[Release Date: March 14, 2023] The monsters we see in video games are usually antagonists that we destroy without remorse. But what is a monster and are there ethical questions that arise in relation to how they’re represented? In what ways can monsters utilize racist and sexist tropes in harmful ways? Can we treat a type of monsters as a race of pure evil? And is there anything that monsters might do that is beyond the pale? We chat with Dom Ford about Monster Ethics!
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
00:09:25.990 –> 00:09:30.790
Shlomo Sher: all right. Welcome, everybody. We’re here with Josh Ford. Yeah. Okay.
105
00:09:31.240 –> 00:09:34.380
Shlomo Sher: then. Oh, wow, okay. So let me let me try that again.
106
00:09:36.420 –> 00:10:02.729
Shlomo Sher: All right, Everybody we’re here with Don Ford. Dom Ford is a freshly minted Phd. From the it. University of Copenhagen, Denmark. His dissertation puts forward a method for understanding Games to Mythology Arguing the game worlds instantiate particular models for us, understanding the world which the player then inhabits. He also works with conceptions of history, nostalgia, and games and depictions of monsters, which is why we’re here to talk with him about monster ethics.
107
00:10:03.760 –> 00:10:13.769
Shlomo Sher: I have to say, you know this is first of all, Dom, welcome to the show. Yay. Thank you very much. It’s thank you for inviting me. It’s really great to be here looking forward to it.
108
00:10:14.400 –> 00:10:28.200
Shlomo Sher: I can’t believe we’re talking about the mon, the monster ethics. But we’re not talking about the ethical decisions monsters need to make, though. That might be fun, for we’re we’re talking about. You know
109
00:10:28.660 –> 00:10:48.070
Shlomo Sher: how to depict our monsters right? Right so. And I I thought we’d start by asking you what is a monster for our conversation today, so it seems like a a large category of potential things that can humans be. Monsters are only certain kind of humans. Monsters. How would you describe what you’d think of as a monster.
110
00:10:49.030 –> 00:11:07.129
Dom Ford: So I mean it’s a great question, because you’re totally right to point out that there are a 1 million different things that we call monsters that you have like often like serial killers like, say, a Ted Bundy will be monster you then you have, like sort of classical, like a dragon, or or something like that. But you also might refer to like
111
00:11:07.140 –> 00:11:21.090
Dom Ford: some huge and hideous building as monstrous or as a monster building as a there’s one in Hong Kong. I believe that’s nicknamed the Monster, the Monster Building. So we we use this term monster to refer to so many different things, and that kind of.
112
00:11:21.430 –> 00:11:22.949
Dom Ford: I think a lot of the time makes it
113
00:11:23.040 –> 00:11:25.510
Dom Ford: seem like it could be meaningless. But
114
00:11:25.870 –> 00:11:29.329
Dom Ford: i’m quite interested in what we’re we’re doing with that so? I I think of
115
00:11:29.480 –> 00:11:38.209
Dom Ford: the term monster as a discursive category. So monsters don’t exist as such they don’t exist prior to being labeled as a monster.
116
00:11:38.220 –> 00:11:52.920
Dom Ford: And this label then gets applied to. You know, humans, creatures, whatever, and it’s done for a certain purpose to represent certain things. We we’re making a claim about something when we call it a monster. Often that’s actually a moral claim, I would say, but
117
00:11:52.990 –> 00:11:55.469
Dom Ford: it doesn’t have to be. I I think
118
00:11:56.190 –> 00:12:02.360
Dom Ford: the kind of 2 things that really crystallize monstrosity for me are the notion of excess.
119
00:12:02.490 –> 00:12:07.489
Dom Ford: and relatedly the notion of boundaries and category crisis. So
120
00:12:07.730 –> 00:12:08.940
Dom Ford: typically
121
00:12:09.290 –> 00:12:11.569
Dom Ford: the monster will represent
122
00:12:13.240 –> 00:12:17.569
Dom Ford: some, maybe natural, or, you know, natural in inverted commas
123
00:12:17.710 –> 00:12:27.570
Dom Ford: trait, but in excess. So you know, a a a dragon might be excessively greedy as well as being excessively large. And all these kinds of things
124
00:12:27.610 –> 00:12:45.350
Dom Ford: you can even have, like otherwise good traits. So I’ve done a lot of work on giants, and often they are, You know they embodies for certain kinds of masculine ideals right where they’re big and they’re and they’re strong, and they’re powerful, and they’re sort of sexually very virulent in especially medieval literature.
125
00:12:45.360 –> 00:12:51.590
Shlomo Sher: did not know that about the sexual habits of giants, really they?
126
00:12:52.090 –> 00:13:02.889
Dom Ford: Oh, yeah, I I it gets you guys crazy. I mean, if if to be a little bit explicit here, there’s this I can’t remember which it is, but the I think it’s the giant of of on some Michelle, who.
127
00:13:04.330 –> 00:13:10.460
Dom Ford: essentially to not to mince my words. His penis is so big that he sort of splits people in half
128
00:13:10.540 –> 00:13:19.789
Dom Ford: with it, all right. And so this is like a common thing that comes up right, the the the sexual variance. But you know the point is that all of these different things.
129
00:13:21.950 –> 00:13:24.349
Dom Ford: Things are in a much reduced
130
00:13:31.920 –> 00:13:51.659
Dom Ford: used form in some context, even within that society, like so strong before it, becomes weird and like and and kind of grotesque. So it kind of all goes back to this idea of of of setting boundaries, and then the monster exceeds them in some way that that would be kind of where I would say the heart of monstrosity is when we’re thinking of it as like a discursive category.
131
00:13:51.870 –> 00:13:52.520
right? Because we
132
00:13:52.980 –> 00:13:56.620
about like sports figures as being like. Oh, he’s a monster on the
133
00:13:56.700 –> 00:13:57.280
you.
134
00:13:57.590 –> 00:13:58.290
right?
135
00:13:58.580 –> 00:13:59.450
So
136
00:14:00.730 –> 00:14:02.039
as sort of like.
137
00:14:02.980 –> 00:14:05.270
he’s really good at what he does. He’s a.
138
00:14:05.830 –> 00:14:08.130
Yeah, yeah, right right?
139
00:14:08.260 –> 00:14:18.790
Shlomo Sher: But not just with a gross exaggeration of strength compared to to regular people. Right? Exactly. Because I think I think what it what they’re kind of doing
140
00:14:21.940 –> 00:14:37.949
Dom Ford: the when you, when you label a a sports person, it’s like as like a monster. That was a what an absolute beast we might say in that kind of thing is your kind of, even if it’s in Chester, even if it’s positive or whatever you’re kind of saying, they are exceeding the boundaries of humanity.
141
00:14:37.990 –> 00:14:39.270
Shlomo Sher: That’s right, right, right?
142
00:14:41.880 –> 00:14:43.720
So it’s kind of going on there. Yeah.
143
00:14:44.490 –> 00:14:45.480
right. Some monsters are
144
00:14:45.550 –> 00:14:47.280
excessive, excessive people.
145
00:14:48.070 –> 00:14:51.920
Dom Ford: Yeah, I think so I think so, or or excessive anything really
146
00:14:52.480 –> 00:15:04.179
Shlomo Sher: So what about the the moral judgment about monsters? Do we do? We always judge monsters as a as evil, or there, somewhere in the middle.
147
00:15:07.240 –> 00:15:12.700
Dom Ford: You’ve always got to be careful with like an always right. I think what we very often do is
148
00:15:14.330 –> 00:15:23.519
Dom Ford: so you know you can. You can often see monster and hero kind of in a kind of parallel. In in this sense they often have excessive in certain qualities, and
149
00:15:24.790 –> 00:15:28.290
Dom Ford: but kind of where, maybe, the differences is that monsters are. Then
150
00:15:28.450 –> 00:15:40.819
Dom Ford: erez agmoni, they’re mythologized in this way in a negative light. So it’s like something that we want to cast out of society. So this goes back to kind of the idea of of what’s the purpose of giving something the label monster, one
151
00:15:41.110 –> 00:15:52.760
Dom Ford: usually, and you know you bring up a good counter example with like the the sports person, but, like in general, we would label something as a monster as a kind of pretext, or a or a kind of a grounding to
152
00:15:52.790 –> 00:15:57.209
Dom Ford: casting them out of society, removing them something along those lines.
153
00:15:57.530 –> 00:16:03.049
Dom Ford: And so this often happens there’s you familiar with a Philip Cole.
154
00:16:03.290 –> 00:16:07.799
Dom Ford: but the myth of evil. He’s written a book on that. So it’s like the philosophy of evil.
155
00:16:07.830 –> 00:16:15.929
Dom Ford: and he outlines. He kind of says, there’s like 4 ways in which a human can be evil. So there’s like the or
156
00:16:16.230 –> 00:16:21.470
Dom Ford: 4 ways that we can think about human evil. So there’s like the pure conception which will be like
157
00:16:21.570 –> 00:16:37.880
Dom Ford: humans, can just be evil for its own sake. They can do evil things just because they evil. You have the impure conception which is humans, cannot cannot be evil for the sake of evil, but they might commit evil things in pursuit of something else that they think is good. Right?
158
00:16:39.240 –> 00:16:45.469
Dom Ford: Then there’s the psychological one where it’s Humans can’t be evil, but they can. If there’s something wrong with their brain.
159
00:16:45.610 –> 00:16:51.749
Dom Ford: And then finally he kind of puts forward the the monstrous conception which is
160
00:16:52.440 –> 00:16:55.629
Dom Ford: It’s it’s it. It kind of it’s a torto logical.
161
00:16:55.670 –> 00:16:59.580
Dom Ford: discursive, labeling because it is like
162
00:16:59.600 –> 00:17:19.089
Dom Ford: the human can’t be evil, because if a human is being evil, then they are not actually a human, but they are a monster just who looks like a human, this kind of thing, right? Where part of so going back to like an example like Ted Bundy, right? The example the idea is, we call him a monster, because we’re not comfortable, accepting him as being like us, being
163
00:17:19.099 –> 00:17:21.740
Shlomo Sher: well, we say he lost his humanity in some way.
