[Release Date: November 8, 2022] Games have been getting more and more gamblified in recent years. This has occurred both within games and in terms of gambling on esports and game items out of the games themselves. What is gamblification in video games? How does it occur? Where can we expect it to lead? And should we be concerned about it in the way that we’re concerned as societies about traditional gambling?
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
00:06:44.930 –> 00:06:57.359
Shlomo Sher: All right. Welcome everybody. We’re here with Dr. Barker Johnson, Lecture and digital cultures in the Department of Media Communications at the University of Sydney. I think, mark you are our Austin Number Six baby,
54
00:06:57.370 –> 00:07:26.840
Shlomo Sher: because, you know, we apps. You guys are so overrepresented. Uh in our podcast. We we we love you guys. Uh his research focuses on uh game, live streaming and twitch uh twitch Tv esports, gamification and gamification, which is what we’re going to talk about uh today. Uh, he’s published in journals, including Information communication society uh new media society, Media culture, Society, convergence and games and culture outside. I can see man. He’s also an independent game designer, best known for the brok, like
55
00:07:26.890 –> 00:07:42.689
Shlomo Sher: ah ultimate ratio regum a regular Ah! He’s also a regular games, blogger, and very useful for this episode, a former professional online poker player, All right. A gambler through and through. All right, Mark Johnson, Welcome to the serve.
56
00:07:42.700 –> 00:07:44.660
Mark Johnson: It’s good to be here
57
00:07:45.120 –> 00:07:46.410
Shlomo Sher: all right so
58
00:07:46.440 –> 00:07:59.390
Shlomo Sher: to get right to it. We’re going to the bid our conversation into two parts, because, frankly, there’s just a lot to talk about. So first we’re going to talk about gamplification in video games, and then we’ll talk about gambling on video games.
59
00:07:59.400 –> 00:08:14.179
Shlomo Sher: So, but we’re talking about a gamblification of video games or in video games, I guess. Ah, what sort of mechanics are we talking about in terms of ah counting as as gamblified.
60
00:08:14.580 –> 00:08:44.180
Mark Johnson: Yeah, sure. So um, I think kind of. There’s quite a range of things that that count in this. I think the biggest one which people tend to talk about are loop boxes, which, of course, are kind of in-game items which they re all money for. And there’s some in-game items inside these boxes, and you don’t quite know what they are, and you pay real money, and then your publicly box, and then maybe you get something good, something useful, or something which is not that useful? Maybe the stuff you get based on which game you’re you’re playing might be a game
61
00:08:44.190 –> 00:09:01.409
Mark Johnson: type stuff or cosmetic stuff, or some mix of those things. I think that’s the kind of biggest one. I think it’s both, I think, the most common in terms of how much it’s used in how many people are playing games where it’s used in terms of how much public or poll
62
00:09:01.420 –> 00:09:06.330
Mark Johnson: interest It’s kind of captured or gathered. I think blue boxes come first,
63
00:09:06.350 –> 00:09:13.990
Mark Johnson: particularly in games like star Wars like styles, battlefront, and things of this sort, like blue boxes, got a lot of sort of
64
00:09:14.000 –> 00:09:34.880
Mark Johnson: public attention public a program. But But there’s also others like one is what’s called skin betting, or skin gambling, which is kind of waging on cosmetic appearances for things like your cow, your character, or your gun in again, or things of this sort.
65
00:09:34.890 –> 00:09:41.399
Shlomo Sher: This can can you explain down? So this is we’re not gambling,
66
00:09:41.840 –> 00:09:44.490
Shlomo Sher: are we? Is this something? This is what I
67
00:09:44.500 –> 00:10:04.160
Shlomo Sher: How’s how’s that? Supposed to work? Yeah, Like a lot of these skins are seen as having real world money, bal you. And on various kinds of sites and platforms and things that you can ah wage of these bet these in some cases on kind of classic casino games like Ah, we relax or things of that sort
68
00:10:04.170 –> 00:10:11.390
in other cases on kind of custom-made sort kind of game gambling, styles? Yeah.
69
00:10:11.400 –> 00:10:15.540
Shlomo Sher: So So how do they decide? How do they decide what they’re worth.
70
00:10:15.870 –> 00:10:36.190
Shlomo Sher: Ah, that’s a whole range of things that can come down to um kind of what the game devs. Think the lighting is worth what what players think it’s worth, how much it trades For how may, how many of the items exist, while kind of keep in mind like none like, none of these items exist in a right right? There are actual items.
71
00:10:36.200 –> 00:10:51.990
Mark Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. So so kind of a a mix of those things tends to shape kind of how much they are worth, how much they are valued at. And there’s kind of marketplaces on various sites, which kind of have these prices which go up and down change of time.
72
00:10:52.000 –> 00:10:53.490
Shlomo Sher: So let me.
73
00:10:53.500 –> 00:11:08.590
Shlomo Sher: Okay. It seems to me there’s a lot of ways this could work. But are we talking about. I’m going to take the skin. Let’s say the skin or the item that I have. Ah, you’re going to value it as being worth X, and then I can gamble with that and potentially get get more.
74
00:11:08.600 –> 00:11:09.490
Yeah, Yeah,
75
00:11:09.500 –> 00:11:10.090
yeah,
76
00:11:10.100 –> 00:11:12.350
Mark Johnson: yeah. And um, If
77
00:11:12.500 –> 00:11:25.389
Shlomo Sher: if one takes a look at these sorts of channels on Twitch or on Youtube. Some of these are very high-stakes. Um forms of play. Some of these skins are worth a lot of money, or are perceived as being
78
00:11:25.400 –> 00:11:34.189
Shlomo Sher: when you say a lot. What are we talking about? What’s the top operation? I should have looked up on tens of thousands of dollars. Right?
79
00:11:34.200 –> 00:11:35.490
Mark Johnson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
80
00:11:35.500 –> 00:11:46.599
Shlomo Sher: yeah, in the tens of thousands of dollars. And and again, So we’re talking about a roulette. Sorry. So we’re talking about kind of
81
00:11:46.630 –> 00:12:12.870
Shlomo Sher: Ah, but these are kind of ah, these are not part of the game. This is essentially something that would go on a twitch. Or are the games that actually incorporate that as a part Again, on the game. Some games have have kind of a closer integration between this and the game itself, while on others. It’s It’s far more kind of gray market type sites where this takes place.
82
00:12:12.880 –> 00:12:24.620
Mark Johnson: Um, it varies based on the game based on what platform that comes on, based on kind of what the games developers are trying to create or build. Um, Yes, so there’s There’s quite a range of these things.
83
00:12:24.630 –> 00:12:28.439
Shlomo Sher: Do you have an example you could reach, for where this is actually in a game
84
00:12:28.780 –> 00:12:34.069
mean one, that’s one that’s that’s kind of fairly
85
00:12:34.300 –> 00:12:53.540
Mark Johnson: fairly well integrated, I think would be, I think counterstrike is quite a good example. There’s a lot of kind of connection there of trading these things, at least, and buying these things, and the wagering site has some connections to the game itself,
86
00:12:53.550 –> 00:13:12.490
Mark Johnson: and I think that’s also quite quite a well-known one. As well, and there’s plenty of streams like, I say, on both tuition, you huge where you watch people like trying to get good skins, or trying to trade good skins, or trying to gamble good skins for other. And that kind of stuff. Yeah,
87
00:13:12.500 –> 00:13:20.680
A Ashcraft: we actually had a student a few years back who who hosted a counter-strike trading site.
88
00:13:20.770 –> 00:13:37.500
A Ashcraft: Okay, where it was basically he. He ran a server and had a special level that he had built that ran on the counterstrike engine and players could come there and basically trade virtual items on his site. And he got a cut
89
00:13:37.710 –> 00:14:02.680
Shlomo Sher: right, though. Notice right? I mean, you’re just setting a marketplace where people voluntarily trade. But because he was also building the the he was actually building the level that they were again because they were in a virtual level. That was basically a counter-strike world how he could actually build other things into that he could have, and he had, and maybe he has by now, I don’t know. Yeah, it built in some, you know, games
90
00:14:02.790 –> 00:14:09.490
Shlomo Sher: games that people play, and in the same age and the same on safe place you could. You could totally put it in there. Yeah,
91
00:14:09.500 –> 00:14:11.389
Shlomo Sher: yeah. But yeah, like, I think
92
00:14:11.400 –> 00:14:29.490
Mark Johnson: there’s a spectrum of these things from kind of loads, loads of games. Now you can spend money to buy a skin, and then in some portion of those games you you can trade those. And then in some portion of those games you can wage them as well. So it’s a kind of spectrum of these things.
