[Release Date: August 24, 2021] This is the second episode in our “Andy and Shlomo design a game” series. In this game, we want to tackle the issue of crime and punishment. That’s right, we want to make a game dealing with the complex ethical questions around how we treat criminals.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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Shlomo Sher: hey everybody today’s episode is going to be the second in our series of games that Andy and I design and check out the first one, which was about Facebook and responsible is about social media I think it’s slow morn and the design a game.
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Shlomo Sher: This is one of our favorite things to do and i’m super excited to do this with Andy today, this is not an introduction, this is just this is a rambling.
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Shlomo Sher: An introduction is going to have to be much tighter Okay, so let me instead just start us off with these very, very simple introduction Andy and.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, everybody we’re back for another ending slow mo design a game.
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Shlomo Sher: This one is going to be about criminal justice and punishment and I cannot wait to get started, and he is our game designer a lead on right your your leader today.
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A Ashcraft: Alright, so as we, as we did in the in the previous episode, where we designed a different game, I want to, I want to start with this touchstone document, what are the things that we know that we want to include.
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A Ashcraft: So we know that we want to make a game about crime and punishment, so we know what our theme is we know what what the game is about.
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A Ashcraft: But let’s talk about some other things that we may not know.
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A Ashcraft: what’s What about this game is meant to be fun what kind of fun, are we trying to create.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah it’s interesting and I know you really like this concept of fun.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m struggling with this a little bit right because a part of me a part of me is already.
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Shlomo Sher: divided about how to do this right.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m part of me wants to do like an activist game right like like essentially to.
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Shlomo Sher: To say look I, I have some feeling some thoughts about crime and justice, especially in America, but really anywhere.
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Shlomo Sher: A part of me wants to make a game where you know we get players to think about crime and justice.
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Shlomo Sher: And a part of me wants to say well look there’s all these really terrible things going on, and we should make an activist game, you know about you know, crime and justice that will get people to go out there and do something about it.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so actually let’s let’s let’s use that lens instead instead of thinking about what what’s fun let’s use the lens of what do we want to say.
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Shlomo Sher: What we want to say yeah it’s uh i’m open to kind of you know my usual go to is.
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Shlomo Sher: I want people to think for themselves.
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mm hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: So what do you think about that, so does the thing.
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A Ashcraft: i’ve been thinking for you go go think for yourself it’s not very, very active in terms of like activism, so if we wanted to make a more activism game, you certainly need to have a a call to action that is a little bit more active than hey why don’t you just think about these things.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right right so yeah so the and if we make this an activist game yeah, we need a call to action right, so you can imagine a let’s say you know the.
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Shlomo Sher: The call to action would be that.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s say we might focus on private prisons okay in America right, and you know how those are terrible idea or maybe the.
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Shlomo Sher: The minimum wage, that a lot of uh you know prison workers prison guards get paid in some parts of the country and the concerns about that, and you know, a petition right that’s a good sign.
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A Ashcraft: You know what am I thought, like.
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A Ashcraft: Here in California our inmates frequently get jobs get inmate jobs as firefighters and right now we’re in the middle of fire season, so this is a big deal right now right but they’re paid like $1 and a half an hour.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so no right notice right the whole point could be let’s focus on prison Labor you know it’s interesting because one of these things about my to me the ultimate you know there’s two big activists games that that that are like a one is a.
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Shlomo Sher: Jesus.
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Shlomo Sher: One was about our four and I can’t remember what it was called but in there, one of the things I really like this, they have this activists tools built into the game that let you like right like an email or send an email from you from the game.
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Shlomo Sher: directly to your local representative.
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Shlomo Sher: or the President Bush so cool and it and and part of the idea which I don’t think they ever actually managed to completely get off the ground.
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Shlomo Sher: But part of the idea was to allow you to meet other interested people through the game that would allow them to create they wanted to do like divestment campaigns.
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Shlomo Sher: On college campuses and stuff like that.
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A Ashcraft: Which.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t know how effective that would have been but the idea of connecting with other people on this issue right and the game being a place for people to do that, that sounded really, really amazing.
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A Ashcraft: yeah like to create a hub for a network of people who also feel the same way about.
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A Ashcraft: Right going on.
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Shlomo Sher: And then have them take that, and you know have real world meetings right outside of the game right the game was just going to kind of connect them into groupings, that they can use for that.
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Shlomo Sher: I thought that was amazing but I kind of it, I feel like maybe this issue is bigger right because it’s one thing to say.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay here’s a specific issue, there are people starving that desperately need help in ruts a Dar for right or you know right now in Hong Kong right.
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Shlomo Sher: china’s cracking down right on right on you know, on Hong Kong Hong Kong democracy.
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Shlomo Sher: You know democracy activists and we need your support, right now, and that’s what revolution in our times the the game another activist game did.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you can essentially by the game, and you can purchase stuff through the game, and you can literally help right the activist, both by spreading information, but I think primarily by making purchases in the game right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, but those are very, very specific.
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A Ashcraft: Yes.
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Shlomo Sher: So maybe this isn’t the right topic for an activist game.
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A Ashcraft: Well, or the the crime and punishment or the just didn’t want to make it broader we want to talk about like what should we do with criminals.
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Shlomo Sher: um well, I was thinking crime and punishment, I mean there’s so much to crime and punishment so.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s so big so.
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A Ashcraft: Maybe we should talk about we could do.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah so maybe we should throw out some some potential topics here I realize i’m kind of taking your template and i’m throwing it away so maybe maybe maybe.
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe I should I mean follow your template here.
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A Ashcraft: Sometimes it’s important to like go alright this this theme that we have is too broad and let’s let’s narrow it down let’s talk about like just this element of it or just this element of it.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, or maybe even you know what do we mean by crime and punishment, just so we’re clear.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah when when we think crime and punishment what, what do you have in mind.
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A Ashcraft: So what I have in mind is is.
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A Ashcraft: A society has a set of rules, and when you transgress these rules, society has to decide what to do about that.
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A Ashcraft: In some cases, it may be nothing in some cases, it might be, you know chuck the person out, I mean that was common in earlier times you just get ejected from the country.
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Right yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah well, I mean yeah it’s interesting we don’t do that much anymore.
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A Ashcraft: No one because there’s not any place to eject people to there used to be wild lands.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, there has to be.
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A Ashcraft: These in between places where you weren’t anywhere, you were just out in the wilderness, now we don’t really have that anymore there everything’s everything’s a country.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, we can expel you from our Community, you know put you on an island somewhere or you know, Canada is not going to take you know the people that America, you know, like.