164
00:17:22.230 –> 00:17:35.150
Dom Ford: You might say he lost his humanity. You might say he never was. You can. You can think of it in all these different ways, but by calling him a monster. What we’re saying it is that he is not us. We are not like him. And then and then.
165
00:17:35.520 –> 00:17:38.219
Dom Ford: when you do that, the the the kind of
166
00:17:38.260 –> 00:17:51.279
Dom Ford: the the really good trick about doing that is, then you don’t have to deal with anything within yourself or within your society. You just have to get rid of the monster, the monstrous element in society. It’s nothing about being human.
167
00:17:51.950 –> 00:17:55.720
Dom Ford: I mean
168
00:17:57.000 –> 00:18:06.039
Dom Ford: exactly, and that’s that’s where it can also get kind of problematic in in how you use the term, but kind of just sticking with this, for now I I think
169
00:18:06.060 –> 00:18:17.689
Dom Ford: we very often, but I wouldn’t say, always use the term monster to kind of at least associate some kind of immorality or evil with the the the personal thing being labeled
170
00:18:18.420 –> 00:18:33.309
Shlomo Sher: Okay. So now let’s move on to you know representation, right? Which is what we’re mostly gonna talk about. The first thing that comes to my mind. It really is any question of kind of representation of monsters is
171
00:18:33.320 –> 00:18:48.730
Shlomo Sher: any kind of question of a racism or discrimination of any kind right? Sometimes the way monsters look might be based on or influenced by, let’s say, racist caricatures, and I can think of a bunch of old ones where
172
00:18:48.740 –> 00:18:55.590
Shlomo Sher: you know racist caricatures of African Americans were used to display sort of monsters. So
173
00:18:55.640 –> 00:19:03.300
Shlomo Sher: and if you do that, the the more question is is using the monster in the game contributing to the spread of racist caricatures.
174
00:19:04.300 –> 00:19:10.810
Shlomo Sher: First of all, does that happen? Are there any examples that you might talk about? That? Would something like that? Is actually the case.
175
00:19:11.590 –> 00:19:17.089
Dom Ford: Yeah, I mean, I think we can probably all all think of these examples, and it and it kind of obviously depends.
176
00:19:17.160 –> 00:19:17.710
Dom Ford: Well.
177
00:19:20.030 –> 00:19:30.640
Dom Ford: one means exactly. But I mean I. What came to my mind was something like the gurudo in in illusion of Zelda. Whether you know this kind of tribe of desert dwelling, scimitar. We all
178
00:19:30.650 –> 00:19:42.619
Dom Ford: thieves, and they are all thieves, they all evil people. And then and then from them comes the great evil Gandhorf, right? So this kind of, and they they all kind of dark skinned as well. So you have all these kind of potentially racist stereotypes here.
179
00:19:42.640 –> 00:19:45.569
Dom Ford: and they’re all associated with evil. They’re all associated with
180
00:19:46.020 –> 00:19:48.409
Dom Ford: the great, the great monster, I think
181
00:19:48.620 –> 00:19:52.420
Dom Ford: another example was a resident evil 5. There was some of those.
182
00:19:54.000 –> 00:20:09.449
Dom Ford: a lot of controversy about that where you’re in I haven’t actually played the game. But you’re kind of in Africa, and there are these African tribe, stereotype people with masks and all all the rest of it, and they are all the zombies, and you’re just getting them down.
183
00:20:09.770 –> 00:20:11.360
Dom Ford: So I think there’s kind of
184
00:20:11.550 –> 00:20:16.460
Dom Ford: I think it definitely does happen in in in plenty of places. Yeah.
185
00:20:16.940 –> 00:20:18.940
A controversy and
186
00:20:19.040 –> 00:20:20.269
dungeons and dragons. And
187
00:20:20.880 –> 00:20:21.710
okay.
188
00:20:22.600 –> 00:20:23.200
That it
189
00:20:24.120 –> 00:20:25.460
with the drow
190
00:20:25.580 –> 00:20:26.210
the drought.
191
00:20:26.960 –> 00:20:27.750
Yeah.
192
00:20:29.760 –> 00:20:30.500
it’s a
193
00:20:33.400 –> 00:20:34.030
and
194
00:20:34.280 –> 00:20:35.260
dark skin.
195
00:20:35.550 –> 00:20:36.840
Shlomo Sher: That’s the way that
196
00:20:37.120 –> 00:20:37.760
depicted, and
197
00:20:39.380 –> 00:20:40.530
that’s the way they’ve stayed.
198
00:20:42.040 –> 00:20:43.500
Don’t Look, Africa
199
00:20:43.950 –> 00:20:45.030
and their skin color
200
00:20:48.030 –> 00:20:49.019
the word charcoal.
201
00:20:49.290 –> 00:20:50.610
But still
202
00:20:51.440 –> 00:20:53.660
they are an an evil race.
203
00:20:53.910 –> 00:20:54.629
When you see them
204
00:20:55.710 –> 00:20:56.480
community
205
00:20:56.860 –> 00:20:57.699
they will always
206
00:20:57.830 –> 00:20:58.620
attack you.
207
00:20:59.450 –> 00:21:00.500
and there is, of course, the
208
00:21:02.050 –> 00:21:03.869
the characters who break that rule. And
209
00:21:05.160 –> 00:21:06.000
so we have
210
00:21:07.030 –> 00:21:07.770
famous series of
211
00:21:07.810 –> 00:21:08.490
about it.
212
00:21:09.400 –> 00:21:10.060
Can’t quite remember
213
00:21:11.370 –> 00:21:12.130
Salvator
214
00:21:13.020 –> 00:21:13.950
all right.
215
00:21:14.480 –> 00:21:17.310
who took one of these characters and
216
00:21:17.640 –> 00:21:18.220
the hero of
217
00:21:18.660 –> 00:21:19.290
his story.
218
00:21:19.730 –> 00:21:20.570
And so
219
00:21:21.830 –> 00:21:22.410
you know, and it
220
00:21:22.830 –> 00:21:24.050
going against type.
221
00:21:24.410 –> 00:21:27.219
But of course you have to have a type to go against type.
222
00:21:27.330 –> 00:21:33.740
Shlomo Sher: Right? Yeah, exactly. Have these yeah, sweeping, you know, rules D: and d a sense trying to break that.
223
00:21:34.820 –> 00:21:36.560
Every race has good people in it.
224
00:21:39.170 –> 00:21:40.300
They have their own desires.
225
00:21:40.340 –> 00:21:41.890
needs and wants. And
226
00:21:42.300 –> 00:21:42.860
yeah.
227
00:21:45.650 –> 00:21:47.459
but kind of up in arms about that. Because
228
00:21:47.940 –> 00:21:48.940
this is the way it’s supposed to be.
229
00:21:50.230 –> 00:21:53.230
Dom Ford: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it’s ultimately kind of.
230
00:21:53.310 –> 00:21:57.480
Dom Ford: As with all these things, it’s going to be what you do with it. It’s it’s always going to be a bit
231
00:21:57.540 –> 00:22:03.779
Dom Ford: a bit weird to use any kind of stereotype or caricatures, right, especially racist ones. But it’s
232
00:22:03.810 –> 00:22:11.710
Dom Ford: it’s it’s essentially, I mean as we just talked about it’s, it’s associating whatever these caricatures or stereotypes are with.
233
00:22:12.020 –> 00:22:14.840
Dom Ford: something that we want to cast out or destroy.
234
00:22:15.340 –> 00:22:19.010
Dom Ford: and maybe something that we also think is kind of morally evil. And
235
00:22:19.260 –> 00:22:21.969
Dom Ford: those 2 things kind of in combination.
236
00:22:22.110 –> 00:22:23.320
Dom Ford: Yeah, it’s not great.
237
00:22:23.590 –> 00:22:29.430
Shlomo Sher: It’s interesting, though, with the example that Andy has, it’s simply the idea of a race itself being.
238
00:22:29.450 –> 00:22:31.370
Shlomo Sher: you know, this
239
00:22:31.490 –> 00:22:39.050
Shlomo Sher: race of monsters right that we are concerned about because they show any group of people as being inherently evil.
240
00:22:39.270 –> 00:22:41.809
Shlomo Sher: Right? That.
241
00:22:41.820 –> 00:23:01.640
Shlomo Sher: Yeah. What do you think I mean? Is, is it wrong to have monsters that are inherently evil, or it’s interesting. What even inherently evil means here, Andy, because i’m thinking of months, you know, monsters that are a group of beings that simply want power, or simply want to feed in what we think is an indiscriminate and inhumane way.
242
00:23:01.840 –> 00:23:03.310
Shlomo Sher: Right? Hmm.
243
00:23:03.960 –> 00:23:07.680
Dom Ford: I think this this kind of question. Oh, sorry. Yeah, like vampires. Yeah.
244
00:23:08.150 –> 00:23:26.520
Dom Ford: I think this kind of question comes up a lot. You see a lot with discussions on Tolkien right with the with the walks, for example, and I think that’s where the dark health thing came from, because dark health in in Tolkien are, you know, else you have not seen the light of of Valen, or rather than
245
00:23:26.530 –> 00:23:29.290
Dom Ford: dark skinned, or anything like that right?
246
00:23:29.470 –> 00:23:31.390
Dom Ford: But then you also have the Orcs right.
247
00:23:31.470 –> 00:23:32.480
Dom Ford: and that’s kind of
248
00:23:46.370 –> 00:23:48.560
Shlomo Sher: wow. This is a long time.
249
00:23:52.020 –> 00:24:01.450
Dom Ford: Have a complicated one that I keep wrestling with, because it’s just it’s a race of kind of very deep law reasons for why Orcs are the way they are, and why
250
00:24:02.040 –> 00:24:08.170
Dom Ford: that doesn’t then apply to element, or whatever. And you know I can’t remember this. All this reasons off the top of my head; but, like
251
00:24:08.200 –> 00:24:13.930
Dom Ford: you, can, it can be very well justified and richly justified in in the text, and can make
252
00:24:18.040 –> 00:24:24.650
Dom Ford: very compelling case for why evil? And so I don’t. I I just don’t know what to do with that. I mean. I’m curious what you think about that.
