[Release Date: February 1, 2022] Is it ever morally wrong to enjoy fantasizing about immoral things in video games? On the one hand, it’s just a fantasy. On the other hand, doesn’t it seem that something might be wrong about painfully torturing, raping, or hunting down minorities in a game, even though it’s all just fantasy? According to philosopher Chris Bartel, it’s not about what you do, but why you do it and who you are.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Shlomo Sher: All right, i’m.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, Hello everybody um today’s episode is going to be on a topic i’m honestly really excited about it’s a topic so important and the United voted one of our first episodes to it.
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Shlomo Sher: If you haven’t seen the gamers dilemma episode which really kind of touches on this topic go check it out, it was our fourth or fifth or sixth episode really early on today we’re going to go.
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Shlomo Sher: far beyond that our guest today is Chris bar tell a professor of philosophy at appalachian State University.
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Shlomo Sher: His research interests primarily line aesthetics and ethics and the mainly focuses on video games, the philosophy of music and media ethics man I gotta say that that sounds like some really fun philosophy to do.
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Shlomo Sher: Right he’s the author of video games violence and the ethics of fantasy, which comes out This very month January 2022 is when we’re recording this and it’s actually very unusual Chris, but I think your episode is actually going to make it this month to.
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Shlomo Sher: test.
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Christopher Bartel: Yes, good okay.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m.
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Shlomo Sher: Good well.
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A Ashcraft: As I say, we’re gonna ride the coattails of your book fame.
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Christopher Bartel: Is gonna be the other way around.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, Chris welcome to the show.
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Christopher Bartel: Thank you very much i’m so excited to be here.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, um our conversation today is going to be more philosophical than usual, but just as great as far as i’m concerned, we have you know guests from.
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Shlomo Sher: A whole lot of disciplines academic and non academic alike, and here, where we’re going to look at the topic.
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Shlomo Sher: philosophically and it’s just that you can’t get into a lot of this stuff without some philosophical precision and that’s what’s really kind of Nice about philosophy gives you clarity and precision.
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Shlomo Sher: That said, we’re also going to make sure it’s easy enough for everybody to follow and Andy is our game designer and non philosopher, please let us know if we ever get to abstract here and Chris let’s try not to.
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Shlomo Sher: Fair enough, and.
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Christopher Bartel: I think I tend to be a fairly imprecise philosopher so that’s okay.
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Christopher Bartel: Great we’ll see.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so, so I want to start with this, so this is all essentially coming.
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Shlomo Sher: Coming out of your book in your book essentially you’re looking at a you know the ethics of fantasy, which is, which is really cool so.
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Shlomo Sher: The first question that comes up is really kind of when you do your book description I can’t pass pass this up right I gotta ask you ask is it ever morally wrong to enjoy fantasizing about immoral things.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, and it’s it’s such a cool question because the first thing that ever thought of you know, when I think a fantasy immediately porn is what i’m thinking of and read porn fantasy.
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Shlomo Sher: Is you know immediately was because it’s such a common fantasy and notice you’re fantasizing about something and there’s a question of whether that’s moral or immoral.
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Shlomo Sher: Now we can talk about that with video games with game like re play or something like that, where you do that in in a game, but yeah i’m i’m i’m.
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Shlomo Sher: Sorry.
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Shlomo Sher: But of course we’re talking here about video games so let’s start with what you have in mind when you asked that question about video games, what sort of things to be enjoy fantasizing about in video games that might be a more.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah that’s a great question um I have to admit.
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Christopher Bartel: To begin with, that the question I love that question also it’s like whenever I described the book that’s that’s my leading point is that, like it’s about is it ever morally wrong to fantasize about immoral things, but I have to admit that actually it’s kind of a bad question.
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Christopher Bartel: Because it’s a very general question.
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Christopher Bartel: And like one thing that i’ve learned in philosophy is that when I asked people general questions I get general answers and if I ask specific questions I get specific and so.
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Christopher Bartel: The problem is that, like if I asked my students generally is it morally wrong to fantasize about immoral things.
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Christopher Bartel: They all immediately have a knee jerk reaction to that question, they all answer it in their heads really quickly and it’s it’s you know psychologically it’s just based on the availability bias like.
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Christopher Bartel: They immediately think of a game that they enjoyed playing where they had to do something immoral and they immediately think well I played grand theft auto and I did lots of bad things in it and I had a great time so I guess the answer to this question is there’s nothing wrong.
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A Ashcraft: And it didn’t turn them into murderers.
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Christopher Bartel: Right is to turn him into a murder so they’re fine.
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Christopher Bartel: And, and often what happens is that once they’ve made up their mind about that first question it’s really hard to change their mind it’s really hard to get them to think about other cases.
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Christopher Bartel: So sometimes with my students anyways I like to start with cases and then we get to the general question or actually a better way of asking the general question is under what conditions, is it morally wrong to fantasize about immoral things.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so.
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Christopher Bartel: we’re sadly it.
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Shlomo Sher: With the idea that sometimes it is going to be morally wrong.
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Christopher Bartel: Well, that way of answering the question is it’s still agnostic right.
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Christopher Bartel: If the question is.
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Christopher Bartel: Under what conditions, is it morally wrong, you could say under no conditions at all right, you could say universally it’s never wrong there’s no problem here.
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Christopher Bartel: Or you could say all right, well, maybe there are some conditions let’s think of some cases like in my students always start with grand theft auto all right.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s do another hate.
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Christopher Bartel: And the other thing I always like to point out to my students is that when it comes to violence in video games, to be honest, read theft auto he said no.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s not that violence there’s so much more dark stuff out there.
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Shlomo Sher: Right it’s a cartoony game.
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Christopher Bartel: I mean it’s a cartoony game exactly like you already mentioned rate blood.
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Christopher Bartel: Right, when I mentioned that to my students, I see their faces out, they just they’re like oh my God I didn’t realize that there were rate video games and, of course, there are right right um What about you know games like customers revenge or ethnic cleansing.
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Christopher Bartel: or Jesus strikes back.
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Christopher Bartel: or battle rapper or something like you know these are games that really exist and really dark.
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Shlomo Sher: I so want to know, can you just really quick.
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Shlomo Sher: battle raipur.
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Christopher Bartel: and
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so back I.
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Shlomo Sher: know about those both of those.
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Christopher Bartel: Okay, so battle raipur.
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Christopher Bartel: came it’s an old game it can’t it’s 20 years old came out in 2002 it’s about the same time as replay and if i’m not mistaken, I think it might even be the same publisher.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s a I mean it’s a Japanese game it’s in the Japanese genre of erotic video games so it’s a.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s a hand to hand combat game where it’s kind of like you know, in the style of mortal kombat, but when you hit female characters their clothes fall off.
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Christopher Bartel: And then you finally beat them, you have the option to break them which that’s kind of dark yeah that’s a little it’s a little creepy.
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Shlomo Sher: I need.
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Shlomo Sher: I noted that I got a.
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Christopher Bartel: lot of dark.
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Christopher Bartel: um the other game that I mentioned was Jesus strikes back, which is a newish game that came out in 2018 it’s an ultra right video.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s a video it’s a game that kind of plays I haven’t played it myself i’ve seen play through I don’t want to.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s a game that kind of plays like saints row you’re running around in the city and you’re just you know it’s mayhem just shooting people.
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Christopher Bartel: You get to play as either Donald trump.
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Christopher Bartel: But the clever thing about it is that it’s not spelled trump it’s filled with an O so that it’s all.
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Christopher Bartel: The characters that you can play as are like you can play as Donald trump or you can play as Hitler or you can play as.
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Christopher Bartel: Vladimir Putin, or you could even play as Jesus so you’re running around in a white robe and you know Jesus hair and.
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Christopher Bartel: Everything with with a gun and your job is to try to massacre, as many Liberals chant transgender people racial minorities and feminist, as you can.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s kind of dark.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah really again.
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A Ashcraft: Like the darkest part of it is that they’ve got their their to their heroes mixed up with their villains.