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A Ashcraft: writing on depending on on what the crime is, do we even want another country to take them.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, and you know this, of course, is when you think about you know, so we can think about what’s the purpose of punishment.
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A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: kind of in the first place right.
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Shlomo Sher: So uh maybe who should we punish.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, what should we punish them for.
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A Ashcraft: Right what crimes are important enough to punish people for.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, because you know we do lots of things where we.
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Shlomo Sher: don’t really punish people, or we do, of course, we also do a lot of placements that are really, really light.
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Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Right like you know you’re fine, for you know jaywalking or you know speeding right or you know.
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Shlomo Sher: Right illegal parking.
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A Ashcraft: There are things that we do to try to make you think about doing things that would be dangerous.
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A Ashcraft: Where you do them were like let’s put a fine on here to make you think oh wait if I do this thing I might get fined because, clearly, if I do this thing I could get killed, is not enough.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so you know we have kind of these deterrence.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right so, and this is part of the idea right, why do we punish people we punish people to deter them from doing it again to the other people from doing in the first place.
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A Ashcraft: Right okay so let’s imagine the game, then one other thing that one of the one of the sort of thought.
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A Ashcraft: constructs that I come back to you, frequently is.
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A Ashcraft: A tribe of Neolithic people.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: And, and we have a game where we have a tribe of Neolithic people we know exactly who they all are we’ve given you know every one of them has a name every one of them has a personality.
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A Ashcraft: right that was running an Ai and we are.
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A Ashcraft: We are guiding them over generations.
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A Ashcraft: So maybe you know every 10 minutes is a is a year, or something.
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Shlomo Sher: or every right right right so.
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A Ashcraft: So we have this sort of sense of time is happening there they’re reproducing they’re you know they’re falling in love they’re making babies they’re growing old they’re dying and so, and one of the interesting thoughts that i’ve always had is to make a game around.
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A Ashcraft: Like setting laws for these people.
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A Ashcraft: and setting up rules and try to create sort of a sustainable society within this little grouping.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, you know this is part of the difficulties I think about subjects like this right, because you know I want this to relate to the real world right.
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Shlomo Sher: But if we’re making this about the real world we’re making assumptions yeah right we’re making assumptions about what works what doesn’t right so, for example, does the death penalty deter crime.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, should we should we execute our worst offenders right well people disagree about that you know, as it happens, the majority of American criminologist.
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Shlomo Sher: believe that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime but there’s no hard and fast evidence about this stuff right so notice, you know.
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Shlomo Sher: And that’s just one very, very specific kind of penalty so part of the problem that seems to me.
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Shlomo Sher: To be maybe endemic to any kind of game like this right what we’re trying to hit on a real world issue is what assumptions are we going to make and how do we make those assumptions in a way that people will buy into you know.
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Shlomo Sher: I think we’ve talked about the peacemaker before.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and in peacemaker right The goal is to make peace between Israel and the Palestinians, but all this makes assumptions about what kind of things really.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, would make peace, and can you really trust the Israelis or the Palestinians to do what they say they do, and of course people in the real world that don’t agree with those assumptions will just consider a throwaway game.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s right that just wishes particular narrative.
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A Ashcraft: So, within with this with this thought idea, we have to one of the assumptions, we have to make is that the Ai for each of these individual people is this complex and irrational as human beings actually are.
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A Ashcraft: So we don’t know.
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A Ashcraft: We don’t we don’t necessarily know what each of these little Ai is going to do they have they have their own thoughts about things they they they they react to things in ways that we don’t necessarily predict.
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Shlomo Sher: I did like people here like little people, so if they’re like so if they’re like little people and they form social relationships and societies.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah um Can we just take the knowledge and understanding we have about people in society and apply it to our game.
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A Ashcraft: Well sure, but what do we know about people in society.
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Shlomo Sher: Exactly we make a lot of assumptions about.
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A Ashcraft: Right so let’s assume.
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A Ashcraft: That they are that they are perfect little replicas.
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A Ashcraft: of human beings.
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Shlomo Sher: right but but but here’s here’s what I mean by by the assumptions thing right.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, we disagree about what people are like right we disagree about how people respond to punishment right think think even as something as simple as raising a child.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right parents have different parenting philosophies right, and then we have these experts today that they’re experts on you know early childhood development that will try to.
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Shlomo Sher: give people essentially an idea of what sort of punishment should you do with the kids and one is that appropriate and.
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Shlomo Sher: But of course people lots of people disagree with exactly what we’re saying you know, and I feel the same thing applies obviously to to to prisons or let’s say to our forms of punishment, so, if so, if you look at a place like Norway.
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Shlomo Sher: Norway, the maximum punishment for know is 21 years okay right there’s no solitary confinement this as far as I understand it, as well there’s no death penalty.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, you can get multiple life sentences in the US right i’m just a you know, and of course you can get the death penalty right these two countries seem to be making very, very different assumptions.
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Shlomo Sher: about what works and doesn’t work, and I feel like we need to be able to either to have some sort of way of of having confidence in our assumptions.
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Shlomo Sher: or leaving things open to the assumptions, maybe that the player will make about this.
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Shlomo Sher: Is that I don’t know I, and I don’t know if you could do that.
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A Ashcraft: I mean in in in this in this hypothetical game that we’re going to design, of course, we can do that.
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A Ashcraft: We don’t have to program it.
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A Ashcraft: Right somebody else’s problem right.
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A Ashcraft: So.
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A Ashcraft: But that also that also gives us license to to say you know we it’s it’s probably good that we don’t know how how these little people are going to react.
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Shlomo Sher: um.
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A Ashcraft: let’s say, for example, here’s a here’s a way that we could do this right and we could do this today.
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A Ashcraft: We could have every time that a question arises that these these little these little these little characters need to need to weigh in on we the game sends out a random an email to a random person and ask them a question.
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Shlomo Sher: Are we talking about random real people around the.
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A Ashcraft: Around the real people yeah the real people, the.
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A Ashcraft: game, the game sends out an email like a survey question one question survey, you know do does this does this tribe, want to have a death penalty.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay.
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A Ashcraft: And, and then the game sends out an email to some random person.
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A Ashcraft: hmm and.
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A Ashcraft: They want to have a death penalty and then that’s the way that that character in the game feels.
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Shlomo Sher: A interesting very cool I like that idea in at least in principle, where do you get these these random people are they are they players are they literally random emails and you’re spamming them.