253
00:24:26.250 –> 00:24:28.880
Well, in the case of D and d they
254
00:24:28.940 –> 00:24:29.990
Dom Ford: they have
255
00:24:30.310 –> 00:24:31.129
from that they.
256
00:24:31.240 –> 00:24:32.340
you know, evil and good
257
00:24:32.870 –> 00:24:34.719
were game mechanics in their system, and
258
00:24:35.710 –> 00:24:37.060
they have. They have backed away from
259
00:24:38.330 –> 00:24:40.319
It’s just a role-play decision that you
260
00:24:41.070 –> 00:24:42.780
Shlomo Sher: I
261
00:24:42.980 –> 00:24:45.769
Shlomo Sher: to to to me. It You know I
262
00:24:46.890 –> 00:24:52.580
Shlomo Sher: I think it really kind of depends how closely humanized they are
263
00:24:52.850 –> 00:24:56.430
Shlomo Sher: right. So, for example, you know, like
264
00:24:56.540 –> 00:24:58.930
Shlomo Sher: you take, you know.
265
00:24:59.340 –> 00:25:07.299
Shlomo Sher: the orcs. Let’s say, sure we can go. We can go with the or some token, or any equivalent, because there’s so many monsters like that right?
266
00:25:07.340 –> 00:25:10.639
Shlomo Sher: You know the fact that they seen
267
00:25:10.710 –> 00:25:14.480
Shlomo Sher: in that case in in that particular
268
00:25:14.590 –> 00:25:17.319
Shlomo Sher: setting. Very, very inhuman
269
00:25:17.680 –> 00:25:27.939
Shlomo Sher: to me makes makes it seem, though I mean they still have. You know they have jealousies. They have fears they, but they’re not showing in any kind of domestic setting.
270
00:25:28.060 –> 00:25:33.509
Shlomo Sher: though maybe that’s a problem, because maybe they do have a domestic setting. But I you know I I I
271
00:25:33.680 –> 00:25:42.989
Shlomo Sher: to to me it’s I. I think the the vector maybe we’re looking at is how close to being humans are a day being depicted. If it’s animal urges, it’s one thing.
272
00:25:43.100 –> 00:25:54.489
Shlomo Sher: If they have a culture, and if they, you know, like no culture is gonna be inherently bad. But you know part of that. I was thinking about
273
00:25:54.880 –> 00:26:01.860
Shlomo Sher: what they do. That’s close to humans might be things like cultures. There might be things like families.
274
00:26:01.880 –> 00:26:07.159
Shlomo Sher: but it also might be kind of also the way they’re depicted, you know, in terms of
275
00:26:07.310 –> 00:26:20.700
Shlomo Sher: again how close they look to real human beings. So I was thinking about racial characteristics that might be kind of put in there, like, you know, flattened or hooked nose or slanted eyes.
276
00:26:20.720 –> 00:26:38.730
Shlomo Sher: You know where you seem to be referring to potentially now, not necessarily intentionally, but potentially, to groups of human beings. And the more you do things like that, the more it seems to be to be morally problematic. But, on the other hand, these are just kind of.
277
00:26:38.830 –> 00:26:41.280
Shlomo Sher: you know, the way human beings look.
278
00:26:41.850 –> 00:26:43.270
Shlomo Sher: And
279
00:26:43.320 –> 00:26:44.989
Shlomo Sher: you know
280
00:26:45.020 –> 00:26:48.390
Shlomo Sher: why can’t you just grab a type of nose
281
00:26:48.430 –> 00:26:55.229
Shlomo Sher: for for these monsters. Let’s say.
282
00:26:55.970 –> 00:27:03.530
Dom Ford: I think in general, yeah, this this idea of how human, like the monster is, is a good one in particular. I think the face is probably really important here.
283
00:27:05.290 –> 00:27:18.309
Dom Ford: like a very common way to on the flip side, a very common way to make something monstrous or to dehumanize it. Right is to obscure the face like even in even in like a call of duty where
284
00:27:18.330 –> 00:27:20.379
Dom Ford: they are humans. They’re not kind of
285
00:27:20.680 –> 00:27:33.599
Dom Ford: late discursivized as monsters as such, but they all kind of have obscured faces and masks on, while your teammates will have no helmets on, because they’re idiots, but you want you to see their face or something
286
00:27:33.670 –> 00:27:36.950
Dom Ford: right, and I think
287
00:27:37.170 –> 00:27:38.170
Dom Ford: so. Then
288
00:27:38.300 –> 00:27:44.299
Dom Ford: I think then, when a when a game kind of or when any kind of media right does show a face that’s kind of important
289
00:27:46.090 –> 00:27:51.109
Dom Ford: and monstrous faces can again go back to that kind of category crisis where they can.
290
00:27:51.300 –> 00:27:56.480
Dom Ford: whether, if they seem too close to human face, then that can be really unsettling and really disturbing.
291
00:27:56.570 –> 00:27:58.360
Dom Ford: And I think
292
00:27:58.730 –> 00:28:01.199
Dom Ford: if you use racial stereotypes to do that.
293
00:28:01.280 –> 00:28:06.530
Dom Ford: particularly in in a fantasy setting. So if you’re in a fantasy setting where you
294
00:28:08.140 –> 00:28:09.970
Dom Ford: ostensibly
295
00:28:10.020 –> 00:28:16.569
Dom Ford: sort of hooked noses have no reason to exist right, maybe, or they they do exist. But
296
00:28:17.170 –> 00:28:22.240
Dom Ford: you know there, there’s no reason for a whole kind of a a group of people to have that this.
297
00:28:22.960 –> 00:28:31.620
Dom Ford: and but then you do make that happen for one specific group, and that group is all evil or money grabbing, or something like that. Right? That’s
298
00:28:31.920 –> 00:28:36.929
Dom Ford: that’s going to be quite problematic. This is where the where the physical attribute
299
00:28:36.960 –> 00:28:38.989
aligns with some sort of
300
00:28:39.790 –> 00:28:40.530
trope.
301
00:28:41.100 –> 00:28:43.149
Dom Ford: It’s just that these people in real
302
00:28:44.740 –> 00:28:45.350
and I
303
00:28:49.640 –> 00:28:51.099
of these people right?
304
00:28:51.850 –> 00:28:53.940
Shlomo Sher: So it’s an influence of these things right.
305
00:28:54.600 –> 00:29:01.729
Shlomo Sher: and it makes perfect sense that when you get this kind of confluence that you would recognize that.
306
00:29:02.040 –> 00:29:06.220
Shlomo Sher: or it should recognize that. Look, this is clearly problematic.
307
00:29:06.370 –> 00:29:09.500
Shlomo Sher: right? It’s when it’s it’s
308
00:29:09.620 –> 00:29:15.230
Shlomo Sher: right, and and you’re just switch, and all you do to do is switch to another. Let’s say nose, type, or
309
00:29:15.260 –> 00:29:23.220
Shlomo Sher: you know other characteristics that are not associated with it and within offensive trope.
310
00:29:32.580 –> 00:29:34.129
Shlomo Sher: Then this is happening a lot.
311
00:29:34.240 –> 00:29:34.880
Yeah.
312
00:29:38.030 –> 00:29:41.460
Shlomo Sher: you you take X group or within the world
313
00:29:41.510 –> 00:29:43.329
if Hi: yeah.
314
00:29:43.890 –> 00:29:53.119
Shlomo Sher: So so we’re getting a lot of a lot of lag just out of curios. So we keep. We keep getting you laggy out of curiosity, and
315
00:29:54.740 –> 00:30:10.379
Shlomo Sher: i’m just curious if there’s anything you could do. For example, I switch from my home network to my 5G network when we when we start recording, do you have anything like that? Otherwise we’ll keep going. I mean, we’ll we’ll I mean I’m i’m on ethernet. So this is
316
00:30:10.390 –> 00:30:23.510
Shlomo Sher: stronger connection as I can get. I could try resetting the root of it. That’s that’s all I could do. I think
317
00:30:23.530 –> 00:30:29.680
Shlomo Sher: so. Okay. So Don, let me let me with the next question. Then again, we’ll we’ll just we’ll just we’ll just keep going with this. Okay.
318
00:30:29.870 –> 00:30:31.250
Dom Ford: Yeah.
319
00:30:31.580 –> 00:30:33.170
Shlomo Sher: all right. So
320
00:30:33.290 –> 00:30:38.789
Shlomo Sher: you know, I was also thinking about caricatures that you know Aren’t really about the
321
00:30:38.840 –> 00:30:52.880
Shlomo Sher: let’s say the the facial features or anything like that, but they’re more like symbols. Address activities that we relate to some culture. So you talked about like the let’s say the scimitars in the desert. I think that was that was a that was a good example.
322
00:30:54.230 –> 00:31:02.150
Shlomo Sher: You know I was a I was at a Tiki party recently. Is there tick? Do you guys do tiki in in Denmark?
323
00:31:02.810 –> 00:31:21.879
Dom Ford: I don’t I mean No, I’ve never been to a Tiki party here. I I i’m sure it’s happened. But you know I I was. I was at a ticket party, and a friend of mine was complaining about the cultural appropriation that Ticky is, and whether Tiki is a really offensive, you know. So
324
00:31:21.890 –> 00:31:33.219
Shlomo Sher: we we already have these things going on in in in real life, right? I mean, for those of you who don’t know Tiki is kind of like a Polynesian fantasy that was invented in La
325
00:31:33.290 –> 00:31:37.930
Shlomo Sher: about the South Pacific, and you know they serve.