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Christopher Bartel: The fact that you can play as Jesus and mess for people.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah mind blowing like so the game is basically the the alt rights fantasy of the boogaloo in video game for okay sadly.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so let’s talk so we already got a couple of pretty outstanding cases of.
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Shlomo Sher: games where that go pretty far from gta so we’re talking about examples of potentially immoral action in games right obviously you know playing these particular games right playing as as Donald trump you know massacring these people or playing, as you know, a battle papers right.
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Shlomo Sher: and ethnic cleansing, you mentioned is exactly what it sounds I mean it’s a white power game where you literally you know kill all the brown people and black people and silver lungs right right okay so Are these the kinds of cases yeah mine.
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Christopher Bartel: Mostly, but I out, I also want to just add like.
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Christopher Bartel: While we’re talking at the level of games there’s also you can talk at the more individual level of specific things that people do in game.
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Christopher Bartel: Just about specific.
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Shlomo Sher: titles, but.
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Christopher Bartel: But there are things that you can do in games that the game allows you to do the game might not be necessarily designed for, but you can do it anyways and you can question whether that’s morally message like think of tea back.
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Christopher Bartel: Right and do it, do you have to do it, you know.
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Christopher Bartel: Right, you can do or think of games, where you can move the camera perspective, so that you can up skirt female.
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Christopher Bartel: Avatar right.
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Christopher Bartel: Okay, I love that you know some recent games have changed the way that the camera moves, so you can’t obscured it so like horizon zero dawn you can’t obscured a Lord.
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Christopher Bartel: look up.
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Christopher Bartel: The reboot versions of tomb raider you can’t obscured Lara croft me right.
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Shlomo Sher: So notice right there doing this with the assumption that maybe there is something wrong with you doing that.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah even even though right it’s a game, and even though you’re not really looking up anybody skirt.
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A Ashcraft: Well yeah i’ll add they’re also doing it, so that the Internet isn’t flooded with images of their game showing up showing up skirt so it’s a PR it’s a PR issue as well.
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Christopher Bartel: Right i’m sure that it probably is a PR I mean i’m impressed that somebody spent money to solve this problem, like.
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Christopher Bartel: Right.
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Christopher Bartel: But I realized that it probably is you know cynically just a PR thing.
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Shlomo Sher: And, but notice right it’s a you know I want to kind of just make sure that the audience does see that this is obviously an issue itself right, the reason they would do it for PR is because at least some people seem to think that there is something wrong here right right.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah playing the game this way you’re doing it.
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Shlomo Sher: Wrong oh you’re doing something immoral and the game company wants to either agree or just kind of you know, paying lip service to that by saying Okay, so we will protect now Whatever the reason, would be right.
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Shlomo Sher: Though it’s interesting right, I mean what could possibly be wrong with something like this, after all, I mean it’s not you know, this is not real in any way you’re not looking up anybody’s skirt.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah yeah my so here’s the broad perspective of the book, the basic point that i’m trying to argue in the book is that it is wrong and the wrongness is because it’s an expression of the players value.
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Christopher Bartel: Because the player who wants to obscure a lawyer horizon zero dawn.
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Christopher Bartel: is expressing something about how to treat women is expressing something about the worst of other human beings.
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Christopher Bartel: And it’s right it’s a bad thing that they’re expressing, so the wrongness comes from possessing the wrong kind of values or possessing the wrong kind of moral character so that’s like the broad.
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Shlomo Sher: So let’s build up to that.
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Christopher Bartel: Okay cool.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah let’s do it.
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Shlomo Sher: Alright, so um so you know it’s it’s interesting right because in all these kind of cases right.
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Shlomo Sher: In for many people, the first response right is that none of this is really real right and what kind of and that seems to be a really kind of important thing, of course, this is, by definition, but fantasy is right, I mean you’re right.
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Shlomo Sher: And the unreality is supposed to essentially connect to the nothing can be wrong if you’re right classically right if you’re not harming anybody, or if you’re not running anybody here in a game.
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Shlomo Sher: In a game like this, I, like the the upstart example right literally you’re not doing it to another person So what can be wrong about that.
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Shlomo Sher: So I want to kind of bring that to the second question, I have here, which is a, so to say that we’re doing something immoral when we’re playing a video game is to kind of say that we’re responsible for what we’re doing in that video game.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean when we face steal a car in real life, you say it’s wrong because i’m responsible for doing something wrong right so.
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A Ashcraft: Somebody else you’ve taken something from someone else so you’ve harmed someone else and so it’s wrong right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah don’t don’t notice it might not be even that I harmed anybody right, it might be that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, it might this might be wrong, even if the person never knows that I stole their car I stole their car by the back the next night I still violated their rights to their property right I didn’t harm them in any way, but you can still blame me for it alright.
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Shlomo Sher: So you know we we consider like excuses ballad when when you’re not responsible.
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Shlomo Sher: Right um and it kind of struck me right, if you thought that this car was will yours and you accidentally took the wrong card, then we wouldn’t hold you responsible because you know you didn’t you didn’t know right.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know if someone you know force you a gunpoint to steal my car right we wouldn’t hold you responsible because you weren’t really you know that’s that’s really not what happens if you steal a car in gta yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Do any.
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A Ashcraft: Grand theft auto.
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Right.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah yeah.
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Christopher Bartel: Right exactly I mean like kind of kind of the clue isn’t the.
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Christopher Bartel: One thing that I think is really interesting about games it’s like when we you know we loved it when we talk about games, we talked about the freedom of the gifts.
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Christopher Bartel: And that’s like one of the key selling points that lots lots of people go on about it that you have this freedom to express things to become a different person to experience new things.
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Christopher Bartel: But actually games are not nearly as free as we pretend that they are like they’re actually very, very deterministic worlds, where certain things have to happen for the story to play out.
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Christopher Bartel: And even when you’re playing in a big sandbox game like sky room or something like that.
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Christopher Bartel: The game constrains really tightly what you can do and what you can do like grand theft auto I can run a people over I can steal everything that’s not nailed down, I can kill anybody that walks by me, but I can’t give up the thug life and go to Community college right.
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A Ashcraft: Right can’t do that.
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Christopher Bartel: The game doesn’t, allow me to do so, I don’t really there’s certain freedoms that I don’t have, I can only do things like kill steal because that’s what is coded into the game that’s my main way of interacting with the game world is killer see.
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Christopher Bartel: there’s I can’t help I don’t have the option to give to charity I don’t have the option to you know.
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Christopher Bartel: I don’t know it start an animal rescue you know farm I can’t do that.
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A Ashcraft: Right you can’t even you can’t even you know steal from rich and give to the poor.
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Christopher Bartel: Right exactly right i’m so impressed theft auto think about how there are lots of there are lots of missions in the game that you’re coerced into doing something bad you’re coerced into violence right.
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Christopher Bartel: In some missions, you have to steal the car just to get the mission to start right you can’t you can’t even progress in the game without stealing.
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Christopher Bartel: Even more generally it’s really difficult to get around in the city without stealing cards, but if you walk the whole time you’d be there for.
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Christopher Bartel: Right be ridiculous.
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Christopher Bartel: So funny Funnily enough, the first time I played grand theft auto I didn’t know that I didn’t know like how.
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Christopher Bartel: how serious the police would be if I ran over pedestrians so for the first like 10 minutes I followed all the traffic laws and I stopped at all the red lines.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah I know.
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Christopher Bartel: It took me about 10 minutes to realize Oh, I can just bring people over so I did right.
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Christopher Bartel: Now, everybody has to get out of my way.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m the one hand it’s it’s it’s a nice and kind of example of the things that you are.
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Shlomo Sher: forced to do versus right because again right for to be held responsible right we have this idea again that you’re you’re you’re acting freely and you, you know what you’re doing in your situation right.
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Shlomo Sher: As you’re thinking, should I you know, should I pass the red light which are run over pedestrians right, it seems that you could make that choice.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, though, later on, there are missions, when you go on missions right there are lots of things that you can’t choose about and again let’s go to battle rap battle rapists on battle.
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Christopher Bartel: battle raipur.
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Shlomo Sher: battle rapper.
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Christopher Bartel: Right yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: I have a feeling i’m going to be talking about that game for a long time to come.