93
00:14:29.500 –> 00:14:45.130
Shlomo Sher: All right, you know. It seems to me that there’s a kind of a big difference between the you know, trade them ah! Or even sell them Ah! And wage of them because wagering them obviously seems like you really need a set price for something.
94
00:14:45.140 –> 00:14:59.969
Shlomo Sher: So at the end of the day I mean, I I know you said. This is a combination of what people think are worth for it. Ah, what things are worth, what the house is worth! Are we wagering in the sense of? I I imagine you know, like Ah,
95
00:14:59.980 –> 00:15:17.480
Shlomo Sher: you know. Ah, we were Let’s say we’re playing a somehow on one on one counter strike. I know there’s no one on one counter strike, but you know. Let’s say we are playing like a one on one counter. Strike game right, and we’re both way during our our skin. Right? Our skins notice that’s an easy kind of way where you can say
96
00:15:17.490 –> 00:15:22.960
Shlomo Sher: there is voluntary agreement. Both people, you know, acknowledged that it’s worth it.
97
00:15:23.130 –> 00:15:29.240
Shlomo Sher: But how does it more specifically? How does it work? If i’m wagering my skin,
98
00:15:29.380 –> 00:15:32.280
Shlomo Sher: how do we know if there’s any sort of
99
00:15:32.490 –> 00:15:33.800
Shlomo Sher: there
100
00:15:33.990 –> 00:15:40.369
Shlomo Sher: accounting of what my skin is worth, and and he’s like smiling at me right now.
101
00:15:40.470 –> 00:15:58.490
Shlomo Sher: Well, right, i’m thinking Ah, a couple of things first off, you know It’s like we’ve seen this. We’ve seen this scene a million times in in in Westerns right there in the saloon. The the one guy’s run out of money, and you know he’s looking around for something that he can throw in the pod.
102
00:15:58.500 –> 00:16:03.459
A Ashcraft: Everybody else has to agree that it’s that it that that just covers the bet
103
00:16:04.430 –> 00:16:08.670
Shlomo Sher: right? Whatever it is, is that how it works? Oh, it doesn’t!
104
00:16:08.680 –> 00:16:11.350
Are you betting against other people or the house?
105
00:16:13.360 –> 00:16:17.290
Shlomo Sher: Oh, mark you’re you! You’re muted. Oh, sorry. Sorry.
106
00:16:17.300 –> 00:16:38.500
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, um. It depends on the site for a platform or so on um, I think, in in in terms of establishing this site. Um, I think, like most sites, will have links to some kind of marketplace, where where these prices kind of settle down on some level of the sites, like I say, will have some some kind of
107
00:16:38.510 –> 00:16:56.130
centralized sense of what each of these things is worth. But I do believe that different sites, or platforms, or places where you can do this will to some extent have different values for items, at least to some extent, and I think some of them
108
00:16:56.140 –> 00:17:07.459
kind of like a poker site, would have a kind of D. Would have a deposit boldness, or something like this, where, like every x thousand hands you play, you get ten bucks back that type of thing,
109
00:17:07.470 –> 00:17:20.060
Mark Johnson: I think some, I think some of the skin sites kind of promote themselves based on having slightly superior odds or slightly kind of kinder prices for the player.
110
00:17:20.359 –> 00:17:20.990
Shlomo Sher: Oh,
111
00:17:21.000 –> 00:17:22.870
Shlomo Sher: Okay, yeah, interesting.
112
00:17:22.880 –> 00:17:28.290
Shlomo Sher: Okay. So besides this, what? What other game elements would you count as gambling?
113
00:17:28.300 –> 00:17:39.460
Mark Johnson: Yeah. So um outside of blue boxes and skin betting? Um, You could also argue that to some extent things like battle passes are, of course I gamblified. So this would be games where, like
114
00:17:39.470 –> 00:17:56.540
Mark Johnson: um every match of a mobile you play, you get a license that at the end of it, if you pay for a battle pass which is, let’s, say, forty bucks a month or something. Then the items you get again reach match are then randomized to be better, on average than they would be if you had paid for the battlepass one,
115
00:17:56.550 –> 00:18:12.589
Mark Johnson: and that’s a kind of intriguing model, because since it’s sort of like, Imagine if you, if kind of playing a slot machine was free, and you did, and you you did have some chance of like big wins. But it was extremely small. But if you paid a monthly subscription to the slot machine.
116
00:18:12.600 –> 00:18:30.290
Shlomo Sher: Your odds will be better, something good. Get better. This is a kind of triggering model. I’m not kind of something we really see in traditional casinos or official gambling sites, right? Not a good comparison here. Um, that’s closer to the pay. Pay to win sort of situations. Right?
117
00:18:30.300 –> 00:18:30.790
A Ashcraft: Yeah,
118
00:18:30.800 –> 00:18:51.109
yeah, yeah, Some um. Some games have that sort of model um. Dan Joseph wrote a great paper on this um a few years back. Um, but battlecast capitalism and those who are watching. I encourage you to seek out that that that paper. Yeah. So that’s another model which is kind of right on that border of. Is this a gamble, if I think, is this not?
119
00:18:51.120 –> 00:19:08.729
I think it is, but it’s still. It’s on the lighter side in air quotes on this kind of gambling spectrum, but that exists too. And then there’s also things like E. Sports betting, which is in essence just normal sports betting, except for,
120
00:19:08.740 –> 00:19:11.900
and that’s quite quite a big thing now as well,
121
00:19:12.190 –> 00:19:19.820
Shlomo Sher: right. But by the time we by the time we get to that, though we’re no longer in games now we’re
122
00:19:19.830 –> 00:19:36.430
In fact, I don’t know if hand of any game where we will. Betting has been integrated into the game platform itself. Yet I might be wrong on that, but I can’t bring one to mind. I think most of that is on like Will Live Hill, or
123
00:19:36.440 –> 00:19:40.810
Shlomo Sher: you. By the way. First of all, Mark, I think you’ve lost most of your Mike
124
00:19:42.900 –> 00:19:55.649
Shlomo Sher: much, much better. So again, again, you can check just by seeing where those where those waves are right. That that kind of lets you know. So, by the way, do you know, I mean if there’s It’s interesting that you you point out that
125
00:19:55.660 –> 00:20:15.010
Shlomo Sher: you don’t know if any game has actually integrated actual gambling, I don’t think so, and I hope i’m not kind of embarrassing my self liable air here. But I can’t think of any sort of East water type game where you can place money on the outcomes of matches. And you do that, placing inside the game app itself.
126
00:20:15.020 –> 00:20:20.590
Mark Johnson: Yeah, like I don’t. I don’t think that that’s I don’t. I can’t think of any off hand, either.
127
00:20:20.600 –> 00:20:32.539
Shlomo Sher: Yeah. Is. Ah, by the way, I mean, would that fall under like legal? You know, legal restrictions on sports betting that would make things complicated.
128
00:20:32.550 –> 00:21:01.000
Shlomo Sher: I recently published a um a piece on this with Beta Barb, and else on you and Lb. Where we found that um Esports viewers are not particularly savvy when it comes to sports betting type of stuff which which which maybe not a huge shock, I think, seeing as they’re coming from my games background rather than a sports background. Um, But yeah, ah, both East Coast fans are not particularly savvy about how sports betting works, and how like lines are made, and all this kind of stuff,
129
00:21:01.010 –> 00:21:02.779
Shlomo Sher: right? And that’s
130
00:21:02.850 –> 00:21:14.689
Mark Johnson: so. Yes, but I don’t think most. Most most people are kind of fully aware of of what those factors are, and what those complications are, and how That’s why play out in practice? I think
131
00:21:14.700 –> 00:21:22.150
Shlomo Sher: now, is it the same people, though, that are that? I mean isn’t that sports betting that wants to bet on esports. But
132
00:21:22.160 –> 00:21:35.290
Shlomo Sher: I think probably not. I think in most cases Yeah, we we are seeing some traditional betting sites now doing a sports betting, but there’s also kind of e sports betting-specific betting websites. Now, as well.
133
00:21:35.300 –> 00:21:53.090
Shlomo Sher: Um some of those sit in that kind of gray area that’s some that some of the pokocytes did where, like your level of protection as a player is middling, and for those who are doing sound only i’m kind of waving my hand. Yes,
134
00:21:53.100 –> 00:21:54.090
Mark Johnson: you will see right now.
