[Release Date: March 29, 2022] Video game transactions are a highly unusual, perhaps unique, business model. Our guest Elie Cohen essentially calls it an exploitative scheme where “the house never loses”. It’s not that they’re always bad, but they easily can be exploitative, wrong, or simply “uncool”. What can or does make a microtransaction exploitative and what can be done about it?
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: All right, everybody le Cohen, is our guest today she’s a PhD candidate at princeton university and an assistant professor in the entertainment arts and engineering program and department of philosophy at the University of utah you’re our third guest from the University of.
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utah.
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Shlomo Sher: You guys have such a great gaming program that we just we just love you know shout out to T and jose’s ago.
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Shlomo Sher: her main research areas are logic metaphysics epistemology and the philosophy of the games which.
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Shlomo Sher: is why she’s here today.
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Shlomo Sher: Welcome to the show ellie.
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Eliya Cohen: hey guys.
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Shlomo Sher: Alright, so we are talking exploitation in micro transaction that’s the idea, and I want to start with this.
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Shlomo Sher: So, in an essay called the House never loses you wrote this right.
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Shlomo Sher: Sorry guys, let me really quick just do Can someone speak turn.
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Eliya Cohen: Yes, i’m.
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Shlomo Sher: Just make it get just making sure it’s coming from my headphones Annapolis okay.
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Shlomo Sher: In an essay that you wrote called the House never loses you wrote this so I thought we’d start with this.
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Shlomo Sher: Imagine an industry that makes a business model, much like a casinos except it the most literal sense of the phrase that House never loses.
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Shlomo Sher: Not only with the House when, in the long term, but every iteration of every game would be one with a House never COPs off the scent.
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Shlomo Sher: And curiously, it would be precisely because the House never has to pay out because patrons can never win, but only lose something of value that the model will be largely unregulated.
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Shlomo Sher: Welcome to the video game industry with the product is so enchanting with that we almost forget the producers exploit us, while we play all right, I feel like you threw down the gauntlet here.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah that’s a bit exaggerated right.
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A Ashcraft: I mean.
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Shlomo Sher: It sounds really good so so let’s see I mean you know let’s see if we get you to walk any of that back or maybe not right, but it’s it’s it’s a nice kind of a you know.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s a nice way to get attention to the beginning of the podcast obviously.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so that’s what we’re starting with it, but I do want to say this right when I buy something through micro transaction or loot box.
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Shlomo Sher: A character in poly topia, which is what i’ve been playing obsessively lately a skin and fortnight a loop box and FIFA right i’m choosing to spend a few dollars on a product.
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Shlomo Sher: We do this, all the time out of games right, it seems like an innocent voluntary purchase, so what makes you especially concerned that micro transactions in gaming’s can be particularly exploited.
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Eliya Cohen: So I honestly think you guys really nailed the core question on the head here with this and the thought that you’re having i’m just going to like expand on it for a second, but I think it’s very natural and I kind of agree with it, to some extent.
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Eliya Cohen: it’s like you know, once we set aside issues with children and gambling addicts aren’t these just extremely normal low stakes commercial transactions among consenting adults.
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Eliya Cohen: it’s not like anyone’s holding a gun to our heads it’s not like we’re being gouged for money or something like that.
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Eliya Cohen: So it doesn’t really seem like there’s any coercion or force or fraud going on, maybe even not any deception, which i’ll talk about later, maybe.
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Eliya Cohen: And the consumers rational right so she’s perfectly capable of walking away from the offer and if, after that transaction she’s unhappy that’s her problem.
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Eliya Cohen: And then, your question is like okay so ellie what’s especially bad about micro transactions, why isn’t it just like buying a bag of chips at the store yeah um so one thing to get right off my chest.
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Eliya Cohen: And I want to see if you guys agree with me to um I don’t think they’re that bad I think there were like tons of great things that micro transactions can do for the industry, there are lots of games that implement them in a way that’s beneficial to everyone.
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Eliya Cohen: And I think they can be really wonderful.
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Eliya Cohen: And I agree that in most cases producers aren’t under any moral obligation to stop what they’re doing, but I also think that there’s something special going on something different about this industry and buying a bag of chips at the store.
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Eliya Cohen: Something objectionable but, just like to a lower degree it’s not illegal not morally impermissible in a lot of cases.
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Eliya Cohen: And so you guys are wondering what is that thing um, so I think the big thing that’s different about micro transactions is that they’re presented to us inside of the game.
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Eliya Cohen: While we’re playing while we’re in that flow State while we’re immersed in this fictional world and we’re not like that, when we’re buying a got a bag of chips.
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Eliya Cohen: and video games are really enchanting things they’re immersive there in like a kind of highly distinctive way, so you can get immersed in a movie.
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Eliya Cohen: or a tabletop game, but movies, let us be spectators to these fictional worlds games, actually, let us be part of them and interact with them.
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Eliya Cohen: And we can even create the stories inside of them and decide what happens to the characters or to ourselves and.
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Eliya Cohen: developers do a remarkable job kind of creating these contexts, for us to escape into, and not just look down onto and when we get into those into that like state of mind when we’re playing.
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Eliya Cohen: We sort of shut off the outside world, and I think when you present a real transaction to players when they’re playing games you’re doing you’re crossing some sort of lines you’re.
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Eliya Cohen: you’re breaking a barrier from that world on the outside, to the fictional world of the game and that’s.
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Eliya Cohen: You know, like there’s a real monetary consequence for the decisions that you’re making in a fictional setting setting when you’re sort of trying to escape from the real world, maybe, or I don’t I don’t know about real world, the outside world.
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A Ashcraft: It seems like like another metaphor might be late night advertising with the phone numbers that you can call and immediately.
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A Ashcraft: By the thing that you’re that you’re saying so it’s late at night you’re watching TV you’re probably you’re probably in that zone that similar sort of flows own state.
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A Ashcraft: And then, all of a sudden there’s a thing to do now, there is a little bit of friction there like you do have to go pick up your phone dial a number.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah.
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Eliya Cohen: And part of what I think ultimately is like what we should be pushing back on the industry is like create a little more friction for us make it a little bit difficult more difficult for us, so we can take that moment to think like Okay, I actually have to walk to the phone.
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Eliya Cohen: Maybe I have to actually get out of the game to buy that cosmetic Pack.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah Why would I want to get out of the gate you know it’s interesting.
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Eliya Cohen: Why would I want to do that yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Right is right i’m enjoying the game right.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting the immediate micro transactions are so interesting, but because they do seem to be so unique right, I mean there’s never really been a business model like this, as far as kind of.
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Shlomo Sher: I can tell.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean.
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A Ashcraft: Think about the snacks you buy on a train.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, this next I buy in a train.
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Eliya Cohen: No good exactly so like airplanes right um there’s so much this is another point I was going to make to is.
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Eliya Cohen: You know there’s a ton of competition, about which bag of chips you’re buying.
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Eliya Cohen: there’s a ton of competition, about which grocery store you’re going into and there’s lots of competition, about what game you’re buying, but once you’re in my game there’s no competition for who’s telling you that my grocery into micro transactions.
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A Ashcraft: yeah.
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Eliya Cohen: So, like yes lots of competition, about which airline I pick but.
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A Ashcraft: there’s no choice about what snacks I get.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah I mean there is right you’re just choosing between the very small variety of let’s say.
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Shlomo Sher: Your potato chips or right.
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A Ashcraft: But then yeah they’ve already made the deal with one with one manufacturer.
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A Ashcraft: And they’re going to show you.
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Eliya Cohen: That man I think it’s.
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Eliya Cohen: Even worse, and micro transactions than the airline case because I mean for many reasons, but you know.
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Eliya Cohen: They gave us this desire for for this gun this skin we didn’t have like we had a desire to eat chips or something we’re going to be hungry on the plane.
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Eliya Cohen: they’re taking advantage of that moment, the industry, the airline industry but there’s something maybe slightly manipulative about giving us a goal or creating a desire and.
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Eliya Cohen: And then, trying to you know, like give us our fix for it.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, it sounds to me like you just.
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Shlomo Sher: described the you know.
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Shlomo Sher: The cynical take on marketing I don’t know if it’s critical really or the accurate marketing in general, like created a desire right offer a solution for the desire, which would the desires artificial.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean right so in.
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Shlomo Sher: And in one sense, I mean you know, maybe this is part of kind of a tradition of doing that, but it seems to be very different if you’re like if you’re in a world if you’re in an activity if you’re in a in an actual like.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean you call it a state, you know state of flow right, which itself is kind of interesting so but let’s take a step back.
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Shlomo Sher: And and.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s when we say our to step back let’s talk about what exploitation is because, taking advantage of is very it’s not really clear what it means to take advantage of here so whether you want to use take advantage of or exploitive how, what do you have in mind here.
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Eliya Cohen: Okay, so.
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Eliya Cohen: The the kind of standard definition of exploitation is sort of vague so it’s to exploit someone is to take unfair advantage of them.
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Eliya Cohen: It has to be unfair, so if you think of like playing chess or go.
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Eliya Cohen: i’ve sort of given up my there, there are certain things i’m there, and like new norms to the situation so i’m like it’s Okay, if you trick me it’s Okay, if you see an advantage and take you know take advantage of a weakness that you see in my defensive stones.
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A Ashcraft: The game.
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Eliya Cohen: Right it’s right.
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A Ashcraft: Part of the magic circle.
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Eliya Cohen: Right and it’s we do this, too, with video games we like or like lots of different sort of.
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Eliya Cohen: entertainment fiction setting so like with books, I want the you know I sort of want to let the author take me on this journey surprise me, maybe even trick me and manipulate me make me think one thing and then switch.
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Eliya Cohen: it’s weird when you’re charging for me charging On top of that, but um yeah so back to exploitation, it has to be unfair, so we can take advantage of someone or advantage of a vulnerability that have or weakness, they have.
