[Release Date: September 13, 2022] In esports, players trash talk, fans trash talk – even commentators trash talk! Sometimes trash talk is fun harmless banter, but other times is unsportsmanlike and shows disrespect for the game or other players. And, of course, trash talk can easily turn into harassment. What norms do esports have about trash talk and where should we draw the line between morally acceptable and unacceptable trash talk?
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: Right welcome everybody we’re here with a Sydney irwin Sydney is a PhD candidate at the school of health, medical and applied scientists at the central Queensland university she’s an aussie and you know we love our aussies I think you’re like our fifth aussie maybe.
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Shlomo Sher: You guys are been very.
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Shlomo Sher: Over represented in both games and coolness as far as we’re concerned.
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Shlomo Sher: And we’re always looking for more awesome guests so come on bring it and she’s currently working on the dissertation exploring the psychological aspects of esports.
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Shlomo Sher: Specifically in trash talk and consumer perspectives and honestly guys, I had to ask about consumer perspectives right and what Sydney told me is that.
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Shlomo Sher: It meant that trash talk was something that influence, not just the players, but also the fans and the industry workers, and I really have to start Sydney with this question about up.
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Shlomo Sher: trash talk industry work So these are just people who work in esports How does trash talk even relate to people who just work in esports.
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Sidney Irwin: um I think it’s like when you and she weapon esports abroad, was that, like you know you’re a journalist you work in a sports team, or you work as a tournament organizer.
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Sidney Irwin: But those are the big ones, and then you also have within those self assets such as you work in a tournament organization, but you’re also a commentator without the freelance or you’re part of the organization itself.
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Sidney Irwin: And so, when you have all these roles they also evolved around the players and the game and that and they all just to come to this page or be prone to trash talk.
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Sidney Irwin: coaches are a good example, because in big esports events, the coaches can be staying behind the players on social media they engage with the fans and like you know other.
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Sidney Irwin: players on other teams and that and then you also have the commentators who, when you see them, they can trash talk players, they can be in interviews with them, and that you know put little jabs and yeah It just shows a Liverpool.
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Shlomo Sher: Can I just say that to me that’s just sounds so weird I mean I can imagine a coach you know i’m thinking of my favorite sport is basketball and i’m thinking, of course, of those dynamics and have a coach yelling at the ref let’s say and.
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Shlomo Sher: very, very rarely yelling at the other team right, I mean coaches really as as at least more normal coaches in pro sports don’t tend to to yell at the other teeth or trash talk the other team, and they can get kicked out the coaches ever get kicked out for trash talk in esports.
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Shlomo Sher: Has that ever happened.
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Sidney Irwin: I can’t think of any off the top my head, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it actually has happened.
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Sidney Irwin: Because they’re there to like you know, I hope that plays in that, and they get in on the adrenaline on the high and that may be like if the players focus, they just want to round.
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Sidney Irwin: Sometimes approach with just like you know standard and just start shouting lt lt just like you know because they’re just so engaged in it probably have I haven’t seen it, yet I would love to see it there, because that would be absolutely hilarious.
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Shlomo Sher: If anybody’s oh go ahead and.
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A Ashcraft: I was gonna say I All of this makes me think of of watching the the.
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A Ashcraft: The coach for the New York was it the New York Yankees back in the 70s, but billy what was his name, he was always always kicking sand, it was like going out and like like like really getting in the face of the umpires and.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but the other team.
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A Ashcraft: But the other, on the other, team to I mean there’s constantly getting thrown out of games.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so it’s not like we have no precedence and in certainly in things like boxing right, you might have you know, a precedence where your promoter might get in the face of the of the of the Boxer.
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Shlomo Sher: And stuff like that and and and speaking of commentators, so you know i’m thinking of sports commentators when I think sports commentators.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m thinking you know there’s sort of your team’s commentator right so i’m thinking of chick Hearn for the lakers who I grew up with.
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Shlomo Sher: A you know, everybody loved him and he loved the team, but he was also neutral and very respectful of the other, of the other thing i’ve never heard of trash talk anybody.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m a i’m assuming this is different, apparently in esports.
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Sidney Irwin: I think it’s more of banter in that, because a lot of commentators after.
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Sidney Irwin: esports tournaments with the game’s over they’ll go out to pubs and bars with the players that will have a bit of drink like you know, some of them were friends.
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Sidney Irwin: And that, and so I feel like with that in that report you kind of do I make like like jabs at your.
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Sidney Irwin: mates, even though they are professional player in that, and I feel like there is somewhat of a professional standards and that the beds, or the jerks they’ll make like during the tournament’s during the game, we find different to the ones that will be sad the boss and match.
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Sidney Irwin: And I feel like those ones where you bit more like their personal but, like you know again they’re all good friends that.
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Sidney Irwin: All good laugh.
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A Ashcraft: Is there.
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A Ashcraft: Is there any real like.
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A Ashcraft: any real communication that happens in trash talk is there, like or is it always just sort of like get under the skin of beer, of the other player or the of your opponent.
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Sidney Irwin: I feel like we’ve trashed told there’s so many different motives and reasons why they do it because you can even trash talk someone in your in your own team.
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Sidney Irwin: Sure yeah um it’s like when you play a normal video game online bunch of random people and you missed a shot and whatnot some people will be like harassment they’ll call you, you say you suck and he got those people who make or white job rocket league have you guys played that.
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Shlomo Sher: Oh yeah.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah you know how you can do those pre tax like you know GG or very and that.
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Sidney Irwin: But you miss a goal, and you know if you’re the goalie and you just like you know do miss completely miss it the goal goes in and we’ll start spending what to say what to say what to say other than that.
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Sidney Irwin: that’s a phone like you know trash talk amongst.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so trash talk is so trash talk is really, really varied as far as that goes, and it’s really interesting to to hear about the commentators.
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Shlomo Sher: So their trash talking people players who they typically know and are having fun with they’re not trash talking them necessarily the way a competitor my trash talk another competitor to throw them off the game which really means that.
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Shlomo Sher: We might not be clear about what we’re talking about.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re talking about trash talk so let’s let’s start with this.
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Shlomo Sher: Actually, before I start with this Andy I think you moved away from your MIC so you you started speaking good and then you move back and then your your questions were barely audible just to let you know.
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A Ashcraft: All right.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay now you’re perfect that that’s that’s the challenge of having the stationary bike.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so Cindy first of all, how do you define trash talk what, what are we actually talking about.
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Sidney Irwin: That is such a simple it’s such a complex question, in all honesty, and if you were to just asked me like on the spot, like.
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Sidney Irwin: If I was at a conference so say how do you define trash talk a very simple one be it’s your taunting against someone else usually an opponent and usually in a competitive setting.
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Sidney Irwin: But then when you think about it, it can be a bit more broad than that it’s not always.
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Sidney Irwin: It can be there as a form of harassment in severe cases, it could be light hearted jokes it doesn’t we’ve just talked about it doesn’t have to be towards your opponent, it can be commentators, it can be towards your own teammates.
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Sidney Irwin: coaches will trash top players and that will sexing reasons as teammates through.
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Sidney Irwin: And then, when you look at motive is not just sometimes to get under their skin, it can be there as a jerk it can be more impulsive.
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Sidney Irwin: When you see players pop off during tournament they’re not like they’re not there to try and get into, like the other guy’s head they’re just there it’s like you’re there to just let off steam that just screaming at the top of their lungs.
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Sidney Irwin: So it’s just so there’s so many ways, traditional can be seeing how it can occur and to just put down to one definition I think it’s just impossible.
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A Ashcraft: Right right right, it sounds like there’s as many ways to trash talk somebody as there is just to have just have a conversation.
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A Ashcraft: yeah exactly there are ways of expressing a variety of different ways of things you might want to express it at the moment whether it’s frustration, or whether it’s a time or whether it’s you know okay all right, but I see that.
