gives context to the idea of becoming better at something and what’s the point of becoming better and what how could it be better to become better at one thing, rather than something else.
581
00:56:51.690 –> 00:56:52.020
A Ashcraft: So.
582
00:56:52.080 –> 00:57:04.770
Shlomo Sher: There is a sense right we’re kind of put where we are going kind of higher, but this is kind of what happens when you begin and notice, this is not really just about games, this should apply to anything in your life.
583
00:57:04.950 –> 00:57:17.520
Shlomo Sher: Sure right and we can always kind of ask you’re right in the sense that it could always be kind of regressive right, we can ask why do this and, and you know, whatever answer you gave, we could say but what’s the point of that.
584
00:57:17.880 –> 00:57:33.570
Shlomo Sher: Right whatever answer you give us a well what’s the point of that, but the hope is that look if we get to the point of saying, because this is what a good life fits and at that point, I could ask you well, why do you what’s the point of living a good life.
585
00:57:34.590 –> 00:57:35.040
Shlomo Sher: and
586
00:57:35.400 –> 00:57:38.280
A Ashcraft: You know, or what it, why have you chosen that.
587
00:57:39.090 –> 00:57:40.920
A Ashcraft: This particular definition of good.
588
00:57:42.180 –> 00:57:53.880
Shlomo Sher: um because I, because I think it’s a good one, and we can argue about what are so notice what we’re not going nowhere right, we can argue about ideas of of what is good.
589
00:57:55.200 –> 00:57:56.850
Shlomo Sher: Right and we do argue about ideas.
590
00:57:56.850 –> 00:58:00.180
A Ashcraft: yeah, of course, and we have this very this very episode.
591
00:58:00.240 –> 00:58:01.170
A Ashcraft: talked about you know.
592
00:58:01.380 –> 00:58:04.290
A Ashcraft: You and I have differences in terms of how active, we are.
593
00:58:04.950 –> 00:58:11.220
A Ashcraft: Right and how much we like want to make sure that we we spend every every moment doing something.
594
00:58:12.870 –> 00:58:15.660
A Ashcraft: Though as opposed to just sitting on the grass and doing nothing.
595
00:58:15.840 –> 00:58:19.890
Shlomo Sher: Right, though I don’t think we really disagree on whether.
596
00:58:20.550 –> 00:58:25.350
A Ashcraft: No, no, not in terms of disagreement like that, but it just in terms of how we choose to live our lives.
597
00:58:25.620 –> 00:58:30.240
Shlomo Sher: How we choose to live our lives, though, you know i’m not relaxing is awesome I wish.
598
00:58:30.690 –> 00:58:33.000
Shlomo Sher: Better you know, let me not, I do not want to.
599
00:58:33.240 –> 00:58:47.100
Shlomo Sher: Be relaxing I think relaxation is awesome you know that that I happen to be a workaholic uh you know and have this kind of viewpoint left does not necessarily make me a better person than anybody else and maybe to my detriment right.
600
00:58:47.130 –> 00:58:51.660
A Ashcraft: Right right, and I wish and, similarly, I wish that you know I got more done.
601
00:58:52.980 –> 00:58:54.330
Shlomo Sher: Right fair enough right.
602
00:58:54.360 –> 00:59:10.530
Shlomo Sher: Right, but you know when we look at those things we use we judge them according to something right right, and this is kind of how we get to eventually we need kind of a point of judging the quality of our lives.
603
00:59:11.730 –> 00:59:12.060
Shlomo Sher: Right.
604
00:59:12.180 –> 00:59:27.480
Shlomo Sher: And what things contribute to the quality of our lives now you have people in positive psychology that are going to write tell you things like you know about what happiness is and what are the kinds of things that people do that lead to happiness.
605
00:59:28.500 –> 00:59:46.740
Shlomo Sher: The full of the fullest philosophers always going to say well Okay, but is happiness really the the point of it all right and notice, we can have things like happiness or fulfillment or maybe the point of life is to live in mark.
606
00:59:47.880 –> 00:59:49.350
Shlomo Sher: All right, all right make.
607
00:59:50.100 –> 00:59:51.390
A Ashcraft: Millions of people don’t get to.
608
00:59:51.750 –> 00:59:56.970
Shlomo Sher: Right so right maybe they fail, they fail that life right.
609
00:59:57.450 –> 01:00:00.270
Shlomo Sher: I met maybe maybe the point of life is to create.
610
01:00:00.270 –> 01:00:01.920
A Ashcraft: connections right.
611
01:00:02.160 –> 01:00:08.070
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean there’s and again notice, these are ideas, but people can argue about them.
612
01:00:08.280 –> 01:00:14.100
Shlomo Sher: Right people do argue about them it’s just that we rarely talk about them on the level of games.
613
01:00:15.270 –> 01:00:24.930
Shlomo Sher: Right and to me, this is one of those things where it seems like we talked about them with so many other parts of our life.
614
01:00:25.350 –> 01:00:28.290
Shlomo Sher: Right is this is this, you know.
615
01:00:28.650 –> 01:00:30.570
A Ashcraft: This is a valuable use of my time.
616
01:00:30.630 –> 01:00:47.130
Shlomo Sher: Right is this a valuable use of my time and we look for kind of ways of answering that and a lot of times if it’s fun that seems to answer the question but we’ve kind of seen that it doesn’t always answer the question, or at least that question is more complicated.
617
01:00:47.610 –> 01:01:04.200
A Ashcraft: Right, I thought I don’t i’m not sure because, again, going back to self care, like, I think I think recent years, particularly this last year has made us all much more aware of the idea that we just need to take time for ourselves.
618
01:01:05.760 –> 01:01:06.300
Shlomo Sher: And right.
619
01:01:06.360 –> 01:01:10.950
A Ashcraft: You know, and some of us get to some of us have the privilege of being able to do that more than others.
620
01:01:12.660 –> 01:01:13.170
A Ashcraft: and
621
01:01:14.640 –> 01:01:28.740
A Ashcraft: And so, you know that whether it’s you know reading a book or playing a game or going out for a drive or or playing guitar or doing anything like that that the idea that you just need to do something for yourself.
622
01:01:30.150 –> 01:01:31.530
Shlomo Sher: Sure right.
623
01:01:31.950 –> 01:01:32.940
A Ashcraft: To a better person.
624
01:01:34.740 –> 01:01:39.720
Shlomo Sher: Right, or at least makes you happier, or at least makes you feel more fulfilled with your life.
625
01:01:39.750 –> 01:01:45.030
Shlomo Sher: or right and they right again notice kind of we can keep going, you know with that.
626
01:01:46.530 –> 01:02:02.430
Shlomo Sher: All right, I hope this made God just thinking about what you’re doing with the game and why you’re doing everything with a game more complicated and with be more complicated hopefully more interesting right and interesting is fun, or at least that’s the type of fun.
627
01:02:04.830 –> 01:02:05.250
A Ashcraft: alright.
628
01:02:05.520 –> 01:02:06.960
Shlomo Sher: Alright, and a good podcast.
629
01:02:07.050 –> 01:02:08.040
A Ashcraft: Good podcast.
630
01:02:08.820 –> 01:02:09.750
Shlomo Sher: play nice everyone.