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Eliya Cohen: But in some sense, it has to be unfair as well, because we don’t want to want to say that the go player, the chess players being exploited, at least in the moral sense that we’re interested in.
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Eliya Cohen: Right, so I don’t take a position on what it is to be unfair and we don’t have to get into the you know the details of that but.
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A Ashcraft: i’ve i’ve been asking my students.
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A Ashcraft: to write a little sad at the beginning of every semester about what they think unfair means.
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Eliya Cohen: And nobody I got I would love.
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Eliya Cohen: To I would love to hear what they say yeah.
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A Ashcraft: it’s it’s all over the board, there is no single definition for what we just know what unfair is, we feel it, but we can’t define it.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah and i’m okay with that too there’s a sort of like a sense of thing going on, I can point at cases and we can all agree, like these are paradigm, we can point out cases and know that their friends.
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Eliya Cohen: And we sort of all have this conception and then we can say some things that are basically right like maybe there’s some harm going, you know some harm or some rights violation, but maybe not always and that’s Okay, we can be vague about it.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah we are going to need to talk about some some cases that will give us right at least some sort of were like per dogmatically we’re going to say okay.
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Shlomo Sher: This is the example that hopefully we can all agree is unfair and and and that a lot of micro transactions essentially occur in a way similar to that example so maybe some something like that right.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah it is by the way, I think Andy and i’ve had this conversation about fairness before my students standard response oh it’s different for everyone, and you know, for us, you know you guys have had that standard response before which is you know.
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A Ashcraft: that’s because they get them first semester.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: It doesn’t it doesn’t matter it’s you know my.
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Shlomo Sher: My seniors my seniors answer the same way, because because they don’t know, but of course that’s a meaningless answer, but there are situations, at least we can agree, but before maybe we get into what’s unfair vulnerabilities oh.
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Shlomo Sher: What do I mean.
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Shlomo Sher: Is it is it any kind of vulnerability or they’re going to be kind of special ways of creating a vulnerability.
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Eliya Cohen: No special thing in mind here, and I think this is really broad to and you could you could have such a broad conception of vulnerability that I would be okay with like, maybe.
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Eliya Cohen: If you can take unfair advantage of it, it is a vulnerability I don’t know um so like if my loyalty to my mother, it could be taken advantage of maybe you would call that a vulnerability, but.
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Eliya Cohen: I don’t know.
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Shlomo Sher: I love that because normally we think the vulnerabilities come first and what’s not fair is taken advantage of those vulnerabilities like.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah like we can say that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, we have all these cognitive biases that are psychological vulnerabilities.
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Shlomo Sher: Like the sunken cost fallacy let’s say right.
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Eliya Cohen: Great.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah, especially in this case.
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A Ashcraft: And in the tabletop role playing game world we we we make use of this this idea, all the time, we can give characters.
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A Ashcraft: Like like champions, which came around in the in the 80s allowed asks you to when you’re creating your superhero you also have to create these vulnerabilities for them that they that you’re basically allowing the game master to.
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A Ashcraft: To take advantage of so you know, I have some some something to do with kryptonite or I have an old aunt who who you know, often shows up in the stories and I need to rescue you know these are things that that we’ve seen in games, for many, many, many, many years.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so the keys to be when do you take an unfair advantage of them.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah really what the vulnerabilities because it seems.
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Shlomo Sher: To be almost anything.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah I mean I think that’s okay and there’s a lot of debate over this, and something yeah there’s a lot of debate, of course, like a philosopher will take anything and go as far as they can but.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah I think.
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A Ashcraft: But I can imagine, like in the in the champions game like it would feel unfair if.
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A Ashcraft: You know when the GM who I created this character and the character, has an answer, and if the GM brings the ant into the game and then says Oh, by the way, it’ll cost you $1 to save her.
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yeah.
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Eliya Cohen: By the way.
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A Ashcraft: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: would feel it fair.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah so I.
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Eliya Cohen: wonder like I think really helpful thing to point out is that for a long time now, people have generally agreed that exploitation can be mutually beneficial so um.
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Eliya Cohen: And the the general test that it really rough broad vague test would be are my worse off than I should have been rather than I would have been so let’s just give an example, like.
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Eliya Cohen: i’m allergic to bees if Andy and I are hiking in the woods it’s very remote and I get stung by a bee and he’s the only one who has an EPI pen.
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Eliya Cohen: Then you know he can sell it to me, for whatever i’m I have right, if I have $25,000 he can do that because my choices are death or giving Andy $25,000, but there is a real sense in which.
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Eliya Cohen: Something unfair is happening i’m worse off than I should have been, even though I am better off than I would have been Labor exploitation is like this, too, so maybe I won’t survive if I don’t have any money, but it still doesn’t mean it’s right to pay me $2 an hour.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so you’re benefiting from my misfortune, in this case and right and you’re creating additional misfortune in some sense for additional benefit right and those kinds of situations right.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah and reinforcing all these structural.
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Eliya Cohen: imbalances and yes.
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Shlomo Sher: Sir, so if we take your bookcase right, you know I can I, I can charge you 100 bucks or I can charge you 100,000 bucks.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah right.
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Shlomo Sher: If your life is on the line right either one of those in both cases i’m helping you right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right in the SEC, in the first one i’m charging a nominal fee, you know.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s say it’s not terrible in the second one i’m clearly gouging you and i’m adding additional harm.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah and the way that i’m taking advantage of your of your situation.
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Eliya Cohen: And this happens with micro transactions too so like I was saying before with the monopolistic setting that they create this temporary pseudo monopolistic setting.
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Eliya Cohen: we’ve like looked at data and.
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Eliya Cohen: You know, people will pay almost anything for a micro transaction they’re like highly inelastic goods.
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Eliya Cohen: So something.
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Shlomo Sher: How much Kim can we get some examples here.
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Eliya Cohen: Oh.
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A Ashcraft: yeah it’s What do you mean by in a lab in elastic.
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yeah so something.
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A Ashcraft: I know i’m not super familiar with that term.
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Eliya Cohen: Okay, good so like some examples of an elastic good bags of chips, an example of an elastic good like tobacco products or insulin so like an elastic good is.
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Eliya Cohen: One where the change in price results in a comparable change and demand, but in inelastic one doesn’t so you could basically hike up.
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Eliya Cohen: I see that the prices.
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Eliya Cohen: Are for cigarettes and people will still buy the cigarettes.
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A Ashcraft: Because they because they’re because the demand is innate.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah it just doesn’t it’s not affected by the price.
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Shlomo Sher: Though.
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Eliya Cohen: to a significant degree.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so let’s say if i’m asking for, if i’m going to get let’s say one more extra try in candy crush.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: How much you know is that the kind of thing that would be a lot, I mean obviously i’m assuming you know.
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Shlomo Sher: The deeper I am into the deeper I care about it, the more i’m willing to pay but there’s got to be a kind of limit on what is sensible.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah and, to some degree right but not really there’s it goes past what the consumer feels is a fair price, in a sense, I mean that’s a that’s a way that you could look at it.
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Eliya Cohen: And they interestingly cosmetic goods work like this, too, I think I mean it’s all it’s all very interesting and the data is really like kind of.
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Eliya Cohen: You know it’s not super helpful for people like me because i’m not a part of like a production team, or like a game company, where I can have access to the exact data so they’ll give us they’ll give us these like kind of fake numbers.
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A Ashcraft: Right right.
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Eliya Cohen: um but they still will like tell us the trends and communicate that you know these goods are we found that they’re inelastic.
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Shlomo Sher: Actually, sorry a little bit positive for a second i’ve really kind of always wondered about this.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah, how do you get How does that happen with us, I mean it’s interesting because a lot of this as you’re really kind of.
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Shlomo Sher: Trying to look at data of what happens with micro transaction, but for what I understand all that data is like super super proprietary yeah really shared How does that work, how does someone research that stuff.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah it’s really it’s also especially with the video game industry, right now, which is in a lot of ways, different and still like developing all of these regulations on top of it like they’re all these interesting things about.
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Eliya Cohen: Preserving video games for academics to even like look at um yeah so I haven’t i’m gonna have to do that stuff more, and I can get back to you, but I don’t have like a quick answer.
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Eliya Cohen: Okay yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so so now let’s say.
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Shlomo Sher: That cosmetics, I also don’t want to abandon.
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Shlomo Sher: But let’s let’s get back to to to the let’s say candy crush situation or whatever right, the idea is going to be that.
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Shlomo Sher: Look, unlike let’s say a normal product situation or maybe even a normal game situation if you essentially gave me a sense of float left so let’s say and I don’t know if we could talk about whether this needs to be accidental or.
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Shlomo Sher: or intentional but let’s let’s listen, the first thing is accidental right.
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Shlomo Sher: The the levels were just made, you have just been doing great you’re feeling like you know you’ve been kicking ass and you’ve been amassing i’m sticking with candy crush I guess here come i’ve got I recently like somebody I knew was a level 4400 something and I was like shit.
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Eliya Cohen: People.
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Shlomo Sher: Like.
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A Ashcraft: You gotta raise your either.
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Shlomo Sher: I quit around 900 but I went really far right so right so so let’s say right you’re in this kind of state of flow and then you get the option right to get essentially.
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Shlomo Sher: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: More options more items to help you kind of pass the next level right.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re feeling like you’re on a roll, which makes you more likely to buy those things, but that seems very different than let’s say if the levels were made in such a way that.
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Shlomo Sher: I would start passing the faster, and I would be essentially put into a state of flow right by the game designer as opposed to by chance of my own abilities.
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Eliya Cohen: Right your psychology yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right and and if and then start, and then the you get the uphill part right where things become harder and now I am reaching for.