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Shlomo Sher: But we still need to kind of put it into box of trash talk versus just you know other forms of communication that we’re having here right, so we can have a lot of varieties of trash talk.
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Shlomo Sher: right but it’s obviously going to be different than just emoting right just you know just yelling for myself like.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re not talking to anybody right, that means, so I mean that’s not gonna that’s not going to count and politely going to tell someone that they’re doing a you know a great job is.
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Shlomo Sher: Not is not going to count.
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Shlomo Sher: But I.
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A Ashcraft: Always negative.
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Shlomo Sher: and less your motive right is going to be different here if you’re playing psychological games with them, but you’re being polite is that a is that also form of of trust Doc.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah definitely um I feel like it trash can be on a spectrum when it ranges from if you’ve got trashed look in the middle you’ve got banta at one end and then you’ve got harassment and toxicity, on the other.
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Sidney Irwin: And, depending on what is said the context, who it’s directed towards and your relationship with that person.
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Sidney Irwin: and also the motive behind it, I feel like that is well it varies and that’s when we talk about where their trash talk is acceptable or unacceptable when the penalties apply when players have to make the apologies and yeah all that.
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Shlomo Sher: um so of course you know when.
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Shlomo Sher: Andy night ended, I actually talked about trash talk in our got Andy I think it was our very first episode about the magic circle.
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Shlomo Sher: A you because you brought it up because we’re talking about.
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Shlomo Sher: You know Cindy I don’t know if you know, the idea of the magic circle.
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Shlomo Sher: No alright, so the magic circle right is the idea that essentially games take place within this kind of magic circle where everything that belongs to the game kind of belongs within the magic circle and.
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Shlomo Sher: There are things that you can do in the magic circle, and there are things that you can’t do in the magic circle that you would do in the real world, and vice versa.
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Shlomo Sher: And Andy brought up the example of trash talk I think Andy was boxers before a boxing match.
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A Ashcraft: Right right right right yeah so you know, the idea is that that when you agree to play a game you’re agreeing to step into the magic circle.
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A Ashcraft: And then now once you’ve agreed to do that, then everything’s the rules sort of changed the social rules, the physical rules, sometimes you know the very specifically.
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A Ashcraft: And then, and then these these sorts of social rules to just can change, and so you know to two boxers have agreed to box each other they’ve stepped into the magic circle, they haven’t yet stepped into the ring but they’re already playing the game.
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Sidney Irwin: Yes, yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so.
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Shlomo Sher: And, and if, and if you go by that so let’s say any trash talk so you know when boxers are presenting themselves before the match right.
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Shlomo Sher: under other andy’s understanding of when the game begins, because I didn’t really think about that about it that way.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I thought the game begins when you step into the ring that’s when the game begins, but Andy said no, no, no, no, the game begins once you kind of agreed the matches on.
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Shlomo Sher: And that means that trash talk is a part of the game i’m kind of curious how you how you took it city.
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Shlomo Sher: Do you generally see trash talk as a part of the game and I know this is probably something that’s debated within the esports Community how yeah, how do you see it as a part of game, or is it kind of a separate aspect to the gaming phenomenon.
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Sidney Irwin: I think the magic circle analogy isn’t very good one in which trash so can also occur before the game starts, it can occur after the game start is that, after the game finishes next and it’s the pain if you’ve got like robberies between teams, it can be ongoing how.
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Sidney Irwin: You play the match you trash so comfortable with.
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Sidney Irwin: Then you can have like a player break and hear each other for months and then, when a new season starts up again you’re back at each other’s like in our heads like you’re a child or it’s not and yeah, so I think trash talk is it happens in any form of competitive setting.
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Sidney Irwin: When you’re playing a backyard cricket match with your family like you know for a family reunion you’ll notice that trash to each other.
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Sidney Irwin: You play an online video game you got to start like you know trash look each other in that it’s just any form like when there’s competition arrogance down to be trashed.
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A Ashcraft: we’ve just my wife and my mom and I have just recently finished watching the great British making shows.
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A Ashcraft: And and it’s funny like even even in that very, very sweet very, very supportive cool you know but it’s still competitive and there’s still this little bit of trash talk that happens it’s always very funny when it happens.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah exactly.
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Shlomo Sher: And that might be written in by the writing team for reality show right so.
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Sidney Irwin: Right, maybe.
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Shlomo Sher: We are maybe right but.
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Shlomo Sher: Even if it is right it’s it’s a written in with the appreciation with the essentially understanding the We appreciate that and we kind of want that.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so, but we we want some trash talk a lot of times because it’s fun, but we also think that you can go too far right and we’ve kind of talked about that, with the spectrum.
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Shlomo Sher: And it seems to me i’m as i’m assuming that different subcultures and esports have very different norms about.
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Shlomo Sher: How far you can go with trash talk about what’s appropriate what’s not appropriate, so do you think that knows what’s considered appropriate for trash talk let’s talk first about this.
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Shlomo Sher: Are the norms of kind of what’s appropriate interest talking traditional sports different than.
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Shlomo Sher: Essentially, what you know about a trash talking in esports.
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Sidney Irwin: ooh I think it’s really interesting when ever a plan that’s trash talks and it’s a big one it’s printed on social media, a lot of spectators among reddit and on Twitter they’re always comment and say how our trash talk is fine, because it seems in traditional sports.
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Sidney Irwin: But then, on the other hand, you’ve got it I feel like when it comes to traveling esports is very unique because, in order to become a professional sports player you’re going to have to play the game originally yourself.
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Sidney Irwin: So you’ll be there in the casual setting.
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Sidney Irwin: with strangers, and why not build up your skill set and there’s going to be trash talk there as well.
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Sidney Irwin: So, even when it’s not completely competitive where you’re just playing online just for the sake of playing online and yeah I feel like again just at the end of the day when it’s when it’s only competitive there’s just always going to be trash talk and I feel like.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah in sports any form of sport, environment, you know to see it esports unconventional.
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A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: But there’s a really big difference between I mean i’m thinking in sports right if i’m playing for let’s say my high school team.
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Shlomo Sher: they’re going to at least our teams did really focus on the importance of sportsmanship.
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Shlomo Sher: right as as really a key part of it, little league baseball everybody’s going to shake hands afterwards right it’s a really big part of organized sports it’s going to be a little bit different if i’m playing on the playground.
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Shlomo Sher: But you know if i’m playing counter strike.
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Shlomo Sher: The whole thing is a playground.
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yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: And, and maybe maybe that leads to different a different kinds of cultures.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah and also within that there’s also different mechanics and the different environments so baseball you’re in a team of like what a dozen to 20 people on the team.
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Shlomo Sher: Right buddy.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah that’s it but in esports you’re in a team of five players i’ve been in an old team or five players or in the fighting games communities it’s a one person first one person.
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Sidney Irwin: So when you have the big basketball teams in that and baseball players there’s a lot of people in like you know, on the pitch.
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Sidney Irwin: And then, and so you might have two people trash talking to each other, but you might not like the referee might not be able to see it, the courage, what else yet because, like you know they’re just so focused on like the big game itself.
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Sidney Irwin: But in esports like it’s just so small that yeah it’s easy more much more easy to pick up on.
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Sidney Irwin: All right, and then.
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A Ashcraft: enter his bike to right so.
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A Ashcraft: yeah but he can hear everybody.
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Sidney Irwin: that’s it and you got the in game mechanics you got virtual forms of trash or like tea bagging.
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Sidney Irwin: rice yeah when you have different mechanics of different games you’re going to find ways to manipulate those mechanics to make make a form of trash talk.
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Sidney Irwin: To you just stand the voice chat box like you know ongoing ever yeah under Dr from like you’re the character in that.