326
00:31:38.000 –> 00:31:44.270
Shlomo Sher: You know, drinks that we associate now with the South Pacific, and to have a kind of a
327
00:31:44.390 –> 00:32:04.110
Shlomo Sher: pan South Pacific, Polynesian kind of feel to them. But you know, some Pacific islanders essentially claim that this is a form of cultural appropriation. That is a offensive. I i’m just kinda curious. Is there kind of monster oriented cultural appropriation. Or
328
00:32:04.120 –> 00:32:05.960
again, when you’re
329
00:32:06.380 –> 00:32:12.619
Shlomo Sher: where you’re looking for those cultural symbols, and you’re using them somehow in monster.
330
00:32:13.190 –> 00:32:15.480
Dom Ford: I think what i’d say is.
331
00:32:17.400 –> 00:32:30.429
Dom Ford: if in the construction of the the monster, right? So you want to take a group of humans or other creatures, and you want to make the monstrous cause you want to imply that evil, and and that they need to be destroyed, or something. If.
332
00:32:30.770 –> 00:32:34.030
Dom Ford: to make that construction work, you’re relying on
333
00:32:34.080 –> 00:32:35.580
Dom Ford: these already
334
00:32:35.800 –> 00:32:38.859
Dom Ford: negatively associated images in
335
00:32:39.240 –> 00:32:56.239
Dom Ford: from the real world. Then I think that’s that’s gonna be problematic where it’s like. You rely on the player believing that scimitars have some kind of connection with Muslims with evil, something like along those lines. Right? So if if you have the chain of symbols like that which leads to
336
00:32:56.780 –> 00:32:58.930
Dom Ford: the construction of the monster.
337
00:33:00.430 –> 00:33:04.189
Dom Ford: Then I then I would kind of say, that’s where you need to.
338
00:33:05.090 –> 00:33:10.039
Dom Ford: Yeah, that’s the that’s where it kind of gets pretty sketchy. I think Pretty Dicey, I think about
339
00:33:10.490 –> 00:33:12.659
Dom Ford: cultural appropriation in and of itself
340
00:33:13.310 –> 00:33:21.579
Dom Ford: with the monster, I mean, you can think of plenty examples of when different symbols from different cultures are used in the construction of a monster.
341
00:33:22.220 –> 00:33:23.690
Dom Ford: I think it kind of.
342
00:33:24.340 –> 00:33:28.650
Dom Ford: I don’t know. I’m not really one to be talking about this as like a white British guy. But
343
00:33:29.210 –> 00:33:37.119
Dom Ford: I think I I think it would be just back to that first point of if you’re using these already negative stereotypes in order to
344
00:33:37.420 –> 00:33:42.859
Dom Ford: make the monster monstrous. Not necessarily. If it’s like. Incidentally, so. Does that make sense?
345
00:33:43.620 –> 00:33:50.789
Shlomo Sher: Well, there’s there’s, let’s say the situation where you know under a situation where you’re being negligent about it
346
00:33:50.820 –> 00:33:58.009
Shlomo Sher: right and clearly the one where you know it’s offensive. But you use it anyway, or very problematic
347
00:33:58.040 –> 00:34:03.240
Shlomo Sher: right.
348
00:34:03.450 –> 00:34:22.599
Shlomo Sher: you know. Maybe you should know, and I put them, maybe because the question of negligence is, you might not have had any idea that this is actually representative of a particular culture or anything like that. But you know, in situations where you should have known, it seems that you will be held accountable, or you should be held accountable, you know, to some degree.
349
00:34:26.739 –> 00:34:29.909
Dom Ford: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s this this whole economy of symbols, and
350
00:34:30.210 –> 00:34:34.759
Dom Ford: you might not necessarily know where where you’ve got certain associations from right, right?
351
00:34:35.110 –> 00:34:36.000
Shlomo Sher: Right? Right?
352
00:34:36.210 –> 00:34:39.400
Dom Ford: But that doesn’t mean you’re kind of off the hook.
353
00:34:39.790 –> 00:34:56.720
Shlomo Sher: Okay, what about sex? So you know, sexist character, You know it’s easy to start with race and sex right because there are things that we often, you know. Mind you, I mean, there are things that often have been turned into monstrous things.
354
00:34:57.160 –> 00:34:57.810
Shlomo Sher: and
355
00:34:57.940 –> 00:35:10.150
Shlomo Sher: there might be the easiest other ring that there is to do right. But can can you think of a sex as caricature as well. We have kind of a, you know. Sexism, you know, put into our monsters.
356
00:35:11.070 –> 00:35:23.020
Dom Ford: Yeah, totally. There’s you should definitely read the work of Sarah Stang feel familiar with her. She her her her Phd. Dissertation was on the monstrous feminine in in games.
357
00:35:23.090 –> 00:35:24.410
Dom Ford: So this is.
358
00:35:30.180 –> 00:35:35.149
Dom Ford: It’s very much her back. But it’s a monstrous family in general which comes from film theory. It’s
359
00:35:35.200 –> 00:35:48.580
Dom Ford: there are these: If you take the trio with my mother made in a crone. Right. These are 3 of the big stereotypes of these Sexist monster depictions where they are. I would describe them as kind of excessive in
360
00:35:48.760 –> 00:35:56.810
Dom Ford: some of the ways that women are viewed so excessive in their reproductive abilities, or inabilities.
361
00:35:57.160 –> 00:35:58.080
Dom Ford: or
362
00:35:58.180 –> 00:36:03.960
Dom Ford: excessive in their sexuality. Like the kind of suck you burst the seductress kind of thing on the siren.
363
00:36:04.050 –> 00:36:12.290
Dom Ford: or you have, like the the the hag, where the aging and the kind of grotesqueness of aging, or, you know, supposing Protestants of aging is
364
00:36:12.320 –> 00:36:24.300
Dom Ford: very much hammed up in for the moment, so I think, like some great examples, is like this. There’s a pretty direct one in in the which are 3, where you have the the 3, the 3 Crones, I think they’re called.
365
00:36:25.670 –> 00:36:28.479
Dom Ford: and they kind of start as
366
00:36:29.080 –> 00:36:35.849
Dom Ford: you see them in a tapestry, talking to you as these kind of 3 beautiful naked young women.
367
00:36:35.970 –> 00:36:40.479
Dom Ford: and then, when they kind of reveal their true forms, they are these, you know.
368
00:36:40.550 –> 00:36:45.450
Dom Ford: old, wrinkled, large, bulbous
369
00:36:45.510 –> 00:36:48.339
Dom Ford: kind of creatures who who attack you.
370
00:36:49.300 –> 00:36:54.230
Dom Ford: And so it’s it’s because Sorry cool
371
00:36:54.440 –> 00:37:00.840
Shlomo Sher: all right, and i’m assuming that’s that’s the the monstrousness comes from there, disgusting, old and old. This
372
00:37:00.980 –> 00:37:06.470
Dom Ford: exactly it it’s taking kind of what are already these fears and anxieties in society, right? These
373
00:37:06.500 –> 00:37:12.660
Dom Ford: fears of women getting old, and therefore no longer to.
374
00:37:12.840 –> 00:37:22.829
Dom Ford: Or all these fears of women using their sexual power to manipulate people and all those things, though those already existing anxieties.
375
00:37:23.190 –> 00:37:28.050
Dom Ford: obviously not exactly well-founded. But those existing anxieties then get kind of
376
00:37:28.130 –> 00:37:33.080
Dom Ford: exaggerated and They find a depiction in the monsters that we make
377
00:37:33.220 –> 00:37:34.090
Yeah, it’s interesting
378
00:37:35.700 –> 00:37:37.289
of depictions of
379
00:37:37.530 –> 00:37:38.270
monstrously.
380
00:37:39.070 –> 00:37:39.660
and I
381
00:37:40.700 –> 00:37:42.609
it’s hard to find it’s hard to think of those
382
00:37:43.380 –> 00:37:44.029
I can think of
383
00:37:44.430 –> 00:37:45.069
of these
384
00:37:45.590 –> 00:37:53.809
depictions of
385
00:37:53.930 –> 00:38:02.340
Dom Ford: They probably Yes, yeah. But I mean there, there’s something disturbing, or there’s something that society does not like about older women
386
00:38:02.930 –> 00:38:04.060
Dom Ford: in that sense.
387
00:38:04.810 –> 00:38:09.529
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, you know, I actually you got me with the second one, the the mother part.
388
00:38:09.740 –> 00:38:14.349
Shlomo Sher: the so this is the birthing ability
389
00:38:14.510 –> 00:38:16.759
Shlomo Sher: is used to become monstrous.
390
00:38:17.110 –> 00:38:20.689
Dom Ford: Yeah, I mean, if you think of examples where.
391
00:38:22.570 –> 00:38:44.670
Dom Ford: for some reason, i’m blanking on examples, the only one I can think of is from a a like a niche Danish. But basically if you think of these examples where there’s some mother figure, maybe even an like a normal quote, unquote looking mother. But who gives birth to some demon or to some, or you have like alien as well. That’s that’ Be an example of that where it’s
392
00:38:44.760 –> 00:38:48.380
Dom Ford: anxiety surrounding, or or rather
393
00:38:49.010 –> 00:38:56.610
Dom Ford: monstrosity, takes root or takes its center or orbits around the idea of reproduction in the womb and stuff like that.
394
00:38:56.930 –> 00:38:58.129
Grindle’s Mother.
395
00:38:58.440 –> 00:39:00.870
Dom Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Good example. Yes, exactly.
396
00:39:02.140 –> 00:39:03.669
There’s there’s also tons of
397
00:39:03.870 –> 00:39:04.429
video game.
398
00:39:04.660 –> 00:39:05.410
mother
399
00:39:05.440 –> 00:39:07.509
Dom Ford: monsters Who?
400
00:39:07.710 –> 00:39:10.529
Dom Ford: Yes.
401
00:39:11.240 –> 00:39:17.760
Shlomo Sher: yeah, that that’s why I was thinking the spawning of the monsters right and or desponding. And then the ultimate loyalty
402
00:39:17.960 –> 00:39:20.600
Shlomo Sher: of the monster is is to them.
403
00:39:21.250 –> 00:39:27.040
Dom Ford: Yeah, yeah, I I think it’s that kind of caricature, or just anything that surrounds birthing. Right?