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Shlomo Sher: Now i’m reaching for the micro transaction is that is that, like now, I can see how, in the second part if I know that the game designer has put me into the situation and artificially created this kind of in it, I need it right so that’s desires created for me right.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah well it’s exploitation if it’s created I mean don’t you think there is yeah.
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A Ashcraft: At least, yes, I need a.
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A Ashcraft: little bit.
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A Ashcraft: As the game designer in the in the room, I need to push back a little bit, and you know i’ve just finished reading rereading Celia rodents chapter about motivation in her in her book The the gamers brain sealy code and another one of our guests.
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A Ashcraft: and great she’s she’s great, but basically in order to get into that flow state the stars really have to align in a very specific way there’s I can I can help it as a game designer I can I can.
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A Ashcraft: I can set things up in the hopes that you’re going to get into the flow state but it’s it’s there’s so many other things that I don’t have any control over.
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A Ashcraft: You know your personality and your biology and your other motivational things to get you that likely you’re probably somebody, if you like, the game that i’ve made you’re likely to be one of the people that will get put into that flow state by me, but.
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A Ashcraft: yeah i’ve got to push back a little bit and say I can just I can just press a button and put you in a flow state.
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Eliya Cohen: Well yeah and I.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah go for it.
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Shlomo Sher: I was gonna say you know it would might be said then maybe the example I gave is unfair, but it just doesn’t happen.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I mean that’s.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s possible right that you know if they if game designers could do this and we can talk about whether.
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Shlomo Sher: We would.
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A Ashcraft: If we could.
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Shlomo Sher: And again, maybe there are situations where you could maybe this is a question about how much information you have about where I am how much information you have about human psychology versus.
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Shlomo Sher: How have been doing in the game, I mean maybe it is possible to kind of you know crunch, that information, but if this is the case notice, if we can agree that that would be an exploitation.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, then a secondary question would be and does that actually happen.
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Eliya Cohen: In biker transact right right, but I also think it’s um it’s uncool.
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Eliya Cohen: location has this like you know super negative.
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Eliya Cohen: Moral charge to it but it’s like and I do want to deflate that a little bit um It is like somewhat uncool, even if there is a pre existing defect or vulnerability in the consumer or the player.
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Eliya Cohen: Like yeah so you know the examples that I like to talk about.
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Eliya Cohen: You know if you’re a football player in the middle of a game and you’re going to be less likely to notice the severity of your head injury.
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Eliya Cohen: There are people rooting for you people depending on you and you’re literally going to feel less pain.
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Eliya Cohen: or so that doesn’t have a transaction in it, but like if you’re a cyclist and you’re in the middle of a race and you’re right near that and.
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Eliya Cohen: you’re right near the finish line and someone’s right in front of you, and you get the option to use or buy a sport enhancing drug you’re just more likely to take that offer, even if you’d regret it afterward even if you would like told yourself, you would never do that in the beginning.
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A Ashcraft: And, especially if the if the if the only friction was do I press this button on the handlebar.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, yes, that yet though again right.
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Eliya Cohen: or even just turn your bike a little bit to the left, you know.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah accidentally do it yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Right no I like i’m thinking about you know yeah i’m thinking about games, but that’s really kind of all you gotta do right just run.
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Eliya Cohen: through it.
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Shlomo Sher: But it’s interesting because part of me wonders if the very act of buying is export is exploitative here or cool whichever way we talked about it i’m good either way or that it’s not just a transaction, but the particular price that bad.
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Eliya Cohen: Oh good.
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Eliya Cohen: So there’s a difference.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah there’s a difference between like substantive exploitation, which is a disproportionate exchanging.
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Eliya Cohen: value so like the be case or the Labor exploitation cases and then there’s procedural exploitation, where something went wrong intuitively with the transaction itself that procedure.
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Eliya Cohen: Even if or the process of transacting, even if the prices are fair and that’s what i’m more interested in right like.
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Eliya Cohen: Even if it’s perfectly fair price if you’re taking advantage of my ignorance of the product that’s exploited of.
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Eliya Cohen: Or if I think, so I think it’s a bit extreme to say that i’m rationally limited in these flow states it’s more like i’ve shifted like my preferences, a little bit.
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Eliya Cohen: And that just makes me a different kind of rational actor and I think you could take advantage of that so maybe you know again back to the question of what’s a vulnerability, you could still take advantage of me, even if that isn’t you know i’ve seen.
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Eliya Cohen: Most people as like a vulnerability or a weakness.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah.
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Eliya Cohen: Okay, then there’s this excel like maybe objectionable example that I use is it Okay, if I say it it’s a sex worker.
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A Ashcraft: Case i’m sure.
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Eliya Cohen: Sure yeah so it’s um.
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Eliya Cohen: it’s as if, in the middle, so a sex worker in the middle of sex with a client stops to renegotiate the price or offer premium services for for an increased fee.
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Eliya Cohen: Yes, lots of crazy things going on there and differences between that case and the micro transaction case but it’s just supposed to make it very vivid that.
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Eliya Cohen: you’re playing the game, you have these different goals and desires are very focused you’re kind of like channeling your focus into one thing and then.
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Eliya Cohen: And then weirdly we’re given that thing right T talks about this like we’re given that desires right, and then you charge us and okay okay.
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Shlomo Sher: So I, so I like the distinction right, we have one let’s leave the whole like exploitation and I forgot the the technical name, you gave it, but the one where we’re talking about the the price itself is unfair.
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A Ashcraft: Substantive yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s let’s leave that out of the way and let’s go with the procedural one and get can we get some more video game examples.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah let’s give some examples.
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Eliya Cohen: But you know the classic one is Star Wars battlefront to um so let me just like explain that one um electronic arts 2017 i’m hid key characters and weapons behind loot boxes, so those like probabilistic you things not always micro transactions.
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Eliya Cohen: Random items they call them random items now um yeah okay so.
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Eliya Cohen: um so it takes the average player over 40 hours to unlock a character like Luke skywalker um and people find that.
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Eliya Cohen: Pretty crazy to get everything for free so to unlock the character for free and to get absolutely everything it takes 4500 hours are over 4500 hours.
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Eliya Cohen: And to put that into perspective because, like a big number like that you can’t really think about it’s the equivalent of playing the game for two hours a day for six years, or two years working a full time job.
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Eliya Cohen: Right so and I mean what’s much worse about it intuitively again is that you’re paying $60 for the game up front, so it sort of feels like an entrance fee to.
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Eliya Cohen: Like a festival or fair but you’re not really told that you’re going to be paying anything later on and it’s not just like $5 to get and it’s 60 and it’s not $5 to get on the ride it’s it’s like 40 hours of work or $80 was what someone like wrote this angry right.
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A Ashcraft: And the Luke skywalker characters the first character that you can get and you still have to work 40 hours to get there.
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Eliya Cohen: it’s just a character, you can get grind through the game yeah so do like repetitive tasks which can be.
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A Ashcraft: used for these the main character of the of the of the.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah so there’s this like concept yeah there’s a concept of like i’m owed the core game, whatever that is.
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Eliya Cohen: Right and, like some good experience and it feels like Luke skywalker so.
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A Ashcraft: that’s the basis right I get I get the I get the main three I get how on Lou yeah.
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Eliya Cohen: And it’s not it’s like a loop box, so I have a chance at getting these things if I play.
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A Ashcraft: that’s so that’s 4040 hours on average.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah grinding for free, on average, for me, you know.
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A Ashcraft: It could be longer.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know grinding his work right grinding it out enjoyable so let’s let’s make that clear but OK notice notice what we have here with this case, we have a case of Is this a case of deception well that that that might be, you know, is the problem here that procedurally we’re and we’re.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re we’re taking advantage of a situation where the reason we’re the reason, this is all happening, the reason we can’t take advantage is because of deception and maybe that’s the problem, or is this a.
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Shlomo Sher: Year, or is this a situation where does enough ambiguity in what you’re supposed to get in a game.
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Shlomo Sher: That again notice with the fairness issue you know if i’m receiving you that seems like it’s unfair right, but if you know the very idea of what you’re supposed to get in the game is itself.
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Shlomo Sher: ambiguous in some way then maybe it’s less unfair, though, if I knew that.
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Shlomo Sher: I think we’re gonna give him something else.
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A Ashcraft: i’ve gotten ahead of it a little bit because we had so.
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A Ashcraft: The idea is that is that yeah I can I can spend 40 hours not paying micro transactions, but I could buy paintings, by paying some get hit get these characters much, much quicker right.
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Eliya Cohen: Presumably right.
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Eliya Cohen: yeah just keep paying and it’s gonna be like $80 so.
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A Ashcraft: Right and then we’ll keep going and i’ll keep going up each time you do it because we’ve known for a long time that the players who are willing to give $1 are also willing to give $20 and also willing to give $100 and also willing to get $500.
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Eliya Cohen: The whales yeah.
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A Ashcraft: Right right there’s.
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A Ashcraft: there’s people who can’t who and there’s granted there’s a lot of money in the world and, and some people can afford it and it’s chump change to some people, but to other people, it can be quite a lot yes.
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A Ashcraft: So you know whether I stopped at $1 or I stopped at $20 is is.
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A Ashcraft: is one of those things where if they they know and we know as developers that have if players are willing to spend $1 they’re probably willing to keep spending dollars and multiple sets of dollars.
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Eliya Cohen: there’s a feeling of maybe this is gambling.
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A Ashcraft: Even there’s certainly a feeling of.
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A Ashcraft: ooh that’s that’s the person we want to have playing because they will pay money and continue to pay money.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so at that point right.
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Shlomo Sher: At that point, what does that recognition matter I guess is is one of the questions we could ask you right.
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Shlomo Sher: Now if i’m from recognizing right i’m the designer i’m recognizing look, this is one of those players.