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Sidney Irwin: And that’s a way to get there and that’s like if you’re on the receiving end like you know that that that gets into your skin that’s like what it’s like no stop stop and you instantly get tilted.
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Shlomo Sher: So so i’m assuming one thing that this is going to immediately lead us to which is i’m assuming since different sports have different mechanics and different numbers of players and different possibilities of interacting with fans.
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Shlomo Sher: Is trash talk different and it’s interesting because one question would be is if trash talk is different and then another question would be whether it’s it’s tolerated differently.
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Shlomo Sher: In different esports so let’s I guess start with the i’m thinking things like see us, you know, a CS go.
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Shlomo Sher: counter strike global offensive versus fortnight right that alone just seemed like a dramatically different kind of game with different types of players are the trash talk between communities really different.
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Sidney Irwin: I think I think, yes, because if you look at they see a scar and, for example in CS go you’ve got always comes.
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Sidney Irwin: you’re always talking to the other players in fortnight when you’re in that big like in 100 people arena.
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Sidney Irwin: you’re not going to have the opportunity to trash talks and then you have got to use more virtual forms of trash talk like the dancing that little like l high kicking there, so you do whenever you’d like you know over an hour to hospital and body.
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Sidney Irwin: And that.
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Sidney Irwin: And also found out there are some game developers that will implement that earned rules to other encourage or this this trash talk.
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Sidney Irwin: blizzard and overwatch is a good example because a couple of years ago, at the end of the game, you can type in ggs.
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Sidney Irwin: Like good game easy sort of saying like you know all good game, but he was easy for me because you’re just support player right.
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Sidney Irwin: um blizzard the game 12 itself actually updated the game in which you can run on the top that in the chat.
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Sidney Irwin: If you type in ggs and press enter it comes from a different message saying like you know hey you played really well or hey i’m having a good day today so it’s like this boss yeah.
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A Ashcraft: uh huh.
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Shlomo Sher: Interest, so what what are, what are you give any other examples, by the way of of essentially the the game companies, limiting trash talk this way because I thought that was a really good example, can you give us a couple more.
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Sidney Irwin: Oh, maybe team, but also encouraging Eve online that’s a game in which.
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Sidney Irwin: it’s like skulduggery stealing and whatnot it’s all encouraged and so that’s just like endemic in the social norms of the game and so with that, like.
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Sidney Irwin: You got you don’t get I think I already get reported as much so, in any other game, at the end, the gaming reporter player say like you know, are they were harassing me and whatnot.
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Sidney Irwin: I feel like games like even while I was still there, it probably plays point might not report it as much.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah it’s just more like a.
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A Ashcraft: Culture, you know it’s Eve online is another one of these games that comes up quite a bit in our.
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A Ashcraft: In our discussions here yet.
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A Ashcraft: Because, yes, very specific like you know Wild West.
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Sidney Irwin: Did you guys talk about it with on Marcus caught him and.
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Shlomo Sher: He was a guest, or we did we did.
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A Ashcraft: That yes.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: And a couple of others, but yeah we did.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah his his works are inspired me a lot to look at unsportsmanlike conduct in.
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Sidney Irwin: esports and without move over the trash talk.
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cool.
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Shlomo Sher: um okay um now um, I guess, let me ask now about the the fans themselves we haven’t really talked about lines of acceptability it so far we’ve been kind of very general about.
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A Ashcraft: What is trash.
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Shlomo Sher: trash talk how generally as it done uh I guess there’s kind of a bunch of different directions, we can go, we can go with.
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A Ashcraft: But how does it go too far.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, I want to before we get we get there, I kind of want to know, because we have your questions about.
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Shlomo Sher: How it is in competition versus how it is and we want to talk about the competition right so we’re gonna I guess leave D let’s leave the fans part alone, except the fans in the competition sorry, so I was talking about fans.
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Shlomo Sher: Of the game sorry Andy i’m going to scratch, this whole I see i’d be i’m, the editor I.
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Shlomo Sher: Could.
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Sidney Irwin: I could just.
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Shlomo Sher: Out of my ass and then say i’ll just added that out um, but I do want to know if.
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Shlomo Sher: There are some situations where the fans really think of what counts as trash talk differently than the players do or the League does right when I said the League, I mean i’m assuming it’s the company that owns the delete.
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Shlomo Sher: right when they just have different interpretations of what.
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Shlomo Sher: counts as trash talk itself.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah um it’s just so interesting because there’s no written rules of trash talk there’s.
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Sidney Irwin: Really there’s a vague rule or unsportsmanlike conduct in that case, do not participate in it, but then any form of unsportsmanlike conduct gets reviewed gets analyzed by the moment organized by the admins by the referees.
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Sidney Irwin: There was an interesting case about a month ago, in which it was an apex legends tournament and it was a very small team, so you have the admin slash first he was streaming it through his perspective.
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Sidney Irwin: And pretty much a player teabags his own teammates.
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Sidney Irwin: And yeah and the guy immediately shut it down, he said he’s like a born to disqualify this play on this team, because that goes against sportsmanship.
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Sidney Irwin: And then, in the lobby in the in game chat Bobby the pressure plastic and he goes but i’m tea bagging my own teammates.
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Sidney Irwin: And whatnot twitchy me just like look there goes I don’t have time to talk about this it’s all about sportsmanship and whatnot and it just seemed a bit like.
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Sidney Irwin: I know for me it’s it’s a bit absurd that that rule, just as nervous rules against the bagging in the tournament so for him to make that call so drastically so suddenly and not review it yeah It just seems a bit plausible to me complex.
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Shlomo Sher: Could you Okay, we want to go into a bunch of directors, with this and we have to land very quickly, and what is sportsmanship but before that can you explain what tea bagging is far, far.
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Sidney Irwin: Too many.
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Shlomo Sher: Years you’ve been invited here to explain tea bagging that’s really the reason you’ve been invited here.
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Sidney Irwin: Oh, my supervisors my PhD project he didn’t know about esports and that, before I came along, I had to explain to him what tea bagging is and trying to explain that to a 40 year old like very like nerd conserve gentlemen yeah he was like okay take him back tea bagging is when when you.
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Sidney Irwin: eliminate a player either their fallen avatars body or a certain box, we can lose their weaponry and that it just remains in the game.
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Sidney Irwin: tea bagging is when you show dominance over the player by approaching that body or box and you just you should perhaps your mechanic up and down and it simulates a very vulgar sexual act in a very.
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Sidney Irwin: that’s very similar temperature.
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Shlomo Sher: I I remember learning about tea bagging from a john waters movie.
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Shlomo Sher: You know john waters has you know his movies, are a lot of times about you know games and trans populations in.
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Shlomo Sher: baltimore and essentially a stripper would teabag you with his balls.
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Shlomo Sher: And that was considered both funny and some people sexy, I actually.
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Shlomo Sher: I posted the article of this of this tea bagging incident to my feet on Twitter and I asked people what they thought and the first response I got was someone retweeted it and said that this should absolutely not be allowed, because it was essentially a an act of sexual assault.
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Shlomo Sher: And I was, I was like on one I was like I never considered it to sexual assault on a dilute dilute box.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah.
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Sidney Irwin: um so just some video games you’re upset about tea bagging alert box in a game which you are killing someone.
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yeah.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m okay i’m Andy did you want to say anything about this because.
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A Ashcraft: I don’t know i’m not touching any of that.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so so let’s get to sportsmanship because it’s really interesting, this is tea bagging is certainly not the kind of thing that you’d normally expect.
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Shlomo Sher: You know when you’re thinking about rules for a match right, especially not tea bagging objects.
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Shlomo Sher: Or you know or your own teammates but.
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Shlomo Sher: uh is it unsportsmanlike we can’t talk about that unless we defined what sportsmanship is so, how would you define sportsmanship.