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Shlomo Sher: It really it really it really got my imagination right in.
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Christopher Bartel: I don’t think you can find that in the US, I bet you can find it online, I mean I don’t think anybody.
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Christopher Bartel: Right.
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A Ashcraft: Somewhere it’s gotta be some.
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A Ashcraft: If one dug deep enough.
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Christopher Bartel: i’m doing with it.
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Christopher Bartel: All and yeah I like.
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The concept.
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Shlomo Sher: But but yeah but but notice right in in that game i’m assuming that’s the whole game right you you fight, as you fight a you know what is a sexualized trigger.
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Shlomo Sher: The more you beat her up the more her clothes fly off right that’s it right you don’t have any other choice in the.
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Shlomo Sher: game is where the only choice.
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Christopher Bartel: Exactly yeah the only choice you have is to play or not that’s.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know.
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Christopher Bartel: Sometimes, like some of my students get really mad at me and they they stopped me at this point, and they say exactly that, like if you don’t like to play if you don’t like the game don’t play it.
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Christopher Bartel: Right and that’s fine but there’s i’m really interested in what happens when I do play the game, like the moral issues that do come up.
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Christopher Bartel: It can’t be the case that just by playing the game, I therefore endorse everything that happens, like Of course I can play a game.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah Of course I can watch a movie and hate part of it and it’s still my favorite movie and I can I can be conflicted about like the way that they treated this actress in the filming is terrible.
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Christopher Bartel: But this is one of the great movies right, I of course I can feel calm.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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Christopher Bartel: In the eyes of.
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Christopher Bartel: So sorry going back.
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Christopher Bartel: To the grand theft auto case sure to grand theft auto forward there’s admission where you’d have to join the Irish Irish mafia and rob a bank, but.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s the I forget what it’s called oh it’s the Irish mafia robbing a bank and when it when you do when you.
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Christopher Bartel: Do the mission, of course, the robbery goes badly and the police show up and you have to shoot your way out and the first time I played the game, I really felt uncomfortable about shooting I really didn’t want to do.
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Christopher Bartel: I tried to stealthily sneak out but I realized quickly that I have to lead all of my teammates out of the bank in order to complete the mission, so I was.
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Christopher Bartel: I was coerced effectively into shooting police, something that I really didn’t want to do so, I felt like this deep conflict of like I really don’t want to do this.
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Christopher Bartel: But this is a game that I want to enjoy it so much else about the game that I want to play so i’ll just put my head down and get through this mission and then carry on with what I enjoy okay.
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Christopher Bartel: that’s the kind of case that I think is really interesting it’s like um where games actually really do constraint, our freedom, so much that I am being coerced into things that I don’t really want to do right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah you have this and you make this this distinction between doing things as a willing or unwilling player.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah and I think it’s a really great distinction right uh can you, you know tell us about that I know I guess, we could connect it to well let’s just start with what is this difference between the willing and unwilling player.
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Christopher Bartel: Sure, the willing let’s, let me start with the unwilling player that’s what I was in this mission, so the unwilling player is somebody who grudgingly performs an action.
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Christopher Bartel: Even though you don’t want to perform the action there might be other things that you want to do in the game and you really enjoy the game for lots of other reasons that I want to get back to those things.
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Christopher Bartel: But this particular thing I don’t want to do, and yet I can’t get back to the things I enjoy about the game without doing this particular thing so i’m grudgingly unwillingly going through this action.
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Christopher Bartel: That kind of person the unwilling player, I think, is phenomenal logically really interesting because the way that they experience the game is they have this experience of a discrepancy between what they want to do and what the game is demand.
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Christopher Bartel: Think about cases in games, where you have to choose which of your two npc is dive and you love both of them like this is my crew I don’t want any my npc is to die, but I have to choose one like I feel this conflict of like.
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Christopher Bartel: This is not the way I want the game to go, but I have to choose one right so there’s this discrepancy between what I want to do and what the game for.
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Christopher Bartel: The willing player on the it’s very different willing player is doing in the game exactly what they want to see done in the game world so that person never experiences any kind of discrepancy between.
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Christopher Bartel: What the game is demanding and what you’re allowed to do, and you know, in most games, most of us are willing player.
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Christopher Bartel: So when I when I play.
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A Ashcraft: yeah let me, let me ask about that because there’s there seems to be like there might be a third category of people like i’m willing to do this because that’s what the game is about like i’m a player I.
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A Ashcraft: Am I am I am I have put all of my I have put myself into that magic circle so deeply that my own morality is not really even there i’m just doing whatever the game wants me to do and i’m fine with that.
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Christopher Bartel: versus that’s yeah.
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A Ashcraft: versus another person who’s like yeah I get the COPs.
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A Ashcraft: Yes, that’s my favorite mission to shoot COPs.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: So yes, so to add to that Chris let’s go back to the what was the Jesus gave.
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Christopher Bartel: Jesus strikes back.
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Shlomo Sher: To Jesus strikes back game right, and you know I might just play that game, as someone who just wants to know what it’s like to be in that position.
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Shlomo Sher: And right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and still want to get myself into the game and do everything that the game wants you to do because I want to while playing the game identify with the game, but ultimately.
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Shlomo Sher: All right.
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Shlomo Sher: I think that’s a horrible horrible horrible idea.
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Christopher Bartel: I think you’re probably right like maybe I was there in the book, I say that there are two players there’s the willing player in the unknown but you’re probably.
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Christopher Bartel: Right.
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Christopher Bartel: Probably a fourth as well.
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Christopher Bartel: But I see your point and so like when i’m playing when most of us play games if if most of the games that we played, we were unwilling players, we wouldn’t play.
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Christopher Bartel: Right, we would put them down here we go do something else, most of the games that we play i’m mostly willing to do everything like when I sit down and play clash royale.
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Christopher Bartel: I want to play that I want to get into a battle, I want to knock down people’s towers that’s what I right.
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Christopher Bartel: But I think you’re right like there’s a third kind of player, the person who.
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Christopher Bartel: Is kind of agnostic right or imagine a video games journalist who’s assigned the task of you have to write an essay about Jesus strikes back sorry about that, but you have to write, we need the rice.
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Christopher Bartel: Please go play this game, so they would be a grudging player through it so would that make them a third kind of player, or are they just an unwilling player throughout the entire experience.
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Shlomo Sher: Dallas seems like an unwilling player unless they genuinely want to get the experience.
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Christopher Bartel: With yeah like.
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Shlomo Sher: which I think is where Andy was kind of going with it, I don’t know any.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe not, no, no, maybe just.
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A Ashcraft: The eager player.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah so here’s where I thought you were going sandy is that, like one of the.
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Christopher Bartel: Think about fiction broadly not just video games, but movies novels poems music, you know fiction broadly music that still stories anyways.
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Christopher Bartel: One of the things that we love about fiction, is when a work of fiction can put us into the perspective of a of a life that we would never live.
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Christopher Bartel: A life that we would never experienced like Why do people love Walter white so much Why do people love this upon us Why do people love Dexter so much because it like what the fiction, does it puts you in a world that you’d never really live in.
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Christopher Bartel: But that kind of poor person I think their perspective is very different from the willing player or the willing view and imagine a person who really, really does identify struggling with Dexter like I could see myself to become a serial killer.
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Christopher Bartel: Right right right right okay.
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A Ashcraft: I I watch this because i’ve always wanted to be a serial killer, and this is.
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A Ashcraft: yeah the only the only way I get to live that out.
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Christopher Bartel: Right it’s like the extreme vigilante fantasy.
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Christopher Bartel: You know, with added serial killer.
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Christopher Bartel: that’s what you’re going for that’s the show for us.
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Shlomo Sher: So so let’s go to one of the examples that you have because I remember, so you have this example of gta five and torturing someone is Trevor.
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Shlomo Sher: And I I remember that scene like.
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Shlomo Sher: really well I think anybody that played you know gta five right would very clearly it’s it’s one of the big scenes that stands out and it’s the only time and again when you really have to do something horrible horrible yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: And I hated it, but I played it through, because it was part of the game I didn’t want to quit but I never thought of myself as torturing anyone.