404
00:39:27.950 –> 00:39:32.489
Shlomo Sher: I I I was also thinking with the sexist characters of the game. Katherine.
405
00:39:32.800 –> 00:39:37.780
Shlomo Sher: if you guys
406
00:39:38.050 –> 00:39:40.289
Shlomo Sher: 12 years ago, or something like that.
407
00:39:40.320 –> 00:39:46.340
Shlomo Sher: and they’re essentially, I think the guy’s girlfriend would attack him in his dreams.
408
00:39:46.450 –> 00:40:00.680
Shlomo Sher: But you know i’m gonna i’m gonna skip it. I’ll cut this out so you guys don’t don’t remember that one or that one hit alright, so we got. We got some racist concerns. We got some sexist concerns.
409
00:40:01.710 –> 00:40:19.799
Shlomo Sher: Is there anything a master can do? Let’s say an ability or practice. So now we’re this is less about maybe representation, but more about kind of abilities that we should consider beyond the pale even for a monster in a video game context, like something that is, and notice it doesn’t need to be
410
00:40:20.200 –> 00:40:30.110
Shlomo Sher: to evil. Necessarily, this just needs to be something about an action or practice that itself would would be wrong for the monster to do.
411
00:40:32.220 –> 00:40:35.510
Dom Ford: Yeah, I mean, i’m struggling on this because I don’t. Really.
412
00:40:40.270 –> 00:40:44.779
Dom Ford: I think it’s going to be the super boring answer of that it to so I mean, I think you could say
413
00:40:46.070 –> 00:40:48.390
Dom Ford: I mean, I can’t even think of of an action that
414
00:40:48.860 –> 00:40:53.650
Dom Ford: that should just be straight up, prohibited to be depicted in games.
415
00:40:53.710 –> 00:40:57.560
Dom Ford: But if there were such a thing, I don’t think it would matter
416
00:40:57.610 –> 00:40:59.210
Dom Ford: whether it was a monster or not
417
00:41:00.820 –> 00:41:03.750
Dom Ford: like, for example, if we were going to say like a Nazi salute.
418
00:41:04.260 –> 00:41:07.220
Dom Ford: you know. Obviously you don’t do that in real life
419
00:41:07.990 –> 00:41:09.470
Dom Ford: you probably.
420
00:41:09.610 –> 00:41:20.549
Dom Ford: But the thing is, you can think of examples where it happens in games, and it’s because you’re fighting against Nazis or something like that. And so I don’t know if there’s any action in itself that would be
421
00:41:20.720 –> 00:41:23.959
Dom Ford: impermissible or or or immoral.
422
00:41:24.160 –> 00:41:29.419
Dom Ford: But I was kind of thinking about this idea of transgression. There’s a great book by
423
00:41:29.470 –> 00:41:32.410
Dom Ford: Toro Mortensen and and Christine Johnson
424
00:41:32.610 –> 00:41:41.669
Dom Ford: about yeah, just transgression in games and all the different angles of that. So games transgressing our boundaries, us translating games, boundaries, and and
425
00:41:41.850 –> 00:41:44.280
Dom Ford: and so it definitely does happen where
426
00:41:44.910 –> 00:41:48.330
Dom Ford: a game in general, but also monsters within them.
427
00:41:48.660 –> 00:41:51.439
Dom Ford: you know, in some way transgress our boundaries. You could
428
00:41:51.790 –> 00:41:56.060
Dom Ford: maybe most kind of obviously you could think of monsters which
429
00:41:56.110 –> 00:42:10.719
Dom Ford: do something out of the out of the seeming bounds of the game. So when when a game starts editing your files or something like that, and that can that can feel like a bit of a transgression against you, yeah, there are some. I mean, there’s I think it’s becoming increasingly popular, because it’s it’s it’s a
430
00:42:10.810 –> 00:42:22.649
Dom Ford: especially the first time it happens to you. It’s a big shock. What you like about the game can just just go out into my computer and it it seems to like be exceeding the boundaries of the game right to to kind of dovetail that in.
431
00:42:24.940 –> 00:42:29.179
Dom Ford: So I mean that that’s where that kind of led me. But i’m not sure
432
00:42:29.770 –> 00:42:33.440
Dom Ford: that there would be any practice or ability as such. Right
433
00:42:34.070 –> 00:42:35.390
I I was thinking about.
434
00:42:40.310 –> 00:42:41.160
We’re talking about what
435
00:42:41.490 –> 00:42:46.850
and but monstrous monstrous men, this monstrously sexual myth.
436
00:42:48.010 –> 00:42:49.600
and how that is depicted
437
00:42:49.740 –> 00:42:50.719
it frequently.
438
00:42:50.990 –> 00:42:53.229
whatever it is, into pornography.
439
00:42:53.960 –> 00:42:57.879
Dom Ford: So we’re we can. It’s, and it’s sort of interesting that
440
00:42:58.100 –> 00:43:01.589
we seem to be able to create monstrously sexual women.
441
00:43:02.620 –> 00:43:04.509
and have that in just like
442
00:43:05.440 –> 00:43:06.910
P. Z. 13.
443
00:43:07.090 –> 00:43:09.989
But as soon as men become monstrously sexual, then
444
00:43:11.350 –> 00:43:13.289
that’s that’s out of bounds
445
00:43:13.900 –> 00:43:19.270
Dom Ford: that’s interesting.
446
00:43:19.490 –> 00:43:21.609
Dom Ford: reflected in the fact that
447
00:43:22.130 –> 00:43:29.579
Dom Ford: I mean, I don’t know for sure. But you you would get like a different age rating when you show breasts on TV compared to when you show a penis right?
448
00:43:29.770 –> 00:43:30.479
Right?
449
00:43:31.080 –> 00:43:36.850
Shlomo Sher: Yeah. And it’s interesting. My, My, my cat is assaulting me at the moment
450
00:43:37.330 –> 00:43:41.240
Shlomo Sher: I I I I think there’s Also, the you know, with
451
00:43:41.380 –> 00:43:58.560
Shlomo Sher: hyper sexualized men, Sexual violence is something that you’re gonna get very quickly coming from, if you’re in the monster mode, and I think that’s going to be something that you’re rarely going to see from the hyper sexualized woman.
452
00:43:58.670 –> 00:44:14.719
Shlomo Sher: monster and and kind of these games. And maybe yeah, maybe that connotation. Those connotations lead more to to the the porn stuff. But yeah, that’s a that’s a really interesting point, Andy: yeah. In fact, it just occurred to me that the alien queen
453
00:44:14.880 –> 00:44:15.569
Shlomo Sher: right?
454
00:44:16.160 –> 00:44:18.449
She I mean, she basically goes
455
00:44:19.130 –> 00:44:20.060
people
456
00:44:20.670 –> 00:44:25.400
Shlomo Sher: right. She is depicted as a queen.
457
00:44:27.280 –> 00:44:31.259
Dom Ford: You would have a different tone if that was the alien king. Right? Yeah.
458
00:44:31.540 –> 00:44:46.329
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, she’s. Does she inseminate people? She uses she. She uses them as she plants eggs inside them, right. But yeah, I was actually thinking of things more like
459
00:44:47.150 –> 00:45:03.589
Shlomo Sher: things that monsters, let’s say, my alien look all right. So these these might be things that transgress the sort of things that generally we think maybe should not be in video games. So let’s say, you know the monster that eats kids
460
00:45:03.600 –> 00:45:07.209
Shlomo Sher: in a in a grotesque way, you know.
461
00:45:08.900 –> 00:45:24.959
Shlomo Sher: or you know the monster that consistently, consistently let’s say I don’t know, has disgusting diarrhea. I don’t know if that’s a you know. So we go scatological here right?
462
00:45:25.170 –> 00:45:38.329
Shlomo Sher: Or let’s say, you know monsters that like to eat humans in a particularly like you know where you hear them. Crunch the bones happily.
463
00:45:38.340 –> 00:45:53.980
Shlomo Sher: and you know, slurp up the you know. Slurp up the the limbs with with sauce. I I don’t know I’m i’m i’m putting anything anything I can out there. But you know, I mean, there’s it seems like there are a few things that
464
00:45:54.180 –> 00:46:09.020
Shlomo Sher: we don’t have in video games. Some of them are maybe go oriented. Some of them have to do with, You know. Children, obviously rape monsters are things that are going to, you know. You’re gonna have them in the Hentai games
465
00:46:09.250 –> 00:46:16.589
Shlomo Sher: right. But hand tight games are their own questionable thing that we will get to in a few episodes
466
00:46:16.620 –> 00:46:20.330
Dom Ford: as we got the the fairy folk
467
00:46:20.580 –> 00:46:21.139
so frequently
468
00:46:21.270 –> 00:46:21.830
picked it as
469
00:46:22.220 –> 00:46:23.399
beautiful and
470
00:46:23.600 –> 00:46:24.359
charming
471
00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:26.209
magical. But then.
472
00:46:26.720 –> 00:46:28.390
as as Shelmo was saying, they
473
00:46:28.810 –> 00:46:29.390
they
474
00:46:29.580 –> 00:46:31.429
catch you, and they will eat your children. And
475
00:46:32.240 –> 00:46:33.809
Dom Ford: hmm, Hmm.
476
00:46:33.990 –> 00:46:36.780
Dom Ford: I mean, I i’m wondering if that that then gets to
477
00:46:37.010 –> 00:46:42.699
Dom Ford: It’s going to depend on which ferry depiction you’re talking about, but that that gets to the
478
00:46:42.930 –> 00:46:47.059
Dom Ford: anxiety surrounding like young girls. For example, where
479
00:46:47.380 –> 00:46:57.799
Dom Ford: can also be seen, as you know, manipulative or deceptive, you know, using the the cute looks to to to get favors, or, you know, to get people to do things.
480
00:46:57.910 –> 00:47:03.180
Dom Ford: And then that’s kind of yeah turned into this baby eating thing. Yeah, I i’m not sure that that
481
00:47:03.210 –> 00:47:04.409
Dom Ford: that’s a good example.