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Shlomo Sher: right that I can keep pushing they have essentially the kind of vulnerability that I think is going to work with this doesn’t matter if i’m conscious of this or if my algorithm just happens to.
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Shlomo Sher: just happens to target and instead of identify those people.
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Eliya Cohen: If you’re conscious of it, I feel like there’s an intuition that you might have that like yeah it’s worse if if you’re not ignorant.
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Eliya Cohen: But people disagree with that right um yeah go ahead Andy.
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A Ashcraft: I was gonna say it’s it’s it’s kind of a moot point because we’ve been aware of it, for at least 10 years.
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Eliya Cohen: There you go.
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Eliya Cohen: We have it.
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A Ashcraft: As an industry, this has been common knowledge for at least 10 years.
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Eliya Cohen: And I mean one thing to say, too, is like we should allow people to indulge in their vices to some degree, if they want to you know, like it’s okay that we, I mean I think it’s Okay, that we have alcohol available.
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Eliya Cohen: But we and it’s okay to have casinos I OK, I could get like.
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Eliya Cohen: Endless pushback for that, but you know, the thing that I think is and we should have micro transactions, because again there’s a huge list of great things that they do for the industry.
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Eliya Cohen: But you know, do the things that the casinos are doing like give us more control so put self bands are like let me, let me self band myself.
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Eliya Cohen: Let me put a spending limit on on myself when i’m in that state of mind when i’m gambling and respect that person on the outside of the casino or outside of the game, the person who’s not intoxicated.
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Eliya Cohen: Rather than that person who’s in the middle of gameplay and people are doing, I mean the industry is doing this, so just to give them credit, you know, like xbox has spending limit controls.
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Eliya Cohen: I think we do this on phones to for children, especially yeah lots of other countries have gone a lot farther with us to write.
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A Ashcraft: But it but it’s interesting that it did take the industry basically 10 years to to go oh right, we should probably not do this.
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Eliya Cohen: Oh right yeah probably.
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Eliya Cohen: I mean yeah and um yeah exactly it.
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Eliya Cohen: makes it.
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A Ashcraft: We figured out how to exploit.
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A Ashcraft: People well before we thought about whether or not we should.
354
00:38:35.610 –> 00:38:41.250
Shlomo Sher: write things before this pushback things like that rarely get resolved.
355
00:38:41.340 –> 00:38:48.630
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean right right, I mean and the ED a case with Star Wars right is about the biggest push back that.
356
00:38:49.530 –> 00:38:50.940
Shlomo Sher: Yes, that there was.
357
00:38:51.270 –> 00:39:01.380
Eliya Cohen: The most down voted reddit like post of all time is when he tries to say like people love gambling people love blue boxes like they’re fun.
358
00:39:02.910 –> 00:39:09.540
A Ashcraft: it’s true but we didn’t what I think I think the main complaint was that was that idea that we had to pay 60 bucks to get in.
359
00:39:09.900 –> 00:39:10.320
Shlomo Sher: Yes.
360
00:39:10.440 –> 00:39:12.300
A Ashcraft: And then we had to also pay.
361
00:39:13.740 –> 00:39:16.710
A Ashcraft: To our then they’re continually asking us to pay more.
362
00:39:17.160 –> 00:39:20.040
A Ashcraft: Right or for this extra stuff yeah.
363
00:39:20.550 –> 00:39:30.420
Shlomo Sher: You know, which makes me also wonder so notice to go back to the I get non number I forgot I forgot what you called it, not the procedural but the other one.
364
00:39:30.570 –> 00:39:32.250
Shlomo Sher: Substantive substantive right.
365
00:39:32.430 –> 00:39:38.130
Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting right right because whatever big anticipated game does come out.
366
00:39:38.580 –> 00:39:47.580
Shlomo Sher: And let’s say it is kind of a star wars game and Star Wars fans have to have that game it’s interesting how the price itself again of the even without the micro transactions.
367
00:39:47.910 –> 00:39:59.850
Shlomo Sher: itself could be potentially exploited because it’s that IP though with out you still have fandom and knowing that people are particularly vulnerable to buying crap.
368
00:40:00.480 –> 00:40:07.920
Shlomo Sher: For whatever their their fans of but it’s still different than then having you in this kind of within the game in the flow state.
369
00:40:08.100 –> 00:40:08.370
Shlomo Sher: yeah.
370
00:40:08.430 –> 00:40:09.510
Eliya Cohen: And and there’s like.
371
00:40:09.720 –> 00:40:11.370
Shlomo Sher: giving you transactions at that point.
372
00:40:11.820 –> 00:40:19.380
Eliya Cohen: yeah and again just to like because I don’t want to demonize any of this too much like a lot of the content is really great and really fun and.
373
00:40:20.340 –> 00:40:30.930
Eliya Cohen: And like, especially when the designers are the ones in charge of micro transactions and the other ones saying like okay i’m the best person i’m the person who’s best situated figure out what the player wants and what’s fun about this game to keep.
374
00:40:30.930 –> 00:40:31.290
A Ashcraft: Trying to.
375
00:40:31.590 –> 00:40:46.470
Eliya Cohen: Design pillars, or whatever, and when they’re in charge of it, they can like they can have a really great integrated system yeah um but right there was another point I was going to say oh yeah they’re also great games with great like micro transactions so like.
376
00:40:48.150 –> 00:40:52.620
Eliya Cohen: The one that I like to point out is ghost runner have you guys played this game.
377
00:40:52.890 –> 00:40:56.340
Eliya Cohen: No highly recommend, if you like, intense game.
378
00:40:57.630 –> 00:41:15.180
Eliya Cohen: So this came out like late 2020 and I got very obsessed with it it’s like a post apocalyptic cyberpunk first person platformer action game we’d like our core elements yeah it’s very hardcore and fast paced i’m so small development team just another like.
379
00:41:16.530 –> 00:41:22.050
Eliya Cohen: reason why micro transactions can be good, because that it allows smaller teams to break into the industry.
380
00:41:23.640 –> 00:41:28.260
Eliya Cohen: it’s at least one way to do that, or maybe i’ve just been like initiated too much.
381
00:41:29.610 –> 00:41:37.500
A Ashcraft: it’s true that’s it’s it’s democratized the the industry there aren’t you know, because you don’t need to try and publish or just say yes i’ll make your game.
382
00:41:37.800 –> 00:41:44.610
A Ashcraft: yeah and then back it with you know, a bunch of a big pile of money, you can actually sort of do that yourself with.
383
00:41:44.640 –> 00:41:51.540
Eliya Cohen: yeah make it free you can even have it like shorter like a DEMO length and then, if it works, you know you don’t have to invest too much time up front.
384
00:41:51.870 –> 00:41:56.910
Eliya Cohen: that’s right yeah so they released a this was like a highly successful game really early on and.
385
00:41:57.450 –> 00:42:06.990
Eliya Cohen: They released a purely cosmetic winter Pack for $1 99 Nice and cheap it’s just like a skin, for your glove and for your sword you’ve got like a katana.
386
00:42:07.710 –> 00:42:15.990
Eliya Cohen: And it’s only available outside of the game, so you have to like you have to stop the game and go to steam and buy this pack, and I think that’s great.
387
00:42:16.590 –> 00:42:25.080
Eliya Cohen: Right I don’t think like you have to take it out of the game, this is just like a paradigm great example I can now support that development team and feel good about it.
388
00:42:25.440 –> 00:42:32.220
A Ashcraft: Right another, so this This brings me one of one of the games that that comes into question in my classes, when we talk about this stuff is.
389
00:42:32.820 –> 00:42:41.040
A Ashcraft: magic the gathering cool and so they’re like well how’s it different from magic the gathering and that’s a really good example of why they you can’t buy more magic cards.
390
00:42:41.550 –> 00:42:55.110
A Ashcraft: Physical magic cards in the in you know, while you’re playing magic the gathering physically now that’s not true if you’re playing it electronically, I believe I can buy it within them, but even so, you can’t do it, while you’re literally in a game with somebody.
391
00:42:56.490 –> 00:43:03.510
Eliya Cohen: Right, it creates like you’ve got these like separate contexts, and even if it’s in the game, or something like that it’s not in the game.
392
00:43:04.020 –> 00:43:06.510
Eliya Cohen: Right right exactly during the games.
393
00:43:06.540 –> 00:43:07.800
A Ashcraft: In the software, but not.
394
00:43:07.830 –> 00:43:10.260
A Ashcraft: right on during gameplay so.
395
00:43:10.320 –> 00:43:27.120
Shlomo Sher: I want to ask really quick, because this focus on I think it’s pretty clear right that your chances of buying things because your vulnerabilities are being exploited are much lower if you’re buying the game item outside of the game right.
396
00:43:28.530 –> 00:43:38.970
Shlomo Sher: But you guys both agree that sometimes it’s cool to do it inside the game, in fact, it could be really annoying to have to I mean God, I have to go to steam to buy like a $2 little item for my game.
397
00:43:40.860 –> 00:43:48.750
Shlomo Sher: You know, it seems like so i’m kind of wondering what then is it that’s going to be essentially with in the game.
398
00:43:51.210 –> 00:43:59.820
Shlomo Sher: That the deciding factor of whether it’s too much to have it in the game right of whether you really need to move it out of game.
399
00:44:01.290 –> 00:44:01.980
Eliya Cohen: yeah well.
400
00:44:02.340 –> 00:44:03.000
A Ashcraft: that’s good question.
401
00:44:03.630 –> 00:44:12.030
Eliya Cohen: that’s that is a really good and hard question right i’m even just placing it in the menu, though, like it can be in the game.
402
00:44:12.510 –> 00:44:24.540
Eliya Cohen: Just taking that slight step I don’t know if anyone’s done, the thing i’m about to say, but like if there were a way to signal to the like, if you could walk up to a store in the game, like a physical building or something or sorry a.