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Shlomo Sher: Right Trevor did it right, I mean I just went along right, even though of course i’m playing Trevor where it’s the character that is doing, does that mean that I never tortured, that person, if I can find never torture, that person.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I never did anything wrong or.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s say, on the other hand, I found that seemed fun right, I thought, torturing was really.
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Shlomo Sher: fun, does that mean that it wasn’t Trevor that torture them, but it was.
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Christopher Bartel: me right right right, so I got good news for you.
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you’re not.
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Christopher Bartel: Judy.
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Yes.
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A Ashcraft: And also Trevor is not real.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah.
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Christopher Bartel: And he does like imagine a player who loves that scene so much that they go back to an earlier same point to replay it over and over heatedly again that person creeps me out.
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Christopher Bartel: And what what I want is a theory that can explain why that person creeps me out what what’s creepy about like There does seem to be something genuinely like morally weird going on the person who wants to be played that see.
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Shlomo Sher: Great so let’s pause here and kind of expand this and kind of go back to the to the original question right because you know.
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Shlomo Sher: You know lots of people would think that there is something wrong with someone who would want to play any of these games right.
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Christopher Bartel: Now right.
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Shlomo Sher: Now notice that the question is Is there something wrong with that person or they do something wrong when they’re playing these games right.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah and and for for a lot of us right like you know playing a game like battle royale the active side battle battle right right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, the actual rape part of the game seems like that’s the wrong thing to do, as opposed to who is the kind of person that would play a game like this, and what is wrong with them psychologically.
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Christopher Bartel: exactly like think of it as you play the game that you want to play, but you do you play the game that you want right, so the question ultimately becomes kind of what is it about that that you want to do it, so in the case of battle raipur the, the issue is that.
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Christopher Bartel: Why is that the thing that you want to do in the game.
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Christopher Bartel: And then we can evaluate that more like Is this the kind of thing that you want to walk Are these the kind of values that people generally.
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Christopher Bartel: should aim for.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah.
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A Ashcraft: Right, I think I think there’s also.
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A Ashcraft: To add to add to this part of the conversation there’s there’s things that I want to do functionally.
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A Ashcraft: versus things that I want to do really.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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Christopher Bartel: So what is that distinction, though, because, like so there’s a lot of people in philosophy art in aesthetics, who who are really intrigued by exactly that distinction there’s what I want in the fiction and then there’s what I want in reality.
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Christopher Bartel: And sometimes i’m not exactly sure what exactly is the dividing line between these things like so I want Walter white to.
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Christopher Bartel: Do really well in breaking bad because I enjoy this because I enjoy the attention of the fiction I enjoy the attention that the story provides but Do I really want it so spoiler alert Do I really want him to kill Jane.
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Christopher Bartel: Do I really want him to to kill her that seems like an extra wanting.
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A Ashcraft: Right yes.
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Christopher Bartel: Like would you have an example of a what you want, in fiction, but you don’t want your life.
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A Ashcraft: Oh plenty because I played lots and lots of role playing games.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so.
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A Ashcraft: You know i’ll play you know i’ll play grand theft auto and i’ll run over pedestrians and or even better let’s talk let’s say something that’s not quite so so so bloody but still something I would never want to do in real life.
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A Ashcraft: In.
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A Ashcraft: Oh i’m gonna mind block the name of the game, it was a racing game a burnout burnout three burnout three had this mode where you could race your car into a busy intersection.
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A Ashcraft: And then, when, as soon as the first contact of the crash began it would go into slow motion and you would basically see you would basically play out the crash and slow motion, and it would anywhere and the points you got was was based on the property damage that you were doing.
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Christopher Bartel: And so you’re right yes.
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A Ashcraft: racing into a busy intersection to create the biggest accident, you could possibly create.
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Christopher Bartel: Right yeah.
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A Ashcraft: super fun super.
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Christopher Bartel: fun that that actually reminds me of one of my favorite things in grand theft auto four.
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Christopher Bartel: So in Liberty city there’s this one really wide road that goes up a hill and at the top of the hill is a park with like a fountain that goes around me I love getting on a motorcycle and going up that hill as fast as I can, and trying to jump over the.
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Christopher Bartel: The water fountain because you always end up landing in a crowd of people behind the word chaos.
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Christopher Bartel: So yeah I mean there are things that you want to do in fiction that you wouldn’t want to do in real life, and I think that goes back to the point we were talking about earlier than like one of the values of fiction, is that it allows us to see the world from another perspective.
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Christopher Bartel: allows us to take on perspectives that we would never experienced in real life because we recognize that they’re bad perspective.
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Christopher Bartel: And I think that’s the key here that’s really like portland is that because we recognize that they’re bad perspective because we recognize it of course I don’t want to.
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Christopher Bartel: jump a motorcycle into a crowd of people that would be a terrible thing to do in a way i’m.
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Christopher Bartel: it’s a funny kind of unwilling player right i’m doing something that I don’t want in real life.
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A Ashcraft: But i’d be doing it gleefully.
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Christopher Bartel: might be doing legally like yeah so there’s another.
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Christopher Bartel: theorist who his name’s Gary young, who has this really interesting point that he makes about how one of the things that we value in video games things that we get from video and it’s just the pleasure of taboo brick.
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Christopher Bartel: And I totally agree with that, like there is genuinely a gleeful funding pleasure in breaking taboos, particularly when we think that they’re taboos, I would, I would add to gary’s for particular when we think of their taboos that are not jolly yeah.
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A Ashcraft: Absolutely um even even things that we might think are valuable like I think that was the.
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A Ashcraft: The the the primary kind of fun that you get out of games like cards against humanity.
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Christopher Bartel: yeah yeah right right or a game like postal right.
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Christopher Bartel: Right first all you have to do is go to the corner store and get some though right but they’re all these gardens lying around.
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Christopher Bartel: You may as well.
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Shlomo Sher: Alright, so let me go man I I did want to kind of ask about this idea of the the difference between a game, and you know and something like a film or TV show right.
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Shlomo Sher: But whether that doesn’t matter right, so if you’re if you’re watching Walter white breaking bad and you’re you’re enjoying what he’s doing, how is that different than you playing you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Obviously you know the interactivity again and the agency that gains give you seem to really kind of matter here right enjoying you know it’s interesting what it means to enjoy torture scene in the movie versus in acting a torture.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, seeing I don’t know what the right word to be torturing someone but but, again, torturing someone if i’m torturing someone in a game it’s it directly seems to imply that I am doing it not, that i’m directing a character to do something in in in a fictional setting.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so here, I want to break in here just because I think the the game design and the end and the game designer at this point matters.
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A Ashcraft: There, there are torture scenes that that have made me not watch TV shows or not watching movies, like turn off movies, because.
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A Ashcraft: they’re just presented and that’s a choice of the of the director and the filmmaker to present this in a way that’s that’s horrifying and too much for me, but then there’s the great torture scene in reservoir dogs.
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A Ashcraft: Which is just, which is a joy.
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A Ashcraft: You know I mean.
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A Ashcraft: And it’s and it’s about the choices that the director makes in the way that it is presented.
389
00:42:29.100 –> 00:42:34.320
A Ashcraft: So I think that’s an important part of this conversation like we can’t just talk about a torture saying without.
390
00:42:34.320 –> 00:42:45.300
A Ashcraft: Without saying like well how is torture scene presented is this presented to be horrifying or is is presented to be a joyous like a ridiculous and and an awesome moment right.
391
00:42:45.330 –> 00:42:49.440
Shlomo Sher: Yes, matters and the reasons matter right so in gta five I mean they’re.
392
00:42:49.440 –> 00:42:57.390
Shlomo Sher: torturing someone in order to essentially I can remember, I mean money and money and power is going to be essentially.
393
00:42:57.450 –> 00:43:13.050
Christopher Bartel: Oh, and sorry to interrupt you, and part of the context of the gta five torture scene is that just a few years before gta five came out, we had the revelation that American forces were torturing people in prisons in Iran right right.