482
00:47:05.800 –> 00:47:14.689
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, Andy, just in your history of games as been as there been a again where baby eating is part of the game just out of curiosity.
483
00:47:19.460 –> 00:47:22.980
I possibly in fable.
484
00:47:23.670 –> 00:47:28.299
because it tends to play with the the these these tables, these European fables.
485
00:47:28.450 –> 00:47:31.510
and Toton kinder. You know the the woman who
486
00:47:31.940 –> 00:47:33.230
the Gingerbread House
487
00:47:34.810 –> 00:47:35.529
about that.
488
00:47:36.870 –> 00:47:45.260
Dom Ford: I think there’s a kind of interesting on on those lines. There’s an interesting. It’s not eating them. But the it’s an interesting example in Dark Souls 3,
489
00:47:47.070 –> 00:47:49.859
Dom Ford: the boss called.
490
00:47:52.180 –> 00:47:55.670
Dom Ford: I just need to check this name because I should know. This
491
00:47:55.880 –> 00:47:58.740
Dom Ford: Yeah, the consumed king.
492
00:47:59.000 –> 00:48:05.219
Dom Ford: And this was like a a a rare kind of moment of, I guess censorship in in dark sales
493
00:48:06.440 –> 00:48:11.999
Dom Ford: or not censorship self-censorship, or you know, basically the it’s kind of this
494
00:48:12.450 –> 00:48:24.639
Dom Ford: dragon like smooth skinned creature doesn’t matter that much. But this boss who who fights you and is kind of whaling this almost like pathetic, pitiable kind of screeching.
495
00:48:24.970 –> 00:48:39.279
Dom Ford: and it’s kind of armies coiled such that he appears to be holding something. But there’s nothing there and then. So players kind of went digging around as they do, and data mining, and and found that the original model he was holding a baby
496
00:48:39.320 –> 00:48:42.590
Dom Ford: as he for you, and then halfway through the fight.
497
00:48:43.910 –> 00:49:00.850
Dom Ford: What he does in in the game that that we that we’d play is he smashes his fists down onto the ground. But of course, in the original version that would have been smashing the baby and kind of crushing it, and then going into a frenzy into the into the second phase. And so it’s kind of really interesting that they they took that out because it
498
00:49:01.670 –> 00:49:10.259
Dom Ford: I mean the one, since it kind of still works, because then this is like this, this the consumed king. It’s like this this kind of crazy king who thinks he is a kid, but actually doesn’t.
499
00:49:10.290 –> 00:49:13.759
Dom Ford: But it has this really transgressive
500
00:49:14.100 –> 00:49:19.400
Dom Ford: yeah depiction in the in the original one, I think that that could be an interesting example.
501
00:49:20.190 –> 00:49:34.690
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, I was thinking of something like that, though now, as you were talking about, I was imagining him, and taking Byes out of the baby is needed to, you know, to follow up right. He didn’t didn’t do that. But that would have been that would have been transgressive for sure.
502
00:49:35.090 –> 00:49:38.739
And actually that. And this made me think of like the way that children
503
00:49:38.910 –> 00:49:40.169
babies
504
00:49:40.460 –> 00:49:42.589
like. Frequently we we. We have seen
505
00:49:42.760 –> 00:49:44.389
baby monsters
506
00:49:44.460 –> 00:49:45.490
quite free
507
00:49:47.200 –> 00:49:49.339
in bio shock
508
00:49:49.600 –> 00:49:50.270
or in
509
00:49:52.380 –> 00:49:55.030
monster, but it’s definitely a strange creature.
510
00:49:55.060 –> 00:49:56.020
and
511
00:50:00.330 –> 00:50:04.830
I’m going to mind Block the name. There was just a couple of years ago, big game where you spend your time with
512
00:50:05.790 –> 00:50:08.290
the wilderness with this baby in a tank.
513
00:50:09.150 –> 00:50:12.000
Best friending
514
00:50:12.120 –> 00:50:12.950
that’s stranding
515
00:50:14.280 –> 00:50:17.229
Dom Ford: the baby monsters. What’s what’s going on
516
00:50:17.340 –> 00:50:18.060
there?
517
00:50:19.550 –> 00:50:21.550
Dom Ford: Yeah.
518
00:50:22.330 –> 00:50:28.549
Shlomo Sher: I I mean isn’t that as a bunch of ankles. You could approach that from it. Sorry. Yeah, go, go go ahead. I mean, yeah, I was. I was
519
00:50:28.750 –> 00:50:31.119
Shlomo Sher: sorry I said, Go ahead and i’m gonna start talking
520
00:50:31.560 –> 00:50:50.039
Shlomo Sher: very nice. Sorry. There you go. I I was. I was thinking about how you know babies are strange to begin with, right? I mean they’re you know. They’re not quite us, you know they are to be us. You, you know. There’s some philosophers who believe that babies are still not people.
521
00:50:50.250 –> 00:51:06.399
Shlomo Sher: you know, because they don’t have the cognitive capacities of people. They don’t have self awareness. You don’t get that till you’re like 18 months, or something like that, you know. So there’s something sort of still alien this about them, and if you give them power.
522
00:51:06.540 –> 00:51:10.790
Shlomo Sher: you know you could see how you know they could become
523
00:51:11.140 –> 00:51:16.330
Shlomo Sher: monsters that speak to some sort of, you know, primal fear inside us.
524
00:51:16.560 –> 00:51:20.190
Dom Ford: Yeah, I think that’s a great great example of like.
525
00:51:21.640 –> 00:51:38.389
Dom Ford: It’s very easy to make monsters of things that we can’t understand, and we can’t think like. So I think. Yeah. But he’s a great example where we have no idea how a baby really experiences the world, even though we all this kind of this uncannyiness where we all were a baby. But we can’t remember being a baby, and then we see a baby, and
526
00:51:38.680 –> 00:51:45.629
Dom Ford: it seems human, but doesn’t seem to understand the world in a way that we can recognize, and, you know, does everything differently.
527
00:51:46.780 –> 00:51:50.169
Dom Ford: And I think, yeah, I think you’re right. That that kind of gets to this. Some anxiety about
528
00:51:50.440 –> 00:51:55.740
Dom Ford: the baby is is to be human, but we can’t really can’t understand it.
529
00:51:56.420 –> 00:51:59.229
Shlomo Sher: The there’s also the I mean.
530
00:51:59.370 –> 00:52:01.080
Shlomo Sher: When you have a baby
531
00:52:01.140 –> 00:52:08.179
Shlomo Sher: it’s like the thing you are concerned about the most, and maybe one of the things you could be concerned about is a transformation
532
00:52:08.530 –> 00:52:14.370
Shlomo Sher: into something other. And but you know it’s really interesting. It’s like when you, when you think about the
533
00:52:14.590 –> 00:52:27.770
Shlomo Sher: you know, when we think about monsters sometimes, the easiest way to to think about them as the most foreign thing that we can think of. But sometimes I would think it would be kind of you take the things that are most sacred to us
534
00:52:27.850 –> 00:52:38.310
Shlomo Sher: that we love the most that we care about the most, and you distort them right. You have them kind of turn bad from the inside that somehow.
535
00:52:38.490 –> 00:52:41.809
Shlomo Sher: and that’s Stephen. That’s Stephen King’s motto
536
00:52:42.250 –> 00:52:46.190
Dom Ford: for all of his horror stories is, he says, I take something that
537
00:52:46.250 –> 00:52:46.899
is otherwise
538
00:52:46.960 –> 00:52:48.520
is perfectly safe.
539
00:52:48.850 –> 00:52:50.600
Shlomo Sher: Yeah.
540
00:52:51.340 –> 00:52:52.570
And I make that scary.
541
00:52:53.840 –> 00:52:59.109
Dom Ford: Yeah, yeah, it trades on your expectations, right? But also your fears. Yeah, exactly what you say Like your
542
00:52:59.180 –> 00:53:05.029
Dom Ford: you’re worried about how the baby will turn out. You’re worried about the baby’s safety. It can’t take care of itself.
543
00:53:05.160 –> 00:53:13.489
Dom Ford: And all those kind of points of anxiety are are yeah points where you can kind of inject, some, some monstrosity, some fear, some terror. Right?
544
00:53:16.650 –> 00:53:19.869
Shlomo Sher: Let’s okay. So let’s let’s let’s move on to
545
00:53:20.190 –> 00:53:24.020
Shlomo Sher: you know. Speaking about of babies.
546
00:53:24.310 –> 00:53:30.099
Shlomo Sher: you know babies are kind of in some sense, in that, in between
547
00:53:30.460 –> 00:53:32.069
Shlomo Sher: animal and human
548
00:53:32.400 –> 00:53:36.910
Shlomo Sher: right. I mean, they’re human, but you know animals and and and and people
549
00:53:37.140 –> 00:53:53.479
Shlomo Sher: in that right? They they don’t quite have our ability to communicate. Yet right there, there’s a lot of things I want to think about the the animals aspect of of monsters right? A lot of monsters are simply kind of exaggerated animals right?
550
00:53:53.490 –> 00:54:01.009
Shlomo Sher: And then there’s monsters that are have animal features right to show that they are not like us.
551
00:54:02.180 –> 00:54:09.490
Shlomo Sher: Do the Does any of this raise questions about the way we end up representing animals right?
552
00:54:09.670 –> 00:54:11.940
Shlomo Sher: Othering animals in in general?
553
00:54:12.890 –> 00:54:17.240
Dom Ford: Hmm. I think I mean, what immediately came to mind
554
00:54:17.730 –> 00:54:29.749
Dom Ford: was a jaws, and the damage that jaws has done to the reputation of sharks. Right? I think there’s this. Really. Yeah, I I think there’s this quite dangerous
555
00:54:29.960 –> 00:54:36.939
Dom Ford: aspect to to representing yeah monsters as animals or animals, as monsters or with animal features, that
556
00:54:37.370 –> 00:54:41.509
Dom Ford: yeah, you associate the animal itself with with monstrosity, and that
557
00:54:51.620 –> 00:54:56.840
Shlomo Sher: every time you not like that, and they that can be pretty bad. Actually, I mean, sharks have really suffered from?