135
00:21:54.100 –> 00:22:10.100
Mark Johnson: Yeah, um. A few sit, sit, sit, sit in that kind of gray market space, I think. Um, but some seem to be more legit. A lot of these sites also are linked to like web three and crypto type stuff as well. Yeah, yeah,
136
00:22:10.350 –> 00:22:17.270
Shlomo Sher: yeah, you know, essentially my brother-in-law is essentially a sports gambler,
137
00:22:17.280 –> 00:22:38.649
Shlomo Sher: um, you know, and you know, and and and and poker player. But for the most part he does sports, gambling, and you know those, you know. It takes years to focus on the math involved. Yes, you know, and you know it’s interesting. I mean, you would think that um when it comes to games, everything is quantified,
138
00:22:38.660 –> 00:23:07.519
Shlomo Sher: and what gamblers really want is. You know the the really high-end ones that you know he does quite Well, he’s like a map. Genius, you know. Ah, that you think from Eastport you can get so much data that would give you exactly the kind of thing that sports gamblers would want absolutely absolutely. I mean um. I think that is the thing which kind of marks out things like poker. All the things like sports betting. If it’s your your job from just like thanks to all these sorts of things where
139
00:23:07.780 –> 00:23:22.570
Mark Johnson: there’s a lot of mathematics involved, There’s a lot of There’s a lot of psychology involved more on the poker side for that one than the sports betting side. But still um, yeah, where, as esports the volume of data points you’ve got. An esports
140
00:23:22.580 –> 00:23:51.529
Shlomo Sher: can be vastly beyond any physical sports that exists by far, because every every inch of data is stored in any. So I do think that changes things, and I I I don’t know whether they are people right now, making full-time living on these sports betting with that said, though, having spent three years of my life around poker players, I wouldn’t be shocked if there are people doing this already as a full time job
141
00:23:51.540 –> 00:24:06.239
Mark Johnson: um like. These sorts of people are very resourceful and and very faster. Jumping on the next thing, where where the next thing, where there’s some edge for for the thinking strategic.
142
00:24:06.250 –> 00:24:07.890
Um back to the yeah,
143
00:24:07.900 –> 00:24:08.390
Right?
144
00:24:08.400 –> 00:24:21.289
A Ashcraft: This is where this, where I tell a story about my dad teaching me how to gamble at the on horses, on horse racing, he said. You don’t go in the middle of the week,
145
00:24:21.510 –> 00:24:26.419
Shlomo Sher: because that’s the only people there are the professional gamblers.
146
00:24:26.490 –> 00:24:28.419
A Ashcraft: You go on the weekend,
147
00:24:29.090 –> 00:24:36.489
A Ashcraft: because you don’t have to be smarter than that. You don’t have to be. You don’t have to be smarter than the horses you just have to be smarter than most everybody around you,
148
00:24:36.500 –> 00:24:52.689
Shlomo Sher: right? And and when it comes to the East courts, as you said, most people are not necessarily, You know on that level not very savvy about these sorts of things. Right? Then, again, how many people better like on the Red Sox, or something right? Just you know. You bet you bet on your team. Right?
149
00:24:52.700 –> 00:24:53.290
Yeah, right?
150
00:24:53.300 –> 00:24:56.460
Mark Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, like um. I think sort of
151
00:24:56.900 –> 00:25:02.730
It’s one of those things where the same game can be played by people. But the
152
00:25:02.800 –> 00:25:07.540
Mark Johnson: what what those people are doing, and the chance of success can be very
153
00:25:07.680 –> 00:25:18.689
Mark Johnson: distinctive in the four or ninety nine percent let’s say, of people playing poker is the same as playing slots. In essence you will be a long-term loser across a large sample side.
154
00:25:18.700 –> 00:25:37.249
Mark Johnson: It doesn’t kind of matter a great deal what one is doing. One will be a kind of long to loser and like um in my own life, for instance. Um! I don’t think I’ve ever placed a bet on anything in my life outside of poker precisely because focus is a long-term skill, game and other things
155
00:25:37.260 –> 00:25:55.689
Mark Johnson: me or for everybody are not, and so that those sorts of aspects, I think, are important to keep in mind here, where I think he’s, sports, betting is going to appeal to far more people than can possibly make any money from it, as is the case for all gambling forms, and so on.
156
00:25:55.700 –> 00:26:06.489
Shlomo Sher: That’s right. When people go to the horse races on weekends, they just want to watch horses run around, and once in a while collect ten dollars, and it’s fun. Yeah, And it’s fun.
157
00:26:06.500 –> 00:26:07.250
Yeah,
158
00:26:07.260 –> 00:26:24.689
Shlomo Sher: Okay. So what about other things like, for example, are there games that are, you know, very similar to just slot machines where it’s a it’s a video game. But at the end of the day you’re gambling and it’s a thinly veiled video game, or there, I mean actually so on machine games.
159
00:26:24.700 –> 00:26:39.689
Shlomo Sher: Right? So so. So this is, I guess I guess what I’m asking is, you know how blurred have the lines become between traditional gaming and what we would call, you know, video games that have incorporated gambling elements like the slot machine.
160
00:26:39.700 –> 00:26:58.900
Mark Johnson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean um on the slots first. Yeah, there’s There’s now kind of slot machines which are based on games, and it’s hard to be. It’s hard to pin down. How appealing these are, I haven’t heard of these having a huge round of success in most part in most markets. Again, I think the demographic of someone
161
00:26:58.910 –> 00:27:18.119
Mark Johnson: goes to a Casino To sit down in front of slots for six hours is generally not the same demographic of someone who enjoys playing verses and evil in their playstation, anyway. Um, I think if for the bigger question, I think the kind of headline takeaway is, I think we have to split games into. What kinds of games are we talking about becoming
162
00:27:18.130 –> 00:27:30.190
Shlomo Sher: amplified in the sense of If we’re talking about blockbuster games or mobile games or indie games as three three sort of high-level groups, I think we
163
00:27:30.200 –> 00:27:43.310
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, What’s the difference? Yeah, in terms of blockbuster games. So like games with huge budgets, huge huge player bases made by huge dude studios, and so on in blockbuster game. Scamplification is becoming.
164
00:27:43.320 –> 00:27:53.909
Mark Johnson: It’s not ubiquitous yet, or anything close to it, but it’s becoming significant. I’d say in blockbuster games in mobile games, i’d say
165
00:27:53.920 –> 00:28:09.050
Mark Johnson: fairly close to blockbuster games against nowhere near ubiquitous but a lot of mobile games do use these kind of loop boxy-style methods, or kind of likely gamblified options where you pay money, and the outcome is not
166
00:28:09.060 –> 00:28:23.710
Mark Johnson: um but then indie games. It’s basically completely unknown. I would struggle to find any indie game ever released to be honest, which uses any kind of gambling style monetization method. And there’s there’s quite a strong kind of
167
00:28:23.720 –> 00:28:47.210
Mark Johnson: cultural push in the in the Indie games or kind of smaller in aircraft games, space away from these sorts of systems I think a lot of. I I I think a lot of people in that more kind of artistic creative space see this as being a very nasty way to monitorize games. They see this as being something which which which is or could be, exploitative,
168
00:28:47.220 –> 00:28:55.630
Mark Johnson: something which and they’re right in this something which inevitably transforms the design of the game you’re making as
169
00:28:55.640 –> 00:29:13.190
Shlomo Sher: if the game is trying to make money from getting people to to do micro-transactions or loop boxes and so on. That has to be a part of the game’s border design, and that then shapes what kind of game you are making towards a game which will encourage people to buy these things and to engage these things. So
170
00:29:13.210 –> 00:29:39.819
Mark Johnson: I think there’s an artistic creative aspect, and and there’s also a moral aspect in the Indie Games world, which has kept that away from the box, and so on, whereas for blockbuster companies and mobile game companies. Um, i’m not making a sweeping statement here, and I’m making no more judgments on anyone. But with that said These tend to be sectors, which are a little bit less concerned about artistic and creative
171
00:29:39.830 –> 00:29:41.970
Mark Johnson: um uh
172
00:29:41.980 –> 00:30:10.930
Mark Johnson: integrity or fulfillment, or um artistic practice than the indiegame space tends to be. And in the blockbuster, game, space and mobile game space in general, um profit and income are considered slightly higher priorities than in the Indie game. Space and artistry is going to a slightly less, and that’s on average, that’s a huge sweeping statement. But I mean, if we take a look at the average kind of highly successful blockbuster game and the aboriginal successful indie game,
173
00:30:10.940 –> 00:30:18.489
Shlomo Sher: there’s a pretty significant difference there in terms of the kind of artistry and the creativity being deployed there in most cases.