403
00:44:25.140 –> 00:44:38.250
Eliya Cohen: Virtual building and and it had some sort of symbol to communicate to the player that this was like a real transaction that would just like a little click in your head, you know that would be like okay i’m walking to the telephone now.
404
00:44:41.670 –> 00:44:42.990
Eliya Cohen: But yeah hard question.
405
00:44:43.080 –> 00:44:43.320
yeah.
406
00:44:44.640 –> 00:44:51.540
Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting right in that case the the whole point is just to remind the player that this, you are engaging in a financial transaction.
407
00:44:51.900 –> 00:44:52.800
Eliya Cohen: yeah um.
408
00:44:52.860 –> 00:45:00.180
Shlomo Sher: And can’t just a pop up just tell you, you know hey look reminder, you are engaging in a financial transaction is that is that not enough.
409
00:45:00.630 –> 00:45:01.950
Eliya Cohen: Maybe it is I don’t know.
410
00:45:01.950 –> 00:45:03.660
Eliya Cohen: I don’t know it’s annoying to.
411
00:45:04.440 –> 00:45:04.710
Right.
412
00:45:06.210 –> 00:45:17.790
A Ashcraft: So right right, the idea is not to annoy people but, but I was just reading an interesting article called I don’t remember who wrote it, but it was an economist and he was talking about how choices are bad.
413
00:45:18.540 –> 00:45:19.170
A Ashcraft: Yes.
414
00:45:19.740 –> 00:45:34.350
A Ashcraft: Which is, which is counterintuitive to all people making games right because you know we’ve been, we think that choices are interesting and choices are good if they’re if they’re interesting kinds of choices, but he just says all choices are bad, and the reason behind it is.
415
00:45:36.180 –> 00:45:42.090
A Ashcraft: there’s two reasons, but but, but the one that’s relevant to this conversation is that it’s it slows everything down.
416
00:45:43.500 –> 00:45:53.820
A Ashcraft: And that actually could be a valuable thing to do in this situation right that’s may be all that you need to do is basically just put one more choice or a couple more choices.
417
00:45:53.880 –> 00:46:09.330
Eliya Cohen: that’s actually a great idea like I haven’t thought about that, like if you maybe it’s better to have like seven things in your store than just one thing or something like that, because it makes you take just a moment, even if it’s highly immersive and all other ways.
418
00:46:09.570 –> 00:46:21.330
Eliya Cohen: yeah or integrated into the game, but if you’re like wait do I want this this that are that and it’s not done in the typical deceptive way we’re like one thing is ridiculously overpriced and so you would never buy it.
419
00:46:22.380 –> 00:46:22.890
Shlomo Sher: Right.
420
00:46:22.920 –> 00:46:24.720
Eliya Cohen: Yes, interest yes of course speaking.
421
00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:28.110
Shlomo Sher: Speaking of yeah it’s interesting that stores, where you.
422
00:46:29.340 –> 00:46:40.740
Shlomo Sher: i’ve had experiences in stores I started playing this gambling game I forgot what it’s called but I mean it’s it’s when I say gambling game i’m trying to actually look at my phone to see what the hell this game was called.
423
00:46:42.000 –> 00:46:42.420
Shlomo Sher: But.
424
00:46:43.470 –> 00:46:47.160
Shlomo Sher: What what was interesting about it, oh yeah I coined master.
425
00:46:48.720 –> 00:46:52.320
Shlomo Sher: was interesting about essentially it’s a it’s a.
426
00:46:53.610 –> 00:46:54.540
Shlomo Sher: got a slot machine.
427
00:46:55.230 –> 00:46:57.270
Shlomo Sher: And the game is literally a slot machine.
428
00:46:57.480 –> 00:47:06.420
Shlomo Sher: And all the micro transactions are essentially you know you can get more spain’s you can get it’s interesting because i’ve never had anything kind of get me.
429
00:47:07.140 –> 00:47:26.400
Shlomo Sher: So invested as a damn slot machine which is entirely based on luck and and whatever money, and I can win spins or money to spend to build that my village essentially is the way it goes and once i’ve done my village it’s the next village it’s such a stupid game.
430
00:47:28.140 –> 00:47:29.370
Shlomo Sher: And yet I played.
431
00:47:29.370 –> 00:47:29.790
A Ashcraft: And yeah.
432
00:47:29.820 –> 00:47:37.740
Shlomo Sher: weeks right, but the micro transactions on it gave me pause because I would could never figure out what was the best deal.
433
00:47:38.700 –> 00:47:39.420
Eliya Cohen: And that’s it.
434
00:47:39.600 –> 00:47:40.290
Eliya Cohen: I love that.
435
00:47:40.890 –> 00:47:52.050
Shlomo Sher: You know, because i’m like Do I need to get more spins or is it better money or the nav the feed my magic animals that gave me and it’s interesting some cases right just having.
436
00:47:53.070 –> 00:48:02.670
Shlomo Sher: Enough there so that you can’t simply say you know, like do I want to buy the 10 spins or the 50 spins or 100 spins then i’m assuming.
437
00:48:02.970 –> 00:48:11.490
Shlomo Sher: You know, or the best value 1000 spins right, I mean then i’m assuming whatever is going to be the most expensive provides me the best value I don’t need to think about it.
438
00:48:11.970 –> 00:48:20.880
Shlomo Sher: The minute I need to think between qualitatively different things now maybe I don’t want to make a mistake and maybe I want to pause and kind of think what’s right that’d be good for me.
439
00:48:21.180 –> 00:48:22.230
Eliya Cohen: yeah I like this idea.
440
00:48:23.640 –> 00:48:23.880
A Ashcraft: yeah.
441
00:48:23.910 –> 00:48:25.590
Shlomo Sher: Though it’s still a shitty game to.
442
00:48:26.100 –> 00:48:26.520
Shlomo Sher: play.
443
00:48:26.580 –> 00:48:27.180
Eliya Cohen: I know.
444
00:48:27.570 –> 00:48:29.460
A Ashcraft: And yet, you are, you are deep into it.
445
00:48:29.910 –> 00:48:37.080
Eliya Cohen: yeah we have such a desire to see like a pattern like show up on the screen that we’re like okay next time I don’t i’m just making something.
446
00:48:37.410 –> 00:48:37.650
Shlomo Sher: No.
447
00:48:37.710 –> 00:48:38.430
A Ashcraft: No it’s true.
448
00:48:38.820 –> 00:48:41.820
Shlomo Sher: I was going to write about this game, at some point, that it has all these.
449
00:48:42.180 –> 00:48:52.170
Shlomo Sher: things in it like you can read other people’s villages, or rather it randomly has you reading other people’s villages which makes you feel like you’re competing against other people.
450
00:48:52.470 –> 00:48:59.100
Shlomo Sher: It makes you feel like you’ve got ahead and you’re getting ahead, and here we are at the created desires right.
451
00:48:59.580 –> 00:49:00.870
Eliya Cohen: I have an example for you.
452
00:49:00.870 –> 00:49:01.770
Shlomo Sher: guys okay.
453
00:49:01.800 –> 00:49:02.460
A Ashcraft: yeah go for it.
454
00:49:02.700 –> 00:49:03.000
Shlomo Sher: give it.
455
00:49:03.030 –> 00:49:07.710
Eliya Cohen: Okay, so this i’m just gonna start off by saying it wasn’t implemented in the game and you’ll see why.
456
00:49:08.940 –> 00:49:24.030
Eliya Cohen: So in 2015 activision patented this algorithm for call of duty World War Two a matching algorithm so like typically a matching algorithm will just like power players randomly or by skill like chess.com or, at most shooting games.
457
00:49:26.100 –> 00:49:38.820
Eliya Cohen: But they’re like you know here’s an idea what if we pair paying players with non paying players basically guarantee that the penguins will win not tell them really about this it’s.
458
00:49:38.850 –> 00:49:40.650
Eliya Cohen: Written somewhere, you could go look.
459
00:49:41.010 –> 00:49:52.110
Eliya Cohen: So we’re transparent and and then reward the the non or so bombard them with advertisements, with the specific weapon that they lost to the non paying players.
460
00:49:52.980 –> 00:49:59.310
Eliya Cohen: And then, once they buy it put them on the reward them by putting them on the other side of the algorithm so they’ll win every time.
461
00:50:01.470 –> 00:50:02.460
Eliya Cohen: awesome all right.
462
00:50:03.450 –> 00:50:03.900
Eliya Cohen: So yeah.
463
00:50:03.930 –> 00:50:08.850
Eliya Cohen: not implemented in the game, I know it’s kind of genius I, like all this kind of stuff like if you give them.
464
00:50:09.390 –> 00:50:10.830
A Ashcraft: Evil geniuses right.
465
00:50:11.070 –> 00:50:19.770
A Ashcraft: yeah but yeah I mean that that definitely falls into feeling just dishonest there’s there’s something dishonest about.
466
00:50:20.040 –> 00:50:20.310
A Ashcraft: Right.
467
00:50:20.460 –> 00:50:28.290
A Ashcraft: Even though you can you can dig and find the information nobody’s going to it so it’s at the very least lying by by omission.
468
00:50:28.800 –> 00:50:45.660
Eliya Cohen: I think it gets up both things it’s both a transparency thing and a bit of in the flow like taking advantage of your desire to win thing might one of my friends from college she’s a she writes about games for wired now Cecilia anastasio so she.
469
00:50:46.740 –> 00:50:47.640
Eliya Cohen: She really so.
470
00:50:47.970 –> 00:50:48.870
Eliya Cohen: she’s awesome.
471
00:50:50.490 –> 00:50:52.110
Shlomo Sher: I would love to interview or she.