558
00:54:58.430 –> 00:54:59.779
I’m: Sure.
559
00:55:00.150 –> 00:55:01.649
Yeah. For sure.
560
00:55:01.970 –> 00:55:02.970
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, yeah.
561
00:55:03.100 –> 00:55:05.349
trying to think of other other
562
00:55:05.930 –> 00:55:07.540
that have suffered similarly.
563
00:55:08.710 –> 00:55:09.680
Wolves.
564
00:55:10.330 –> 00:55:11.450
Shlomo Sher: wolves
565
00:55:12.880 –> 00:55:15.040
and then have been demonized. Right?
566
00:55:16.010 –> 00:55:16.589
Yeah.
567
00:55:17.510 –> 00:55:19.099
we’re trying to bring them back.
568
00:55:21.020 –> 00:55:29.400
Shlomo Sher: Right? Right? Yeah, that’s a that’s a good point. Can you think of any video game monsters? I’m: just kind of that are purely video game monsters
569
00:55:32.100 –> 00:55:35.890
and video games. We just tend to trade in the same, the same sort of
570
00:55:36.630 –> 00:55:37.750
same sort of true.
571
00:55:41.130 –> 00:55:41.839
Shlomo Sher: right?
572
00:55:47.190 –> 00:55:47.990
Me?
573
00:55:48.370 –> 00:55:50.950
Dom Ford: Yeah, I think that’s right. I think that’s right. We.
574
00:55:51.070 –> 00:55:51.990
yeah.
575
00:56:02.370 –> 00:56:05.230
Dom Ford: you know, still operating in that same like economy as symbols. Right?
576
00:56:07.010 –> 00:56:07.799
Shlomo Sher: Yeah.
577
00:56:08.000 –> 00:56:14.379
Shlomo Sher: yeah, that that that that that that sounds really right, that but yeah, i’m thinking about. I’m also thinking about things like tusks.
578
00:56:15.350 –> 00:56:17.219
Shlomo Sher: you know, right
579
00:56:18.270 –> 00:56:20.399
creatures and monsters that have
580
00:56:22.010 –> 00:56:28.099
Shlomo Sher: right. Right. So especially, let’s say, bore attributes are really common, right?
581
00:56:28.220 –> 00:56:35.550
Shlomo Sher: And or let’s say orcs orcs might have these all right or insect insect like
582
00:56:36.040 –> 00:56:39.570
Dom Ford: right? Yeah, I mean it’s always. It’s always the features of
583
00:56:39.910 –> 00:56:45.409
Dom Ford: sorry. Yeah, it’s always the features of animals that we are already a bit scared of from
584
00:56:45.530 –> 00:56:59.669
Dom Ford: There’s not like you don’t make a monster more scary by like putting kidneys on it, or something like that. Right? You, you! You take things that are already scary, like, you know. Yeah. Venom from from spiders or something or
585
00:57:00.360 –> 00:57:13.689
Dom Ford: yeah, or tusks like you say so I again, I think that that’s mostly about reflecting our anxieties. And and yeah, where it gets problematic is where that then reflects back on the animal itself. And it kind of is this
586
00:57:13.990 –> 00:57:18.480
Dom Ford: self-fulfilling prophecy? Almost all this like, yeah, this feedback loop. Rather.
587
00:57:18.910 –> 00:57:27.100
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, You know, I’m thinking no one should. You know if you’re listening and you’re thinking about making monsters don’t make anything with these
588
00:57:27.130 –> 00:57:32.740
Shlomo Sher: we really need these these days. So this is make more games where bees are the heroes
589
00:57:32.950 –> 00:57:33.689
Shlomo Sher: right?
590
00:57:37.030 –> 00:57:38.520
Shlomo Sher: All right.
591
00:57:39.040 –> 00:57:55.470
Shlomo Sher: So okay, so let me move on I i’m. I’m impressed that we’re able to do this. I have a by the way, I have a I have a new potential program to try editing on, and i’m dying to try it on this episode, because I don’t know. I don’t know if you know, there’s been very long periods where you’ve been lagging.
592
00:57:56.370 –> 00:58:08.569
Dom Ford: Yeah, it’s it’s. And it’s kind of strange, because I can I? I can hear you the whole time. So I kind of don’t know what I’m coming at that, and it’s yeah, Sorry I I I don’t know if it’s my connection or what? But it happens, You know it’s annoying. Yeah.
593
00:58:08.580 –> 00:58:23.270
Shlomo Sher: it will end up fine it will that it definitely will, May. Well, I sorry for the extra editing work. No, no worries, and I think we’re kind of. I think we’re close also at at this point. Right? Okay. So I only have 2 more questions for you, I mean.
594
00:58:23.570 –> 00:58:28.449
unless Andy, you end up having something, and then, just you know, slip it in, or
595
00:58:28.640 –> 00:58:35.459
Shlomo Sher: all right. So in horror, games, muscles might be used specifically to create a sense of fear or anxiety in the player.
596
00:58:35.530 –> 00:58:47.950
Shlomo Sher: Can you think of any situation where that might be done in a way that might cross the moral boundaries such as cultural appropriation? Or you know, I talked about cultural appropriation early, really, but
597
00:58:48.320 –> 00:58:52.010
Shlomo Sher: but maybe kind of focus on the sense of fear or anxiety.
598
00:58:52.120 –> 00:59:00.959
Shlomo Sher: Right? Are there some monsters that touch our fears or create anxiety in some ways that you think really kind of go beyond the pale.
599
00:59:02.050 –> 00:59:11.329
Dom Ford: Yeah, I don’t know about beyond the pale. But I mean all. All monsters, I I think, are manifestations of our already existing Anxiety and fears right.
600
00:59:11.570 –> 00:59:13.499
Dom Ford: I think.
601
00:59:14.810 –> 00:59:17.869
Dom Ford: when it can become beyond the pale. It’s it’s it’s always about
602
00:59:17.930 –> 00:59:19.299
Dom Ford: monsters.
603
00:59:19.360 –> 00:59:21.599
Dom Ford: Oh, always come from somewhere.
604
00:59:23.260 –> 00:59:24.580
Dom Ford: So if you kind of
605
00:59:24.720 –> 00:59:30.109
Dom Ford: remember what I mentioned earlier with like Philip Cole and the the kind of monstrous conception where it’s like, there’s a
606
00:59:30.430 –> 00:59:36.379
Dom Ford: the monstrosity there kind of comes from from within. But you can also
607
00:59:36.460 –> 00:59:42.489
Dom Ford: think about examples where monsters come from from without. So like this portal to hell. Kind of idea.
608
00:59:42.660 –> 00:59:45.789
Dom Ford: I think you can have these kind of examples where
609
00:59:46.500 –> 00:59:49.550
Dom Ford: a monster is said to come from a certain
610
00:59:49.840 –> 00:59:55.050
Dom Ford: place, or culture, or people, or something, and it’s said to be an outgrowth of them.
611
00:59:55.070 –> 00:59:56.990
Dom Ford: or there, specifically.
612
00:59:58.820 –> 01:00:05.719
Dom Ford: as some kind of manifestation of their evilness. Right? I think that’s where it maybe goes. Yeah, morally beyond
613
01:00:18.430 –> 01:00:21.879
Dom Ford: the pale in that sense. But obviously it’s like
614
01:00:21.940 –> 01:00:27.110
Dom Ford: Once, as I mentioned, it’s difficult to sit here and like put a limit on it. You know I don’t know. I don’t know what you think.
615
01:00:29.000 –> 01:00:32.039
I think I think you said it sort of earlier that.
616
01:00:32.070 –> 01:00:32.650
or when you were.
617
01:00:33.330 –> 01:00:34.870
And I think that that’s sort of a broader
618
01:00:35.670 –> 01:00:36.299
about
619
01:00:37.430 –> 01:00:39.020
anything that
620
01:00:39.360 –> 01:00:49.319
that sort of makes these tropes, that these these things that we fear and reflects them back on some person or people
621
01:00:49.610 –> 01:00:51.419
to make us hear them more.
622
01:00:52.370 –> 01:00:55.759
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, you know it’s it’s interesting. I was thinking right now about
623
01:00:56.060 –> 01:01:10.389
Shlomo Sher: a game that focuses on with the monsters engage in something that might be like the immigration issues that both Europe and the United States are very concerned with right now.
624
01:01:10.510 –> 01:01:13.950
Shlomo Sher: right where there is a quote, unquote invasion.
625
01:01:14.220 –> 01:01:21.180
Shlomo Sher: right, and the invasion is made in monstrous lights that can be connected
626
01:01:21.230 –> 01:01:26.720
Shlomo Sher: to the current political situation. Right, you know. Notice that’s
627
01:01:26.730 –> 01:01:55.060
Shlomo Sher: you know. That would often go with things like racial stereotyping, because a lot of times the other ring there come of immigration comes in in those terms, but it not might not be right. It might be more politically oriented or nationalistically oriented, and then ethically oriented, but it amounts to a very kind of similar thing. Right? You’re taking a group of people, and you’re using our anxieties about
628
01:01:55.070 –> 01:01:57.609
Shlomo Sher: them to
629
01:01:57.670 –> 01:02:11.109
Shlomo Sher: show us those people as monsters, and you know, potentially conflict the 2. Yeah, I was thinking of of of stuff like that, though I have a hard time, you know, picking out exact and analogs.
630
01:02:11.120 –> 01:02:18.229
Dom Ford: I’ve got a I mean, I’ve got a good example for you on games. Oh, great! Okay. Let’s do. It is, Have you played a ghost of Sushima?
631
01:02:18.530 –> 01:02:19.819
Shlomo Sher: No, no.
632
01:02:20.340 –> 01:02:26.350
Dom Ford: I’m sorry. It’s about the the Mongol invasion of Japan in the the the late thirteenth century
633
01:02:26.390 –> 01:02:31.659
Dom Ford: set on to which is like the island between Korea and Japan.