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Sidney Irwin: So I feel like sportsmanship it’s all about respect for not only your opponents, but for the game for the tournament organizer and just everything around the competitive setting.
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Sidney Irwin: With that there are different, I guess personal values which reflects sportsmanship such as like you know fairness.
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Sidney Irwin: Sporting integrity and that’s are not following following the written rules but also following the unwritten rules, the social norms and that and when there’s forms of unsportsmanlike conduct that may slip in.
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Sidney Irwin: it’s knowing when it happens and just knowing what to like do what’s going to be best, in fact, everyone.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting that you added the social norms, the social norms of the game in there, because on the one hand, that seems very important, on the other hand, you said you know esports is very young, yes.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so yeah I mean orders, what are the social norms.
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Shlomo Sher: Of sportsmanship and esports.
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Sidney Irwin: I feel like that varies depending on the actual different games again with overwatch you don’t say GG ease in even lie is bit more broad of like you know.
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Sidney Irwin: You can’t if you’re to steal someone else’s like equipment in a different game.
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Sidney Irwin: It might be considered like you know, like against the social norms and that you could get reported for that, but an evil mind it’s encouraged and that’s that even shows a bit of you have a bit of respect for your opponent, when you do that.
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Sidney Irwin: Because for the skill set for them to go into your you know your area and steal your equipment you just like that’s a thought on your behalf, but no okay I didn’t make my life Defense and stronger.
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Sidney Irwin: And that’s so yeah there’s respect there as well, even though it’s something that is considered unsportsmanlike there’s also a hint of respect for your printer there.
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Shlomo Sher: Which is that.
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Sidney Irwin: You don’t.
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Shlomo Sher: Even want those such an outlier.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, yes, so if we go to let’s say we go to more mainstream I mean and it’s interesting because it’s an outlier and we ended up talking about it a lot because it’s an outlier because it is just such an interesting environment.
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Shlomo Sher: But you know typically we have essentially.
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Shlomo Sher: You know you did talk about respect right for for the game for the other, the other team.
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A Ashcraft: Is and for the fans to.
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Shlomo Sher: Read for the fans.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah yeah I can you trash talk to fans i’m sure I mean.
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Shlomo Sher: You know that happens all the time and in esports and and regular sports.
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Sidney Irwin: And contrast to play is this girl heckling and that you go to a European soccer match and those crowds and full on chance like.
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Sidney Irwin: Some pretty bold and stuff but yeah you just accept it.
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Shlomo Sher: So it’s trash talk anti sportsmanship because I mean does it show a lack of respect for you know for the game for the for the other team for the referees.
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Sidney Irwin: I think it’s for me I don’t think it’s a sign of it me both sports like an unsportsmanlike but it doesn’t also have to be I feel like you can trash talk your opponent, but he knows, I still show respect to them.
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Sidney Irwin: If you were to look at rainbow six siege there’ll be a new to look at trash talk in that thing you would notice two things always pop up on the professional player Fabian.
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Sidney Irwin: And Canadians Why am I so much better in your read that he did, about two years ago.
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Sidney Irwin: Google that example you’re going to love it, it is full on shoppers that he just called out on the yellow team of a specific player in that year.
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Sidney Irwin: But then he just has this massive shout this he screaming he swearing at the very end of the game, he gets up and he goes over the shakes ahead and give them hugs.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m.
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Sidney Irwin: Right so then there’s also respecting that like you know you can trash talk each other, but then at the end of the game you shake hands and whatnot and you just you understand that it’s all for the game, and I feel like when it comes.
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A Ashcraft: up again right.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah that’s it when trash will become unsportsmanlike or, more specifically, unacceptable is when it doesn’t apply to the game.
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Sidney Irwin: When you are calling out a player based on sex, based on race in white noise more personal issues that they’ve been dealing with such as mental health and whatnot.
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Sidney Irwin: When you use that context to your trash talk that’s when yes it’s when you hear professional players getting removed from teams have to make formal apologies you understand why, because that is yeah bit more yeah unacceptable.
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A Ashcraft: So i’d like.
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A Ashcraft: To add to that that like if you have like little league like where we have we have the professional baseball players and you have like six year olds playing you know we allow the professional baseball players more trash talk, then we allow the six year olds.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah because.
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A Ashcraft: We well it’s because we don’t want to discourage it can be discouraging.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah I.
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A Ashcraft: don’t want to discourage new players from the game that’s bad for the game.
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A Ashcraft: To discourage new players from the game, but then you have these these these esports and and it’s not quite so stratified anymore, and you can have new players in the game with with.
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A Ashcraft: With you know experienced players and you know, and maybe we need to have some sort of way of differentiating like oh hey we got a new player here let’s let’s keep the trash talk to a minimum, just because we don’t want to discourage these players from from coming back.
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Sidney Irwin: yeah and it’s also interesting because when it goes to esports some professional players, they start their careers in that 1516 years old.
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Sidney Irwin: So they’re still kids their brains are still like you know not like fully developed in that.
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Sidney Irwin: And their their trash talking me more you got the 30 year olds like they might be a professional player for four years, and they consider a veteran.
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Sidney Irwin: And that they trash talk and then there’s like this whole like talk discussion of age and whatnot now yeah if our young player trash or very vulgar you just say, are they young like you know there’s still a bit immature.
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Sidney Irwin: that’s good acceptable, but then, when a 30 year old white dude exact same thing people go, I will come on he’s an adult now he should like you know pulls headed.
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Shlomo Sher: You know what what What strikes me is how.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, it takes a while for communities to develop norms and you know i’m thinking of the history of of a soccer or football.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know coming out of like these, you know codified by these elites in England, you know that all went to Eton.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know are, this is a gentleman sport, you know originally speaking right but they originally kind of create these these norms that come kind of come out of that it’s it’s interesting to say that the example of.
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Shlomo Sher: Of a player that might trash talk throughout the game and then afterwards, you know, give the other player a hug and show respect it is really interesting because that works.
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Shlomo Sher: Only if that’s a norm that’s understood that it’s okay to have trash talk and also trash talk within the means of whatever that’s allowed, because obviously we’ve already established.
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Shlomo Sher: that there are some things like someone’s sex, age, race, etc, that might be an I know of age is off the table which is kind of an interesting one, in itself, sexual orientation, whatever will be.
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Shlomo Sher: Given how.
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Shlomo Sher: with other leagues, a lot of times.
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Shlomo Sher: The lead comes in and codifies what the norms are, and I know that sounds weird, because how can the League codify with the norms are but they seem to do it through some sort of social pressure.
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A Ashcraft: Right somebody has to do it.
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Shlomo Sher: Somebody has well well, a lot of times norms just develop but, but if no one does, I mean I mean look, I mean leagues, right now, are trying to figure out how to do it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and there and they have a hard time because they’re doing it because the training grounds for esports which is just the regular games themselves could have can be so toxic right could have such a.
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Shlomo Sher: You know so much trash talk there is so much harassment there that it’s hard to kind of, say, but now that you’re a professional.
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Shlomo Sher: Things are going to be different, but the game is still going to be fun damn it it’s the game you love just you got to play it in a sportsman like way and we have to teach you what those are.
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Shlomo Sher: And i’m not sure exactly where i’m going with this.
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Shlomo Sher: except to point back to the difficulty because I imagine you know the player that has talk shit about me for the last 45 minutes uh and really.
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Shlomo Sher: made me feel like i’m deeply disrespected.
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Shlomo Sher: As now coming up to me to give me a hug.
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Shlomo Sher: I might have a different set of expectations in mind and feel like he doesn’t deserve to be given disrespect After talking to me that way and it’s really weird when you don’t have kind of a.