472
00:50:52.110 –> 00:50:52.620
Eliya Cohen: Is yeah.
473
00:50:52.650 –> 00:50:54.600
Shlomo Sher: awesome she’s she’s my favorite.
474
00:50:55.740 –> 00:50:56.310
Shlomo Sher: She wrote this.
475
00:50:56.670 –> 00:50:58.740
Shlomo Sher: Is my favorite game journalist yes he’s just really.
476
00:50:58.800 –> 00:51:06.570
Eliya Cohen: she’s so good yeah she’s great um so she wrote this review of cyberpunk I don’t know if you’ve read it, but she starts out by saying.
477
00:51:07.020 –> 00:51:21.120
Eliya Cohen: I think this is perfect like I couldn’t have said this better and you can’t squeeze a video game like you can an apple to check its quality, but it wouldn’t matter anyway because game publishers publishers would just don’t get it enough shiny walks to disguise any imperfections.
478
00:51:22.830 –> 00:51:36.450
Eliya Cohen: yeah the deception right right um yeah so there’s this transparency issue and they’ve sort of mitigated it a little bit by introducing the star ratings.
479
00:51:37.470 –> 00:51:46.260
Eliya Cohen: Last year and the year before or a few years before that, for micro transactions and random items, but I think it’s still persists this issue because.
480
00:51:48.480 –> 00:51:59.550
Eliya Cohen: You know game companies will give youtubers and streamers demos of their games for review and it won’t include I think very important features like micro transactions they’ll come out with reviews.
481
00:51:59.790 –> 00:52:00.780
Eliya Cohen: People will buy the game.
482
00:52:02.520 –> 00:52:10.590
Eliya Cohen: And then, not only that updates, so this is another special thing about the video game industry is that yeah they are more like services.
483
00:52:11.730 –> 00:52:18.180
Eliya Cohen: And People keep saying this and it’s there’s there’s a you know it’s great because we can update and fix problems with the game.
484
00:52:18.570 –> 00:52:31.140
Eliya Cohen: But there isn’t any restriction on this to not put micro transactions in or loop boxes and later so there’s this question like you know, have you undermined my consent to the original transaction if you introduce something like that.
485
00:52:32.010 –> 00:52:32.460
Right.
486
00:52:33.480 –> 00:52:36.240
Shlomo Sher: interesting new so new elements.
487
00:52:37.710 –> 00:52:46.110
Shlomo Sher: And since I mean you would think of micro transactions are simply an additional extra element that you don’t need to you don’t need to take advantage of right.
488
00:52:47.610 –> 00:52:59.100
A Ashcraft: And it’s true if I feel like i’ve gotten the complete game I don’t have any issues but it’s in those moments where it feel the game feels incomplete and they’re asking me for more money.
489
00:53:00.480 –> 00:53:01.140
Shlomo Sher: Right.
490
00:53:02.640 –> 00:53:07.350
Eliya Cohen: yeah there’s a nitro fueled is so crash team racing night trophy old is an example of.
491
00:53:08.220 –> 00:53:19.200
Eliya Cohen: game that did exactly what I just said, like with the reviews and with the update a month later, after his release and they also had explicit interviews where they were like oh don’t worry we’ll never monetize it that way.
492
00:53:19.800 –> 00:53:21.090
A Ashcraft: Right right right.
493
00:53:21.120 –> 00:53:25.350
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah yeah This seems to be like totally different bad things to do.
494
00:53:27.000 –> 00:53:32.070
Shlomo Sher: The transparency stuff and yeah that the play testing to.
495
00:53:33.510 –> 00:53:37.710
Shlomo Sher: yeah the leaving the micro transactions out is really interesting.
496
00:53:38.190 –> 00:53:39.300
Shlomo Sher: I did would do that for.
497
00:53:39.300 –> 00:53:44.670
A Ashcraft: reviewers and that and that’s interesting because that’s basically they’ve hacked the review process.
498
00:53:44.670 –> 00:53:45.960
Eliya Cohen: yeah right they.
499
00:53:46.560 –> 00:53:57.510
A Ashcraft: They they know that that these magazines want to get the reviews in as quickly as possible and can’t wait for wait wait to buy the thing off the shelves or out of the store.
500
00:53:57.990 –> 00:54:02.040
A Ashcraft: Yesterday, and so they’ve hacked that process.
501
00:54:05.160 –> 00:54:07.320
Eliya Cohen: it’s so sad to me because, like.
502
00:54:07.350 –> 00:54:17.310
Eliya Cohen: The game community is such a like a collaborative community and like people who make games play games people who play games contribute to making games.
503
00:54:18.690 –> 00:54:26.460
Eliya Cohen: And that’s so sad it’s not a traditional producer consumer relationship and so treating it like one is is a mistake.
504
00:54:27.330 –> 00:54:40.380
A Ashcraft: So that’s super interesting there by itself right the this idea that our our industry is is in some ways, very different because of the sort of the sort of Community feeling to it like.
505
00:54:40.890 –> 00:54:42.420
A Ashcraft: i’ve noticed that as well that that.
506
00:54:43.650 –> 00:54:54.480
A Ashcraft: You know there’s a handful of game designers that people know about and care about unlike you know movie directors, where there’s a lot of them that we know about and care about or movie stars movie stars can sell a movie.
507
00:54:55.350 –> 00:55:10.590
A Ashcraft: it’s unlikely for a movie designer or a game designer to be able to sell a game it doesn’t happen very often that that there is that sort of star game designer sort of thing, but at the same time, there are these franchises that are stars is the franchise’s themselves and.
508
00:55:12.420 –> 00:55:16.230
A Ashcraft: And we feel because we’ve been playing him and we there’s a sort of.
509
00:55:18.930 –> 00:55:30.240
A Ashcraft: Sam ashwell talks about the sort of Meta agency that we have where, as a as players of these Games, we have this communication pattern back and forth between the developers.
510
00:55:30.570 –> 00:55:44.490
A Ashcraft: And we can sort of we can influence how the game, the next version of the game is going to go through you know you know reddit or or in your reviews or any any of these sorts of things we have this this this agency.
511
00:55:45.690 –> 00:55:49.110
A Ashcraft: That that can be that can be undermined.
512
00:55:49.920 –> 00:56:01.440
Eliya Cohen: right and it generates special like norms in that relationship, because I feel like maybe not a friendship, but something closer to that than I do it for like the chip industry.
513
00:56:02.040 –> 00:56:11.940
Eliya Cohen: Right um, and so I feel especially it’s like you know it feels worse when a friend does something to add to you, then, if someone else that you didn’t know did the same thing right.
514
00:56:12.240 –> 00:56:14.280
Eliya Cohen: Obviously, so.
515
00:56:14.460 –> 00:56:15.870
Eliya Cohen: And that’s what it feels like I think.
516
00:56:16.590 –> 00:56:23.280
Shlomo Sher: You know, I have to say i’m completely fascinated by using the influence and reviewers.
517
00:56:24.330 –> 00:56:27.570
Shlomo Sher: On this set and I I i’d like to have a feature.
518
00:56:27.630 –> 00:56:34.110
Shlomo Sher: Also, specifically kind of about the usage of our viewers, you know.
519
00:56:35.340 –> 00:56:37.290
Shlomo Sher: I was, I was especially thinking of.
520
00:56:38.430 –> 00:56:45.990
Shlomo Sher: games like you know a lot of free to play games, where you play the game, but you play one round, and then you got ads and then you play the round again.
521
00:56:46.200 –> 00:56:58.290
Shlomo Sher: And then you got ads and they’re all trying to sell other games which is frankly a model i’m still confused about because the other thing to do the same thing, but I can see someone getting a review of it and they left the the ads out.
522
00:56:58.860 –> 00:56:59.460
Shlomo Sher: And it’s just a.
523
00:56:59.550 –> 00:57:02.040
Shlomo Sher: totally different experience oh yeah.
524
00:57:02.070 –> 00:57:02.430
yeah.
525
00:57:03.810 –> 00:57:14.370
Shlomo Sher: And it’s interesting of what, if this is kind of part of the responsibilities of a game companies to it’s weird because when you like sell a TV show.
526
00:57:14.850 –> 00:57:30.780
Shlomo Sher: let’s say you, you know you’re going to send let’s say the TV show to reviewers obviously it’s not going to have commercials in it, because you expect let’s say if it’s on TV will you expect they’ll have commercials and if it’s streaming you expected it won’t have commercials.
527
00:57:30.810 –> 00:57:32.370
A Ashcraft: I guess right and then and then we’re.
528
00:57:32.550 –> 00:57:36.660
A Ashcraft: Then we feel betrayed when HBO shows commercials because we’re already paying for HBO.
529
00:57:36.870 –> 00:57:37.620
Shlomo Sher: that’s right.
530
00:57:37.710 –> 00:57:39.360
Eliya Cohen: Right, this new thing that kills me.
531
00:57:39.810 –> 00:57:41.400
A Ashcraft: Right it’s a betrayal.
532
00:57:41.880 –> 00:57:43.590
Eliya Cohen: Is it is.
533
00:57:43.650 –> 00:57:44.100
Shlomo Sher: It is.
534
00:57:44.610 –> 00:57:52.650
Shlomo Sher: It yeah it’s interesting because in a way kind of feels like a little bit for the micro transactions oh yeah right.
535
00:57:54.180 –> 00:57:54.480
Shlomo Sher: Now.
536
00:57:54.660 –> 00:57:57.240
A Ashcraft: And and weirdly weirdly normalizing it right.
537
00:57:57.720 –> 00:58:00.120
A Ashcraft: we’re just getting used to this, and this is the way it’s going to be.
538
00:58:00.750 –> 00:58:01.830
Eliya Cohen: yeah that’s right.