634
01:02:33.120 –> 01:02:46.540
Dom Ford: And yeah in it, as you’d expect the Mongols invade, and they kind of obliterate the initial samurai defense, and then occupy the island, and then you are one of the few remaining samurai, and you’ve got to kind of liberate the island.
635
01:02:46.620 –> 01:02:55.439
Dom Ford: and I’ve been working on a chapter on this, that on this example, actually with a colleague, you’re in bloom about
636
01:02:55.750 –> 01:02:56.669
Dom Ford: how
637
01:02:56.980 –> 01:02:59.470
Dom Ford: the Mongols are made monstrous
638
01:02:59.600 –> 01:03:02.569
Dom Ford: as invaders. And so
639
01:03:02.600 –> 01:03:18.439
Dom Ford: you start. You have this starting point, which is like a very real and pretty reasonable fear that you get invaded and occupied by this opposing political entity, and and the game doesn’t really say otherwise. Certainly not at the beginning. Right? It’s like, yeah, they’re an opposing political entity.
640
01:03:18.680 –> 01:03:19.839
Dom Ford: They’re pretty mean.
641
01:03:20.020 –> 01:03:32.039
Dom Ford: They primarily beat the samurai because they don’t care about their code of ethics. And so that’s kind of what that that’s kind of the first transgression, right? It’s like, oh, we’ll meet you honorably on the battlefield, and they’re like No, and just.
642
01:03:32.290 –> 01:03:37.559
Dom Ford: you know. Destroy them because of that. And so the you know the game is about this conflict between. How far can you
643
01:03:37.870 –> 01:03:39.790
Dom Ford: keep those
644
01:03:39.950 –> 01:03:45.739
Dom Ford: that code of honor while actually winning the the the the fight?
645
01:03:45.800 –> 01:03:46.419
Judgment right?
646
01:03:47.090 –> 01:03:49.319
Dom Ford: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
647
01:03:49.370 –> 01:03:50.209
But
648
01:03:50.280 –> 01:03:54.640
Dom Ford: what it, what it does throughout the game, in in some more subtle ways is, make
649
01:03:55.000 –> 01:04:13.510
Dom Ford: make the Mongols very monstrous. So for just as like in in in dexical symbols or in technical signs. The way that you find a Mongol camp is you. But is you follow a trail of rot and destruction and industry. So so you follow a path of corpses right littered, or, you know.
650
01:04:13.520 –> 01:04:28.580
Dom Ford: just like left on the left on the side of the road, and then you’ll find a Mongol camp. If you follow like a a beautiful little bird, it will take you to some part of the island that’s very nice, and then give you a good item. So you have this dichotomy, where you have, like the
651
01:04:29.080 –> 01:04:34.240
Dom Ford: where the samurai are become associated with nature and the island itself.
652
01:04:34.870 –> 01:04:42.399
Dom Ford: while the Mongols become associated with the the destruction and the defilement, and the and the disrespect of that nature.
653
01:04:42.730 –> 01:04:46.830
Dom Ford: So they’re not kind of explicitly made monstrous.
654
01:04:47.350 –> 01:04:48.049
Dom Ford: Well
655
01:04:48.300 –> 01:04:52.519
Dom Ford: that evil is shown to be kind of much deeper and much
656
01:04:52.650 –> 01:04:55.390
Dom Ford: much more heinous than just
657
01:04:55.600 –> 01:04:58.239
Dom Ford: a political, like an opposing political objective.
658
01:04:58.770 –> 01:05:06.580
Shlomo Sher: Right? I i’m. I’m thinking about some Chinese games about World War 2 that do some like that with the Japanese
659
01:05:07.270 –> 01:05:18.240
Shlomo Sher: right, where the Japanese are caricatures, as you know, as as ugly, as disgusting, as pure evil.
660
01:05:18.400 –> 01:05:34.009
Shlomo Sher: And yeah, that’s essentially so. Again, they’re not monsters, but they’re monsters right in in that same kind of sense that is meant to be. I mean, I. You know those are sometimes called propaganda games.
661
01:05:34.060 –> 01:05:43.620
Shlomo Sher: you know, that are are meant to get the Chinese player to feel a certain way about those evil Japanese, and of course we are talking about World War Ii, where
662
01:05:43.660 –> 01:06:03.510
Shlomo Sher: you know, I mean, there are very, very serious asrosities going on, you know, from the Japanese, but it’s something very different. Taking those what you might say are monstrous acts by the Japanese military as a whole, and turning the Japanese quote unquote race
663
01:06:03.520 –> 01:06:07.290
Shlomo Sher: into a race of monsters in in a video game.
664
01:06:07.510 –> 01:06:11.219
Dom Ford: Yeah, Exactly. Exactly. I think it’s. It’s that there’s always
665
01:06:26.460 –> 01:06:29.819
Dom Ford: It’s going to be like a spectrum like a a, a. A. Sl. A.
666
01:06:33.820 –> 01:06:44.689
Shlomo Sher: Okay, Dom is back. There was an answer there. Andy, there was. Yeah, there was. Yeah, it’s it’s in my local recording.
667
01:06:44.790 –> 01:06:48.089
and I think it was getting back to something you said very early on
668
01:06:49.000 –> 01:06:50.560
it was that
669
01:06:51.580 –> 01:06:54.250
depicting these depicting people as monsters
670
01:06:54.810 –> 01:06:56.040
not see them as people
671
01:06:56.680 –> 01:06:59.179
to not see that.
672
01:06:59.240 –> 01:07:03.330
Oh, in different situations this might be something that we would do.
673
01:07:04.360 –> 01:07:05.600
Or would this be something that
674
01:07:06.080 –> 01:07:08.569
what should we should that should this something be something that
675
01:07:08.920 –> 01:07:09.660
we should ever
676
01:07:09.690 –> 01:07:10.470
or even consider?
677
01:07:11.780 –> 01:07:24.740
Dom Ford: But we wouldn’t because we’re not monsters exactly, and it externalizes the problem. It’s it’s like the great analogy is like it like a doom kind of game. But there’s a portal to hell. Right. It’s like to deal with the monsters to do. You just have to
678
01:07:24.840 –> 01:07:44.739
Dom Ford: kill the monsters and close the portal. You don’t have to like change anything about the way your society works. The threat is completely external, and it’s the same in these kind of things. Where? Yeah, if we don’t have to consider that oh, maybe in different circumstances. We could have done what the Japanese did, or or you know we have treated other people in horrible ways, or anything like that.
679
01:07:44.980 –> 01:07:50.670
Dom Ford: You just have to expel the monstrous invader. And then you’re good, you you’re done.
680
01:07:50.930 –> 01:08:01.820
Shlomo Sher: and and this is why you know i’m thinking about the you know the a use of zombies and all that right. The monsters that we could just kill monsters we don’t need to think about, but also the least interesting kind of monsters there are
681
01:08:02.170 –> 01:08:03.319
Shlomo Sher: right
682
01:08:03.450 –> 01:08:04.460
is traditionally
683
01:08:05.550 –> 01:08:07.120
the fear of zombies is that it
684
01:08:07.450 –> 01:08:08.870
is us right?
685
01:08:09.180 –> 01:08:12.190
Shlomo Sher: Oh, I see that it could. Yeah, it could be us
686
01:08:12.430 –> 01:08:25.080
Dom Ford: right. Yeah, yeah, they kind of again. They’re on that boundary right between human and non-human, right? Right? Yeah. They they look human They kind of act human in some ways, but they don’t have our loved ones.
687
01:08:25.439 –> 01:08:28.600
Dom Ford: Yeah, yes, also that yeah, exactly. Exactly.
688
01:08:29.260 –> 01:08:35.290
Shlomo Sher: All right. So i’m going to ask you our our last questions, and and we we’ll we’ll we’ll wrap this up
689
01:08:35.330 –> 01:08:41.059
Shlomo Sher: all right. Dom: yeah. Super interesting. What? What do you want to live our listeners with?
690
01:08:41.970 –> 01:08:44.020
I think just the
691
01:08:44.160 –> 01:08:47.029
Dom Ford: just. To sum all this up that we’ve been talking about is that
692
01:08:47.270 –> 01:08:56.570
Dom Ford: monsters don’t exist essentially. There is no monster prior to to being labeled as a monster. It’s a completely discursive term, and
693
01:08:56.850 –> 01:09:06.349
Dom Ford: when we kind of label things when we categorize things, we’re doing so for a reason, and it’s that that reason is what i’m interested in when I’m when i’m analyzing monsters. So
694
01:09:06.470 –> 01:09:21.239
Dom Ford: you know we when we label someone a hero, we are making some kind of claim about their actions that they some way admirable or aspirational, or something right? And with monsters it’s exactly the same thing. It’s about establishing and policing boundaries. I think
695
01:09:21.340 –> 01:09:29.019
Dom Ford: so. It’s the boundary between good and bad, between human and non-human, between one of us and one of them or whatever.
696
01:09:29.330 –> 01:09:35.359
Dom Ford: So I think, by analyzing the monsters. You can tell a great deal about what the creators
697
01:09:35.420 –> 01:09:39.410
Dom Ford: of a given wants to think about the world, what their understanding of the world is
698
01:09:39.490 –> 01:09:45.639
Dom Ford: what their society is understanding of the world is. You know what is considered abhorrent. How do they define human?
699
01:09:45.910 –> 01:09:47.120
Dom Ford: So monsters
700
01:09:47.210 –> 01:09:59.289
Dom Ford: represent the anxieties that we have. When we try to put categories and labels on things, they they show us what we want to cast out of society, but are ultimately unable to
701
01:10:00.260 –> 01:10:01.570
Shlomo Sher: all right.
702
01:10:01.870 –> 01:10:12.629
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, Well said, all right, Damn well, all right down. Thanks for being with us. Good podcast guys. Gp: Thank you. Thank you so much.
703
01:10:12.990 –> 01:10:19.270
Shlomo Sher: Play nice Everybody! Yeah, all right, and we are done great
