[Release Date: January 4, 2022] In ‘Knights of the Al-Aqsa Mosque’ you play as a Palestinian resistance fighter working to end the occupation of Palestine. It’s a game where you play someone that looks like a person games typically depict as a terrorist, but from the perspective of that person and his group being the good guys. The game generated a furious reaction from Israelis and Jews.
We found all this fascinating and so decided to do an ethics review of this controversial game.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: Alright Andy so, so this is one of those episodes where a listener, of the show Jody Berman out there tag me on Facebook and said you got to talk about this game on your show.
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Shlomo Sher: The game being knights of the lx a mosque, and this is a game we’ll talk about an in a minute it’s a Palestinian resistance game it’s supposed to come out in December, which we’re in right now i’m assuming that is that is still the case.
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Shlomo Sher: I took a look at the game, or rather I took a look at what people were saying about the game and immediately, I was like she’s right, this is something that we.
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Shlomo Sher: We got to do it so thanks for the topic recommendation Jody if anybody else has a topic web recommendation for us, please, please if it’s an interesting game if it’s an issue that you think has been tackled, let us know.
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Shlomo Sher: Now, the way that I heard about it through God was because this game was making the rounds in Israeli and and Jewish or you know Jews social media right.
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Shlomo Sher: Along with calls for steam the bandit and i’m almost everything I read from in fact just about literally everything I read from Israeli and Jewish media was pretty unanimous about this right.
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Shlomo Sher: So you have this gain a Palestinian Liberation game and which we’ll talk about it again in a moment right it’s.
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Shlomo Sher: considered highly offensive by Israelis and Jews they’re calling for the biker boycott, you and I have talked about serious games on this podcast before right right and and we’ve agreed, you can make a game about anything.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, right um.
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A Ashcraft: So absolutely.
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A Ashcraft: Absolutely no topic should be off the table just because of of its subject matter how you treat it is the important thing.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right, and you know to me having a game on the Israeli, Palestinian conflict is.
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Shlomo Sher: A fantastic thing I want people to make more games about this, I want more people to think about the Israeli, Palestinian conflict we’ve talked about peacemaker, a couple of times in the show.
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Shlomo Sher: which was a project about this began, I think, is a collaboration between Israeli American and Palestinian developers um, this is not a peacemaker.
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A Ashcraft: No.
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Shlomo Sher: No, no, this is a very different take.
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A Ashcraft: yeah, so I think I think it’s important to for for context, to say that this is an extremely indie project.
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A Ashcraft: Yes, this is one guy working on his own he’s a he’s a Palestinian living in Brazil, but he’s working on his own and making this and it’s kind of amazing how much he’s done but it’s also pretty clear that it’s one guy working on his own.
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A Ashcraft: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Right in fact I think he developed it for the you know ps3 and the xbox 360 be working on it for 10 years.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah it’s been certainly worth.
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A Ashcraft: pondering on it for a long time.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, but but part of it is because what you know how big of a studio is it going to take to take on a project like this.
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Shlomo Sher: You know that’s going to be super controversial, etc, so you know, this is where indie developers can do something to bring their vision to the world and that’s that’s really cool.
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A Ashcraft: that’s right but it’s also sort of silly for you know, to hear about these people going oh we’re gonna, we need to boycott this like this is so indie.
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A Ashcraft: it’s only sales are going to be people who already know about it it’s not going to have any sort of advertising budget it’s not going to have any sort of real like like I can’t imagine it’s going to have.
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Shlomo Sher: And yet i’ve heard all about it, you know and and i’ve read it and it’s in newspapers and you know.
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Shlomo Sher: And the Community that cares about it will hear about it, so I mean here’s the idea, so the game is called knights of the alexa mosque you plays a Palestinian resistance fighter working to end the occupation of Palestine.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s interesting because it’s a game where you play someone that looks like a person that we used to seeing and as a terrorist right like literally like the your Avatar looks like the kind of person we kill in other games as terrorists right.
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A Ashcraft: And I honestly I think that’s the most interesting point about it.
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Shlomo Sher: um it is releasing that the decided to go that way, but their point is that.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, you know the beginning of the game test says the Israelis are actually the terrorists this person is actually the good guy.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know they could have dressed him up as a regular Palestinian.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but what they’re saying is the that the Palestinian freedom fighters that we call terrorists are actually the good guys and i’m assuming that’s the.
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Shlomo Sher: No apology i’m going to look like what they say a terrorist looks like but i’m going to convince them that we’re actually the good guys in the game.
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A Ashcraft: Right well it’s from his point of view right.
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A Ashcraft: Right from from a you know PLO.
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A Ashcraft: Point of View pov.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: If that’s what they look like that’s what they look like.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so so he.
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A Ashcraft: Cast them in wet in these Western games we’ve cast them as the enemy.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right so though you know, then there’s a long tradition of treating Arabs right as the you know blanket enemy right and all these Games, where you’re just slaughtering.
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Shlomo Sher: Arab you know enemies, without even thinking about it i’m here, though notice right here it’s not just an Arab right it’s against someone that looks precisely like this, so here’s here’s the.
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Shlomo Sher: The the idea, so this is the game description, a third person action game where you play as Ahmed.
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Shlomo Sher: fellas teeny I am Palestinians student who was unjustly tortured and jailed by Israeli soldiers for five years.
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Shlomo Sher: had all his family killed by an Israeli air strike, and now, after getting out of prison six revenge against those who wronged him.
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Shlomo Sher: killed us family and stolen his homeland by joining a new Palestinian resistance movement, called the for Sana Alaska the knights of the mosque.
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Shlomo Sher: um so it’s obviously it’s a shooter right in case that’s not obvious right, it does come with a disclaimer and I think the disclaimer is important because it kind of it sets the stage, at least in terms of what the designer was was thinking about.
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Shlomo Sher: All the characters art and storylines depicted in this game are purely the work of fiction and he similar though fiction said in a real setting.
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A Ashcraft: Air yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Any similarity to persons living or dead is purely coincidental the plot of the game is a fictional history inspired by real facts.
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Shlomo Sher: we’ve talked before about I think the idea of inspired by real facts.
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Shlomo Sher: mm hmm once you get that there’s always a question of how much as inspired how realistic the supposed to be how educational this is supposed to be.
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A Ashcraft: The real the real place is really just a jumping off point for whatever you want to do, once you say inspired by X X is just stepping off point into into a world that could be entirely fictional.
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Shlomo Sher: Potentially yeah and I think I think part of that is then kind of from an ethics perspective is.
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Shlomo Sher: Are you communicating to the player what is fictional and what is not in your world in a way that meets with no responsibilities, you have to do that and I figured we will talk about that yeah.
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A Ashcraft: And we’ll talk about that.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so it says, even the political, military groups depicted in the Games are fictional in this game, the player does not shoot Israeli civilians, women, children, the elderly, only soldiers.