394
00:43:13.350 –> 00:43:20.850
Christopher Bartel: So I wouldn’t be surprised if the designers have that in mind, they you know waterboarding, is one of the things that Trevor can do in that same.
395
00:43:21.180 –> 00:43:36.600
Christopher Bartel: Right, it would be totally shocked if they were blind to that like there’s got to be that was that was put in and, as you said earlier it’s like the one thing you do in gta fun actually is like a key gross this is really on the edge.
396
00:43:39.510 –> 00:43:40.470
A Ashcraft: So what if you watch.
397
00:43:40.500 –> 00:43:41.670
A Ashcraft: If you watch 24.
398
00:43:41.940 –> 00:43:43.560
A Ashcraft: that’s right he gets all of his information.
399
00:43:43.740 –> 00:43:44.310
Shlomo Sher: Saving the.
400
00:43:44.640 –> 00:43:45.630
A Ashcraft: saves the US.
401
00:43:45.750 –> 00:43:46.830
Christopher Bartel: Right yeah exactly.
402
00:43:47.490 –> 00:43:58.020
Christopher Bartel: i’m thinking about it from the designers perspective, I want to talk about an old game call of duty modern warfare two i’m sure you know where i’m going with this.
403
00:43:58.200 –> 00:44:01.500
Christopher Bartel: Right in the opening sequence, you have the airport massacre seen.
404
00:44:02.880 –> 00:44:13.200
Christopher Bartel: And i’ve always kind of like a lot of call of duty players win that game came out had a really hard time graphically grappling with that whole seems like they have to join a terrorist organization.
405
00:44:13.590 –> 00:44:18.060
Christopher Bartel: Or, they have to infiltrate a terrorist organization go along with this master of civilians in the nerve.
406
00:44:19.830 –> 00:44:25.500
Christopher Bartel: And I think what’s kind of interesting about that particular case in that context is the like.
407
00:44:26.520 –> 00:44:34.920
Christopher Bartel: call of duty is a game that has like such a rah rah military you know ideology to it that people.
408
00:44:35.700 –> 00:44:47.100
Christopher Bartel: players who love that game really kind of get sucked into this idea that nothing bad ever happens in the military, that this is it’s always heroic raves great stuff so.
409
00:44:47.670 –> 00:45:04.500
Christopher Bartel: modern warfare two comes out and they actually you know designers make this choice to put in a sequence in the game that makes the player really think about like sometimes in war really bad choices for me is this the kind of heroism that you really think about.
410
00:45:05.910 –> 00:45:13.020
Christopher Bartel: And for that reason I kind of think that the that the opening sequence is a really powerful sequence that should be in that game.
411
00:45:13.440 –> 00:45:28.800
Christopher Bartel: Now, imagine a player who ignores all of that context and All they do is they keep restarting the game, just to play that seen over and over again, because they love fantasizing about the idea of massacring civilians reference me out right.
412
00:45:28.950 –> 00:45:37.050
Christopher Bartel: that’s something nice totally ignoring all the context there isn’t anything of aesthetic relevance here, it really is just a shooter fantasy.
413
00:45:37.470 –> 00:45:43.200
Shlomo Sher: Okay, Chris so let’s let’s pause it right you keep saying that freaks me out right, and you know.
414
00:45:44.430 –> 00:45:44.760
Shlomo Sher: I.
415
00:45:44.880 –> 00:45:55.590
Shlomo Sher: I you know, one of the things uh I sometimes have to remind my students is that right discussed is not the same as the morality.
416
00:45:56.070 –> 00:45:56.460
Shlomo Sher: Right.
417
00:45:56.580 –> 00:46:04.770
Shlomo Sher: To say that something is creepy right whatever exactly that means right it’s, not to say that it’s wrong that might freak you out but that might not be your bad.
418
00:46:04.800 –> 00:46:06.210
Christopher Bartel: hey you gave me.
419
00:46:06.330 –> 00:46:07.230
Shlomo Sher: Something else right.
420
00:46:07.290 –> 00:46:08.700
Christopher Bartel: Right, maybe i’m super sense.
421
00:46:08.910 –> 00:46:24.660
Shlomo Sher: So, so I mean ultimately teams right you seem to argue that it’s morally wrong for players to enact violent fantasies in games if they’re doing so willingly right if they really want to do this, but not if they’re doing so unwillingly, is that right, first of all.
422
00:46:24.690 –> 00:46:25.950
Christopher Bartel: yeah that’s right that’s correct.
423
00:46:26.340 –> 00:46:30.570
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so why right because it can’t be just it’s kind of creepy.
424
00:46:30.630 –> 00:46:36.930
Shlomo Sher: Right it’s still a fantasy right we’re still not hurting anybody what would making Why would participating in it.
425
00:46:37.230 –> 00:46:50.430
Shlomo Sher: Actually willingly right the person that would play that scene, or that would willingly play battle royale or ethnic cleansing or or a play what would that make that if they’re doing a willingly immoral.
426
00:46:51.870 –> 00:46:55.140
Christopher Bartel: I think that so that’s you’re exactly right so.
427
00:46:56.490 –> 00:47:00.960
Christopher Bartel: For one for the, let me start by saying yes, I do keep sending the creeps me out.
428
00:47:02.010 –> 00:47:05.820
Christopher Bartel: Because it’s far easier to say that than to say it is immoral.
429
00:47:05.850 –> 00:47:08.100
Christopher Bartel: Like I meant to give you a moral story of like.
430
00:47:08.190 –> 00:47:11.880
Christopher Bartel: why it is so what you’re asking me for now is the moral sore.
431
00:47:12.930 –> 00:47:13.230
Christopher Bartel: Okay.
432
00:47:13.590 –> 00:47:14.160
You know, to me.
433
00:47:15.930 –> 00:47:16.950
Christopher Bartel: It for what it’s worth.
434
00:47:18.570 –> 00:47:35.700
Christopher Bartel: I think the point is that there are some things that we desire that we shouldn’t desire it’s possible to possess immoral beliefs it’s possible to possess immoral designers if I were to try to define what those are I would probably say that an immoral belief or.
435
00:47:36.780 –> 00:47:49.980
Christopher Bartel: it’s a belief that if you are X, if you were to act upon it, and we have a an immortal outcome would harm people would cause some kind of suffering and immoral desire is a desire that if you were to act on it would have it would cause suffering.
436
00:47:51.960 –> 00:48:02.610
Christopher Bartel: So there are such things lots of people have them i’m sure we all do, many of us possess things like immoral desires and for the most part we try to suppress them right.
437
00:48:03.690 –> 00:48:08.310
Christopher Bartel: And for the most part that’s a good idea, you should suppress desires that are immoral.
438
00:48:09.360 –> 00:48:17.430
Christopher Bartel: You shouldn’t really given to them you shouldn’t try to cultivate them, but I think that what we do in fantasy, is that we use fantasies.
439
00:48:17.880 –> 00:48:28.200
Christopher Bartel: as a way of cultivating desires, whether they’re good desires or bad it’s like you can cultivate moral desires, just as well as you can cultivate immoral ones fantasy like.
440
00:48:28.740 –> 00:48:39.360
Christopher Bartel: The simple case would be let’s go back to move forward that’s exactly what a potent fantasy is for when reality doesn’t give you what you want, you can turn to fantasy.
441
00:48:40.890 –> 00:48:53.070
Christopher Bartel: And I don’t think that what happens in that case when we turn to fantasy, is that, like a lot of players try to dismiss violence in games as i’m just blowing off steam.
442
00:48:54.540 –> 00:49:04.500
Christopher Bartel: But I don’t think that’s what we actually do I don’t think we really blow off steam I think what we do is we reinforce and cultivate desire that like think of it.
443
00:49:05.640 –> 00:49:13.770
Christopher Bartel: here’s an example, but think of important you don’t turn to porn to rid yourself of the desire it’s not like.
444
00:49:14.310 –> 00:49:26.310
Christopher Bartel: The desire is now gone, I mean maybe you’re less frustrated but it’s not the the desire goes away What it does is it reinforces the link between this really is what I want I can get it in fantasy.