539
00:58:02.220 –> 00:58:14.250
Shlomo Sher: Though Member ID didn’t netflix try it for a little bit always floating the idea of having a good general any additional ads by having commercials for a while and it just I mean customers.
540
00:58:15.060 –> 00:58:17.250
Shlomo Sher: You know, at a super super negative reaction.
541
00:58:18.420 –> 00:58:20.160
Shlomo Sher: Then they never instituted it they kind of.
542
00:58:20.190 –> 00:58:20.520
Eliya Cohen: yeah.
543
00:58:20.550 –> 00:58:22.710
Shlomo Sher: They talked about it, you know that.
544
00:58:23.760 –> 00:58:25.920
A Ashcraft: there’s other channels of do it other other.
545
00:58:26.940 –> 00:58:28.500
A Ashcraft: Pay channels to do plenty.
546
00:58:28.920 –> 00:58:30.300
Shlomo Sher: Right right right.
547
00:58:30.720 –> 00:58:31.380
Shlomo Sher: But have you heard.
548
00:58:32.340 –> 00:58:33.180
Shlomo Sher: A go go ahead Emily.
549
00:58:33.390 –> 00:58:35.430
Eliya Cohen: Have you heard about the BMW thing.
550
00:58:36.180 –> 00:58:42.870
Eliya Cohen: No um I don’t know if they actually did this, but there were some articles, where they were at least floating around the idea of.
551
00:58:44.370 –> 00:58:54.570
Eliya Cohen: So you buy the luxury car, but all the luxury features, you have to pay it for the individual part so like your seat warmer like you don’t need that to drive the cars.
552
00:58:54.660 –> 00:58:57.000
Shlomo Sher: right but isn’t that great because.
553
00:58:57.030 –> 00:58:58.620
Eliya Cohen: I can get it exactly.
554
00:58:58.920 –> 00:59:01.530
Shlomo Sher: You know, like I love the seat warmer right.
555
00:59:01.800 –> 00:59:02.550
Eliya Cohen: But yeah.
556
00:59:02.580 –> 00:59:06.450
Shlomo Sher: You know uh you know, like tons of people don’t use the seat warmer.
557
00:59:06.480 –> 00:59:07.380
A Ashcraft: I would never use it.
558
00:59:07.470 –> 00:59:10.500
Shlomo Sher: Right, so you know it allows you to customize everything.
559
00:59:10.680 –> 00:59:11.910
Shlomo Sher: Right notice at that point.
560
00:59:12.030 –> 00:59:17.280
Eliya Cohen: But is it cheaper to start, or is it the same and you’re just like breaking up the car.
561
00:59:19.080 –> 00:59:34.890
Shlomo Sher: Again notice and i’m looking for an analog and video games, where it is kind of intrigued by so you so or maybe lots of video games are like this now, I mean maybe the Star Wars came was like that right you’re selling I mean 60 bucks does not cover costs of development right.
562
00:59:35.610 –> 00:59:38.520
Eliya Cohen: that’s what they tell us, I don’t know if that’s true yeah.
563
00:59:38.880 –> 00:59:40.320
Eliya Cohen: I mean let’s assume it is yeah.
564
00:59:40.590 –> 00:59:56.130
Shlomo Sher: yeah let’s assume if it if it did cover it back in the day when it was priced 60 bucks certainly inflation and the size of games etc yeah has made 60 bucks no longer.
565
00:59:56.490 –> 01:00:03.210
Eliya Cohen: yeah like the first HALO took like 40 people on a development team, I think, and now it’s like hundreds right so.
566
01:00:03.480 –> 01:00:04.320
Eliya Cohen: And yeah.
567
01:00:04.500 –> 01:00:07.560
Shlomo Sher: How long is 60 bucks been like how much again costs.
568
01:00:07.740 –> 01:00:08.460
Eliya Cohen: yeah like.
569
01:00:08.490 –> 01:00:11.370
Eliya Cohen: It has gone up a little bit yeah maybe you know um.
570
01:00:11.670 –> 01:00:21.270
A Ashcraft: yeah it’s been well so there’s a mitigating factor, and this is that when that when games first started costing 60 bucks there was a giant push back for it at the time.
571
01:00:22.740 –> 01:00:27.510
A Ashcraft: But at the same time, they were also being sold in stores, so they were box product.
572
01:00:27.690 –> 01:00:30.120
A Ashcraft: And 30% of that went to the retailer.
573
01:00:30.210 –> 01:00:39.690
A Ashcraft: Right 50% of it went to the retailer 50% of it went to the distributor and then 25% went to the the publisher and developer when and whatever whatever split that they have.
574
01:00:41.040 –> 01:00:41.550
A Ashcraft: And so now.
575
01:00:41.880 –> 01:00:42.780
Shlomo Sher: very different.
576
01:00:42.840 –> 01:01:03.000
A Ashcraft: And that’s very different now and it’s much less expensive to to publish a game right because it was downloadable and and and so it’s that’s allowed the price to stay at 60 bucks, which is what they what they what they had finally decided was what people would pay for a game.
577
01:01:03.900 –> 01:01:19.830
Shlomo Sher: Right so it’s not as if micro transactions, then so we kind of see where micro transactions fit in here right if my transactions are absolute necessity, then maybe that justifies a certain understanding from customers to kind of.
578
01:01:20.340 –> 01:01:20.730
Eliya Cohen: yeah.
579
01:01:20.790 –> 01:01:25.440
Eliya Cohen: You know, even if they’re not a necessity, there are these other good things that they that they lead to and.
580
01:01:25.440 –> 01:01:33.270
Eliya Cohen: So we should be understand it, like several years ago, I was much more quickly about this, you know, like.
581
01:01:33.870 –> 01:01:34.230
Learn.
582
01:01:35.340 –> 01:01:37.860
Eliya Cohen: slash just get used to it and submit to the.
583
01:01:38.490 –> 01:01:40.590
Shlomo Sher: Right that’s or you know so.
584
01:01:40.710 –> 01:01:50.550
Shlomo Sher: Also, maybe you know that game companies are also gotten feedback about what’s not acceptable about some of these things over time that’s awesome.
585
01:01:50.550 –> 01:01:50.940
Shlomo Sher: yeah.
586
01:01:51.000 –> 01:01:59.760
Eliya Cohen: awesome it’s mostly just about how they’re doing it in some ways that again they can do this it’s permissible I think there’s just something like.
587
01:02:00.600 –> 01:02:03.450
Eliya Cohen: Come on, right I think there’s room in morality for.
588
01:02:03.450 –> 01:02:13.800
Eliya Cohen: A little bit more Gray area like there are people who are doing more than they have to and they’re like the heroes, that are the great people, and then there are people who are doing the bare minimum.
589
01:02:15.810 –> 01:02:19.530
Eliya Cohen: they’re doing all the permissible things but there’s still like people you don’t want to hang out with.
590
01:02:20.820 –> 01:02:21.660
A Ashcraft: Right right right.
591
01:02:22.200 –> 01:02:24.660
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so so let’s.
592
01:02:24.900 –> 01:02:26.790
Shlomo Sher: Any, by the way, i’m checking on.
593
01:02:27.210 –> 01:02:27.810
rooms.
594
01:02:30.270 –> 01:02:33.810
A Ashcraft: yeah we’re we’re probably about 15 minutes five zero.
595
01:02:34.080 –> 01:02:37.620
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so let’s okay so let’s let’s go with this m.
596
01:02:38.760 –> 01:02:43.950
Shlomo Sher: O le tell me where you wouldn’t go and then and then i’ll ask a question that i’m going to cut it later.
597
01:02:45.060 –> 01:02:48.990
Shlomo Sher: So we talked about this idea of corrupting player values.
598
01:02:49.170 –> 01:02:49.890
Shlomo Sher: yeah.
599
01:02:50.100 –> 01:03:00.240
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so so let’s do that right so so ellie you said look, you said expectation isn’t The only problem with micro transactions right that micro transactions elude boxes.
600
01:03:00.780 –> 01:03:08.100
Shlomo Sher: Corrupt player values now i’m dying to understand what that means, what do you think what happens, what do you have in mind here.
601
01:03:08.700 –> 01:03:27.480
Eliya Cohen: Okay, so I don’t yeah, this is a hedgie response it’s the the basic thought is it’s analogous it should ring you know, like violent video game bells and it is analogous to that old concern that you know violent games represent.
602
01:03:28.530 –> 01:03:39.690
Eliya Cohen: Violence, as the best or only means to success and because games are powerful teachers that can corrupt our values in some way and make you know make criminals out of us, or something like that.
603
01:03:40.650 –> 01:03:52.200
Eliya Cohen: And I think most people now agree that that’s an unsound argument in some way so gamers were never really themselves worried about it and most people have a good sense for the difference between reality and fiction.
604
01:03:52.770 –> 01:04:07.710
Eliya Cohen: Even kids the kid like i’ve talked to tons of kids who are like i’m going to go kill some people but it’s just a game, you know so they’re like they know and and not only just the anecdotal evidence there’s lots of evidence, suggesting that.
605
01:04:09.270 –> 01:04:25.080
Eliya Cohen: violent games don’t make people violent maybe like maybe they make you less sensitive to violent images, maybe there are some negative or positive up shots to that, but, and I think there’s like a great article in the Guardian.
606
01:04:26.400 –> 01:04:42.180
Eliya Cohen: Just that points at like 23 studies all having to do with this so there’s an analogous worry for micro transactions and blue boxes, which is so let’s say like a spin to win or a pay to win game is one that represents payments or chances, the best are only means to success.
607
01:04:43.410 –> 01:04:56.820
Eliya Cohen: Now, because games are powerful teachers that can corrupt our values and make us less likely to put like effort into things in the real world it corrupts like a traditional work ethic, this is a This is like a basic argument, I think that comes from the Bible.