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Shlomo Sher: Also in this game, there are no images of sexual content illicit drugs religious desecration hate speech against any group ethnicity or religion anti Semitic.
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Shlomo Sher: Anti Semitic Semitic propaganda against Jews Nazi propaganda or boasting of any terrorist group and or any other lawful unlawful likes.
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Shlomo Sher: This game only contains the virtual representation, the Palestinian resistance moving against the Israeli military occupation, which is officially recognized by the UN this game was approved by the Brazilian Government, because this is a developer’s facility right.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so Andy do you want to have a list of complaints do you want to kind of start with those complaints or do you want to start with your impression of it so.
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A Ashcraft: um yeah well, let me, let me start with my impression of it first off there’s a bunch of things about this game that are immediately immediately they tell me, this is not somebody who is particularly interested in creating a realistic world.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, such as.
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Such as.
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A Ashcraft: The the way the character moves your main character way the character jumps is sort of floaty and and he calls it bullet time and the notes.
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A Ashcraft: Because when you jump you the time also slows down, and you, you can hear your jump is sort of weirdly superhuman.
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Shlomo Sher: again.
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A Ashcraft: You know, and this is fine, you know this is this is fine for when you’re creating this it’s a third person shooter.
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A Ashcraft: With this sort of like strange.
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A Ashcraft: unreal kind of behavior for the main character which you’re going to do all the time.
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A Ashcraft: Are you going to do this, all the time and so it’s going to be it in your face the whole time that this is this is really not a very real looking or feeling game.
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Shlomo Sher: You mean that, at least in part, as the as the character you play has this one particular a kind of I don’t know if this is called super heroic but non realistic way of moving.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I mean it’s it’s very much a it’s a it’s a it’s a choice, he made because it’s fun.
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A Ashcraft: Right, as opposed to a choice, he made because it’s realistic.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: So that’s that’s really what that’s the point i’m trying to make as he made he’s he’s made some decisions.
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A Ashcraft: right decisions.
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A Ashcraft: away from realism to make something that is just fun and fun to play.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: You know, and that was his goal and that’s fine I just it’s just important to like put that out there, that that you know if we’re trying to judge it by some sort of realistic portrayal of war.
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A Ashcraft: Then that’s not his goal.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so yeah he’s not trying to make an ultra realistic, I mean in his in his game, you are alone Palestinian fighter, you know virtually dismantling these really defence force right Obviously that is not realistic, though I mean most tutors i’m not realistic if we.
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Shlomo Sher: recommend that way right yeah.
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A Ashcraft: But there’s some of them that that strive for more realism.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: Right right right and we’ll we’ll we’ll get to that one when it comes out.
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A Ashcraft: The the six days and felicia.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: Which is something that’s striving for some sort of realism some sort of emotional realism he’s not striving for any sort of emotional realism.
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A Ashcraft: it’s.
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A Ashcraft: As soon as you jump into the story and start as soon as you jump into the play of it it’s fantasy, all the way up.
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Shlomo Sher: um yeah that.
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A Ashcraft: One to judge it that way.
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A Ashcraft: Because it is intending to make.
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Shlomo Sher: As fantasy yeah and and and, potentially, you know that’s that’s right it’s it, you know as as fantasy as and it’s it’s interesting the kind of fantasy, it could be like you know whether you know, is he making an activist game here.
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Shlomo Sher: You know.
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Shlomo Sher: I feel like in some sense, he is in another sense that.
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A Ashcraft: makes it.
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A Ashcraft: That makes it feel like he’s trying to make an activist game, and you know, on the on the website.
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A Ashcraft: At the end of the video the watch.
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A Ashcraft: there’s a there’s a screen it’s like join now join the resistance right.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re like.
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A Ashcraft: How do I don’t know how to do that there’s not there’s as a call to action it’s a very it’s a very strong call to action but it’s also not a very explicit call it call to action.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but that could just be you know, playing on the theme join my mailing list.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean that could be but to me it doesn’t.
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Shlomo Sher: Look, I mean to me there’s a lot more than this, you know in here.
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A Ashcraft: and
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Shlomo Sher: You know I mean you know just for listeners who don’t know right i’m an Israeli American right, so I moved to when I was nine and a half, I have.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, severely family Jewish friends i’m Jewish I stand closer to this issue, though i’m a i’m a dove when it comes to the Israeli, Palestinian conflict, I think it’s a very, very complicated issue.
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Shlomo Sher: And I hope no one gets me in trouble for, and I feel like this is a very dangerous topic for me to talk about here, but I also am now you know I also not exactly sure what I think about this game.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but I think the complaints that people have here are you know, in the beginning.
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Shlomo Sher: I didn’t take them very seriously, because I looked at this and I was like this is just somebody kind of wishing playing a fantasy of if only I could have this thing you know.
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Shlomo Sher: um but I mean if you listen to complain so here’s here’s one one complaint right the pro Israeli group stand with us, which is a very big pros barely group.
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Shlomo Sher: posted this on Facebook and essentially they called it a hate game that encourages players and presumably other to murder, Jews and it says that the game encourages terrorist attacks against us.
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Shlomo Sher: The Simon Wiesenthal Center, which is an Anti semitism watchdog, which is, I think, quite respectable.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah us right says there’s no question that this game glorifies Palestinian terror against Jews and is not a neutral exercise this is something that praises and glorify is the worst type of terror and basically promotes a result which would cost hundreds of thousands of people’s lives.
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Shlomo Sher: And they call for steam to boycott at.
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Shlomo Sher: The international legal Forum, which is a pro is rarely advocacy group calls this and hinge glorification of violence and incitement to terror.
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Shlomo Sher: That may place valve in direct violation of US anti terror laws, because they’re essentially supporting terrorism with this as a recruitment tool for for terrorism right um these are this good, this is a very long way right from simply like a fantasy so and notice.
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A Ashcraft: Except it’s really not right, I mean fantasies do a great job of doing things like recruiting people to causes.
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A Ashcraft: rate for that.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so that that makes sense to me that is a that seems like a legitimate complaint, and you know if you assume that the PLO as a terrorist organization and there’s really, really good argument for for that.
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Shlomo Sher: And there is no PLO.
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Shlomo Sher: doesn’t exist anymore yeah that’s that’s okay.
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A Ashcraft: I mean yeah yeah i’m 160 years old, so so my.
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A Ashcraft: My.
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A Ashcraft: My references are quite all.
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Shlomo Sher: Your fault that in a mass so I must control in Gaza fact that controlling the West back.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: and clearly I know nothing about what’s going on but assuming that that you know.
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A Ashcraft: I know that.
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A Ashcraft: Hamas.
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A Ashcraft: there’s a good argument I don’t know about the other one, I know that for for Hamas there’s there’s a very good argument that that.