445
00:49:28.140 –> 00:49:35.910
Shlomo Sher: So, so let me, let me bring this back to uh let’s bring this back to the Jesus fights back game.
446
00:49:36.480 –> 00:49:45.690
Shlomo Sher: yeah so in this case i’m going to play this game, I have this fantasy of going out, and you know i’ve been listening to oh and.
447
00:49:46.560 –> 00:49:56.340
Shlomo Sher: You know or or Fox and you know, and I just can’t stand these liberals and trans people and feminists I got it, I still want to go kill them, but instead i’m going to go play this game.
448
00:49:56.760 –> 00:50:14.460
Shlomo Sher: Now, in this game right are you saying that i’m i’m cultivating mom is it that the more I play this game, the more substance my belief that these people are vermin worth killing.
449
00:50:15.600 –> 00:50:22.140
Shlomo Sher: substantiates or that my desire to kill them get stronger because i’m playing these games.
450
00:50:22.650 –> 00:50:23.730
Shlomo Sher: Are you going to go that far.
451
00:50:24.810 –> 00:50:34.950
Christopher Bartel: I am afraid I think I might I think I probably will because I mean for the sake of this podcast let’s go that far let’s do it yeah.
452
00:50:35.880 –> 00:50:37.530
Shlomo Sher: you’re in a week record right you’re.
453
00:50:37.590 –> 00:50:40.140
Shlomo Sher: You know you’re not writing anything down yeah.
454
00:50:40.530 –> 00:50:41.100
Christopher Bartel: Right exactly.
455
00:50:42.120 –> 00:50:53.100
Christopher Bartel: I mean here’s what doesn’t like taking the case that you just gave great so you’ve been listening to a whole bunch of old right media and you really hate these liberals, if you really want to master them.
456
00:50:53.460 –> 00:51:10.080
Christopher Bartel: So you play geez strikes back to kind of feel that idea does the desire go away after playing the game, or does it does it just reinforce the idea that, yes, i’ve been right all the time, these people suck These people deserve whatever is coming.
457
00:51:11.190 –> 00:51:15.090
Christopher Bartel: I think it’s The second thing, rather than the first I don’t think desire goes away.
458
00:51:16.350 –> 00:51:21.150
Christopher Bartel: I think the idea that we blow off steam is kind of a myth and.
459
00:51:22.560 –> 00:51:24.090
Christopher Bartel: I don’t think that there’s a lot of.
460
00:51:24.120 –> 00:51:29.010
Christopher Bartel: empirical evidence that there is such a thing blowing off steam, at least not in that respect.
461
00:51:29.490 –> 00:51:45.750
A Ashcraft: Right I sort of feel like we’re getting into the the psychology of it now and and and I certainly don’t have a leg to stand on to speak about the about the psychology of it, except to say that you know that we had another episode of a ways back about.
462
00:51:46.950 –> 00:51:51.660
A Ashcraft: I think it was the the gamers dilemma episode, where we talked about.
463
00:51:56.790 –> 00:51:57.630
A Ashcraft: People who.
464
00:51:59.340 –> 00:52:02.910
A Ashcraft: Mind locking words what’s the word for people like to have sex with small.
465
00:52:03.060 –> 00:52:03.780
Christopher Bartel: Children file.
466
00:52:04.230 –> 00:52:04.920
A Ashcraft: file, thank you.
467
00:52:07.020 –> 00:52:19.650
A Ashcraft: who feel who do feel like like when they have these opportunities to have to do this functionally it does relieve their desire to go do it in reality.
468
00:52:21.390 –> 00:52:29.100
Shlomo Sher: Though it doesn’t it’s interesting because I think that might also be a special case in at least some sense.
469
00:52:30.630 –> 00:52:46.800
Shlomo Sher: Because there’s a non virtual outcome that comes from that you know the fantasy, though, going back to that, I mean Chris notice at this point, you seem to be very much making a psychological thing.
470
00:52:46.980 –> 00:52:54.030
Shlomo Sher: I psychological claim that seems to go against the that seems to apply to violence, just as well right, I mean you know.
471
00:52:54.870 –> 00:53:08.850
Shlomo Sher: you’re saying that all these people, so if i’m playing call of duty and i’m enjoying the violence i’m there because I am enjoying now notice I the desire now it’s it’s.
472
00:53:09.210 –> 00:53:21.330
Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting what that desire is right, do I have desire to show skill of doing head shots or do I, the desire to shoot people but not real people, these are.
473
00:53:21.960 –> 00:53:34.110
Shlomo Sher: People you know does you know and we seem to have plenty of psychological evidence that shows that you know that desire to shoot the game people doesn’t translate to desire to shoot the you know real people.
474
00:53:35.040 –> 00:53:47.970
Shlomo Sher: How does How does that translate into the Jesus fights back game where I have the desire to shoot them, you know to or to beat these people up in the game that doesn’t seem to translate necessarily to have that desire to do it in the real world.
475
00:53:48.240 –> 00:53:54.540
Christopher Bartel: yeah okay so great um, by the way, let me just back up for one second mentioned the point that you raised about.
476
00:53:56.130 –> 00:54:13.530
Christopher Bartel: pedophiles so if if they get their aggressions out in a fantasy setting somehow that’s better wouldn’t it be better if they didn’t have the desire at all right, I think they’d better if they just didn’t have the desire in the first place um and.
477
00:54:13.590 –> 00:54:15.060
A Ashcraft: But we don’t have there is some bad.
478
00:54:15.120 –> 00:54:15.810
Christopher Bartel: No, we don’t.
479
00:54:16.140 –> 00:54:20.850
Christopher Bartel: right there is some psychological evidence that like there is like.
480
00:54:22.230 –> 00:54:24.720
Christopher Bartel: Sex aversion therapy like to.
481
00:54:25.950 –> 00:54:33.510
Christopher Bartel: rehabilitate somebody from pedophile like desires, is that they have to like retrain themselves to only.
482
00:54:34.380 –> 00:54:49.260
Christopher Bartel: become aroused at non had a feeling or things like that which sounds exactly like the that’s kind of the point that i’m making is that it’s through fiction fantasy that we cultivate a certain thing that we design.
483
00:54:50.370 –> 00:54:54.060
Christopher Bartel: If that kind of therapy actually works that’s exactly what works.
484
00:54:55.380 –> 00:54:56.880
A Ashcraft: Your story sort of making the.
485
00:54:58.650 –> 00:55:00.240
A Ashcraft: The silence of the lambs point.
486
00:55:01.350 –> 00:55:01.950
Oh, what do you mean.
487
00:55:02.970 –> 00:55:03.690
Christopher Bartel: I hope I am.
488
00:55:04.860 –> 00:55:05.220
Shlomo Sher: We.
489
00:55:05.610 –> 00:55:09.840
A Ashcraft: What he what does he tells clarice he says we want what we see every day.
490
00:55:11.340 –> 00:55:15.960
Christopher Bartel: yeah I think that’s right, I mean, and I think that’s the one of the things about.
491
00:55:17.730 –> 00:55:24.000
Christopher Bartel: Like when we talk about fantasy, one thing that we haven’t said here is like when I talk about fantasy think about how.
492
00:55:24.480 –> 00:55:28.590
Christopher Bartel: There are lots of different kinds of fantasies that pop in your head all day long right.
493
00:55:29.130 –> 00:55:37.680
Christopher Bartel: tiny little momentary things where you know, a passing thought you know just POPs into your head and you kind of look at that and think I don’t know where that and then you dismiss it.
494
00:55:38.250 –> 00:55:50.070
Christopher Bartel: Those kind of fantasies are really different from the fantasies that we reinforce over and over again that, like I returned to I think about often I developed, this is a fantasy that stuck with me for years and years.
495
00:55:50.280 –> 00:55:51.060
A Ashcraft: Like I keep.
496
00:55:51.090 –> 00:56:06.450
Christopher Bartel: Coming back to this idea and it becomes part of my identity as part of my like psychological landscape my own head sure it’s a fixed feature of who I am right um so yeah I guess that is I like that.
497
00:56:07.770 –> 00:56:11.400
Christopher Bartel: But now so i’m sorry Shlomo I wanted to interview question about.