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A Ashcraft: I bet I bet we could buy a random I bet we could buy a big list of emails that we could spam.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, or or again notice, I mean potentially these could be other players yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, I mean there’s.
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A Ashcraft: Right, it could be people who have agreed to to to to take on, you know, maybe there’s a.
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A Ashcraft: Maybe there’s some sort of organization like like 23 and me were you Where were they they consistently send out surveys to people and people agree to take the surveys for 23 me, maybe there’s sort of a you know ethics and me.
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A Ashcraft: organization, where we just say all right, if you want to answer questions about it, we want to answer it ethical questions where the company that.
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Shlomo Sher: Does that Sir, maybe, maybe this podcast at some point will be like come to our registrar people are interested in ethics and video games and you can be the kind of random person that could affect people’s games.
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Shlomo Sher: right by making choices.
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A Ashcraft: Right, in fact, this would be a really great sort of this could be a really great business for somebody to like you know if you join this, you have a little village.
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A Ashcraft: And every time you answer ethical questions your little villagers are behave as if they are you, and so you get to see this little microcosm of people who have a society that behaves like you do.
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A Ashcraft: And what does that society end up looking like what does that society end up being people would, I think, would pay good money for this.
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Shlomo Sher: um yeah I mean it’s it’s it’s interesting, but you know I I subscribe to a list of of you know California folders that gets surveyed and I really enjoy it right, and you know I would love it if they sent me ethical questions.
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A Ashcraft: You know both enjoy the survey things i’m i’m a member of several.
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A Ashcraft: You are houses and send surveys out.
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A Ashcraft: And yeah 23 and me, I might I can in the 98th percentile of people who have responded to questions and and 23 and me i’m on board.
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Shlomo Sher: All right, and imagine we also talk to the public, so podcast who would know who would have thought his personality traits you have something in common.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, but but look in this game right, it seems to me that this is kind of hard to do if we’re going to talk about crime and punishment.
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Shlomo Sher: In part, because you know going thinking long term right so thinking long term there are certain things that you can really project long term, I think you know your technology food production.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, military, you know there’s things that can kind of grow over time.
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Shlomo Sher: But I think the situation with crime and punishment.
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Shlomo Sher: Is I don’t know if this kind of format for game is going to.
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Shlomo Sher: is going to be my choice, the way that the kind of genre of game that I would choose.
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Shlomo Sher: I would think you might.
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Shlomo Sher: need something more more of a narrative maybe.
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A Ashcraft: real world.
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Shlomo Sher: And so more real world like.
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A Ashcraft: Some fictional Neolithic group.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah.
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A Ashcraft: It could be you know, a specific person who has a specific problem.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m sure yeah.
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A Ashcraft: I mean specific group of people.
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Shlomo Sher: i’m sure, or you can be you right so again right it depends here’s here’s what I kind of would like the player to be at least thinking about right.
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Shlomo Sher: I want them to think about a you know what’s the point of punishing people right, so I definitely want to think about that right what’s what’s the point of punishing people.
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Shlomo Sher: I want them to think about.
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Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting part of me wants them to think about.
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Shlomo Sher: A kind of you know my philosophy, so I like people thinking about big questions i’m sure, but you know I kind of would like them to think about.
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Shlomo Sher: How much of the things that we do are the product of our of our environment.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know you can think about that in terms of the kind of society we have.
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Shlomo Sher: In terms of the kind of neighborhoods communities, we blow up in in terms of our genetics and families, and especially abusive families.
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Shlomo Sher: Right uh you know for born to foster parents right you’re not born to foster parents right, but if you grew up in a foster home right.
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Shlomo Sher: and partly also the kind of environments, I guess that you know environmental factors like prisons right, how did they how did those shape us so you know those are let’s say kind of two things that I would want to think about.
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Shlomo Sher: and
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Shlomo Sher: Maybe also maybe there’s a bunch of other issues like How does things like racism fit into our criminal justice system yeah right that seems to be kind of important you know, an important issue.
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Shlomo Sher: Oh yeah and the money.
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Shlomo Sher: That we spend on punishing versus preventing you know, preventing crime.
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Shlomo Sher: versus creating the conditions that happen so that crime never happens right.
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Shlomo Sher: right that does our big kind of questions that I think it’s hard to find a lot of.
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Shlomo Sher: very concrete kind of answers for but.
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A Ashcraft: It is but it’s a really good it’s a which makes it very, very good too.
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A Ashcraft: To use the sort of artificial life server simulations to work out to work out issues, the workout the the the details of.
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Shlomo Sher: Well, I was thinking, actually, that it would be you know, I was thinking be easier to do them in a real world scenario.
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Shlomo Sher: Right you’ve got a real world, you just don’t necessarily know what the consequences will be right right so.
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Shlomo Sher: Right let’s say let’s say we happen to have a game and you’re like a warden in a prison and Louisiana just to pick a random Okay, we it’s a narrative we gave you we made you the warden I don’t know why the warden the wardens obviously always is only dealing.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, only dealing with the.
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Shlomo Sher: With prisoners that have been sent to them, but you would think a warden would need to have a kind of philosophy right.
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Shlomo Sher: honestly.
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A Ashcraft: I don’t actually think this is, this is a good way to because the wardens hands are pretty well tied there’s there’s laws that they’re bound to and there’s you know there and there they you know and and the job itself is is very specific right.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so I don’t know that they have much opportunity to really think about like should this person be in jail at all, maybe a judge is a better place to to start.
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Shlomo Sher: Ah, well it’s interesting right it’s it because one way to do it, of course, is to a judge sounds fun, you want to a game about a judge.
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A Ashcraft: yeah let’s do a judge game.
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Shlomo Sher: let’s do a judge game Okay, you know what’s interesting about you know about judges is well obviously judges make judgments right right and the thing about making a judgment is you know, a judgment is you’re making an evaluative call right.
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Shlomo Sher: And it’s a it’s something definite.
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Shlomo Sher: Right it’s not something that you’re pondering it’s not an if it’s like you’re going to make a judgment call and there’s going to be consequences to that call and you don’t know what those consequences are going to be.
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Shlomo Sher: right for sure, at least right when when you when you make that call.
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A Ashcraft: Right, you know you know what it’s going to be for the specific case that you’re making the call on.
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A Ashcraft: Right don’t necessarily know how that’s going to.
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A Ashcraft: How will how that’s going to affect the next case which will have a different set of circumstances a different set of context.
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Shlomo Sher: Right so let’s uh we’re going to allow juries or ignore juries.