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A Ashcraft: That talks about it, you know at least being friendly to terrorist organizations, if not being a terrorist.
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Shlomo Sher: organization on the list of terrorist organizations there on the.
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Shlomo Sher: list of their own right so.
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A Ashcraft: Whether they see themselves as terrorists or not that’s exactly.
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A Ashcraft: Right see us drone strikes in places as terrorists as terrorists X.
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A Ashcraft: So right so in some ways, terrorism is in the eye of the beholder.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and this is one of those things that really kind of bothered me about about this about trying to say what worried me so much about this game.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, because my first impression of it was yeah terrorism is in the eye of the beholder um you know if someone wants to make a game where they’re telling the story of the freedom fighter.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I mean a I think they should be allowed to do that, because people should be allowed to tell stories.
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Shlomo Sher: So you know I didn’t think steam should should ban it and be in this particular context you know it seems to me that certainly.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s a very different context, then you know the kind of game where.
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Shlomo Sher: You know your ISIS and your job is to throw the point of the game of thrones gay people off towers and to behead Shiite Muslims.
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Shlomo Sher: uh you know into rate by your city, you know women right That to me is not you know to mean there’s a big difference between those things, though I struggled to to figure out what we’re exactly the draw the line right.
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A Ashcraft: Here is clearly there’s clearly like there’s a lot of space between those two positions right.
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Shlomo Sher: A lot of space between those positions at the same time, I think it’s also really important to go back to the description, the the.
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Shlomo Sher: disclaimer that this guy has right so notice, I mean he’s like look i’m not you know in this game you don’t harm anybody except soldiers.
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Shlomo Sher: And how then can you have all these complaints calling it a game about murdering Jews, I hate game, all this and I think I think some of that some of that stuff needs some explanation.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah so there’s a couple of things, because when I first read the disclaimer I was like okay you kill soldiers, you know there’s nothing you’re not going up and blowing school buses of children in this game and calling it like liberation.
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Shlomo Sher: ain’t right, so the open line of the trailer says with bullets and blood, we will free Palestine and.
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Shlomo Sher: So notice right away right, I mean that’s a pretty violent call for the.
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Shlomo Sher: And the the trailer essentially tells us of all the terrible thing that Israelis have done, and due to Palestinians.
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Shlomo Sher: rejects that Palestinians are the terrorists and essentially you know set you up for it to be the the freedom fighter, but it is clearly it seems to be advocating violence as the solution and right.
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A Ashcraft: right for sure for for absolutely sure, and so, and for that we can, if we want a comparison, if we want a game to compare it to we can look at the US army game image, you know came out 15 years ago, or whatever it was where.
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A Ashcraft: It was a team team vs team online, you know tactical warfare game.
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Okay.
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A Ashcraft: When.
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A Ashcraft: You when you always play as a US army soldier.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: But you’re playing online, and so the other team looks to you as if they’re Arabs.
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Shlomo Sher: Every time.
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A Ashcraft: Every time.
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Shlomo Sher: Every time and and.
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A Ashcraft: You look like Arabs to them.
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A Ashcraft: So they look they look like US Army soldiers on their screens.
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A Ashcraft: Right look like an Arab and on your screen you look like the US army soldier, and they look like Arabs.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: And this was paid for.
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Shlomo Sher: by the government.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: As a recruiting tool.
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Shlomo Sher: Right literally as a quick quick tool which is yeah I think there’s so much to say about this.
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Shlomo Sher: But is this a new know.
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A Ashcraft: fantasy, I mean it’s ultimately it was a fantasy.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, but it was a problematic fantasy, yes, I mean yeah you definitely right you you’re right you’re right the fantasy can can be powerful I mean this is clearly a problematic fantasy.
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Shlomo Sher: And again, you might say that you know, I have a lot of problems with you know america’s army, as you know, as as a game.
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Shlomo Sher: Because, maybe you know in some sense that it does seem to say that you know, violence is going to be the solution, but in in some sense this is more of a hypothetical than this, this is taking a position.
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Shlomo Sher: On the Israeli, Palestinian conflict and saying right the freedom will come with blood.
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Shlomo Sher: right when you die, it says when you die you get this bloodied hand you get this handgun and a knife and a Palestinian flag and it says you became a martyr rejoice O mother of the monitor rejoice.
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Shlomo Sher: prepare yourself for marriage in Paradise tie the band on all pain and spread his wedding handkerchiefs spread your anger against the oppressor his injustice must be stopped, you know this, this idea of like again you’re promoting martyrs here, you know no.
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A Ashcraft: But then what happens.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, I mean you get to play again.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: I mean you know it’s still a game is.
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A Ashcraft: not really that much of a martyrdom is it.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, but it is, but as it’s certainly encouraging the idea of martyrdom yes right right.
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A Ashcraft: Especially the part of the part, I think that that you’re saying and I fully agree with is that even as a fantasy, it is promoting.
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A Ashcraft: The path to peace comes with.
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A Ashcraft: Military defeating the enemy your enemies militarily.
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Shlomo Sher: A.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, no other.
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A Ashcraft: And there is no other path to peace here.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, and and again part of me wants to say and that’s Okay, because that’s one perspective right.
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A Ashcraft: it’s not a very useful perspective.
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Shlomo Sher: But you know, on the other hand, I mean what are they talking about when they talking about martyrs, you know part of it is also looking at.
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Shlomo Sher: You have your situation where you have asymmetrical warfare.
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Shlomo Sher: Right um and essentially if you are a soldier here you’re not really going to be attacking the idea for the most part right you’re going to become a martyr by being let’s say a suicide bomber killing innocent people that’s really how that works, because.
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A Ashcraft: For some, I mean.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, but that’s, the only thing available to you you’re you know you’re engaging guerrilla warfare you don’t have those are your targets, this is just the reality of the political situation want.
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A Ashcraft: To draw a distinction between guerrilla warfare and terrorist tactics.
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Shlomo Sher: Fair enough, fair enough.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I.
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A Ashcraft: do want to make a distinction there because.
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A Ashcraft: We do a lot of guerrilla warfare and we try to avoid terrorists tactics.
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Shlomo Sher: Sure right, you know, this is where guerrilla warfare against military targets barely works and is almost never done it’s almost always into civilian targets.
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Shlomo Sher: And that’s when you become a martyr again I could potentially see that being potentially justifiable in the sense if you are, you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Trying to justify the grossing justice that’s happening, maybe something like that could happen, but I think it’s clear that it is kind of supporting that.
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Shlomo Sher: And then there’s a line that keeps going in the game, you know from the River to the sea Palestinian will Palestine will be free right.
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Shlomo Sher: And that seems to imply that Palestinians will get all the land back.
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Shlomo Sher: uh what’s going to happen to you know the millions of people that are doing that live there.
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Shlomo Sher: Are they going to be driven into the seat that they’re going to be murdered um what you know what exactly you know is.