498
00:56:11.850 –> 00:56:21.630
Christopher Bartel: you’re absolutely right, like games don’t lead to violence in the straightforward cause and effect, you know scenario like you’re not going to take a happy go lucky kid.
499
00:56:21.990 –> 00:56:39.540
Christopher Bartel: You know who’s who lives in a loving household has everything he needs and the kid plays Francesco for an hour and now he’s a serial or now he’s a doctor like that that we have evidence that shows that doesn’t happen, but i’m suggesting that another kind of thing.
500
00:56:40.740 –> 00:56:56.340
Christopher Bartel: What i’m suggesting is that there, there are cases where a person already has violent tendencies are they already have violent ideologies and what they do is they seek out games that reinforce those ideologies because that’s the world they want to really see.
501
00:56:58.470 –> 00:57:16.020
Christopher Bartel: For another kind of case think about sex video games like we might think that violence and games doesn’t cause people to violence, but Funnily enough, I think most people’s intuition, is that sexism in games really does cause people to adopt sexist beliefs or at least reinforces.
502
00:57:16.590 –> 00:57:28.560
Christopher Bartel: Now right I bet them and kind of person who likes to play games with sexist content is the kind of person who’s already comfortable with you know sexist ideas.
503
00:57:29.010 –> 00:57:46.500
Christopher Bartel: Sure, and I also bet that seeing those beliefs reflected in media is exciting, like all of us want to see ourselves in media, all of us want to see ourselves reflected in movies, that we watch the TV shows that we enjoy characters that appear.
504
00:57:47.670 –> 00:57:55.560
Christopher Bartel: And it reinforces that this is valid, this is real that I can really like this that’s really the kind of person that I want to be.
505
00:57:56.040 –> 00:58:04.260
Shlomo Sher: So, again we’re only talking about the willing play her right the player who willingly so we’re going right the player, that is, like, I want to play battle rapist.
506
00:58:04.530 –> 00:58:06.150
Shlomo Sher: Right, I really.
507
00:58:06.150 –> 00:58:07.170
Shlomo Sher: want to do that.
508
00:58:07.260 –> 00:58:07.830
Shlomo Sher: and
509
00:58:08.250 –> 00:58:20.280
Shlomo Sher: And it reinforces so notice, you talked about immoral desires and morals belief, but it seems to be kind of both of them in a case like that right your immoral desire right to.
510
00:58:21.240 –> 00:58:33.120
Shlomo Sher: To have this kind of you know, violence, sexual fantasy and your immoral belief that and and there we go into whatever kind of sexist beliefs, you might have.
511
00:58:33.990 –> 00:58:38.010
Shlomo Sher: That might support you know your your your your desire right.
512
00:58:38.880 –> 00:58:46.530
A Ashcraft: Was it be sort of easier to say that it reinforces the the belief system which then allows you to have the fantasies.
513
00:58:47.820 –> 00:58:50.040
Christopher Bartel: that’s great I mean i’m a terrible philosopher.
514
00:58:52.020 –> 00:59:00.960
Christopher Bartel: Do desires always involve beliefs i’m not sure, but I know that people are philosophy of mine debate that kind of thing I have no idea where the TV stands right now.
515
00:59:02.940 –> 00:59:16.410
Christopher Bartel: I don’t know I think you could cut that I think I could go kind of either way on this i’m not sure what’s at stake, so I would love to see like what is at stake if I go with one explanation of the other I couldn’t say.
516
00:59:17.010 –> 00:59:17.340
So.
517
00:59:19.800 –> 00:59:23.640
Shlomo Sher: hey Andy I want to really quick check on time, where are we on time.
518
00:59:24.240 –> 00:59:28.200
A Ashcraft: We are at exactly one hour from when we started recording.
519
00:59:28.500 –> 00:59:30.090
A Ashcraft: So we probably have another five minutes.
520
00:59:30.720 –> 00:59:33.180
Shlomo Sher: Okay, then Okay, then.
521
00:59:34.920 –> 00:59:37.770
Shlomo Sher: Then, then let’s do this, let me, let me ask them i’m going to go to.
522
00:59:38.160 –> 00:59:38.550
A Ashcraft: myself.
523
00:59:39.120 –> 00:59:40.980
A Ashcraft: I can tell it’s been a really good conversation.
524
00:59:41.280 –> 00:59:43.170
Shlomo Sher: Yes, I like that.
525
00:59:44.640 –> 00:59:57.060
Shlomo Sher: Okay, I want to I know we’re getting into minutiae here right, so I want to kind of bring it back as part of it was going to be this question of so this question of when is it not okay to do something in the in the game.
526
00:59:57.390 –> 01:00:08.280
Shlomo Sher: Right and and I want to focus back in the ideas, sometimes it’s morally wrong to play a video game when it doing so helps me cultivate right and immoral desire.
527
01:00:09.840 –> 01:00:10.350
Shlomo Sher: So.
528
01:00:11.670 –> 01:00:14.040
Shlomo Sher: Actually, sorry i’m going to scratch, this whole part.
529
01:00:14.340 –> 01:00:14.820
Christopher Bartel: Because we’ve.
530
01:00:14.850 –> 01:00:16.770
Shlomo Sher: pretty much already talked about that.
531
01:00:16.860 –> 01:00:24.390
Christopher Bartel: I can, I can answer really quickly it’s wrong to do something in a game when doing so is to cultivate an immoral desire that’s like the takeaway.
532
01:00:24.540 –> 01:00:25.680
Shlomo Sher: Right that’s what’s really.
533
01:00:25.920 –> 01:00:28.500
Shlomo Sher: So so let’s agree what you’re saying here right.
534
01:00:28.530 –> 01:00:29.550
Shlomo Sher: If I haven’t right.
535
01:00:29.580 –> 01:00:34.170
Shlomo Sher: It means that some gains are can be used by some willing people.
536
01:00:34.410 –> 01:00:36.750
Shlomo Sher: to cultivate an immoral desire and this.
537
01:00:36.810 –> 01:00:50.850
Shlomo Sher: Even if they don’t act on it makes them morally worse characters now is that that’s something we haven’t really talked talked about yet right the idea here, if I have it right, so this is a virtue ethics kind of approach.
538
01:00:51.120 –> 01:00:51.660
Shlomo Sher: Right is.
539
01:00:51.840 –> 01:00:54.420
Shlomo Sher: Is that there’s not because at the end of the day.
540
01:00:55.830 –> 01:01:05.910
Shlomo Sher: You you’re you’re saying that it’s not that we did anything wrong, even the willing character that’s going to go and going to massacre in the game and there’s going to be super happy about that.
541
01:01:06.330 –> 01:01:14.520
Shlomo Sher: Even though they’re not doing anything wrong what they are doing is they are cultivating a sort of character for themselves.
542
01:01:14.820 –> 01:01:17.100
Christopher Bartel: Right they’re not doing wrong actions.
543
01:01:17.160 –> 01:01:34.410
Christopher Bartel: Their actions are, and I think that’s The key thing about the whole video game ethics debate is that, like most of our moral systems, most of our Western moral systems tend to fix a really, really, a lot of attention on the value of actions virtue ethics doesn’t.
544
01:01:36.330 –> 01:01:52.680
Christopher Bartel: there’s nothing wrong with the action of doing something bad enough, but it’s the motivation, that is, the thing that that is morally question like think about imagine, I burn a photograph of my grandfather.
545
01:01:53.700 –> 01:01:56.100
Christopher Bartel: there’s nothing morally wrong about burning pieces of paper.
546
01:01:57.450 –> 01:02:03.570
Christopher Bartel: that’s just an action, but then you could get into the motivation, the question of why did you burn the photograph grandfather.
547
01:02:04.620 –> 01:02:15.570
Christopher Bartel: If it’s some you know reason that’s totally you know harmless like i’ve got a whole bunch of old photos in my house and and just clean up and they need to get rid of them and I dramatically burn them all.
548
01:02:16.080 –> 01:02:32.280
Christopher Bartel: that’s one explanation, but if the explanation is that, like, I have some vindictive hatred of my grandfather, then we could get into a moral conversation about whether that motivation is right, whether like Maybe my vindictive hated my grandfather is not fair.