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A Ashcraft: let’s just say it’s a judge and also for the sake of for the sake of simplicity let’s say let’s say there’s no constitution.
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Shlomo Sher: screw that, why do we need a constitution right, we can okay lots of countries get away lots of countries don’t have constitutions.
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A Ashcraft: yeah the judge can just decide, based on their on their on their moral and ethical you know.
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A Ashcraft: leanings are thinking on what is the right thing to do.
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Shlomo Sher: um okay yeah that sounds good right, I mean if you’ve got a and it’s interesting right because.
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Shlomo Sher: Judges and making.
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Shlomo Sher: It making decisions are essentially supposed to.
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Shlomo Sher: apply the law right as they understand it and we don’t want them to just apply the law we want them to think about what the law should be right.
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A Ashcraft: So there, which is in the US isn’t is specifically not their job.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, though.
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A Ashcraft: there’s a lot of talk about whether or not they’re.
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A Ashcraft: they’re overstepping their bounds.
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Shlomo Sher: Right yeah that’s a complicated thing about being.
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A Ashcraft: Listen let’s not.
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Shlomo Sher: Do it.
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Shlomo Sher: Every every interpretation creates and yeah let’s let’s just ignore this right okay so okay so we’re going to be judges, we want them to to to think about this, this may or not be an activist game, we don’t know yet right we don’t need to decide at this point right um.
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A Ashcraft: We should we should know whether we should know what we want to say.
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A Ashcraft: Okay, so.
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A Ashcraft: But.
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Shlomo Sher: So my vote goes against.
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A Ashcraft: My vote says let’s just.
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A Ashcraft: say this is a, this is a game that’s not necessarily doesn’t have a specific point of view it’s not specifically going to say you should go out and do the thing.
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Right.
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A Ashcraft: it’s a game where it’s it’s meant to it’s just meant to like open up these questions and make you play through these these issues so that you’re thinking about them.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay um so uh I, I want to go back to some of your questions here so who is this game meant to be played by what do you think well.
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A Ashcraft: that’s an excellent question this feels like something that you would want to maybe attached to high school civics.
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Shlomo Sher: Oh that’d be great i’d love oh man I would so love it if we had some sort of game like this and a high school civics class yeah you know I don’t know how many high school civics class there still are today and I don’t know if they call them civics.
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Shlomo Sher: But something like that.
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A Ashcraft: In California was literally, the only class I had to pass to get out of high school.
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Shlomo Sher: Really yeah.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, I will say this if we don’t teach high school civics and that a class called government.
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Shlomo Sher: But.
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A Ashcraft: I don’t know I think ours was called government as well, but it was basically high school civics.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right right and I don’t think most I think only like a tiny majority a tiny minority of the people, my school took it.
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Shlomo Sher: Yes, but it’s one of those things that in God, especially today’s in these divided times.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, we could certainly use a class like that, but you can put that into lots of other classes, you know where you know.
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Shlomo Sher: History humanities right lots of.
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Shlomo Sher: I like this idea of focusing on the high school population yeah okay let’s so let’s do that okay.
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A Ashcraft: yeah it’s meant for like it’s meant to be attached to a high school government slash civics class there, the average age of the of our players is going to be 15 years old.
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Shlomo Sher: 15 okay.
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A Ashcraft: So tonight let’s say it’s like it was and.
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A Ashcraft: In my school everybody has to take this class.
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Shlomo Sher: everybody in this class it’s not.
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A Ashcraft: You know, boys versus girls, or you know anything like that it’s literally everyone who’s 15.
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Shlomo Sher: that’s wishful thinking, but Okay, yes right.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, it makes me actually think if we’re gonna if we’re going to do a.
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Shlomo Sher: Again, based on an assuming that this is going to be educational and originally I definitely wasn’t thinking remotely of making it an educational game, but I kind of like this as an educational game.
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A Ashcraft: yeah I think itself very well.
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Shlomo Sher: um you know it reminds me of there was a game about the underground railroad and I I I don’t remember if we’ve talked about in this in this podcast but.
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Shlomo Sher: It sounded like a really interesting game about the underground railroad and it was made by the people who made the Oregon trail um but.
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Shlomo Sher: uh they essentially assumed that when students played this game in high school, they would play this game as a part of a lesson of a larger lesson.
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Shlomo Sher: Right about slavery and that didn’t happen essentially schools just stuck up in front of computers, which this is old I think there’s what apple to seize or something yeah and it did not go well, they they essentially encountered this stuff with no context parents got really upset so.
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A Ashcraft: I didn’t I didn’t think that this game actually came out.
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Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah it was out.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah this.
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A Ashcraft: This was again I thought that it got nixed by publishers, because they were they were too worried about oh no That was the remake of it there’s somebody somebody wanted to redo it and that that’s more recently gotten next.
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A Ashcraft: is well the story was yeah.
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A Ashcraft: I don’t know, one of our listeners well i’m sure will will will correct me if i’m wrong about that.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay, so.
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Shlomo Sher: My so my point there is we can’t count on context right, it might be that they just some someone may teach might may sit sit this kid in front of the computer and say all right play this game about that crime and punishment right.
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A Ashcraft: Right.
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Shlomo Sher: Okay um now.
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Shlomo Sher: we’re playing as the judge you know I had this I had this idea um I didn’t I didn’t I wouldn’t I didn’t do what I would say is preparing for this, but last night in bed, I really I was thinking about this for a little bit and I I can’t wait which one kind of a you know, a possibility.
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Shlomo Sher: Though I don’t know if it really applies anymore.
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Shlomo Sher: I was thinking about the interview process, I was thinking let’s say for replaces the Ward and knows what the interview process for Ward and B and let’s say this is a judge before you get hired What would the interview process for a judge.
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Shlomo Sher: be great and.
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A Ashcraft: When this is a judge who has who has unlimited powers.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right so.
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A Ashcraft: They can just decide things, however, they want.
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Shlomo Sher: Right, so I was so I was thinking of things like.
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Shlomo Sher: A so ultimate for in the very beginning of ultima four you get asked a bunch of moral dilemmas.
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Shlomo Sher: Right um and you didn’t become that character, I was wondering if we could, if we could do something.
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Shlomo Sher: A little bit like that, where you’re asked a bunch of kind of questions in the beginning, as part of your job interview.
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A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
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Shlomo Sher: This you know, one of my students made a game once about where you work for a buyer for pharmaceutical companies and.
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Shlomo Sher: You had to answer you for your job interview, you had to essentially answer a bunch of moral dilemmas, they would determine which which company, you went to which culture you kind of you kind of fit in.