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A Ashcraft: This I don’t think he he doesn’t suggest a solution.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: Right any of that.
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A Ashcraft: it’s just.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s go kill see let’s go kill some shows.
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A Ashcraft: me military.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, right right um but you know the game says that the the developer, says the game addresses the conflict from a Palestinian perspective right but.
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Shlomo Sher: Is he addressing the conflict by going on a killing spree or is he just having a fantasy of going on a killing spree right right.
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A Ashcraft: And that’s why that’s why I ultimately I think that that.
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A Ashcraft: That it doesn’t it doesn’t do what I think he hopes it will do.
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Shlomo Sher: Which is.
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A Ashcraft: Well, I mean assuming that because because he had because he has these conflict these he’s he makes these creative choices from conflicting points of view right he wants it to be this fun fantasy thing, but he also wants it to be inspiring.
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
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A Ashcraft: But when it comes to the points where it might be inspiring it sort of falls flat.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe I mean.
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A Ashcraft: You know I mean i’m not i’m not there, it might.
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Shlomo Sher: hit late.
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A Ashcraft: The the very the very.
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A Ashcraft: The simple fact of him having recast, you know, put the put somebody who looks like he does in the hero position, maybe all it takes.
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A Ashcraft: But other moments like there’s a there’s a moment in one of the videos where he is broken into some sort of US Israeli military compound and he fires got he fires bullets into.
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A Ashcraft: A Bulletin board that has has pictures of.
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A Ashcraft: You know, some military leader some.
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A Ashcraft: Israeli or US military leader right and literally nothing happens like it doesn’t change the pictures it doesn’t do any damage to the pictures it’s just him firing bullets into something that doesn’t doesn’t even like show bullet holes.
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Shlomo Sher: Well that’s.
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A Ashcraft: that’s a fail.
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Shlomo Sher: Well that’s just that’s a design fail, but you know, in terms of.
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A Ashcraft: Also, but it’s a it’s a fail like that, though, that was a that could have been a.
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A Ashcraft: Like a moment like that could have been a.
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A Ashcraft: moment a symbolic moment.
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A Ashcraft: Right ends up being the reverse of what he thinks it does, because for all of his shooting into it, nothing actually changed.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, and and maybe that’s the metaphor of the game itself, you know I don’t know right because because but.
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Shlomo Sher: At the same time, you know, to me, this is kind of you know, when when when we think about these kind of a when we talked about six days in Fallujah when we think about these kinds of games.
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Shlomo Sher: We talked about kind of obligations, not to miss educate and not to harm right not not to cause harm, and you know i’m not sure how much you know.
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Shlomo Sher: If i’m concerned about miss education here because there’s you know I don’t know how many facts, there are, I really don’t, mind you know it doesn’t seem like.
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Shlomo Sher: It doesn’t seem like it’s very loaded on facts but isn’t going to do harm and to mean that part was really interesting because I was thinking about.
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Shlomo Sher: You know this isn’t the first like you know anti Israel, you know as well, again, you know i’m, for example, right there’s there’s a.
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Shlomo Sher: classic game called special forces developed by Hezbollah in Syria, where essentially a you you go ahead and you’re you’re attacking Israelis and you can do things like.
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Shlomo Sher: shoot pictures of Israeli soldiers, just like you said, and they do show bullet holes right right.
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Shlomo Sher: This is an old an old old game, it was very popular because.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m imagining people in the West Bank and Gaza that want to essentially get up their own frustrations on an enemy that they kind of identify whether there’s something that could be really.
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Shlomo Sher: You know enjoyable about you know shooting the person that you don’t like right now, even if it doesn’t you know, even if you’re not tearing off the pamphlet off the wall or putting a bullet hole in the picture.
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Shlomo Sher: But at the same time, I was like Okay, so are people gonna play this game and then be like yeah you know I want to join the resistance and I want to become a martyr.
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Shlomo Sher: And my immediate thought was like people living in like the West Bank or Gaza and not going to be like now that i’ve played this game I realized the horror.
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Shlomo Sher: right because they live in.
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Shlomo Sher: because their life suck because this is a horrible situation for them right right.
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Shlomo Sher: They don’t need it again my kind of tell them that.
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A Ashcraft: What it might do is inspire kids from Palestinian families who are living in Brazil or other places to want to go back.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so you know this to me is the biggest concern you know whether it’s that or whether it’s a people in you know other Arabs other Muslims in other countries that are more distant where this would this would set up the tone of the conflict to them, and that this would essentially.
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Shlomo Sher: encourage them to either competition pay, you know physically or donate money for you know.
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Shlomo Sher: organizations like a mass for violent conflict or or.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, even though this game is you know this game is anti Israel or at least anti IDF I mean to me this game seems anti Israel.
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Shlomo Sher: Because I mean if you’re going to talk about we’re going to liberate Palestine, the entire the entire country that’s no more Israel so that seems clearly anti Israel.
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Shlomo Sher: But he says it’s not anti Semitic to a lot of Israelis those two things mean the same thing right not to me I think it’s a ridiculous comparison yeah.
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A Ashcraft: And I I tend to agree and I know almost nothing about it so.
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Shlomo Sher: How ever you know i’ve seen plenty of you know of Arabic discussions of Jews that conflate the two all the time yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: um so to me it’s like even though you can say it’s anti Israeli and you can really be only anti Israeli not anti Jew, but the fact of the matter is that plenty of people do end up treating those two things as the same.
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Right.
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Shlomo Sher: And that this is a problem and there’s a lot of anti Semitism in Arab countries in a really, really big way and.
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A Ashcraft: yeah again and it’s and it’s a problem that they do conflate Israel, the country the government with is with Jewish people.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah um you know I mean that’s and again this and it’s easy to do that.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean it’s it’s something that you, you naturally would do unless you take special steps to make sure that your population understands the difference and.
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Shlomo Sher: This is, you know when we say like well, we were criticizing the Chinese Government but we’re not criticizing the Chinese people right right, I mean when we when you know when people say stuff like that right um so I worry about that.
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A Ashcraft: it’s yeah and it leads to you know, a spike in hate crimes against Chinese people in the US.
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A Ashcraft: When you know when when rhetoric ramps up against Chinese Government.
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Shlomo Sher: Without that qualification.
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Shlomo Sher: Even with the cooperation well.
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A Ashcraft: there’s there’s people who just don’t hear it.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right right but, again, the qualification is one of those things that make a difference for the people who are willing to listen to the qualification.
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Shlomo Sher: right here, I worried that, essentially, you have a game, that is, even if it doesn’t intend, and I buy I buy that the developer doesn’t intend, you know anything I think semantic.
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Shlomo Sher: I imagine that this would be to know right right, so you know I give people the benefit that that you know this is yeah it’s just who I am that’s.
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A Ashcraft: you’re a good guy thanks.