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Shlomo Sher: norms that can tell us who’s who’s right in assuming how the interaction should go how to stuff like this work.
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Sidney Irwin: I feel like it becomes more of the rapport among professional players some professional players might have played with each other, online and the casual environment.
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Sidney Irwin: Because they’ve seen each other and a lot of tournaments in that.
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Sidney Irwin: Behind like there’s always a saying how you don’t know what the trash is like behind the closed doors, so when the players are on social media when they’re not on the stage and that when they all chillin in the green room.
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Sidney Irwin: And that’s what happens there and so you’ve got to also consider how some players might trash to each other more brutally because outside the game they might be considered somewhat friends.
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Sidney Irwin: Which is a bit interesting because your competitor like you know you’re playing up against each other, you representing and all you’re trying to compete for this like fame or glory for money.
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Sidney Irwin: And then you’re also friends of your opponents afterwards and sometimes a professional player might be one team move to another.
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Sidney Irwin: But so there’s still got their team like this, look at the old players on the original team that they will play against.
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Sidney Irwin: And so, with that they might trash or more like you know because it’s like hey we used to be teammates now arrivals.
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Sidney Irwin: They might trash or less because, depending on how the situation behind they got removed from the team like you know might be a bit more like.
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Sidney Irwin: Accepting or you know they might have to, then I got booted out and that and then, when you look at the players themselves you’ve also got individual factors like not just age, but cultural differences.
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Sidney Irwin: Brazilian players might trash to each other more vulgar on each other, like you’re more vulgar they may be more direct but then he put a Brazilian player or Brazilian team up against a.
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Sidney Irwin: Like another European one, it might be a bit more confined because, amongst them like resilience might not know how a certain European team will accept trash talk.
360
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Sidney Irwin: Because you’ve also got those like you know endemic factors of those individuals as well, so to a showing teams like you know where a bunch of Americans.
361
00:45:56.970 –> 00:46:11.790
Sidney Irwin: Who, just like in our banter and just like you know talk tracks which hello to the cows come home and then up against know attain you just you don’t know how they’re going to react and that, and you got a complete stranger than yeah it’s just bit more, plus a.
362
00:46:13.200 –> 00:46:23.940
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s interesting this really kind of reminds me how because, as I was saying earlier about how groups form norms right these kind of moral norms.
363
00:46:25.080 –> 00:46:28.920
Shlomo Sher: there’s so few sports like this that are so international.
364
00:46:29.100 –> 00:46:39.990
Shlomo Sher: hmm that this itself is sort of a new phenomenon right, I mean you know when I think of international competition for know for regular traditional sports.
365
00:46:40.470 –> 00:46:57.540
Shlomo Sher: they’re mostly so stratified and you know very controlled and very rare right and that kind of helps overcome cultural differences may be, you know but esports these things seem to be a lot more common and I guess the players just kind of adjust for that.
366
00:46:57.900 –> 00:47:08.130
A Ashcraft: that’s interesting yeah I think you’re absolutely right about like there there aren’t any other sports in the in the world, probably that are as as global.
367
00:47:08.580 –> 00:47:10.170
A Ashcraft: and lowest levels.
368
00:47:10.620 –> 00:47:11.190
Right.
369
00:47:12.510 –> 00:47:15.330
Shlomo Sher: Which is another reason why esports so damn interesting.
370
00:47:17.040 –> 00:47:18.150
Shlomo Sher: um okay.
371
00:47:19.410 –> 00:47:30.780
Shlomo Sher: got it so you know it’s interesting because Sydney I I see two kinds of trash talk that to me are really, really different I wish I could explore explore them differently.
372
00:47:31.860 –> 00:47:35.100
Shlomo Sher: Because I I definitely see the one that really seems a lot more.
373
00:47:37.200 –> 00:47:45.540
Shlomo Sher: anywhere from banter to harassment, but it’s not really aimed at winning the game versus the original trash talk that.
374
00:47:45.840 –> 00:47:53.580
Shlomo Sher: Andy and I were talking about with the boxing match the whole point of trash talk was to undermine your opponent yeah so how about we first.
375
00:47:54.300 –> 00:48:06.210
Shlomo Sher: Talk about that can can you give me any kind of examples of trash talk were in esports where someone is trying to undermine their opponent at whether in the game or before the game.
376
00:48:06.990 –> 00:48:12.630
Sidney Irwin: yeah definitely so even before the game professional players will trash talk on social media.
377
00:48:12.990 –> 00:48:20.640
Sidney Irwin: They might be like having a pregame interview on the stage in that in the interview, we would like to know, also how you feeling about today’s day.
378
00:48:21.090 –> 00:48:30.570
Sidney Irwin: But the my friend, is a player they’d be like you know oh i’m feeling very confident, because the whole team just sucks in that and, unlike any other team they set up their equipment on stage they can do this.
379
00:48:30.660 –> 00:48:37.890
Sidney Irwin: Right so, then they get their chance like you know, one of the players will go up, then what you know, are you think we suck and then like they’ll say they’re like little jab back.
380
00:48:38.250 –> 00:48:46.200
Sidney Irwin: Right and then during the game players might be depending on the environment, whether it’s on a stage in which they can.
381
00:48:46.620 –> 00:48:58.860
Sidney Irwin: verbally shout to each other in that or the in the glass groups, they might do small like you know non like don’t verbal form trash talk hand gestures they might try to like pull the bird at the other person.
382
00:48:59.880 –> 00:49:03.810
Sidney Irwin: And yeah it’s all flat stage and might be just to distract them.
383
00:49:04.080 –> 00:49:17.340
Sidney Irwin: Right to get into their skin, to get them tilted to get them like you know more angry in that lose focus so yeah with that there’s so many various ways that trashed with various motives and reasons why players do it.
384
00:49:18.540 –> 00:49:28.650
Shlomo Sher: Now, obviously the things that would really get in their head the most and piss them off the most are the things that we also come closest to where we draw more lines on.
385
00:49:28.950 –> 00:49:39.390
Shlomo Sher: Yes, so what so let’s let’s now talk about some of those more lines, first of all, race, ethnicity nationality, how did, how did those come into play, what sort of stuff.
386
00:49:40.470 –> 00:49:41.460
Shlomo Sher: Do people here.
387
00:49:43.260 –> 00:49:48.990
Shlomo Sher: In trash talk and what sort of norms exist about what can and can’t be done.
388
00:49:50.280 –> 00:49:58.470
Sidney Irwin: I feel like it depends on if you’re going to trash talk a player it’d be acceptable if you trash talk early on their skill set of the game.
389
00:49:59.070 –> 00:50:13.410
Sidney Irwin: If you say, are you suck or wow That was a poor move and that i’m a good one, is when those a CS go to match a very pronounced now player capable simple.
390
00:50:13.890 –> 00:50:18.030
Sidney Irwin: he’s very well known for being mean and the fact that he will knife an opponent.
391
00:50:18.510 –> 00:50:24.660
Sidney Irwin: So that’s a very high skill set to be able to like not not sure your enemy from afar job like sneak up behind them like stab them.
392
00:50:25.020 –> 00:50:33.780
Sidney Irwin: And that that’s a form of like trash talk because, and that can also get your children because, like you know our this guy mentioned like tripped up on me um there’s a.
393
00:50:33.870 –> 00:50:35.670
Sidney Irwin: village yes.
394
00:50:35.730 –> 00:50:40.080
Sidney Irwin: yeah and that’s another reason why people trash talk to humiliate the other one.
395
00:50:40.290 –> 00:50:51.810
Sidney Irwin: Alright, so those this case I think about two years ago, in which he was about to knife and opponent, but then the opponent turnaround saw him and just like shot him and eliminate him.
396
00:50:52.830 –> 00:51:05.130
Sidney Irwin: And that actually that moves costs symbols to the game, because it allowed the other team to get that round and then get enough like economy to buy better armory better weapons and that.