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A Ashcraft: Right that’s interesting, who I have an idea how about this your job interview at the beginning of the game you’re asked a series of questions moral dilemmas.
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A Ashcraft: sort of theoretically, how would you behave, how would you how would you handle you know this issue, what do you feel about this issue and that becomes now i’m going to go back on what I just said, you know five minutes ago that becomes the Constitution.
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A Ashcraft: That is that bombs, the law that you now have to uphold.
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Shlomo Sher: With.
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A Ashcraft: Cases where there were the specifics, are very different, and the context is a very different.
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Shlomo Sher: wow okay part of me wants to say let’s do that but let’s take it to an extreme.
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Shlomo Sher: Who yeah so that you know the what, whatever your decisions are.
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Shlomo Sher: Their problem monetized in that the there, the law is still true draconian one way or another, but I don’t know if I like this, as much as.
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Shlomo Sher: Your original idea of kind of just giving the judge all the power okay right to cut it because he could you could change, you could change your mind or.
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A Ashcraft: You know right right right okay so so let me, let me go to another one of my questions here.
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Okay.
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A Ashcraft: i’m gonna i’m gonna skip down a little bit, how do players win and how do they lose.
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Shlomo Sher: um yeah I think that’s a good good good question okay here’s a here’s what i’m assuming if we’re going to be a judge.
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Shlomo Sher: you’re going to be seeing cases.
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Shlomo Sher: right but but let’s do more than that right, besides seeing cases you’re having meetings with lawyers and we need your conscience, so how about.
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Shlomo Sher: You know, you also do.
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Shlomo Sher: You have dinner with your spouse.
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Shlomo Sher: Where you.
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Shlomo Sher: uh I don’t know if judges are or are not allowed to talk, but you know, in the hypothetical cases I know that my lawyer friends talk about their cases all the time.
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Shlomo Sher: And you know they just they just don’t name names right, you know, but they talk about their their cases all the time, but this idea of you know, having someone that you trust that you kind of feel responsible to.
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Shlomo Sher: I kind of like this, this kind of because if you know if you’re in a room and you’re discussing let’s say the case with.
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Shlomo Sher: The the district attorney let’s say or the prosecutor and the Defense attorney.
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Shlomo Sher: You can get right different perspectives on different things.
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Shlomo Sher: Right and that’s great, but I really liked the idea also of giving you someone that at the end of the day, you know they are.
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Shlomo Sher: They they’re just thinking if you’re being a good person, you know, at the end of the day, you’re kind of this is the person you’re morally accountable to.
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A Ashcraft: Okay right.
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Shlomo Sher: And, at least for.
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A Ashcraft: me it’s my assumptions, but there’s an assumption there right, I mean how who is who’s designing this person’s morality your spouse morality.
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Shlomo Sher: Right right.
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A Ashcraft: And so what is that, based on because that’s going to end up telling that’s going to end up being.
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A Ashcraft: The the solution right.
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Shlomo Sher: Well it’s, so I would say that you know your spouse is not you can make it whether they’re open minded but let’s say you know.
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Shlomo Sher: They clearly expect you to do the right thing.
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Shlomo Sher: Not the right thing, without you know sorry they expect you to try to do the right thing Okay, and they expect you to be able to explain yourself for for for why you think it’s the right thing and they expect you to.
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Shlomo Sher: Be fair.
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Shlomo Sher: show compassion, but also, you know be just what you know notice these these are just kind of like General things that someone can support without having specific without saying, but I know better than you what the right answer is.
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A Ashcraft: But a game, but alright, so I agree, but a game still needs to know what is justin what isn’t just.
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Shlomo Sher: I don’t know.
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A Ashcraft: In order for her to have her, I should say, and your spouse.
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A Ashcraft: To have.
369
00:39:57.840 –> 00:40:03.870
A Ashcraft: An idea of whether or not you are being you know because, like you said if you’re accountable to right and she’s going to judge you.
370
00:40:05.190 –> 00:40:07.050
Shlomo Sher: Right, so I think it’s.
371
00:40:07.110 –> 00:40:12.090
Shlomo Sher: Not again, what does it mean to be just or to to try to be just.
372
00:40:12.180 –> 00:40:14.700
Shlomo Sher: Like essentially that you’re trying I.
373
00:40:14.730 –> 00:40:15.180
Shlomo Sher: Think is.
374
00:40:16.200 –> 00:40:18.600
A Ashcraft: What if she simply cares about you being consistent.
375
00:40:20.280 –> 00:40:23.760
Shlomo Sher: or consistent or both of those things, why not it’s.
376
00:40:23.850 –> 00:40:27.660
A Ashcraft: You know it’s assumed that she’s that she’s married she’s fallen in love with you and she’s married.
377
00:40:27.660 –> 00:40:29.130
A Ashcraft: You because you’re simpatico.
378
00:40:29.640 –> 00:40:35.220
A Ashcraft: Okay, so we don’t necessarily need to know exactly what she feels because what she feels is what you feel.
379
00:40:36.690 –> 00:40:37.710
A Ashcraft: About most things.
380
00:40:38.190 –> 00:40:38.730
A Ashcraft: Okay.
381
00:40:38.760 –> 00:40:39.300
Shlomo Sher: might be.
382
00:40:39.420 –> 00:40:50.670
A Ashcraft: She might like to do sort of the devil’s advocate thing, so you can talk to her and she’ll say, but what about the people who think about this, think about it this way, what about the people who think about it this way, what about she can bring up these other points of view.
383
00:40:51.000 –> 00:40:52.440
Shlomo Sher: Right right so.
384
00:40:52.530 –> 00:40:59.970
A Ashcraft: As a function to do that and then she judges you on whether or not you’re consistent to your.
385
00:41:01.350 –> 00:41:02.910
A Ashcraft: to your previous.
386
00:41:03.300 –> 00:41:04.290
Shlomo Sher: Previous assistance.
387
00:41:04.350 –> 00:41:05.280
A Ashcraft: previous decisions.
388
00:41:05.370 –> 00:41:13.710
Shlomo Sher: I, like you know to me if you have two lawyers right, you can get perspectives right, you can you can get you know those those kinds of things.
389
00:41:15.300 –> 00:41:25.980
Shlomo Sher: But I like the consistency part that there’s someone holding you accountable and I still really like this, I don’t want to let go of this idea that.
390
00:41:27.030 –> 00:41:42.720
Shlomo Sher: You know that we can make this person make you feel accountable mm hmm you know and again we don’t have to go into I think a lot of details about that, but just this feeling like at the end of the day, you know your partner wants you to be a good person.