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A Ashcraft: I assume that when somebody’s written a legal disclaimer they’ve done it for legal reasons.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: You know that could very well be again you think of that that thing about promoting terrorism, etc, etc.
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Shlomo Sher: But you know I can certainly you know Palestinians i’ve known, at least in the United States have drawn that line very, very clearly yeah and I, you know I certainly am willing to give benefit the doubt but that doesn’t mean that you still shouldn’t worry about.
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Shlomo Sher: That consequences right.
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A Ashcraft: How other people are going to take your work if you’re not super super clear.
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Shlomo Sher: Right okay now now Andy Okay, I said that yeah but now here’s where I find myself at this kind of impact, so I i’ve come to the point where i’m like.
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Shlomo Sher: I see a lot of things about this game that I don’t like at the same time, and we said in the beginning.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you should be able to make a game like this, and when I say you should be able to make a game like this, I don’t mean like legally, no one should stop you from doing it right, you know, or you know, and I also don’t mean that.
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Shlomo Sher: You have a right, no matter what game, you make to have a distributed on steam, because you know I don’t believe that either I think you know we’ve talked about the appropriateness of stuff like this.
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Shlomo Sher: But I do want to say that someone should be able to make a game that is a military game with this conflict, but yet doesn’t drive people to anti semitism and doesn’t drive people to let’s say you know.
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Shlomo Sher: promote terrorism and lead to innocent people dying whether it’s the terrorists themselves as they become martyrs, or whether it’s innocent civilians right, how is that done, how do you take a game like this and soften it.
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A Ashcraft: So so to some degree, we are now arguing from a point of view, where we take the criticism for granted.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: The the the the as Simon Wiesenthal Center the other people who are saying that this is, this is a game that promotes terrorism.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, I don’t think so, I think you know I you know when when I first when I first thought when you.
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A Ashcraft: Say can we possibly make a game where that doesn’t happen, arguably, this guy who made this game says, I did here it is.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: um because he’s because he said that he is not promoting terrorism and yet Simon Wiesenthal disagrees on about as much information as you and I have.
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Shlomo Sher: A right right um you.
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Shlomo Sher: Again, knows we’re not just taking the criticism for for granted, I feel like we’ve kind of talked and explain why you know that criticism seems to be at least.
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Shlomo Sher: At least partly are mostly some valid, to some extent I you know, again I don’t think I don’t think this is a hate game at all, you know, to me, I don’t think this is a hate game, I think you know that.
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A Ashcraft: You and Simon Wiesenthal disagree.
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Shlomo Sher: um yeah Well, this is the group’s stand with us, but yeah does this glorified Palestinian terror.
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Shlomo Sher: In a sense.
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Shlomo Sher: right but.
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A Ashcraft: it’s certainly not a nuisance than that they’re not supposed to fight back.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right so right, so what So what do you do is it that you take things out like you know, like becoming a martyr like was that really necessary.
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Shlomo Sher: Like the idea of becoming a martyr like you should be what if, instead, you know what if, instead, they have you should be willing to die for the freedom of your people.
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Shlomo Sher: Right uh is that.
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A Ashcraft: i’m saying you became a martyr you just died for the freedom of your people.
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Shlomo Sher: Does that says that satisfying.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, do you need to say you just die for the you need to make a big deal because this idea of celebrating the death.
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Shlomo Sher: is a really interesting thing right and it’s a big thing in in Palestinian you know culture to celebrate the deaths of the people who gave their lives for the struggle right right.
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A Ashcraft: And, and not just there, but here to.
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Shlomo Sher: write whenever Whenever someone gives their life for the struggle yeah you mean right um, but in this case.
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Shlomo Sher: Again, the and I don’t know how you do this without taking sides right, I mean the struggle is you know, terrorism, I mean that’s you know, in this particular context.
340
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Shlomo Sher: Unless you are just look doing what they’re doing in the game which is let’s say not terrorism, because they’re attacking soldiers.
341
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A Ashcraft: Right.
342
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Shlomo Sher: It is more like guerrilla warfare in that in that kind of situation.
343
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A Ashcraft: Right and that’s and that’s the way that we’ve that that you know all of our military shooters have presented, that as well.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m.
345
00:38:58.620 –> 00:39:00.570
Shlomo Sher: sure you go on missions you’re.
346
00:39:00.720 –> 00:39:01.800
Shlomo Sher: going against.
347
00:39:01.860 –> 00:39:14.070
A Ashcraft: Against enemy enemy soldiers enemy soldiers are easily recognizable because they’re their interests as as enemies soldiers or you know or your or they’re making it or they’re doing it.
348
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A Ashcraft: To be trixie they’re saying ooh these enemy soldiers are dressed as civilians figure out which ones are which.
349
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Okay hey.
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A Ashcraft: which you know, and I, and I can see that as well.
351
00:39:28.140 –> 00:39:29.790
A Ashcraft: But then, but then you’re like well.
352
00:39:29.820 –> 00:39:31.590
A Ashcraft: Now they actually do have you shooting it.
353
00:39:32.610 –> 00:39:35.160
A Ashcraft: at civilians, where people will look like civilians, at least.
354
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Shlomo Sher: You know.
355
00:39:36.390 –> 00:39:37.770
A Ashcraft: telling you that they’re not civilians.
356
00:39:38.190 –> 00:39:48.510
Shlomo Sher: Interestingly enough, you know, Israel, you know pretty much everybody is a soldier right every adults right because we have universal you know subscription.
357
00:39:49.530 –> 00:39:50.550
Shlomo Sher: Sorry, conscription.
358
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Shlomo Sher: Right.
359
00:39:53.550 –> 00:39:54.120
Shlomo Sher: Though it’s not.
360
00:39:54.540 –> 00:40:02.310
A Ashcraft: I mean you’re not a soldier all the time, but you are you, you do have to be be a soldier, you have you are you’re obliged to be a soldier for a little while at.
361
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Shlomo Sher: least right and at least man and it’s more complicated for for women, but you know and it’s interesting if that makes you know your random man on the street, you know, a ballad target right if they are a soldier just not in the uniform at that moment.
362
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Shlomo Sher: But they are you know.
363
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Shlomo Sher: When we talk in my class about about just theory or just war theory right, sometimes we talk about who counts as an enemy, you know as as your enemy, that you can you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Actually target yeah, and this is one of those interesting kind of situations where it’s really which, which is really unusual right where all your citizens can quick can easily I mean I remember my my dad having like an Uzi in the closet you know.
365
00:40:53.760 –> 00:40:54.690
Shlomo Sher: Right, where you’re.
366
00:40:54.840 –> 00:41:05.160
Shlomo Sher: you’re innocent citizens could very easily, or at least a lot of them turn into soldiers, all of a sudden right, how do you how do you treat them again, though, you know.
367
00:41:07.080 –> 00:41:07.410
Shlomo Sher: I.