397
00:51:05.610 –> 00:51:15.690
Sidney Irwin: And they win the game, to which, at the very end, when the team team that one American players Julie just shouted yeah keep Nice and simple we like that.
398
00:51:18.660 –> 00:51:25.590
Sidney Irwin: So yeah when it comes to that context that’s for me that’s fine that’s acceptable trash talk.
399
00:51:25.800 –> 00:51:46.890
Sidney Irwin: Right and if she was to turn around and make fun or simple on the fact that he’s Ukrainian and that that can be a bit more like over if you mark that’s when an admin or tournament organizer can come in and when rules never be implemented penalties, whether an apology has to be given.
400
00:51:47.640 –> 00:51:48.030
Shlomo Sher: So.
401
00:51:48.510 –> 00:51:50.370
Shlomo Sher: Is it is it that simple.
402
00:51:50.670 –> 00:51:51.120
You know.
403
00:51:52.380 –> 00:51:52.770
Sidney Irwin: attended.
404
00:51:53.250 –> 00:51:57.030
A Ashcraft: The same rules for that’s that’s honestly, the same rules for.
405
00:51:59.130 –> 00:51:59.940
A Ashcraft: Giving.
406
00:52:04.200 –> 00:52:05.490
A Ashcraft: complimenting a stranger.
407
00:52:06.180 –> 00:52:15.720
A Ashcraft: Yes, right, you can compliment them on on choices that they’ve made have made, but you can’t compliment them on things that they don’t have any any control over.
408
00:52:16.140 –> 00:52:17.010
Sidney Irwin: yeah exactly.
409
00:52:18.060 –> 00:52:29.220
A Ashcraft: i’m like their nationality, their race, their gender, any of these things are like you know if somebody came to me and said I really like the color of your skin, that would be weird and creepy.
410
00:52:31.140 –> 00:52:40.080
Shlomo Sher: Though I, I am thinking about a you know lots of a you know, a playground trash talk, where you make fun of how the person looks.
411
00:52:40.920 –> 00:53:00.120
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean that’s part of traditional you know, a you know traditional both playground and plenty of you know, professional sports have made fun of you know, the way people look um you know is notice that’s not that’s not a skill set right and i’m trying to think of any.
412
00:53:00.480 –> 00:53:02.220
A Ashcraft: Choice if it’s if it’s.
413
00:53:02.520 –> 00:53:08.670
A Ashcraft: Oh, this person who’s come onto the onto the onto the field in there and they’ve and they’ve done something crazy to their hair.
414
00:53:08.880 –> 00:53:13.290
Sidney Irwin: yeah or they might have a bad haircut and that that can be a bit light hearted because.
415
00:53:13.320 –> 00:53:15.360
Sidney Irwin: that’s like you know you can just make a funnel.
416
00:53:15.690 –> 00:53:32.220
Shlomo Sher: easily or the way they dress or you know and they’ll notice something you’re imposing Andy what is one principled way to do this right that things that you know the things that they chose rather than though of course our choices are also you know, a product of our environments.
417
00:53:32.280 –> 00:53:32.580
A Ashcraft: sure.
418
00:53:32.610 –> 00:53:38.790
Shlomo Sher: You know, to, and you know that that matters too, but to go back city to this idea of.
419
00:53:40.140 –> 00:53:43.290
Shlomo Sher: You know where is the line.
420
00:53:44.550 –> 00:53:52.110
Shlomo Sher: Where the norms go, I mean is, it is it really just as simple as you can only talk about the skill.
421
00:53:52.830 –> 00:54:08.490
Shlomo Sher: Or is it open to other because you know we could talk about race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, but besides that you know we could talk about haircuts right so right, we can talk about you know choice of T shirts right.
422
00:54:09.510 –> 00:54:19.980
Shlomo Sher: We can talk about sponsors even I don’t know why anyone would talk shit about someone sponsor because that seems that it would no longer allow you a road to potentially be sponsored by.
423
00:54:20.940 –> 00:54:21.390
A Ashcraft: But.
424
00:54:21.420 –> 00:54:28.170
Shlomo Sher: I mean so with with all these and notice, these are not necessarily offensive right to the person.
425
00:54:29.400 –> 00:54:41.460
Shlomo Sher: Are these things part of the norms that you that you can do, or is the norm, just very, very strict it’s all about the skill and it’s interesting the fall about the skill, the player why shouldn’t I be able to tea bag you.
426
00:54:42.900 –> 00:54:48.480
Sidney Irwin: yeah I feel like every single like case or internal trash talk.
427
00:54:48.990 –> 00:54:58.680
Sidney Irwin: has to be treated differently, I don’t think there’s going to be a single way of like you know, are all forms of personal attacks on the player a bad because you can make fun of someone’s hair cut.
428
00:54:59.550 –> 00:55:12.450
Sidney Irwin: In that um if you got different cultures and whatnot occasional the Brazilians would make fun of like you know different like areas of Brazil, Spain and whatnot they come from, because that’s part of their culture.
429
00:55:13.590 –> 00:55:22.710
Sidney Irwin: And so, when you have all these variables there’s it’s going to be very hard to say like you know this, like all these forms of trash talk or Okay, all these forms of trash or not.
430
00:55:23.520 –> 00:55:30.240
Sidney Irwin: The social norms there’s never going to be a single way of like you know of our trash talk is or is not acceptable.
431
00:55:31.260 –> 00:55:40.560
Sidney Irwin: Because then you’ve also got to consider the players own identity, their agenda there embrace their relationship with the person they trash talk to.
432
00:55:40.980 –> 00:55:49.590
Sidney Irwin: Is it a teammate is that a person player what’s their relationship like that opposing player, where they are on different teams beforehand, or they originally.
433
00:55:50.340 –> 00:56:00.780
Sidney Irwin: On the same team and that there’s just too many factors, so when it comes to social norms it’s just it’s so interesting because it’s almost like you know what the social norms are.
434
00:56:01.170 –> 00:56:06.780
Sidney Irwin: You know when it goes too far, but then, when you have to try and sit down and explain it it just becomes too broad.
435
00:56:08.310 –> 00:56:10.020
Sidney Irwin: And yeah.
436
00:56:10.680 –> 00:56:15.870
Shlomo Sher: You know, to meet this, as you know, this is part of the problem with ethics itself.
437
00:56:16.320 –> 00:56:32.160
Shlomo Sher: yeah and this, this is why the idea of esports as a global meetup is just so interesting because you’re Taking all these a lot of times the answers come from our social norms and when we have cultures that are.
438
00:56:34.110 –> 00:56:42.090
Shlomo Sher: Morally complex cultures that are not you know just a trick hype what hyper traditional cultures, where everybody agrees on what the norms are.
439
00:56:43.050 –> 00:56:56.910
Shlomo Sher: We get people with very different ideas about what the moral norms are, and when we hiked us up to a global context we have lots and lots and lots of ideas and it is hard to come up with a shared.
440
00:56:57.480 –> 00:57:08.430
Shlomo Sher: You know code, however, of course, sports are aware of this and sports draw the road code of ethics right, so it seems easy enough for let’s say a company.
441
00:57:09.570 –> 00:57:12.270
Shlomo Sher: remind me who who owns a counter strike.
442
00:57:13.260 –> 00:57:22.590
Shlomo Sher: valve bow okay so right valve can just say okay well here’s a code of ethics of sportsmanship if you’re going to you know play in.
443
00:57:23.790 –> 00:57:28.260
Shlomo Sher: You know, in a match that is a professional match and it’s interesting how this could be.
444
00:57:29.610 –> 00:57:40.260
Shlomo Sher: If this would be a professional match on a certain level or an international match or whatever, this would be with the supply differently to regional versus you know global um but.