174
00:30:18.500 –> 00:30:32.449
Shlomo Sher: So so I was going to ask about, you know what was driving the you know, a gamblification of games. So obviously one answer: Here is money, right? So yeah, so is that it that these things are just on and on.
175
00:30:32.460 –> 00:30:50.349
Shlomo Sher: Ah, what do you mean by corporate culture here, or corporate culture seeking money? Is that the idea? Yeah, Yeah, I think in a paper I published on this a few years back, with Tom Block, called the Gambling Turn in game monetization. One thing we talked about there was kind of
176
00:30:50.360 –> 00:31:00.790
Mark Johnson: the difference between wanting to make games, but make enough money that you can do that as a job versus wanting to make money and wanting to do that via making games
177
00:31:00.800 –> 00:31:20.990
Shlomo Sher: right right. Those are two very different uh thought processes, and the former is far more prevalent in the Indie game space, the latter far more in the blockbuster and the mobile game space. And this is this is all this is all had to do with. How do you? How do you generate interest in the people who finance things.
178
00:31:21.000 –> 00:31:21.990
Mm-hmm
179
00:31:22.000 –> 00:31:26.089
Shlomo Sher: Yeah. Yeah. Because the people who finance things don’t care what you’re making? Not really.
180
00:31:26.100 –> 00:31:53.339
Mark Johnson: Yes, exactly. Exactly. If you’re in charge of a company, and ea’s bought you, and you employ two hundred people, ea isn’t particularly concerned If you make a a supremely creative artistic game which pushes the edge of what created B. They They couldn’t care less about that, of course. I mean It’s ca um! They care about making money for their Ceos, and so on. So and if you’re a startup
181
00:31:53.570 –> 00:31:56.430
A Ashcraft: company trying to get venture Capital!
182
00:31:56.440 –> 00:32:02.090
Mark Johnson: Yes, you know these these people want ten times they want. They want. They want you to turn around in three years.
183
00:32:02.100 –> 00:32:03.690
Mark Johnson: Yeah, ten times what they put in.
184
00:32:03.700 –> 00:32:25.500
Mark Johnson: I won’t name specific ones, but there’s a few known cases of companies who who would have people who were kind of Indie in air quotes. And then they got a lot of cash from these sort of sources, and then their their thought processes and their creative practice shifted quite noticeably after that happened as well. Yeah. So um in terms of
185
00:32:25.510 –> 00:32:49.780
Mark Johnson: for a culture um in blockbuster games and mobile games. In the last kind of ten years we we’ve seen an increasing corporatization of this of of these parts of the game sector in terms of the volume of money in terms of the focus on profit over creek, over creativity in terms of,
186
00:32:49.940 –> 00:32:52.080
and also yes, in terms of
187
00:32:52.090 –> 00:33:21.000
Mark Johnson: these parts of the game sector, becoming increasingly distinct industrial sectors with their own set of norms and practices, and Diane kind of dynamics and eternal politics. And these sorts of things. We’ve seen this all intensify in the last year, ten to fifteen years, and those shifts, coupled with the ability of online storefronts and Nfs and all these sorts of things
188
00:33:21.010 –> 00:33:33.970
Mark Johnson: to continually generate profit. Um! These these have have these happen at the same time, and have fed into each other. I think a really great example of this was
189
00:33:33.980 –> 00:34:03.949
Mark Johnson: when fallout seventy, six came out, and was an and and an unplayable piece of craft, which was in essence just built to get micro transactions flowing through. And so, um! There was an interview with I I Ah, Todd Howard, I think his name is Um, the Bethester um the dev, or Ceo, or whatever his his rank is. And when he was interviewed about Why, um! They’d gone with these sort of models he was talking about Sky,
190
00:34:03.960 –> 00:34:27.390
Mark Johnson: and he said, The issue with that is, we put this game out ten years back, and people love it, and people still play to make mods, and so on, and that’s all great. But and but he then said, But we know we we we no longer have any way to touch base with those players, and what he meant was, continue to extract money from them
191
00:34:27.400 –> 00:34:32.699
Mark Johnson: right. They’ve got plenty of ways to touch base with players like they can just look up
192
00:34:32.710 –> 00:34:58.189
Shlomo Sher: what people are doing in Skyrim, or people can tweet at them. Hey? I made a cool, modern scam. What he read is, we can no longer continue to extract value from these players, because Skyrim was one of purchase. You buy it, you own it, you then play it, and I think that quote. I wish the interview had kind of, said Todd. What exactly do you mean by this? This is a kind of intriguing quote, but I think that quote
193
00:34:58.430 –> 00:35:04.109
Mark Johnson: unintentionally is very, very telling about this kind of
194
00:35:04.120 –> 00:35:21.790
Mark Johnson: about how this sort of corporate language about engagement, or touching base with with players and so on. It all just masks what they really mean, which is just. We want to keep making money. We we want to keep players buying crap in general in our game spaces.
195
00:35:21.800 –> 00:35:48.810
Shlomo Sher: So so. So. So let me ask. So okay, Obviously, this is where micro transactions ah themselves are coming in. But you know, micro transaction is also and free to play also has benefits for gaming. And when i’m thinking, yeah for for gamers, right? And when I when I think of gambling, I mean right. You played online poker, right? Lots of people love to gamble every so often. Yes, although I would say the coke is different, because it’s
196
00:35:48.820 –> 00:35:54.589
Shlomo Sher: skill again. But I would say that. But do you think that there’s a distinction there,
197
00:35:54.600 –> 00:36:15.099
Shlomo Sher: though you know, uh my sister lives in Vegas. I go to Vegas uh all the time, and I see people, you know, playing slot machines all the time. Right? I mean, you know. I mean people, people. And again sports gambling. Most of it is like, you know, a hundred bucks on my team. Yeah, all right. Um, You really don’t want to make the difference between uh
198
00:36:15.110 –> 00:36:17.790
A Ashcraft: between gambling and problem gambling.
199
00:36:17.800 –> 00:36:24.919
Shlomo Sher: Can we be before we get there? Because I want to get there? Because I think it’s really important. But before we get there right
200
00:36:24.970 –> 00:36:41.089
Shlomo Sher: is this so companies found a way that they can make even more money if you attach let’s say micro-transaction to gambling, or if you add gambling elements. But are they the only ones that are getting something or Is this a new layer of fun that players also. Get.
201
00:36:41.100 –> 00:36:53.890
Mark Johnson: Oh, yeah, yeah, um, like i’m not a kind of anti-gambling person at all. I think for most people It’s a harmless hobby just like spending one hundred bucks on some other thing which you don’t get back. It’s
202
00:36:53.900 –> 00:37:13.279
Shlomo Sher: It’s spending money for some for some kind of experience. And that’s right. Um, yeah, I mean, I think I I don’t think we want to fall into that trap of treating anyone who’s who’s ever waited on anything as some kind of clueless Duke. I don’t think that’s a very good job,
203
00:37:13.290 –> 00:37:30.550
Mark Johnson: and I think it’s kind of patronizing and insulting to people, because most people know like i’m not going to make a full-time living from this. I don’t intend to make a full-time living from this I just enjoy watching sports and watching e sports or playing a game, and I don’t mind spending X money to do. Why, in this game, and that’s why
204
00:37:30.620 –> 00:37:54.540
Shlomo Sher: but um, yeah. So I don’t think we should downplay what some players are getting out of this and one of the arguments which is often articulated here is this idea that if a player is cash-rich and timepour, which is another way of saying, If they are an adult, then they should be allowed to advance in that game rather than playing that game. So if
205
00:37:54.740 –> 00:37:57.660
Mark Johnson: if the game might take
206
00:37:57.670 –> 00:38:15.510
Mark Johnson: forty hours for you to unlock every every, every every skin, or you can pay a bit of money to unlock those skins. Then the argument is, that’s a player and powering choice to make those options, and that argument is not completely nothing. But I think it overlooks
207
00:38:15.520 –> 00:38:34.130
Mark Johnson: a number of points. I think it overlooks a that these systems are in general like. I say you can’t design a game with with with micro transaction, or gambling or gambling, but in monetization methods without that shaping, how the game is built, as in these games are not kind of
208
00:38:34.350 –> 00:38:44.709
it’s not like you have a finished game, and then you add gamplified transactions on top of it. If that from the ground up, these games are built with these in mind. So
209
00:38:44.810 –> 00:39:04.630
Mark Johnson: um, if so, even if it does take forty hours to unlock X, or you can just by X. The developers made it so that it takes forty hours to unlock X, so that you think ah sod this. I’ll just pay some money to unlock X. So, although one level, this kind of time cash argument.