368
00:41:07.740 –> 00:41:11.640
A Ashcraft: don’t think if I can, if I can delve into Star Wars for just a moment.
369
00:41:11.760 –> 00:41:12.900
Shlomo Sher: Of course, clearly.
370
00:41:13.500 –> 00:41:13.890
Yes.
371
00:41:15.060 –> 00:41:36.360
A Ashcraft: One of the moments in my My guess episode three where anaconda is going to the dark side, he he goes off into the desert of tattooing and he kills an entire tribe men, women and children of these desert dwelling you know desert garbage people.
372
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isn’t.
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A Ashcraft: yeah out of revenge for his dead mother.
374
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Right.
375
00:41:45.810 –> 00:42:01.950
A Ashcraft: And, on one hand, we accept it because oh right because he’s gone off into the desert and killed a bunch of Arab looking people, even though they’re aliens and Star Wars and they’re not air Arabs, but at the same time it’s very much like his first step towards going evil.
376
00:42:03.360 –> 00:42:05.130
Shlomo Sher: i’d say that’s a big first step.
377
00:42:05.310 –> 00:42:11.910
Shlomo Sher: Right that’s a very, very evil step right so So what do we, what do we to take from that.
378
00:42:11.970 –> 00:42:12.330
well.
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00:42:13.470 –> 00:42:14.580
A Ashcraft: Two things first off.
380
00:42:17.220 –> 00:42:28.590
A Ashcraft: It was very easy for George Lucas to create you know basically have these people out in the desert and he goes out and and and kills them all oh right.
381
00:42:29.160 –> 00:42:38.670
A Ashcraft: There their lives, their lives are useful only in the sense of they are they’re there to portray some inner turmoil on the on the main characters part which.
382
00:42:39.690 –> 00:42:40.950
Shlomo Sher: means not real people.
383
00:42:41.100 –> 00:42:42.390
A Ashcraft: But they’re not real people, and then it was.
384
00:42:42.390 –> 00:42:44.640
A Ashcraft: Right right we’re talking about a game to.
385
00:42:45.210 –> 00:42:54.060
A Ashcraft: Without rules that are not real people, but when i’m but the point is it’s very easy to like in Western culture for us to just accept that and not ever question it.
386
00:42:55.230 –> 00:42:55.770
Shlomo Sher: Okay.
387
00:42:57.000 –> 00:43:04.590
Shlomo Sher: Yes, as as we, as we said before right the representation right of our enemies is is clearly clearly important.
388
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A Ashcraft: Right right.
389
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A Ashcraft: So that’s that’s that’s the first takeaway for it, the second takeaway, for it is.
390
00:43:11.790 –> 00:43:18.540
A Ashcraft: You know, even within Star Wars, even within the the the the high fantasy extreme.
391
00:43:20.430 –> 00:43:24.180
A Ashcraft: You know that was a moment of him going evil, not of him, being a good guy.
392
00:43:25.830 –> 00:43:26.340
A Ashcraft: So.
393
00:43:27.690 –> 00:43:32.910
A Ashcraft: You know, even though even the simple morality of Star Wars sees that as as bad.
394
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A Ashcraft: As so, and so I wouldn’t not expect, so I would not expect anyone.
395
00:43:40.110 –> 00:43:47.130
A Ashcraft: To to go and have you kill, you have you killed, women and children in a game like this, because we all know that that’s bad.
396
00:43:48.720 –> 00:43:55.500
Shlomo Sher: Right, and yet the reality of the conflict is that women and children are killed.
397
00:43:56.610 –> 00:43:57.630
Shlomo Sher: by both sides.
398
00:43:57.840 –> 00:44:02.640
A Ashcraft: Right and and in his game you rescue women and children.
399
00:44:03.900 –> 00:44:08.970
A Ashcraft: Not by protecting them, but by strapping them on your back and then leaping around in the gunfire.
400
00:44:09.810 –> 00:44:11.520
Shlomo Sher: He has which has some bizarre.
401
00:44:12.540 –> 00:44:12.870
A Ashcraft: it’s.
402
00:44:14.820 –> 00:44:16.410
Shlomo Sher: bizarre thing to do.
403
00:44:17.700 –> 00:44:21.870
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s interesting you know, some people complain that.
404
00:44:23.790 –> 00:44:37.260
Shlomo Sher: One of the missions, so one of the missions is to dismantle the iron Dome defensive Israel right and essentially that you know they claim it’s a mission that if you did that thousands of people would die.
405
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Shlomo Sher: You know now I don’t know if I mean it’s interesting like if someone takes the iron Dome Defense from Israel and the result of that would be a mass launching.
406
00:44:50.370 –> 00:44:54.180
Shlomo Sher: Thousands of rockets let’s say from Gaza into Israel.
407
00:44:54.990 –> 00:45:08.970
Shlomo Sher: Some of some of them killing people but not many, but the reaction would be that in order to stop this the Israeli military would have to go in and probably occupy Gaza again, which would result in many, many, many more Palestinians dead.
408
00:45:10.200 –> 00:45:11.400
Shlomo Sher: Which is you know.
409
00:45:12.960 –> 00:45:20.940
A Ashcraft: it’s interesting because within the fantasy it assumes that with that with the iron fence the iron Dome gone.
410
00:45:21.360 –> 00:45:23.370
A Ashcraft: Right Israel would just surrender.
411
00:45:23.910 –> 00:45:27.540
Shlomo Sher: Or would be all of a sudden it’s vulnerable and now your rockets.
412
00:45:28.110 –> 00:45:29.400
Shlomo Sher: And again, this is.
413
00:45:30.390 –> 00:45:36.720
A Ashcraft: All fire on it at once, or something and turn it into a you know, a radioactive pile of glass I don’t know.
414
00:45:36.870 –> 00:45:39.720
A Ashcraft: Right i’m not entirely sure what the fantasy is there right.
415
00:45:40.320 –> 00:45:47.190
Shlomo Sher: right because and again this is where it’s like part, this is where i’m split on this part of me but it’s just fantasy.
416
00:45:47.580 –> 00:45:58.530
Shlomo Sher: This is so farm divorced from reality that but another part of me really kind of has this concerned about the increase, you know increase anti semitism that I think really could come from in.
417
00:45:59.040 –> 00:46:09.210
Shlomo Sher: People motivated by too much, I tried to think of other situations that might be kind of a game like this, and it was very hard, because the situation is so unusual.
418
00:46:09.480 –> 00:46:11.310
Shlomo Sher: It was very, very hard.
419
00:46:11.580 –> 00:46:23.640
Shlomo Sher: The closest I was thinking about a you know the closest thing I could think of was a game where you play let’s say the weaker weaker resistance in Xinjiang.
420
00:46:24.270 –> 00:46:24.960
Shlomo Sher: In China.