445
00:57:40.860 –> 00:57:49.530
Shlomo Sher: yeah kept, they say, you know here’s our code of ethics and the code of ethics is going to be this this and this and essentially let’s say we’re going to make our code of ethics.
446
00:57:50.310 –> 00:58:00.030
Shlomo Sher: What you guys said earlier, which is, you can only talk about the player skill you can’t talk about anything else, what would we be missing if if valve did that, if anything at all.
447
00:58:00.870 –> 00:58:10.410
Sidney Irwin: I feel like you could also just be missing trash talk in general, because there are some players when is this discussion of whether a plot at table trash or not.
448
00:58:10.830 –> 00:58:17.670
Sidney Irwin: They might have that bit of a feel of like, if I am going to make this like they might have a good joke, and then their mind they know it’s a joke.
449
00:58:18.060 –> 00:58:26.700
Sidney Irwin: But then they might take them back with says, like in our hang on like what happens if that player doesn’t see it as a jar What if the Edmund doesn’t see it as a jar What if my like.
450
00:58:27.060 –> 00:58:35.640
Sidney Irwin: organization that I represent it doesn’t take us a jerk and that, and so they might like not trash or they might not engage in it, because of that fear of like you know the repercussions.
451
00:58:36.870 –> 00:58:37.560
Sidney Irwin: And so.
452
00:58:37.680 –> 00:58:43.320
Shlomo Sher: It isn’t that so that’s really interesting because it also makes me think about how much have.
453
00:58:44.280 –> 00:58:52.770
Shlomo Sher: To be in a sport player and to actually make money from it can also involve sponsorship and followers and being able to tell a joke.
454
00:58:53.610 –> 00:59:09.300
Shlomo Sher: can really be a big thing because the fan will like you and that could really help your career in some really important ways I mean you know raise your profile is just really important there and it’s and you’re raising a profile, a lot of times because you’ve made the game more enjoyable.
455
00:59:09.930 –> 00:59:12.570
Shlomo Sher: You know, to the fans, at the same time.
456
00:59:13.170 –> 00:59:22.530
Shlomo Sher: If there was a code of ethics that was super strict like that wouldn’t that at least take out some of that ambiguity that you were talking about.
457
00:59:24.300 –> 00:59:33.000
Sidney Irwin: Maybe, but I feel like also just when you have these broad norms, or you might have an up and coming player who might not be as familiar with the social norms and that.
458
00:59:34.020 –> 00:59:41.010
Sidney Irwin: They might want to they might be very outgoing charismatic person, but then in the game they might not engage that much in trash talk.
459
00:59:41.520 –> 00:59:50.370
Sidney Irwin: Out of the fear of like you know what could happen, how the organization is going to see it, and if you’re going to have these full on strict written rules.
460
00:59:50.850 –> 01:00:03.150
Sidney Irwin: Of what threshold is and what is what it isn’t It might also be hard because again there’s certain various contexts and that it’s just so yeah I don’t think there should be.
461
01:00:03.750 –> 01:00:09.840
Sidney Irwin: written rules specifically about trash talk, you can have the urban role of unsportsmanlike conduct.
462
01:00:10.440 –> 01:00:20.610
Sidney Irwin: And that in that any forms of unsportsmanlike conduct or anything that is considered unsportsmanlike conduct should be reviewed by not just a player, it should be viewed by the team body.
463
01:00:21.150 –> 01:00:29.070
Sidney Irwin: to organize themselves and their admins I think those guys should all get together and have a discussion okay What was your reason behind this trash talk.
464
01:00:30.060 –> 01:00:36.600
Sidney Irwin: And the playground say like Oh, I did it, for this reason and then economics like you know the opponent, how they felt and then a sentence.
465
01:00:36.660 –> 01:00:37.920
Shlomo Sher: Portsmouth like you mean.
466
01:00:38.460 –> 01:00:42.750
Sidney Irwin: yeah Oh, when the discussion of whether it is or is not unsportsmanlike.
467
01:00:44.280 –> 01:00:50.910
Shlomo Sher: yeah though the who gets to the side when trash talk has gone into that.
468
01:00:51.630 –> 01:00:53.490
Shlomo Sher: yeah no into that place.
469
01:00:53.790 –> 01:00:56.370
A Ashcraft: When I guess when it generates enough discussion.
470
01:00:57.210 –> 01:00:57.570
A Ashcraft: Yes.
471
01:00:57.600 –> 01:00:58.980
A Ashcraft: Right when people care enough.
472
01:00:59.730 –> 01:01:19.560
Shlomo Sher: Right, but that seems to it’s it’s interesting because you know it’s easy to say you know, there should be no unsportsmanlike behavior if we haven’t defined unsportsmanlike and we’re living unsportsmanlike behavior completely devoid of any content, but it also is arbitrary and then there’s.
473
01:01:19.590 –> 01:01:21.540
Sidney Irwin: always going to be unsportsmanlike conduct.
474
01:01:22.080 –> 01:01:32.340
Sidney Irwin: there’s always going to be that player if your goal is to just truly when you’re going to try, you know, try and find out like fine fishes and find ways to win, by all means necessary.
475
01:01:33.300 –> 01:01:33.540
Sidney Irwin: Right.
476
01:01:33.630 –> 01:01:38.670
Sidney Irwin: And with that it comes like you know unsportsmanlike actions might not you cannot get rid of like you know there’s.
477
01:01:38.910 –> 01:01:41.820
Sidney Irwin: No one’s going to play the Games by the rule set in stone.
478
01:01:42.210 –> 01:01:46.500
Sidney Irwin: there’s got to be one person there’s always going to be cheaters there’s always going to be matched fixes and that.
479
01:01:46.740 –> 01:01:54.300
A Ashcraft: And more that you try to define those rules, the more those players will will will just brinkmanship this well.
480
01:01:54.540 –> 01:01:55.530
Sidney Irwin: yeah that’s it that’s.
481
01:01:56.670 –> 01:01:58.680
A Ashcraft: right along that edge of that rule.
482
01:01:59.190 –> 01:01:59.400
yeah.
483
01:02:00.660 –> 01:02:17.490
Shlomo Sher: Does that still seem better than I mean i’m just i’m thinking i’m thinking about how other sports do this right, I mean other sports do have rules, they have kind of set penalties that are imperfect, the rules themselves, you know you never have a rule that is perfectly clear.
484
01:02:17.520 –> 01:02:18.990
Shlomo Sher: That is, think about that it can’t be.
485
01:02:18.990 –> 01:02:20.010
Shlomo Sher: soccer context.
486
01:02:20.160 –> 01:02:31.350
A Ashcraft: Okay soccer is is another one, where it is a global right but literally the the the the referee on the on the field makes the decision.
487
01:02:33.030 –> 01:02:33.900
A Ashcraft: again.
488
01:02:33.960 –> 01:02:34.440
Right.
489
01:02:36.150 –> 01:02:56.670
Shlomo Sher: Yes, that is true, I mean completely contextual but if the referee made the decision that this is considered out of the proper context, if he gave you a red card for a you know a thing that you hated the number on another place shirt to that player.
490
01:02:57.930 –> 01:03:02.190
Shlomo Sher: You know sra Deborah, for he would get fired i’m assuming.
491
01:03:02.850 –> 01:03:06.210
A Ashcraft: Well, there may be repercussions after the game, but the red card would stand.
492
01:03:07.050 –> 01:03:08.940
Shlomo Sher: The right card would stand yeah.
493
01:03:10.620 –> 01:03:22.980
Sidney Irwin: Even after the game they could be discussions those plans those teams can that can go up to the roof can go up to the admins and say hey we feel like you know we deserve this red card or we feel like we deserve this penalty.
494
01:03:23.160 –> 01:03:23.670
Sidney Irwin: And that.