210
00:39:04.670 –> 00:39:17.440
A Ashcraft: I have some has something to it. I don’t think it has that much to it, because these games are built with the intention of of making the player think about things in terms of a time cash trade off
211
00:39:17.450 –> 00:39:24.989
Mark Johnson: also. Of course, a lot of these games are built to be extremely grindy in order to discourage players from from the
212
00:39:25.100 –> 00:39:43.400
Mark Johnson: in those hours, as if the point of playing the game is to enjoy playing the game. Surely you want to put in forty hours because it’s full, and you’re enjoying that that game. Whereas I think one might argue, and I would, if the player ever thinks I can’t be bothered to play this game for forty hours to get to the thing I want.
213
00:39:43.410 –> 00:39:50.590
Mark Johnson: Then you should think well. Does that maybe imply that the game is really not that worth playing, and maybe not that good to be worth that time investment on your part,
214
00:39:50.600 –> 00:40:06.759
Shlomo Sher: though the the notice right. So this is the argument about my You know these kinds of micro-transactions, a specific type of micro transactions in general But notice about, even if you’re like, Okay, you know, Fuck it, I i’m just going to get that thing. Do I get something extra like,
215
00:40:06.770 –> 00:40:13.620
Shlomo Sher: you know, getting the gamble for it or my force at this point to kind of I can’t forget it. I got a gamble for it.
216
00:40:13.630 –> 00:40:27.649
Mark Johnson: I think you are encouraged. A fourth, I think, would be relatively rare, though I do, though some games do definitely have items. One could only get through blue boxes and these sort of things, but I think encouraged without a doubt, but
217
00:40:27.660 –> 00:40:40.780
Mark Johnson: the extent on on the kind of optional encouraged forced spectrum. I think I I think, where some where where something falls on that is partly down to the games,
218
00:40:40.790 –> 00:41:00.659
Mark Johnson: but but but also, I think we must inevitably say, down to the player, also down to their psychology, down to how they think about time and money, and these sorts of trade offs. I think a different person in a different game will always fall on a different end of that spectrum.
219
00:41:01.520 –> 00:41:13.590
Shlomo Sher: Um to go back to what Andy said earlier about problematic handlers. Right gambling can be fun. But obviously gambling could also be dangerous. Right.
220
00:41:13.600 –> 00:41:31.009
Shlomo Sher: Ah, lots of people have serious concerns about the dangers of gambling. We have lots and lots of laws about gambling all over the world. This is a very, very heavily regulated field in most countries, and all of a sudden it’s in, you know, games which are
221
00:41:31.090 –> 00:41:47.129
Shlomo Sher: barely regulated in in any ways. Um, what are so rather than focused necessarily on the regulations. So we maybe should talk about that, too, whatever you think about that. But what are some of the dangers that might
222
00:41:47.140 –> 00:42:00.789
Shlomo Sher: ah come around for players if as games become more ah, ah! More! Ah gamblified and ah! Do you see the increased complication of video games as kind of duplicating the dangers you have in gambling.
223
00:42:00.800 –> 00:42:10.500
Mark Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I think the big kind of mole panic so far has been that young people would play these sort of games, and we began building within these games, and
224
00:42:10.540 –> 00:42:28.089
Mark Johnson: that’s definitely one which merits attention. I mean it’s way easier to buy a loop box in a mobile than it is to sign up to a poker sites like poker, or to sign up to a slot site and play slots. If if you are below the age of eighteen, it’s way easier to do the first of those than to the
225
00:42:28.100 –> 00:42:36.690
Shlomo Sher: what it Why is that, By the way, I mean what? What? What kind of So you know. Yeah, there only have to
226
00:42:36.700 –> 00:42:55.059
Shlomo Sher: verification. Yeah, Is there an age verification in focus sites? Ah, yeah, Ah, pokosites and sloth sites tend to be extremely strict from this, because they know they have to. Because, as you say, there’s a planets worth of laws on this um in back in my day. I think you just had to.
227
00:42:55.070 –> 00:43:16.390
Mark Johnson: I don’t remember what the age-old fish thing was maybe you just had to have a card, and the assumption was that you wouldn’t have a card unless you’re eighteen or over. But I think that there was something further. Maybe was a passport you had to load um to really. I mean, this was fourteen years ago. Now I don’t remember exactly how I proved I was eighteen. But I did in some way,
228
00:43:16.400 –> 00:43:40.260
Mark Johnson: whereas games don’t have any of that sort of stuff, and there’s a and there’s a bunch of reasons for that, in part, because games with gambling systems are quite new, so the legal framework for them, isn’t really in place, yet coupled with the fact that legislators are far more aware of online slot sites than lower games which have these sorts of systems combined with, of course,
229
00:43:40.270 –> 00:43:57.590
Mark Johnson: to be kind of hard and sin nickel about it. Games companies have no particular financial inclination to be strict on these things, and I realize that’s a very kind of cynical praise of what these companies are thinking, but all the evidence suggests that i’m not being kind of unfair to them.
230
00:43:57.600 –> 00:43:59.889
Mark Johnson: No, I think I think that’s pretty accurate.
231
00:43:59.900 –> 00:44:00.990
Yeah, Yeah,
232
00:44:01.000 –> 00:44:18.109
Mark Johnson: yeah. So I think a combination of those things means that it’s pretty easy if you’re below the age of eighteen. Well fairly um to buy a loop box for real money. It’s extremely hard to get onto a slot site over these sort of these sort of things. So
233
00:44:18.130 –> 00:44:47.299
Mark Johnson: So this, So this this concern about young people will get into gambling by doing these things it’s worth thinking about. I also think it’s overblown, though it’s overblown, because games are the kind of classic site of mal panic in the last fifty years, and this is not the first it won’t be the last without a doubt. Um! There’s There’s definitely some kind of echoes of the previous game, more game volcanics
234
00:44:47.310 –> 00:45:05.729
Mark Johnson: which we can see reflected in this one, so it’s a concern. It’s not a kind of cataclysmic world ending concern, as some people seem to be implying. But it’s definitely a concern and a question, and one which kind of makes us think about
235
00:45:05.740 –> 00:45:35.159
Mark Johnson: games about gameplay, about game designer about getting companies about game players, though. Um, I think another kind of aspect of this is in the watching of gambling on games rather than doing it. Onesel, Because, as we talk about like on Youtube and Twitter, so on, you can watch people who remove boxes or watch people who do skin betting websites and um. Often, of course, these people will be playing at higher stakes, whatever that means than the average player, as you can wash,
236
00:45:35.170 –> 00:45:36.429
people, for instance,
237
00:45:36.510 –> 00:45:49.729
Mark Johnson: who might be doing skin betting for hundreds of thousands of dollars rather than for hundreds full- and I think there’s also a question about who’s watching these Is that encouraging? Is that
238
00:45:49.740 –> 00:46:19.720
Shlomo Sher: um making these things seem exciting and thrilling and kind of because games, game, play in game, culture, especially for kind of celebrity players, is sort of public these days. I think that complicates matters as well beyond just players playing these things. I think players watching other players saying these things is also something Think about as it’s very hard. Yeah, to go and watch to like watch someone playing slots in in the real world. I mean, It’s very, very easy to go and watch someone
239
00:46:19.730 –> 00:46:21.089
who’s opening loop boxes
240
00:46:21.100 –> 00:46:22.370
right?
241
00:46:22.700 –> 00:46:23.490
Shlomo Sher: Right?
242
00:46:23.500 –> 00:46:25.290
A Ashcraft: Okay, yeah, it’s. It’s fascinating.
243
00:46:25.300 –> 00:46:37.189
Shlomo Sher: I never never thought about that at all. To be honest, Yeah, I I i’m I to get to grant to research that in the near future. So any gambling current uh bodies who are watching this. Keep me in mind, please.