391
00:41:43.020 –> 00:41:43.470
A Ashcraft: Right.
392
00:41:43.590 –> 00:41:46.020
Shlomo Sher: All right, and you know, and you kind of gotta.
393
00:41:47.370 –> 00:41:49.020
Shlomo Sher: Tell your partner what what.
394
00:41:50.040 –> 00:41:53.640
Shlomo Sher: What you did in a way that you can live with.
395
00:41:53.850 –> 00:41:55.020
Shlomo Sher: And you know that they could live with.
396
00:41:55.590 –> 00:41:56.910
A Ashcraft: So here’s another idea.
397
00:41:58.590 –> 00:42:08.430
A Ashcraft: So there’s there’s basically this the spouse who Georgia judges who brings up these different con you know different different points of view and con in conversation with you.
398
00:42:08.880 –> 00:42:18.990
A Ashcraft: And ultimately, judges, you on your consistency, because because she feels the same way that you do and and so she’s only going to she’s only going to you know.
399
00:42:20.160 –> 00:42:36.060
A Ashcraft: To not give you a win if you’re doing something that is inconsistent with with what you, and she believe but let’s say that there’s another aspect of this game, too, and that is, you know, maybe Maybe you can be voted out of office.
400
00:42:37.800 –> 00:42:45.510
A Ashcraft: Maybe and and so there’s another scale of just your popularity and your whether your judgments are popular judgments or not.
401
00:42:46.470 –> 00:43:03.420
A Ashcraft: And, and we can going back to a much earlier idea, and this idea in this episode, we can crowdsource of the American culture about these things, so we can ask 1000 people or you know how do you feel about this, you know, give them the same the same problem.
402
00:43:04.290 –> 00:43:05.280
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah.
403
00:43:06.030 –> 00:43:08.460
A Ashcraft: And if you’re different than the way they feel about it.
404
00:43:09.390 –> 00:43:11.730
Shlomo Sher: It affects your popularity yeah you’re right.
405
00:43:11.790 –> 00:43:14.220
A Ashcraft: hilarity so there’s another way you could potentially lose.
406
00:43:15.420 –> 00:43:20.040
Shlomo Sher: right which is it because yeah we started talking about the wind condition right right so.
407
00:43:20.460 –> 00:43:24.300
A Ashcraft: It says the wind can lose the lose condition is more is more interesting than the wind condition.
408
00:43:24.870 –> 00:43:25.860
Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah.
409
00:43:25.890 –> 00:43:34.530
Shlomo Sher: In fact, right yeah in this case the loose condition your popularity falls behind a lower than some sort of threshold.
410
00:43:34.980 –> 00:43:38.280
Shlomo Sher: Right and you and you lose your job you’re not represent the people’s interest.
411
00:43:38.400 –> 00:43:42.690
A Ashcraft: Right right and either you’re either voted out or you know pitchforks and torches.
412
00:43:43.050 –> 00:43:44.670
A Ashcraft: Sure let’s.
413
00:43:44.730 –> 00:43:45.750
Shlomo Sher: let’s do pitchforks and.
414
00:43:45.750 –> 00:43:49.650
A Ashcraft: torches and they’re just fun yes right since you have unlimited power, you also.
415
00:43:49.920 –> 00:43:52.650
A Ashcraft: The only thing that that well.
416
00:43:52.710 –> 00:43:54.630
Shlomo Sher: You understand is is you know.
417
00:43:54.810 –> 00:43:57.510
Shlomo Sher: Is the power of the people through pitchforks and torches.
418
00:43:57.570 –> 00:43:58.110
A Ashcraft: that’s right.
419
00:43:58.650 –> 00:44:06.690
Shlomo Sher: um you know the other kind of so I for something like this, I really liked the idea of.
420
00:44:07.950 –> 00:44:10.620
Shlomo Sher: Connecting your judgments with other people’s judgments.
421
00:44:11.640 –> 00:44:25.560
Shlomo Sher: So that would be also other people other players are playing the game that are that are I would want to see what kind of decisions other people made i’ll you know I would definitely want to have those kind of comparisons, whether they’re kind of like end of Chapter comparisons.
422
00:44:25.590 –> 00:44:29.850
A Ashcraft: yeah I think that’s great I would love to have the comparison of other players.
423
00:44:30.240 –> 00:44:33.330
A Ashcraft: Right so comparison to people who are not players.
424
00:44:33.840 –> 00:44:45.780
Shlomo Sher: Yes, yeah which is, which is also kind of interesting because right people who are not players typically will get i’m assuming may not think about it as much.
425
00:44:45.870 –> 00:44:50.160
Shlomo Sher: And it might kind of be interesting to see what our snap judgments might be.
426
00:44:50.370 –> 00:44:56.190
A Ashcraft: or reverses, we know that this is it happens in a sophomore year high school class.
427
00:44:56.610 –> 00:44:57.690
Shlomo Sher: Okay, we can.
428
00:44:57.720 –> 00:45:02.190
A Ashcraft: We can show you what the previous years, have decided.
429
00:45:03.180 –> 00:45:05.400
Shlomo Sher: or different schools across the country.
430
00:45:05.430 –> 00:45:07.320
A Ashcraft: or different schools across the country right.
431
00:45:07.500 –> 00:45:10.830
Shlomo Sher: that’s actually very that would actually be very interesting data.
432
00:45:11.160 –> 00:45:12.960
A Ashcraft: It would be very interesting data wouldn’t it.
433
00:45:13.260 –> 00:45:27.060
Shlomo Sher: Right, because you think about a you know you would think there would be, for example, a different answers done in like let’s say a high school in a small town in Mississippi versus in Seattle.
434
00:45:28.170 –> 00:45:38.970
Shlomo Sher: right that they would get very, very different kinds of you know kinds of answers and what they would differ on would be very interesting and the reasoning would would be very, very interesting.
435
00:45:39.450 –> 00:45:40.560
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s it’s.
436
00:45:41.760 –> 00:45:46.140
Shlomo Sher: yeah i’m thinking of that there’s something called the ethics ball that high schools participate in.
437
00:45:46.380 –> 00:45:52.110
Shlomo Sher: Oh yeah which is, which is a regional, national competition of ethics and like this would be perfect for.
438
00:45:52.110 –> 00:45:53.580
Shlomo Sher: You because again like this.
439
00:45:54.900 –> 00:46:11.490
Shlomo Sher: You get essentially a kind of a dilemmas or or or problems topics and essentially the the team needs to come up with solutions or answers for for them and a team of judges so i’ve judged those.