421
00:46:25.350 –> 00:46:33.180
Shlomo Sher: Maybe it to beaten resistance in Tibet right both would be essentially right and China, where you have this.
422
00:46:34.350 –> 00:46:49.890
Shlomo Sher: Much more powerful adversary your you have legitimate claims right and this part really it’s not like you know, an independence, because we want our you know our ethno state or anything like that yeah you know legitimate legitimate claims.
423
00:46:51.120 –> 00:46:55.530
Shlomo Sher: And how hard it would be to make a game right where you are.
424
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Shlomo Sher: You know you try to win back to bed, or you know you try to you know I don’t know what you would do Xinjiang, you know get the government to get China to give up on Xinjiang like that, like that would ever happen.
425
00:47:12.810 –> 00:47:14.400
Shlomo Sher: Right and yeah.
426
00:47:14.460 –> 00:47:18.270
A Ashcraft: You could do, if you could do one thing that cripples their military Defense.
427
00:47:18.930 –> 00:47:24.690
Shlomo Sher: One thing right in a fantasy right and again this is, you know if you.
428
00:47:24.840 –> 00:47:25.440
Shlomo Sher: James one.
429
00:47:25.470 –> 00:47:28.650
A Ashcraft: If you could just hit the exhaust port with one torpedo.
430
00:47:29.220 –> 00:47:31.740
Shlomo Sher: hey right so we’re going back to.
431
00:47:32.400 –> 00:47:32.820
A Ashcraft: Our words.
432
00:47:32.850 –> 00:47:33.240
Yes.
433
00:47:34.320 –> 00:47:37.770
A Ashcraft: Because it’s it’s honestly the closest analogue that we have.
434
00:47:38.850 –> 00:47:54.810
A Ashcraft: Right it’s this it’s a it’s a Resistance Army, with some legitimate claims we don’t even really know what their legitimate claims are and it’s a it’s a vastly powerful empire that they’re fighting against and all it takes is one guy.
435
00:47:56.100 –> 00:48:06.840
Shlomo Sher: Right right again right and that that’s the fantasy right that this all goes with, and again I think game should have room for fantasy.
16
00:01:07.110 –> 00:01:14.970
A Ashcraft: Okay, so there’s another game that also has been getting a lot of a lot of attention it’s a few years older got a bunch of awards.
17
00:01:16.230 –> 00:01:24.150
A Ashcraft: called Lila and the shadows of war and it’s a very different take on the on the same.
18
00:01:25.410 –> 00:01:36.480
A Ashcraft: On on the same real world issues right, but in this case it’s about a man and his family, trying to survive a night of bombing attacks and.
19
00:01:38.100 –> 00:01:43.080
A Ashcraft: it’s unclear where where they are, but i’m we’re presuming there in Palestine somewhere.
20
00:01:43.530 –> 00:01:47.970
Shlomo Sher: i’m assuming it’s Gaza that that would be that would be my my assumption in the game.
21
00:01:49.260 –> 00:01:54.030
Shlomo Sher: And in fact I think it’s actually based, I think it actually says that it’s based in Gaza.
22
00:01:54.360 –> 00:01:54.840
A Ashcraft: that’s right.
23
00:01:55.980 –> 00:01:59.310
A Ashcraft: And it’s a 2d game it’s cartoony.
24
00:02:00.600 –> 00:02:17.100
A Ashcraft: To a certain degree, but it’s also very affecting right it’s also a very effective way of of portraying this family’s the emotion of this of this of this man trying to keep his family alive through through a night of.
25
00:02:18.510 –> 00:02:19.560
A Ashcraft: horrific warfare.
26
00:02:21.120 –> 00:02:30.150
Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean it’s you know it’s it’s dark it’s gloomy it, you know it took a man, oh no half hour to play something like that.
27
00:02:30.240 –> 00:02:32.700
A Ashcraft: To the side scroller game it doesn’t take long to play.
28
00:02:33.360 –> 00:02:34.830
A Ashcraft: But that’s very poignant.
29
00:02:35.700 –> 00:02:48.180
Shlomo Sher: um yeah it’s interesting right, I mean you’re you’re almost a you know essentially everything you go you go into a I think you go into a school and it gets blown up again to an ambulance and it gets blown up.
30
00:02:49.410 –> 00:02:52.920
Shlomo Sher: You know, essentially you watch as.
31
00:02:54.180 –> 00:03:09.690
Shlomo Sher: The you know your wife dies, and then later your your daughter dies and that’s yeah and and, at the end of the game you’re being told that all that everything in the game was based on real events that happened to Palestinians and great.
32
00:03:11.940 –> 00:03:12.450
Shlomo Sher: damn it.
33
00:03:13.830 –> 00:03:19.560
Shlomo Sher: i’m sorry, none of this none of this came through, for me, oh no a.
34
00:03:20.130 –> 00:03:20.820
A Ashcraft: Not recording.
35
00:03:21.690 –> 00:03:30.060
Shlomo Sher: The opposite shit uh for some reason my recording dropped my.
36
00:03:31.650 –> 00:03:36.420
Shlomo Sher: MIC sensitivity, once we stopped drop to 00.
37
00:03:36.420 –> 00:03:39.120
Shlomo Sher: weird so and I can’t change it without stopping.
38
00:03:39.990 –> 00:03:41.310
Shlomo Sher: So we need to stop one more time.
39
00:03:41.640 –> 00:03:45.330
Shlomo Sher: Okay, I need to stop the recording my recording okay.
40
00:03:49.020 –> 00:03:52.050
Shlomo Sher: And let me just cut out this part.
41
00:03:59.400 –> 00:04:02.520
Shlomo Sher: No word could just cut up this whole partnership.
42
00:04:05.070 –> 00:04:09.450
Shlomo Sher: Man i’m catching a cold, I think, oh no it’s been a long time.
43
00:04:13.170 –> 00:04:15.240
A Ashcraft: yeah there’s one thing that pandemics been great for.
44
00:04:15.300 –> 00:04:20.130
Shlomo Sher: No credit yeah shit it oh.
45
00:04:22.350 –> 00:04:25.800
Shlomo Sher: Okay, is it crashed or it didn’t.
46
00:04:27.000 –> 00:04:29.310
Shlomo Sher: uh something happened to adversity.
47
00:04:30.750 –> 00:04:38.700
Shlomo Sher: It did crash, but I need to save this yeah and do it again so hold on a second.
48
00:04:38.790 –> 00:04:39.300
No worries.
49
00:04:59.310 –> 00:04:59.700
Shlomo Sher: man.
50
00:05:01.080 –> 00:05:01.770
Shlomo Sher: yeah.
51
00:05:09.240 –> 00:05:14.370
Shlomo Sher: Sorry, one more I need to do the effects all that stuff before I close it out yep go ahead.
52
00:05:15.840 –> 00:05:17.520
A Ashcraft: No worries okay.