495
01:03:23.970 –> 01:03:29.010
Sidney Irwin: And then there’s comes to like you know they might do video replays and watch the boats in that.
496
01:03:29.340 –> 01:03:34.680
Sidney Irwin: And then they might either stand down and say like, no, no, you definitely deserve that red card or they may make the.
497
01:03:34.890 –> 01:03:45.690
Sidney Irwin: Like formal statement saying Okay, but not to retract this penalty but and I retract this red car and we apologize for that player apologize for that team because referees that like we’re all human we make mistakes.
498
01:03:47.160 –> 01:03:57.810
Shlomo Sher: You know what one thing that’s interesting with esports is that, ultimately, the esports is tied to a brand uh you know with.
499
01:03:58.350 –> 01:04:15.750
Shlomo Sher: You know, with FIFA, you know that brand is a you know, FIFA, would you know, or it might be the nba or in this case that brand is the company that owns the game right um how much interest to companies themselves taken regulating.
500
01:04:17.370 –> 01:04:18.000
Shlomo Sher: trash talk.
501
01:04:19.140 –> 01:04:37.680
Sidney Irwin: That varies amongst the different gaming developers I reckon blizzard again overwatch they do rule it like an iron fist that they don’t have much like a high voltage in the rules and how the League is set up, and all and how the players are to represent themselves.
502
01:04:38.730 –> 01:04:42.570
Sidney Irwin: valve almost take like you know the almost take like you know I stand offish approach.
503
01:04:43.140 –> 01:04:51.840
Sidney Irwin: Because the CFO seen it’s almost like a broken circuit, in which you have various tournament organizers you’ve got whilst you’ve got esl and whatnot they all run them.
504
01:04:52.140 –> 01:05:00.450
Sidney Irwin: On different tournaments that different leagues and that and I feel like valve don’t engage that much early in very serious instances.
505
01:05:00.900 –> 01:05:18.330
Sidney Irwin: So when there are players are caught match fixing caught cheating and whatnot and when when the organizers are struggling to set like certain rules and penalties penalties wow that’s when they step in and say like Okay, we recommend you guys should take this approach and that.
506
01:05:19.410 –> 01:05:37.380
Sidney Irwin: And league of legends right, then, the one that you know they will have a bit more like of a stats or they have a bit more involved in their esports leaks, both in league of legends and balance and yeah so each game developer has a different approach, which is very interesting as well.
507
01:05:38.790 –> 01:05:42.030
A Ashcraft: yeah I think as a as a developer, I would be very involved in it.
508
01:05:42.810 –> 01:05:43.980
A Ashcraft: My my.
509
01:05:44.370 –> 01:05:51.660
A Ashcraft: My go to would be to make like try to be as involved as possible and the creating of that of that culture.
510
01:05:52.680 –> 01:05:57.630
Shlomo Sher: Right, but if you’re overly involved right you’re suffocating right, I mean you know.
511
01:05:57.870 –> 01:05:58.950
A Ashcraft: You don’t have to be.
512
01:05:59.130 –> 01:06:00.210
Shlomo Sher: Dangerous right.
513
01:06:00.930 –> 01:06:02.760
A Ashcraft: I did not be suffocating.
514
01:06:03.450 –> 01:06:16.590
Sidney Irwin: I feel like a good analogy there’s an equal channel is Richard Lewis, we talks about valve and their involvement with the CFO esports scene independent to that the tournament organizers our kids in a sandbox.
515
01:06:17.070 –> 01:06:24.060
Sidney Irwin: And valve is the parents, so the parent goes back inside they’re making a cup of tea they’re watching like you know out from the kitchen window.
516
01:06:24.330 –> 01:06:31.170
Sidney Irwin: And in all the tournament organizers of the kids in the sandbox and whatnot and they’re just like playing the toys and say, if you have like the big bully kid.
517
01:06:31.530 –> 01:06:39.150
Sidney Irwin: They might come in and go like you know all these choices are mine like in our artists of all this that’s when the path bigger might come out and they’re like, no, no, like.
518
01:06:39.690 –> 01:06:42.120
Sidney Irwin: we’re gonna have these rules, and then they go back to the kitchen.
519
01:06:42.390 –> 01:06:42.660
Right.
520
01:06:43.740 –> 01:06:45.960
A Ashcraft: yeah that seems like a good way to do it.
521
01:06:46.320 –> 01:06:46.680
yeah.
522
01:06:47.970 –> 01:06:50.490
Shlomo Sher: Okay let’s move on oh sorry yeah.
523
01:06:50.520 –> 01:06:51.270
Shlomo Sher: By the way, are we.
524
01:06:51.300 –> 01:06:52.410
A Ashcraft: were in about an hour.
525
01:06:52.470 –> 01:06:54.510
Shlomo Sher: So you might we are at about an hour.
526
01:06:54.690 –> 01:06:57.150
A Ashcraft: yeah you might want to start the start to dismount.
527
01:06:57.840 –> 01:07:06.270
Shlomo Sher: Okay damn it Okay, I was going to go into an entirely new completely new topic about about fans.
528
01:07:06.480 –> 01:07:07.050
A Ashcraft: I don’t mind.
529
01:07:07.170 –> 01:07:17.310
Shlomo Sher: But if we’re already in an hour, and I think it’s been a good hour and then I think we should probably not go there, because I think that’s another 20 minutes.
530
01:07:20.490 –> 01:07:26.490
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah cuz I want to talk more about fans and I, and I feel like.
531
01:07:26.970 –> 01:07:38.310
Shlomo Sher: You know, we haven’t talked that’s where I wanted to go with the fans so okay so Sydney so in this case I realized I didn’t ask you this, I didn’t I didn’t write this to you, which I normally do so.
532
01:07:38.730 –> 01:07:53.490
Shlomo Sher: The last question, I always ask our guests now is essentially what you want to leave our listeners with and and I asked you to kind of keep it under a minute, if you can and I end up using it as.
533
01:07:54.540 –> 01:08:11.700
Shlomo Sher: A number one it’s really nice to end, you know with you know something that kind of sums up what you want our listeners to get and I can also use it for promotions to like here’s kind of the the essence of what this episode did come come and listen to the episode so uh.
534
01:08:12.840 –> 01:08:20.490
Shlomo Sher: So I didn’t ask you this, do you need to think for a moment on what you would want to say for answering that question or.
535
01:08:20.760 –> 01:08:22.350
Sidney Irwin: No, no, have you having to say it now.
536
01:08:22.830 –> 01:08:31.020
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so all right Cindy so one last question for you up what do you want to leave us with what do you want our listeners to keep in mind when it comes to trash talk.
537
01:08:31.830 –> 01:08:38.190
Sidney Irwin: I think when it comes to trash talk when you look at you can’t really define trash or based on one definition.
538
01:08:38.730 –> 01:08:47.040
Sidney Irwin: There are too many ways it can be seen, it can be acted there are too many various merchants, and the reasons why players do or do not trash talk.
539
01:08:47.490 –> 01:08:55.290
Sidney Irwin: And so, with that when it comes to talking about the accessibility or unacceptability word sportsmanship or unsupportive like.
540
01:08:55.620 –> 01:09:12.150
Sidney Irwin: it’s far too broad, you have to look at each individual case, for instance of trash talk and then, as a community your social norms, reflecting the norms of the tournament itself and with that you can’t discussion of whether it was acceptable or unacceptable.
541
01:09:13.560 –> 01:09:15.480
Shlomo Sher: All right, Cindy irwin.
542
01:09:15.870 –> 01:09:16.950
Thank you so much.
544
01:09:19.770 –> 01:09:20.430
Sidney Irwin: me guys.
545
01:09:20.730 –> 01:09:22.920
Shlomo Sher: Alright play nice everybody.