244
00:46:37.200 –> 00:46:47.479
Shlomo Sher: Ah, you know, let me ask you because i’m i’m thinking about this kind of relationship between traditional gambling. And you know one thing about traditional gambling is that the odds are just,
245
00:46:47.670 –> 00:47:06.190
Shlomo Sher: You know the odds are known, I mean even you know. I mean, you know, even pretty remedial players of let’s say we’re playing roulette, you know, are aware of what the odds are. You know we have a kind of general idea of what Blackjack is going to be.
246
00:47:06.200 –> 00:47:18.810
Shlomo Sher: Po Poker is unusual there, right? And you know, slots, you know I you know sometimes it, but you know, even the with slots. There are, I think, laws about the
247
00:47:18.920 –> 00:47:25.390
Shlomo Sher: ratio of winter to lose that the slots have to be. Is there a dramatic difference.
248
00:47:25.400 –> 00:47:34.499
Shlomo Sher: Is there a dramatic difference between the kind of odds that you can get? Gambling, traditional gambling, and the kinds of odds you get in gaming?
249
00:47:34.810 –> 00:47:47.789
Mark Johnson: I think it depends on what exactly you’re doing in terms of the gaming, gambling stuff, like if you’re doing skin betting on a virtual room that wheel, then it’s things in a personal one. Assuming the site is fair, of course, which is
250
00:47:47.800 –> 00:47:48.889
A Ashcraft: the right to even mind
251
00:47:48.900 –> 00:47:49.390
A Ashcraft: right right?
252
00:47:49.400 –> 00:47:52.189
Shlomo Sher: Right? Where, as if you’re
253
00:47:52.200 –> 00:48:16.890
Shlomo Sher: I actually can. Can we go back to that? Assuming the site is fair right? Because if you’re doing it in an actual professional gambling site? Um, you, we have the odds to be fair. Um, and like a lot of sites, have very kind of complex verifications to some of these sort of things. Now, for for how the odds integrated for how their run. Some numbers are great, and so on.
254
00:48:16.900 –> 00:48:20.099
Shlomo Sher: I’m assuming you can’t. You can’t just do a roulette site
255
00:48:20.330 –> 00:48:29.300
Shlomo Sher: like again traditional gambling, Or let’s say, without some serious legal oversight. Or can you?
256
00:48:29.390 –> 00:48:32.390
Shlomo Sher: You can. But you might get in trouble.
257
00:48:32.400 –> 00:48:51.540
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah. So for the gaming, gambling sites. I mean a lot of these are still kind of great grade marketing type things now. So when you’re playing them, you are tacitly assuming or expecting, or hoping the degree of
258
00:48:51.550 –> 00:49:02.289
Mark Johnson: trust, or whatever we call it, on this site, is equivalent to. If I was playing on poker stars, or if I was playing, or whatever, or playing in real life.
259
00:49:02.300 –> 00:49:04.259
Yes, exactly exactly. And
260
00:49:04.320 –> 00:49:13.640
Mark Johnson: again, there’s always a sly being scale where, if you go to a massive Casino in Vegas, which has been established for one hundred years.
261
00:49:13.650 –> 00:49:35.199
Mark Johnson: You can be as confident as any human can be, which is not to say one hundred, but as confident as any human can be that every game is on the level, every game does what’s meant to do. Every spin plays out how it should the Dyson of loaded and all these sorts of things, And that’s actually not true.
262
00:49:35.960 –> 00:49:43.590
A Ashcraft: What do you mean? The well the casinos have to in aggregate pay out X amount. So
263
00:49:43.600 –> 00:49:44.889
Mark Johnson: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
264
00:49:44.900 –> 00:49:48.789
A Ashcraft: But they don’t have to pay out X amount for every machine.
265
00:49:48.800 –> 00:49:49.890
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah,
266
00:49:49.900 –> 00:50:02.379
Shlomo Sher: they can. They can hide their well-paying machines. Oh, yes, they’re early paying machines in in heavily traffic areas. I see I see. And this is common.
267
00:50:02.390 –> 00:50:04.409
Yes, yes, yes, Yes, dope.
268
00:50:04.600 –> 00:50:10.890
Even those machines would still, if audited, have to you a truthful accounting of how much they pay out. Yeah,
269
00:50:10.900 –> 00:50:11.990
Shlomo Sher: that’s right.
270
00:50:12.000 –> 00:50:14.790
Shlomo Sher: But so like, yeah, Yeah,
271
00:50:14.800 –> 00:50:22.489
Shlomo Sher: right? Yeah. Yeah. So loop boxes, I think, are the intriguing case of this, where, of course, in most cases they don’t give the odds in
272
00:50:22.500 –> 00:50:38.860
Mark Johnson: Right there. There was a lot of debate about this, of course, a few years back in the twenty, eighteen, twenty, nineteen, twenty, twenty is about like. Should they be giving out odds, and if so, does this make make people less likely to buy them, or less likely to buy them in a potentially addictive
273
00:50:38.870 –> 00:50:44.369
Shlomo Sher: mana? Was there not an agreement that was made on this that was supposed to be implemented?
274
00:50:44.380 –> 00:51:12.400
Shlomo Sher: Some countries did this. Um, I think China made a big push on this, I think some yeah being countries, maybe Belgium. The Netherlands made a big push on this. Um, I think one of them i’d have to go and check, which, I think, in my view, Belgium made it legally binding that that that every single loop box ever sold to play in that country must show the odds. I think it was delivered by not being Um. Yeah. So I think the jury is still out on what? On to on, to what extent those change things. But I think
275
00:51:12.440 –> 00:51:29.430
Mark Johnson: um, because I guess the question is, are the odds the main reason someone’s playing, and in most cases I’d say The answer is No, as you said, and the kind of if you’re playing this just for you, you enjoy watching your sports team. You want to best
276
00:51:29.440 –> 00:51:46.190
your books on them. That’s not a kind of rational mathematical assessment or will I make profit from this? It’s part of that culture to pass the fund it’s possible, whatever. So the idea that showing odds and loo boxes is crucial is kind of predicated on this tacit idea that
277
00:51:46.200 –> 00:51:50.990
when some when someone buys a loop box. It’s purely the odds which they are thinking about,
278
00:51:51.000 –> 00:51:54.389
and that’s probably not actually the case, I think,
279
00:51:54.400 –> 00:52:12.190
Shlomo Sher: but there still needs. There still seems to be a really big difference between those those two things right? If If i’m betting on my favorite East Board team right, it’s my team. It’s part of the fun of the match with the loop box. I’m. Specifically paying for it to get something right. I mean, Yeah,
280
00:52:12.200 –> 00:52:29.489
Shlomo Sher: you know, It’s like It’s not like the bed is a side. It is a you know, a you know, just a a side benefit of this. You know the enjoyment of the of the um the match. It’s more like the bet is what i’m trying to accomplish. I’m just i’m trying to win, so the odds seem a lot more.
281
00:52:29.500 –> 00:52:42.409
A Ashcraft: So here’s how I approach loop boxes as a player as a player. I approach a loop box as Oh, okay, i’m in in two ways. One is Ooh! A loot box. I wonder what I get,
282
00:52:44.300 –> 00:52:56.260
A Ashcraft: which is, You know I might get something cool. I might not get something cool. I might get something super common, and then the other way is, Oh, i’m trying to collect these things. I need to get this one.
283
00:52:56.620 –> 00:52:59.790
A Ashcraft: Here’s a loop box. What are my odds.
284
00:52:59.800 –> 00:53:17.790
Mark Johnson: Yeah, And in that case I need to know. I need to. I need to track this, And I would like to know. In the first case I don’t really care. But in the second case I really really care. I think that I think that there’s I think that’s right, but I think that there’s another aspect beyond this kind of
285
00:53:17.800 –> 00:53:32.149
yeah. Do I care? So I am. I Am I specifically trying to get a thing which is that which is the pleasure of the uncertainty and and the pleasure of the the kind of
286
00:53:32.160 –> 00:53:51.079
exciting aspects of doing the loop box by itself like um Ah! Five years back I put out a book called The Unpredictability of Gameplay, where I talked a lot about the kind of enjoyment of not knowing what’s going to happen in in a game, and part of this, I think, applies to bluetooth boxes. In that
287
00:53:51.090 –> 00:53:58.289
loo. Boxes are made to be very exciting to open bail. I’ve got a flashy graphics, and there’ll be sounds, and there’ll be explosions.
288
00:53:58.300 –> 00:54:04.690
Mark Johnson: That’s right, explodes, and things fly out. And so there’s all this sensory pleasure that you get as well.