53
00:05:22.050 –> 00:05:24.660
Shlomo Sher: Go we’ll call this Part One
54
00:05:29.880 –> 00:05:32.760
Shlomo Sher: Maybe this could be an excuse not to talk to my class tomorrow.
55
00:05:34.920 –> 00:05:36.420
A Ashcraft: You might just want to get a glass of water.
56
00:05:36.630 –> 00:05:40.290
Shlomo Sher: yeah I just did I have a whole big i’ve been drinking the whole class.
57
00:05:55.830 –> 00:05:58.920
Shlomo Sher: Okay, save that, let me do it again, let me get the.
58
00:05:59.970 –> 00:06:01.350
A Ashcraft: you’re sounding pretty bad now.
59
00:06:01.710 –> 00:06:04.110
Shlomo Sher: yeah my throat really hurts, I mean you know.
60
00:06:05.160 –> 00:06:08.070
Shlomo Sher: I mean i’ve thrown issues let’s begin with.
61
00:06:09.600 –> 00:06:11.010
Shlomo Sher: Testing testing testing.
62
00:06:14.190 –> 00:06:18.180
Shlomo Sher: yeah well we’ll need to we’ll need to finish this up real quick.
63
00:06:18.930 –> 00:06:20.580
A Ashcraft: we’re I think we’re we’re all but done.
64
00:06:25.050 –> 00:06:28.080
Shlomo Sher: Well done, for this to happen, just basically just while we’re about to be done.
65
00:06:31.110 –> 00:06:39.180
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so I think we need to do the the time again yep right so at 30 hold on let.
66
00:06:39.360 –> 00:06:55.980
Shlomo Sher: me open it again 35 3035.
67
00:06:58.320 –> 00:06:58.710
A Ashcraft: alright.
68
00:06:58.770 –> 00:07:02.370
Shlomo Sher: Okay alright so let’s take it back delilah.
69
00:07:02.580 –> 00:07:06.240
A Ashcraft: yeah Layla or laila and the shadows of war.
70
00:07:07.530 –> 00:07:10.830
A Ashcraft: Is a game about the same conflict.
71
00:07:13.110 –> 00:07:24.450
A Ashcraft: and takes place in the Gaza Strip and it’s, in my opinion, a much more effective game it at one a bunch of awards a few years earlier than, then the the other game, the knights of alexa.
72
00:07:26.670 –> 00:07:28.830
A Ashcraft: has come out so it’s a it’s a few years old now.
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A Ashcraft: One one a ton of indie indie indie game awards to beautiful game a 2d side scroller game in which you play a father in Gaza, who is trying to keep his family safe through a night of warfare and.
74
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A Ashcraft: it’s.
75
00:07:47.580 –> 00:07:55.680
A Ashcraft: Always you know it’s not it’s apples and oranges comparing it to nights of alexa except that it takes place in the same the same conflict right.
76
00:07:56.490 –> 00:08:05.340
Shlomo Sher: I think it is you know so right so as you go to a year to year, the father and it’s like it’s 2d squalor really simple very, very dark and all takes place at night.
77
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Shlomo Sher: your wife gets killed and then your daughter gets injured and then she gets killed in an ambulance so you get bombed in a school kids get bombed the ambulance gets bombed and then it tells you it’s all based on real events that happen.
78
00:08:22.800 –> 00:08:24.390
Shlomo Sher: You know in Gaza.
79
00:08:24.690 –> 00:08:34.740
Shlomo Sher: Right um it doesn’t it it, it leaves out certain things that I think are kind of important like, for example, that Hamas would hide rockets and schools and hospitals.
80
00:08:35.400 –> 00:08:36.090
Shlomo Sher: Which is.
81
00:08:36.120 –> 00:08:36.750
You know.
82
00:08:37.770 –> 00:08:54.810
Shlomo Sher: itself deeply deeply problematic, and you know explains some of this, but clearly there’s great tragedy it communicates it really, really well, so you know, in an end, and if it does a lot so notice right if this is just a fantasy if.
83
00:08:54.900 –> 00:09:02.370
Shlomo Sher: Alex a monster just a fantasy then it’s very different than if it really wants you to care about the situation of.
84
00:09:02.850 –> 00:09:12.060
Shlomo Sher: You know, Palestinians certainly it’s not as effective as that kind of game which makes me wonder if, maybe the whole idea of having a game that is a shooter.
85
00:09:13.020 –> 00:09:26.190
Shlomo Sher: about this conflict, maybe you can’t do it well, I don’t know I again I leave this I leave this feeling like there’s gotta be a way to do it silly enough well enough or you know.
86
00:09:26.850 –> 00:09:30.570
Shlomo Sher: right that is going to be also morally responsible.
87
00:09:30.870 –> 00:09:31.950
Shlomo Sher: Certainly it’s hard.
88
00:09:32.280 –> 00:09:43.650
A Ashcraft: As a piece of artwork laila and the shadow war is a much better piece of artwork it’s even, in some ways, better at vilifying the Israelis.
89
00:09:43.860 –> 00:09:46.350
Shlomo Sher: Oh way better right I.
90
00:09:46.590 –> 00:09:56.040
A Ashcraft: Think, so what happens in the in the conflict, even though in in nights of alexa if you read the backstory for the character.
91
00:09:56.580 –> 00:10:11.340
A Ashcraft: he’s he was a medical student who was not militarized and then he got you know started in prison and became an became militarized and his family was killed while he was imprisoned by Israeli and you know it’s like it’s like all everything.
92
00:10:12.390 –> 00:10:14.730
A Ashcraft: is designed to make him.
93
00:10:16.710 –> 00:10:20.790
A Ashcraft: The way that he is the way make to make the main character, the way that he is.
94
00:10:21.270 –> 00:10:22.500
Shlomo Sher: Though you don’t see any of that.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so see any which which loses to me all the.
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Shlomo Sher: kind of power that you could have from yet you know from a storytelling perspective.
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A Ashcraft: Before you actually see this happen, you see the horrible things happening.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: you’re living through them you’re trying to you’re literally trying to avoid them and you cannot.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, let me just say that uh let me plug in peacemaker one more.
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Shlomo Sher: You know i’m i’m for games that will make you think about complex.
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Shlomo Sher: You know I still think there’s room for fantasy, but I really wish that in places where things are very serious, you know I think those are a place for serious games that can you know can be thoughtful and get people to think about the issues.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s right, and I think that.
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A Ashcraft: In in if you’re going to if you’re going to take on a complicated subject, then you have to make a more complicated game, you have.
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A Ashcraft: To tell them or you have to it has to be more complicated than those are the bad guys shoot them, but at the same time, I totally understand why somebody would want to have a game that’s just a fun shooter that portrays themselves and and the people that look like them as good guys.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah all right Andy good podcast bands.
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Shlomo Sher: Good podcast play nice everybody.