440
00:46:11.490 –> 00:46:12.180
A Ashcraft: Long form.
441
00:46:13.980 –> 00:46:16.290
A Ashcraft: Definitely, they have to write sort of their argument out.
442
00:46:16.320 –> 00:46:17.850
A Ashcraft: For know i’ve decided this.
443
00:46:17.940 –> 00:46:23.790
Shlomo Sher: Typically, in a bowl it’s it’s live and they you know it’s kind of like a debate.
444
00:46:24.060 –> 00:46:25.020
Shlomo Sher: But instead of.
445
00:46:25.080 –> 00:46:30.240
Shlomo Sher: Trying to beat the other person you’re more like trying to give a better answer better response than the other team.
446
00:46:30.960 –> 00:46:34.890
Shlomo Sher: And you have essentially experts, so you know i’ve been I think.
447
00:46:34.980 –> 00:46:36.180
Shlomo Sher: a judge at three of these.
448
00:46:38.370 –> 00:46:47.220
Shlomo Sher: Were your experts kind of way the kind of value of you know of your reasoning process, and you know how good, your answer was so.
449
00:46:47.580 –> 00:46:51.780
Shlomo Sher: You know it’s an interesting thing right something like that can turn into or can feed into this.
450
00:46:52.590 –> 00:47:05.190
Shlomo Sher: um but yeah I think there’s a lot for me, you get a lot of ethical reflection coming from other people’s judgments right that that’s why I want this kind of feeling with the with the spouse.
451
00:47:05.670 –> 00:47:22.860
Shlomo Sher: Of the person who is you know in some sense judging you, even if, even if they’re not saying anything right you feel like they’re the person you’re most accountable to and that’s why I like this kind of the let’s say the two lawyers arguing with they’re not just giving you perspectives.
452
00:47:23.100 –> 00:47:25.020
Shlomo Sher: You know they’re also kind of giving you.
453
00:47:25.110 –> 00:47:26.940
Shlomo Sher: feedback on your own judgment.
454
00:47:27.030 –> 00:47:30.780
Shlomo Sher: Right, but you know, the best is people in your position.
455
00:47:31.890 –> 00:47:36.120
Shlomo Sher: Right and getting to see what people you are identical position what their judgments for.
456
00:47:36.390 –> 00:47:37.170
Shlomo Sher: huh yeah.
457
00:47:38.490 –> 00:47:56.610
Shlomo Sher: Maybe even better than that is being able to have conversations you know with those people after the fact, you know, in a game where we could do this in forums right of some kind right in a classroom you could obviously go, you know far, far beyond that right.
458
00:47:56.790 –> 00:47:59.460
A Ashcraft: Right right there can be you know, there can be group discussion.
459
00:48:01.350 –> 00:48:10.800
A Ashcraft: There can be you know, even if the i’m assuming that the game is is serving up random problems to each player, so there, so they can’t actually collude.
460
00:48:12.240 –> 00:48:12.750
Shlomo Sher: um.
461
00:48:13.320 –> 00:48:13.710
A Ashcraft: But.
462
00:48:14.190 –> 00:48:21.660
A Ashcraft: But their rightly be discussion about like well what what interesting problem, did you face today Tommy what interesting problems you face today Jenny.
463
00:48:22.230 –> 00:48:22.800
Right.
464
00:48:24.060 –> 00:48:31.620
A Ashcraft: Then the class can discuss it, even though they’re not all playing the same they’re not all responding to the same case.
465
00:48:31.950 –> 00:48:37.290
Shlomo Sher: Or maybe they all have the same cases but randomized so different orders right.
466
00:48:38.310 –> 00:48:41.940
A Ashcraft: So just suddenly can’t collude you don’t you don’t want a bunch of layers going.
467
00:48:42.120 –> 00:48:43.620
A Ashcraft: let’s all inside this the same way.
468
00:48:43.950 –> 00:48:48.990
Shlomo Sher: Right so yeah so that’s what i’m thinking random i’m thinking about literally the way give tests, you know.
469
00:48:49.770 –> 00:48:59.040
Shlomo Sher: And how I randomized my questions for tests, but then after the after the test we can talk about the same questions together right right so right if.
470
00:48:59.490 –> 00:49:11.340
Shlomo Sher: You let’s say in this game let’s say let’s say you have 10 cases that you need to deal with right, we can all talk about the same cases but we’re going to be different cases at different times so we can’t collude right and.
471
00:49:12.390 –> 00:49:16.500
Shlomo Sher: um should we talked about what the cases themselves might be like.
472
00:49:16.740 –> 00:49:17.310
A Ashcraft: Oh sure.
473
00:49:17.340 –> 00:49:30.060
A Ashcraft: yeah I think we, I think we definitely do, and I also think we need to do so this is going adding a little bit more detail to the idea of that there’s there’s these two different judgments you’ve got your spouse and then you’ve also got this popular opinion.
474
00:49:30.690 –> 00:49:42.090
A Ashcraft: I think regular opinion, the people who get the surveys to give you a popular opinion, they only get the High Level like the the the the newspaper headline version of the case.
475
00:49:42.600 –> 00:49:48.150
A Ashcraft: And having to decide it based on that, whereas you get a lot more detail, you get all of the facts.
476
00:49:49.050 –> 00:49:54.420
Shlomo Sher: Well yeah it’s interesting, but all the fact means right all of the facts is usually too many facts right.
477
00:49:54.600 –> 00:49:54.900
Shlomo Sher: Right.
478
00:49:54.930 –> 00:50:00.900
A Ashcraft: Well, I mean, so you have to figure out and that’s actually really interesting like calling out the the facts that don’t matter.
479
00:50:01.320 –> 00:50:05.070
Shlomo Sher: Right right what What matters, and what what would really doesn’t matter.
480
00:50:05.340 –> 00:50:07.140
Shlomo Sher: I mean it’s also interesting.
481
00:50:07.590 –> 00:50:19.380
Shlomo Sher: So uh I think that one thing that should be is that we’re not going to hear cases I think we should be I don’t think we should be at the guilty not guilty.
482
00:50:20.250 –> 00:50:35.550
Shlomo Sher: Well, sorry, let me huh that’s okay so right a trial has two phases, the first phase is the person guilty or not right, the second phase is a you know the actual sentencing part.
483
00:50:35.820 –> 00:50:36.300
Shlomo Sher: And that’s right.