289
00:54:04.700 –> 00:54:05.490
A Ashcraft: Yes,
290
00:54:05.500 –> 00:54:19.870
and that, I think, is an important aspect, because the box or the loop box type thing, whatever it might be, is presented as being kind of as being thrilling as being noteworthy. And there’s a certain amount of kind of
291
00:54:19.920 –> 00:54:28.290
dramatic tension between when you click open, and when you see what the items are that could be five or even ten seconds. But
292
00:54:28.300 –> 00:54:44.690
Shlomo Sher: yeah, there’s and and exciting tension there, and in turn, of course, blue boxes play off things. We are, you, Mike? We We’ve lost you. We’ve lost you.
293
00:54:44.700 –> 00:54:49.279
Shlomo Sher: Yeah. So you But you were in the middle. So you might want to backtrack. Yeah, yeah,
294
00:54:49.610 –> 00:54:53.440
Mark Johnson: i’ll leave second. So you So you so you can edit it back here.
295
00:54:53.450 –> 00:55:17.889
Mark Johnson: Yeah, um, where, as I think, it’s also worth keeping in mind that there’s. There’s also aspects of existing games which we also see in loop boxes like If you’re playing a non-loop lute, lute, box, Rpg: and you find a chest. You then maybe the contents of that chest are randomly selected, and you open it, and you get something so
296
00:55:17.900 –> 00:55:29.490
Mark Johnson: getting rewards where you don’t know what the reward is, prior irrespective of the real world financial part. That first part is just well known to gamers. It’s It’s just
297
00:55:29.500 –> 00:55:30.930
yeah, yeah. So
298
00:55:30.990 –> 00:56:00.779
Mark Johnson: blue boxes do do just do to some extent kind of play off and trade off that aspect. Also that this is something gamers are used to. We are used to acquiring some unknown set of items, and we are used to that acquisition being exciting, having some kind of tension to it, and combining those with these little with these little real money transactions is what makes something like We box is so successful.
299
00:56:00.790 –> 00:56:17.389
Mark Johnson: But I don’t think we can fully explain why to buy loop boxes with with just the I’m seeking I’m seeking an item, or i’m intrigued to see what happens. I think the third aspect of the pleasure of the opening itself, I think, is also something to keep in mind.
300
00:56:17.400 –> 00:56:21.509
A Ashcraft: Yeah, yeah, no. That’s a very good point in some ways. It’s like um
301
00:56:21.520 –> 00:56:43.749
Shlomo Sher: gotcha machines. Yeah, Yeah. So I don’t know if you it’s a It’s a term that came out of. I think Japanese arcades. But it’s basically you know, the capsule machines. We had them in our grocery stores growing up right you would you put a You put a corner in you turn the knob. It it provides a capsule. The capsule has right right, I mean, with different toys in it. Right?
302
00:56:43.760 –> 00:56:44.790
It’s that
303
00:56:44.800 –> 00:56:48.489
Shlomo Sher: so, and that, and we look at that. And we’re like. That’s perfect for kids,
304
00:56:48.500 –> 00:56:50.990
Shlomo Sher: sir, for a quarter
305
00:56:51.000 –> 00:57:12.210
Shlomo Sher: right for for. And it’s interesting how much like you know the more So when Ea said, There’s nothing wrong with these are surprise mechanics. People love surprises right. Ah, and and and what you’re saying is that there is some truth to that. But maybe it’s like the more money involved, the more we kind of got away the
306
00:57:12.220 –> 00:57:21.490
Shlomo Sher: benefit of that versus the potential downside. Exactly. I think kind of taken in a vacuum, and if we remove the absurd praising,
307
00:57:21.500 –> 00:57:31.019
Shlomo Sher: the the pure statement of surprise is enjoyable in games. That’s that’s true, without a doubt.
308
00:57:31.160 –> 00:57:32.520
Mark Johnson: But then,
309
00:57:32.570 –> 00:57:42.790
Shlomo Sher: when you have all these other design and financial aspects. Of course, that makes it a lot more complex than their very disingenuous statement about surprise mechanics. Yeah,
310
00:57:42.800 –> 00:57:52.409
Shlomo Sher: right? Right? Right and and and and to be fair. Those things we got out of the capsules for a quarter are not worth anything
311
00:57:52.470 –> 00:58:04.040
A Ashcraft: right. You couldn’t. I mean they’re not resellable. There’s no resell market for those things. They don’t have any value. The value is, it’s twenty five cents to open a capsule and see what you get,
312
00:58:04.050 –> 00:58:12.790
Shlomo Sher: you know, Kit, can I just say, you know, having I have a I have a nine-year-old right and you know when we go to arcades, and when you get those tickets and arcades,
313
00:58:12.800 –> 00:58:32.660
Shlomo Sher: you know, is that’s also a sort of gamblification, and I’ve noticed that arcades have become so much more focused on getting those tickets, which are, you know, and a lot of those, you know. There’s the big There’s a spin, the big wheel in the arcade and tons of just purely luck-based
314
00:58:32.670 –> 00:58:42.660
Shlomo Sher: where kids are betting, for you know, for for tickets and that’s become and even the skill games and the skill games at least are better. But at the end of the day you’re getting crap
315
00:58:42.670 –> 00:59:00.589
Shlomo Sher: all right. You’re You’re turning in your tickets for crap that you? But it feels good, and it hooks into that psychological part of you that makes you want to get as many tickets as possible and feel like you got something, even though you never. It just ends up being on the floor in the car left at home.
316
00:59:00.600 –> 00:59:02.080
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, Yeah. And
317
00:59:02.130 –> 00:59:03.429
Mark Johnson: yeah, sort of
318
00:59:03.550 –> 00:59:15.239
Shlomo Sher: I feel like all of this sort of sort of does, as you’re kind of saying need to be seen on this spectrum that some things are more gambling than others, something less, and
319
00:59:15.500 –> 00:59:37.330
Mark Johnson: for reasons of policy, we tend to make gambling into this one thing, where easy the something is, or isn’t, and then we, we we legislate on things based on that, and also just kind of humans in general, like to categorize things and to to kind of delineate things and to make
320
00:59:37.340 –> 00:59:45.550
Mark Johnson: typologies of things, because ambiguity or grayness, or kind of mid mid or kind of middle of the spectrum stuff,
321
00:59:45.670 –> 00:59:53.970
Shlomo Sher: it’s far more complex and far harder to deal with than clear black and white X and Y up and down things,
322
00:59:53.980 –> 01:00:21.580
Shlomo Sher: especially for laws. Yes, yes, exactly exactly where you think of gambling. Right? Is the ski ball machine.
323
01:00:21.590 –> 01:00:22.689
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, yeah,
324
01:00:22.700 –> 01:00:30.889
Shlomo Sher: Mark, let me. First of all, Andy, Where are we? Timeways? We’re We’re about we’re about five zero minutes through.
325
01:00:30.900 –> 01:00:44.290
Shlomo Sher: So if we’re about fifty fifty. Okay. Sorry When you said five zero. You threw me off all right. What’s that? Number fifteen? So I have one more question, and then the final question.
326
01:00:44.300 –> 01:00:52.850
Shlomo Sher: Ah, so mark um! By the way, I I didn’t have this on your on the on the questions before, but i’m sure you can
327
01:00:52.860 –> 01:00:54.660
Shlomo Sher: uh on Hartsfield.
328
01:00:54.670 –> 01:01:13.490
Shlomo Sher: Mark, Where do you? Where do you see this going? Ah, right! So we have this current trend, i’m assuming that Ah, this current trend. Ah appeared because it appeared when people figured out that it could be done right, and now that they figured out it could be done, where do you think we’re we’re going with it.
329
01:01:13.500 –> 01:01:17.589
Mark Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. So kind of we had this confluence of
330
01:01:17.600 –> 01:01:38.609
Mark Johnson: and corporate factors, design factors and technological factors which linked up to make all this stuff happen. And then we had the big backlash in in two thousand and eighteen, two thousand and twenty-ish, obviously in the last two years, I think people being a bit distracted by some other stuff. But we definitely had that backlash. And now
331
01:01:38.620 –> 01:01:53.320
Mark Johnson: now I think a lot of game developers are being farther shameless in their use of loop boxes and things of this sort, and some skin betting sites and so on, have been clamped down on down on a little bit, or have been regulated a bit
332
01:01:53.640 –> 01:02:01.780
Mark Johnson: terms of where it’s going. I think I think there’s a number of a number of aspects here. I think we can definitely,
333
01:02:01.790 –> 01:02:30.489
Shlomo Sher: confidently assert that it won’t be spreading into Indie games, and if i’m wrong about this, i’m happy to be on this. But I don’t think I am. I think we will continue to see that, and in the games is a huge part of games. I feel extremely confident in saying, these mechanics will basically never spread into the games. I think the the cultural and the creative voters against that are just so strong.