549
01:02:33.360 –> 01:02:40.740
Christopher Bartel: Think about when we burn political effigies right, I think the same thing that’s happening like there’s nothing wrong with burning people to shed.
550
01:02:41.640 –> 01:02:44.070
Christopher Bartel: But the question is, what is the motivation for.
551
01:02:44.070 –> 01:02:44.790
Christopher Bartel: Why you do.
552
01:02:45.300 –> 01:02:58.080
Shlomo Sher: So, Chris so, is it, so I might have misunderstood so is what’s wrong here that something’s wrong because they come from wrong intent or is the wrong here that you’re just making yourself a worse person.
553
01:02:59.310 –> 01:03:03.150
Christopher Bartel: No Oh, I see okay yeah I express that I see what.
554
01:03:04.830 –> 01:03:16.830
Christopher Bartel: Is the wrong isn’t the action the wrong is the expression of the moral character and My worry is that when we express bad moral character, we end up reinforcing it will become even worse will.
555
01:03:17.670 –> 01:03:18.390
Shlomo Sher: come right.
556
01:03:18.420 –> 01:03:28.650
Christopher Bartel: Think about in red dead redemption to online whole bunch of players go to this one city in the game in order to beat up the Suffragette.
557
01:03:29.070 –> 01:03:35.670
Christopher Bartel: Right there’s a Suffragette at side of the road and she’s like campaigning for suffrage and loads of people beat her up and post videos.
558
01:03:36.510 –> 01:03:43.890
Christopher Bartel: What they’re doing isn’t the action itself isn’t there’s nothing wrong with playing the game nothing wrong right and then deleting pixels on the screen.
559
01:03:44.190 –> 01:03:55.440
Christopher Bartel: But there is something wrong with expressing that value that Suffragettes or people that should be laughed at there’s something wrong with this that you know it’s a worthy target for harassment.
560
01:03:56.310 –> 01:04:01.230
Shlomo Sher: You know, but the way you have it, as what is wrong as you’re making yourself a worse person.
561
01:04:01.350 –> 01:04:03.870
Shlomo Sher: yeah but, but I want to kind of go back to.
562
01:04:05.460 –> 01:04:14.850
Shlomo Sher: You know, especially it’s interesting because if it’s if it’s red dead redemption online right it’s also online and other people are seeing you doing it.
563
01:04:15.150 –> 01:04:16.410
Christopher Bartel: Right there’s like a performance.
564
01:04:17.430 –> 01:04:19.740
Shlomo Sher: yeah, and that makes me different.
565
01:04:19.860 –> 01:04:26.430
A Ashcraft: And that makes yeah I think that makes it very different, because then what you’re saying is is hey, this is a good thing to do and they’re talking.
566
01:04:26.910 –> 01:04:27.300
Christopher Bartel: People.
567
01:04:27.360 –> 01:04:31.050
A Ashcraft: you’re talking to other people who might actually do it not, you would never do it.
568
01:04:31.200 –> 01:04:31.830
Christopher Bartel: Right right.
569
01:04:31.860 –> 01:04:38.220
Christopher Bartel: there’s some so they give you another case and this might be somewhat apocryphal i’ve heard some people question the truth of this case but.
570
01:04:38.640 –> 01:04:43.050
Christopher Bartel: So, Anders breivik is the mass murder in Norway yeah killed.
571
01:04:43.350 –> 01:04:57.540
Christopher Bartel: 78 people he claimed in his court trial he claimed that he played the airport massacre scene in call of duty modern warfare two he played that on a loop as a way of kind of setting himself up for the attack that’s the thing that’s.
572
01:04:58.080 –> 01:05:02.190
Christopher Bartel: that’s the case that I haven’t bought yeah that’s the kind of case that i’m trying to solve.
573
01:05:02.730 –> 01:05:14.460
Christopher Bartel: it’s like if for the average you know player of call of duty if you think if the motivation that drives you through that game is you, like the feeling of being a hero I think you’re okay.
574
01:05:15.360 –> 01:05:21.600
Christopher Bartel: If you’re Anders breivik and you’re actually trying to psych yourself up because you really do fantasize about mass killings.
575
01:05:22.410 –> 01:05:34.140
Christopher Bartel: What you’re doing is you’re reinforcing a belief or a value or an attitude or desire that is going to that is a harmful that you shouldn’t have even if you never actual right.
576
01:05:35.160 –> 01:05:44.880
Christopher Bartel: desires that we don’t act on our desires that we ultimately they frustrates they make us unhappy make us miserable people and that’s not the way to Aristotelian you know.
577
01:05:45.780 –> 01:05:47.790
Shlomo Sher: that’s not the kind of person, you want to be.
578
01:05:47.850 –> 01:05:58.860
Shlomo Sher: Right it’s not the ideal good life okay uh let’s let’s wrap this up by asking about implications right what applications, do you think this would have for the games that we choose to play if any.
579
01:06:00.840 –> 01:06:01.680
Christopher Bartel: yeah that’s a great.
580
01:06:01.800 –> 01:06:12.510
Christopher Bartel: Question um I wish I had more interesting things to say, to game designers but, so what I want to the implication here, I think, is that.
581
01:06:13.470 –> 01:06:21.060
Christopher Bartel: When we choose games I don’t want to tell me I don’t want to censor anything I don’t want to tell people what kind of personally have to be I don’t.
582
01:06:21.270 –> 01:06:26.580
Christopher Bartel: want to tell people what they should value I don’t want to make people feel guilty for video games, what I would love for.
583
01:06:27.030 –> 01:06:38.670
Christopher Bartel: For players to do is to be a bit more conscious and really think more about the reasons why you’re attracted to the games that you’re attracted to because that should tell you something deep about should learn something about yourself.
584
01:06:39.270 –> 01:06:45.600
Christopher Bartel: But you should discover something themselves by figuring out why am I attracted to these games and not something else.
585
01:06:46.740 –> 01:06:52.140
Christopher Bartel: Like I said I don’t think I you know I think the censorship laws we have are probably.
586
01:06:52.650 –> 01:07:05.550
Christopher Bartel: Oh right, I guess, I haven’t thought that deeply about them, but I wouldn’t want to add censorship, for I don’t think that what we need is to use the power of the state to enforce the right kind of all code, I never want to get it back.
587
01:07:07.140 –> 01:07:10.410
Christopher Bartel: To game designers I think the implication is.
588
01:07:11.610 –> 01:07:12.210
Christopher Bartel: um.
589
01:07:13.710 –> 01:07:21.720
Christopher Bartel: I would just suggest the game designers think about Do you really want to give the up, do you really want to give players, the opportunity to do that.
590
01:07:22.200 –> 01:07:31.920
Christopher Bartel: Like think about in red dead redemption online where you can beat up the Suffragettes That was a choice that was a design choice to make the Suffragette a tackle.
591
01:07:32.370 –> 01:07:38.280
Christopher Bartel: She doesn’t have to be like there are characters that he can’t attack you can shoot at them all day long enough happens.
592
01:07:38.940 –> 01:07:52.680
Christopher Bartel: But the choice to make her a tackle is itself a choice um you know for game designers I am they should just assume that, if there is a creepy sleazy gross way of playing your game and somebody is going to find it.
593
01:07:53.400 –> 01:08:03.150
Christopher Bartel: Of course somebody’s going to find it and then you just have to make the decision of like Is this really what you want people to find this thing that you want people to have the opportunity to do.
594
01:08:04.620 –> 01:08:06.060
Shlomo Sher: All right, i’m going to end it on this.
595
01:08:06.210 –> 01:08:06.780
Christopher Bartel: Okay cool.
596
01:08:07.140 –> 01:08:14.850
Shlomo Sher: All right, i’m all right good podcast Andy Chris of our guests was Chris bar tell Professor philosophy appalachian.
597
01:08:14.850 –> 01:08:15.750
Christopher Bartel: State University.
598
01:08:16.440 –> 01:08:23.400
Shlomo Sher: Alright, thanks, Chris play nice everybody