608
01:04:57.840 –> 01:05:13.650
Eliya Cohen: That against gambling that it corrupts a traditional work ethic there’s more to that, but um now there have been articles that are coming out recently, like last year recently that games with loot boxes do actually make players, more likely to gamble in the future.
609
01:05:14.730 –> 01:05:19.080
Eliya Cohen: and even more so with younger players so.
610
01:05:20.250 –> 01:05:30.360
Eliya Cohen: i’m inclined, just to be careful about this i’m inclined to think that yeah maybe it does corrupt I don’t know about corrupting a traditional work ethic that’s one step farther than what I.
611
01:05:30.360 –> 01:05:32.370
Eliya Cohen: just said, but it does.
612
01:05:33.540 –> 01:05:40.080
Eliya Cohen: and, probably, we need more corroborating evidence, just like in the violence case we have tons of studies that are all suggesting.
613
01:05:41.430 –> 01:05:52.950
Eliya Cohen: suggesting this but yeah it was it’s an argument that i’m floating around and that i’m interested in, but I don’t know how far it goes yeah what are your intuitions of how to hit.
614
01:05:54.690 –> 01:05:56.460
Shlomo Sher: Andy do you want to take that or.
615
01:05:56.580 –> 01:05:57.090
A Ashcraft: yeah.
616
01:05:57.150 –> 01:05:59.040
A Ashcraft: No i’ve never honestly thought about it.
617
01:05:59.640 –> 01:06:09.930
Shlomo Sher: I think it’s I mean it’s interesting, the idea that the more you engage and, mind you, this will be different for Luke boxes and transact and micro transactions.
618
01:06:10.110 –> 01:06:15.090
Shlomo Sher: Right interesting because I was thinking micro transactions.
619
01:06:16.830 –> 01:06:28.740
Shlomo Sher: are a constant way to maybe encourage consumerism righty and encourage it’s it’s you know I want to say materialism, though it’s interesting, of course, these are not material things right.
620
01:06:29.190 –> 01:06:30.150
Eliya Cohen: But yeah maybe yeah.
621
01:06:30.510 –> 01:06:31.110
Eliya Cohen: yeah but.
622
01:06:31.800 –> 01:06:41.070
Shlomo Sher: But it’s still the constant desire to feel like oh it’s not enough, I need another skin, I need another car for my rocket league.
623
01:06:42.240 –> 01:06:55.380
Shlomo Sher: I need another weapon, I need another this I need another that to get made and that might be more convincing than the dough again the loop boxes thing I don’t know about work ethic, but can’t bling sure.
624
01:06:56.100 –> 01:06:57.180
Eliya Cohen: yeah I don’t know yeah.
625
01:06:57.480 –> 01:07:02.460
A Ashcraft: As a collector you know I I feel like I don’t have a leg to stand on because I, you know.
626
01:07:02.640 –> 01:07:09.450
A Ashcraft: Look i’ve got you know 40,000 comic books and and probably 150 hot wheels around, and you know.
627
01:07:10.800 –> 01:07:24.420
A Ashcraft: So I don’t know whether that’s certainly as a kid and and you know Shlomo you’ve got your boy is probably similar about this there’s like if there’s, a thing that he’s into he would have all of it.
628
01:07:24.840 –> 01:07:30.300
Shlomo Sher: yeah if he could have the entire Harry Potter if he could just own Harry Potter he would be very happy right.
629
01:07:30.330 –> 01:07:31.800
Eliya Cohen: yeah right, I mean we.
630
01:07:31.920 –> 01:07:41.370
A Ashcraft: need him to grow out of that sort of stuff after a while we realized that you know that the thing that we’re into last year may not be the thing that we’re into this year.
631
01:07:42.330 –> 01:07:51.780
Shlomo Sher: yeah but I don’t know, but the habit of shopping the habit the habit of continuously learning looking for.
632
01:07:53.040 –> 01:08:04.440
Shlomo Sher: Expecting for things to be a little bit better, but can you because you can buy that additional thing right that that is the and I don’t know i’m looking buying additional things a lot of times to make things better.
633
01:08:04.890 –> 01:08:05.280
Shlomo Sher: You know.
634
01:08:05.460 –> 01:08:06.450
Eliya Cohen: yeah yeah yeah.
635
01:08:06.480 –> 01:08:11.040
A Ashcraft: I can’t assign them, I think we just learned to be more discerning about that sort of stuff because you know.
636
01:08:11.250 –> 01:08:22.590
A Ashcraft: that’s something we we we get experience with we’re like Oh, you know that thing that I bought it didn’t it didn’t scratch the itch so now I don’t need to Now I know I need to buy more of those things.
637
01:08:23.310 –> 01:08:28.170
Shlomo Sher: except when you have an itch that is you’re conditioned to keep scratching.
638
01:08:28.620 –> 01:08:29.460
Eliya Cohen: And that I.
639
01:08:29.910 –> 01:08:33.600
A Ashcraft: That but that only works when it when it gets satisfied once in a while.
640
01:08:34.920 –> 01:08:43.140
A Ashcraft: If it’s yes find you will stop you will you will stop the Skinner box effect doesn’t doesn’t persist yeah if you don’t get something once in a while out of it.
641
01:08:44.400 –> 01:08:48.120
Shlomo Sher: Sure, though, you know again i’m thinking about you know.
642
01:08:49.140 –> 01:08:55.320
Shlomo Sher: You know i’m thinking about people who shop a lot for the sake of shopping, you know.
643
01:08:57.090 –> 01:09:01.530
Shlomo Sher: Where their closet is full of clothes and shoes that.
644
01:09:01.890 –> 01:09:15.210
Shlomo Sher: They really, really don’t need shopping itself has become becomes an activity it’s not exactly the same thing here right because I mean the activity here is not exactly getting micro transaction but it’s sometimes could be with things like skins.
645
01:09:15.270 –> 01:09:16.140
Shlomo Sher: kind of like shop, you know.
646
01:09:16.260 –> 01:09:17.100
A Ashcraft: I enjoy shopping.
647
01:09:17.910 –> 01:09:26.160
Shlomo Sher: Right, but you know, again I think there’s a point where it goes too far and I don’t have I don’t have a way to the find that point.
648
01:09:26.490 –> 01:09:39.180
Shlomo Sher: Again this is this is, if you are corrupting player values, this is, this is the direction that I thought of you know and i’m not saying it actually happens, but you know, as opposed to the to the gambling court.
649
01:09:39.660 –> 01:09:41.220
Eliya Cohen: yeah and is it yeah.
650
01:09:41.490 –> 01:09:46.620
A Ashcraft: I was to say because that sort of gets towards us gets us around towards things like.
651
01:09:47.880 –> 01:09:56.400
A Ashcraft: alcoholism or any sort of addiction right so we’re we’re sort of back around do is it is it enabling sort of sort of addictive behavior yeah.
652
01:09:56.910 –> 01:09:57.660
Shlomo Sher: yeah maybe.
653
01:09:58.830 –> 01:10:01.680
Shlomo Sher: Okay Okay, at least so last question.
654
01:10:02.790 –> 01:10:08.640
Shlomo Sher: What should be the takeaways here what what should players, a good companies take from this whole possibility of exploitation.
655
01:10:09.630 –> 01:10:20.430
Eliya Cohen: um so I touched on it a little bit earlier, but I think the biggest takeaway is really general it’s, it has to do with this collaborative community that we have and to not.
656
01:10:21.120 –> 01:10:29.790
Eliya Cohen: take advantage of each other, because I think everyone will lose in the end, like that and there’s a responsibility on both sides it’s not just the gaming producers that.
657
01:10:30.660 –> 01:10:39.930
Eliya Cohen: have to mitigate mitigate damages the consumer, also has to you know help themselves too so yeah I think the main thing is.
658
01:10:41.550 –> 01:10:43.680
Eliya Cohen: Get back to that collaborative space.
659
01:10:45.420 –> 01:10:45.840
Shlomo Sher: All right.
660
01:10:45.870 –> 01:10:51.210
Shlomo Sher: Great cool all right ellie, thank you for being on our show up.
661
01:10:52.080 –> 01:10:53.190
Shlomo Sher: Where can people find you.
662
01:10:54.300 –> 01:10:56.910
Shlomo Sher: What do you want people to find you those people that want to find you.
663
01:10:57.600 –> 01:10:59.010
Eliya Cohen: are like my website, or something.
664
01:10:59.100 –> 01:11:00.690
Shlomo Sher: or anything like that yeah and he said.
665
01:11:00.690 –> 01:11:02.070
Eliya Cohen: I type it in for you or.
666
01:11:03.330 –> 01:11:07.350
A Ashcraft: Do I mean it’s it’s one of these things do you want people to follow you on Twitter, or do you want.
667
01:11:07.380 –> 01:11:08.280
Eliya Cohen: yeah oh yeah.
668
01:11:08.520 –> 01:11:10.980
Eliya Cohen: um no I don’t have a Twitter account or anything i’m.
669
01:11:12.750 –> 01:11:13.110
Shlomo Sher: lucky.
670
01:11:13.410 –> 01:11:14.040
Eliya Cohen: I wish.
671
01:11:14.130 –> 01:11:21.210
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah I wish not yet though yeah okay great then then i’ll just do a regular like.
672
01:11:22.470 –> 01:11:37.560
Shlomo Sher: All right, thank you ellie ellie Khan was our guest professor in the entertainment arts and engineering programming department of philosophy at university of utah le we hope to have you back at some point would love we’d love to happy would love talking to you again.
673
01:11:38.640 –> 01:11:40.500
Shlomo Sher: Good podcasts that GP guys.
674
01:11:40.530 –> 01:11:42.450
Eliya Cohen: Thank you so much, this was really fun.
675
01:11:42.870 –> 01:11:43.980
Shlomo Sher: Right play dice everybody.