334
01:02:30.500 –> 01:02:42.850
Mark Johnson: Um, I think Every now and then we’ll see a struggling Indie company who transitions into these game types and starts doing something else. But I think that’s that’s that’s extremely rare,
335
01:02:42.920 –> 01:02:54.999
Mark Johnson: I think, in blockbuster mobile games. I think we will continue to see companies trying to innovate and find new ways to use these sorts of systems. I think loop boxes are still used, but I think they are,
336
01:02:55.030 –> 01:03:06.520
Mark Johnson: I think even the clueless ultra-rich freaks who run a lot of these games companies. I think even they now, when they’re done kind of sitting in their Scrooge Mc. Duck
337
01:03:06.530 –> 01:03:17.950
Mark Johnson: at the top of money. I think even they perceive, in so far as they make sense of any aspect of human life. I think even they perceive that
338
01:03:17.960 –> 01:03:28.769
Mark Johnson: loop boxes are seen as a bit, if be a bit dodgy now, and maybe we need to change how these are done, or or or maybe these, these these should be cosmetic only, or that type of thing.
339
01:03:28.900 –> 01:03:57.740
Shlomo Sher: But I think, in in things like battle passes we see, and like my work and other people’s workers talked about this, this, this kind of constant innovation, this constant change. Of what new methods can we find? What new methods can we find which are compelling to players? Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing is society issue. But ah! But techniques which are compelling to players techniques which are not yet illegal techniques which
340
01:03:57.750 –> 01:04:04.750
Mark Johnson: are kind of discursively or culturally considered acceptable, or at least not awful.
341
01:04:04.760 –> 01:04:21.489
And this kind of constant change, and these constant updates, I think that’s the big thing we should expect to see in the next ten years. All these new kinds of combinations and constellations of design and technological factors continue to keep extracting money through through
342
01:04:21.500 –> 01:04:35.909
Mark Johnson: through these kinds of gambling, or gambling, or semi-gam bullying methods while still trying to dodge. Yeah. Dodge legal constraints dodge cultural constraints. And So on I think that’s that’s the big thing we’ll see,
343
01:04:36.780 –> 01:04:47.410
Mark Johnson: I think. Also we’ll see. I think there must come a point where more legal attention will be paid. I don’t think we reach that yet. But it must happen at some point. I think
344
01:04:47.420 –> 01:04:59.350
i’m not sure when or why that will take place, because because the part of me thinks if it Hasn’t happened yet, with the absurd stuff that we’ve already see is then will it happen at all?
345
01:04:59.360 –> 01:05:18.190
Shlomo Sher: But I think it must. At some point. I think we we will see kind of a second wave of very strong legal attention at some point in the future. But I think that also comes down to. How shameless are these big games companies going to become? And
346
01:05:18.200 –> 01:05:18.990
Shlomo Sher: so
347
01:05:19.000 –> 01:05:38.120
Mark Johnson: I think, when they do something else in the near future which is just absolutely mind-bogglingly absurd. I think, when when that thing happens, what whatever that thing is, and I don’t know it and no one does yet. But when that thing happens, I think we’ll see a second wave of really strong attention
348
01:05:38.130 –> 01:05:41.650
Mark Johnson: being paid to these sorts of systems. And then,
349
01:05:42.230 –> 01:05:44.019
Mark Johnson: in terms of players,
350
01:05:44.130 –> 01:05:54.309
I think we will see more players becoming into the kind of becoming keen on these blurred lines on these kind of middle ground game and gambling stuff.
351
01:05:54.320 –> 01:06:02.050
Mark Johnson: But at the at the at the same time, in games like battlefront two there have been such strong backlashes as well from players.
352
01:06:02.820 –> 01:06:07.720
Mark Johnson: Yeah, I I think those are the are the three big headlines. I think
353
01:06:07.810 –> 01:06:12.940
Mark Johnson: these sort of methods will stay in blockbuster and mobile games and not transition into Indie games.
354
01:06:12.950 –> 01:06:29.080
Mark Johnson: These companies will increasingly try all these new models. We’ll be constantly, constantly changing, constantly trying to find new stuff. I think we will see a second wave of legal attention and interest, and I think players is the least easy to predict
355
01:06:29.090 –> 01:06:45.990
Mark Johnson: of these four factors. I think. Um, I think the jury’s kind of out on on the one hand loads of people engage with these, because if they didn’t, then they wouldn’t make money. On the other hand, loads of players hate these things with a passion. So where players are going on gaming, gambling, I think, is more complex and hard to say
356
01:06:46.000 –> 01:06:54.890
Shlomo Sher: right. It’s like hate these things with a passion, but we’ll do it anyway, because that’s the option we have somewhere. Yeah, the only game in town.
357
01:06:54.900 –> 01:06:55.990
Shlomo Sher: Exactly.
358
01:06:56.000 –> 01:06:59.059
Shlomo Sher: You know It’s interesting. Mark. By the way, our next episode is
359
01:06:59.070 –> 01:07:23.040
Shlomo Sher: going to be about is going to be with with Leon Nashau about essentially what he thinks is the failure of laws to work at all regulating loop boxes, you know. I feel like we’re well prepared now for that one. I’m very curious to see where that goes. All right. So
360
01:07:23.050 –> 01:07:28.219
Shlomo Sher: mark What do you want to leave people with? What’s a yeah? What do you want? P. To live people with?
361
01:07:28.350 –> 01:07:31.600
Mark Johnson: Yeah, I guess the final takeaway is
362
01:07:33.550 –> 01:07:39.120
Mark Johnson: Well, I guess there’s a few things. I think the first one is. All these things have to have
363
01:07:39.130 –> 01:08:08.819
Mark Johnson: have to be seen, like I say, as part of the spectrum. There is no kind of hard cut off between. This is a gambling thing. This is not. These things are complex and strange as well, and part of that is is because they are new, and they use new kind of design methods and new technologies. But part of it also is that that’s done on the part of these games. Companies who are who are trying to obfuscate and mass some of what’s going on here. So these things are complex. They aren’t simple,
364
01:08:08.830 –> 01:08:09.899
I think
365
01:08:09.950 –> 01:08:23.189
Mark Johnson: they are very. They. They merit a lot of attention to the specifics, and the kind of exact aspects of each thing or each one. So that’s that’s one point, I think.
366
01:08:23.590 –> 01:08:44.690
Shlomo Sher: All right. So I was. I was hoping, actually get you to do this in like a minute or two.
367
01:08:44.700 –> 01:08:48.179
Shlomo Sher: Yeah, sounds great. Um: In that case, let me think a second. Okay,
368
01:08:48.359 –> 01:08:52.820
Shlomo Sher: Because it was good. Yeah, Okay. But yeah, but we want to. We have. We want to capture it. Okay.
369
01:08:53.359 –> 01:09:22.390
Mark Johnson: So I think the main take away from this are that game. Gambling is a spectrum rather than a hard cut off. There’s a lot of complexity here, and a lot of diff, and a lot of different phenomena which we should be paying attention to. I think also, part of the takeaway is that a lot of this comes down to games companies and these broader corporate shifts in the kind of big money game sector to towards prof in making as an abs
370
01:09:22.399 –> 01:09:51.269
Mark Johnson: imperative above creative or artistic issues. And I think the final takeaway is that these things do merit our concern, but they are so new, and they are so rapidly changing that the full kind of level of how concerned we should be is bizarrely kind of not clear. Yet whether these are huge world changing shifts in games, in games and game we are seeing, taking place, or whether these might stay comparatively
371
01:09:51.279 –> 01:10:05.370
Mark Johnson: not not small, but not huge parts of gaming, whether they might stay kind of within a certain bracket of gaming and not go beyond that. That also might be true. It’s just very early days right now, and quite hard to tell on some.
372
01:10:05.860 –> 01:10:12.090
Shlomo Sher: All right, Mark Johnson. Thank you for joining us today. That was fantastic.
373
01:10:12.100 –> 01:10:13.990
Shlomo Sher: It’s been a pleasure
374
01:10:14.000 –> 01:10:18.689
Shlomo Sher: all right uh good podcast. Gp: Play nice. Everybody