484
00:50:36.390 –> 00:50:42.210
A Ashcraft: that’s for criminal law so we’re so and we are talking only about criminal law not talking about civil law.
485
00:50:42.630 –> 00:50:46.800
Shlomo Sher: right if we do tort law uh yeah that’s actually a good question.
486
00:50:47.820 –> 00:50:49.980
Shlomo Sher: Sure let’s focus on the criminal law.
487
00:50:50.040 –> 00:50:53.700
A Ashcraft: We started off talking about this is crime and punishment we’re not talking about.
488
00:50:55.200 –> 00:50:57.210
A Ashcraft: I just wanted to read it reem put it aside.
489
00:50:57.960 –> 00:51:11.070
Shlomo Sher: right though yeah yeah sure yeah yeah not not not tort law right yeah okay so right so do we just want to focus on sentencing because sentencing.
490
00:51:11.670 –> 00:51:21.750
Shlomo Sher: You know, and one of the things that I would want instant The thing is, I would really want so let’s talk about sentencing and then let’s maybe go back and see about the other one.
491
00:51:22.140 –> 00:51:22.890
Shlomo Sher: Okay um.
492
00:51:23.220 –> 00:51:25.890
A Ashcraft: So maybe it’s all about sentencing, that would be interesting.
493
00:51:25.950 –> 00:51:29.190
Shlomo Sher: Right, it could be just about sense it because you know I mean.
494
00:51:30.900 –> 00:51:37.770
Shlomo Sher: You can have like a critical thinking game, or something that focuses on what does the evidence actually show, and all this kind of stuff.
495
00:51:38.190 –> 00:51:46.440
Shlomo Sher: But to me the interesting about the thing about the punishment right all has to come from sentencing when you’ve already found out that the crime occurred.
496
00:51:46.950 –> 00:51:48.870
Shlomo Sher: Everything else is did a crime actually occur.
497
00:51:49.170 –> 00:51:55.320
Shlomo Sher: And and right and part of our problem is that we also seem to be deciding what counts as a crime exactly but.
498
00:51:55.890 –> 00:52:00.150
Shlomo Sher: Because we kind of gave are judged leeway I don’t know how exactly that’s gonna work.
499
00:52:00.510 –> 00:52:01.230
Shlomo Sher: Right right so.
500
00:52:01.290 –> 00:52:07.590
A Ashcraft: So yeah I think this is better another judge has already found them guilty and then you get the details.
501
00:52:07.920 –> 00:52:09.150
Shlomo Sher: Right or it could have been you.
502
00:52:09.210 –> 00:52:13.050
Shlomo Sher: it’s your court ruling you well we’re just we’re just not talking about that part.
503
00:52:13.110 –> 00:52:15.810
Shlomo Sher: Okay right um you know and.
504
00:52:17.040 –> 00:52:19.560
Shlomo Sher: You know, we can focus on certain things like.
505
00:52:21.900 –> 00:52:25.290
Shlomo Sher: What are the range of punishments available to.
506
00:52:26.220 –> 00:52:28.500
Shlomo Sher: Right, so you know let’s say you know.
507
00:52:28.860 –> 00:52:45.300
Shlomo Sher: uh you know we’re we’re kind of stuck thinking of punishment and very, very kind of simple, straightforward terms fine or jail and maybe the death penalty right but there’s lots of other right does drug courts right or.
508
00:52:46.050 –> 00:52:52.110
A Ashcraft: We also think like one of the common things that the judges do is send us to driving school.
509
00:52:53.070 –> 00:53:02.190
Shlomo Sher: driving school or or any kind of program right, I had a friend that got sent to anger management classes, they call the clockwork orange classes.
510
00:53:03.750 –> 00:53:13.230
Shlomo Sher: Right, where anger management classes yeah interesting right, you know you know what if you’re you know what if you your cup of domestic violence.
511
00:53:13.590 –> 00:53:28.800
Shlomo Sher: Right uh you know, maybe you need classes classes like that, besides, whatever else will you know will happen, what about community service, what about shaming tactics right so let’s say those people who get caught stealing and the judge.
512
00:53:29.940 –> 00:53:38.040
Shlomo Sher: sensors them to stand outside let’s say walmart with a sign for a week that says, from nine to five That said, I stole from walmart right.
513
00:53:38.070 –> 00:53:41.640
A Ashcraft: Right, I mean we used to do that with stocks right we used to put people in stocks.
514
00:53:42.150 –> 00:53:53.820
Shlomo Sher: Right well right though took away their right there deign to dare to be ashamed and they’re also there uh well they’re also literally can’t move, because then.
515
00:53:54.150 –> 00:53:54.690
Shlomo Sher: yeah right.
516
00:53:55.020 –> 00:53:59.730
A Ashcraft: But that was only because you didn’t want to like assign somebody to stand there with them to make sure they stood there.
517
00:54:00.390 –> 00:54:02.160
A Ashcraft: A yes.
518
00:54:02.220 –> 00:54:10.320
Shlomo Sher: Right okay right right that makes sense, these days, we can be ankle bracelet to make sure that you are really are in front, we can put you on a video monitor, but whatever it is that.
519
00:54:10.950 –> 00:54:12.480
A Ashcraft: Easy easy ways to handle that.
520
00:54:12.840 –> 00:54:21.480
Shlomo Sher: And right and there’s lots of other potential ways of punishing right, so you know I want the judge to have a large range of these yeah.
521
00:54:21.540 –> 00:54:24.180
A Ashcraft: I agree, I think that I think that there should be.
522
00:54:25.350 –> 00:54:27.000
A Ashcraft: I think there should be more than five.
523
00:54:28.200 –> 00:54:43.980
Shlomo Sher: Oh yeah i’d put up the 10 I mean caning why don’t we came people right right they do it, they doing in Singapore right corporal punishment, you know what about you know what about cutting off body parts like cutting off the hands of athletes like they do in Saudi Arabia.
524
00:54:44.100 –> 00:54:44.490
A Ashcraft: mm hmm.
525
00:54:45.030 –> 00:54:46.290
Shlomo Sher: Why are we not.
526
00:54:46.830 –> 00:54:47.670
Shlomo Sher: Considering that.
527
00:54:47.820 –> 00:54:52.440
A Ashcraft: So what about recidivism should we track recidivism.
528
00:54:53.490 –> 00:54:56.490
A Ashcraft: Should there be like depending on the on the.
529
00:54:57.720 –> 00:55:01.830
A Ashcraft: On the punishment should there be a chance that this person is going to do the same thing again.
530
00:55:03.450 –> 00:55:09.390
Shlomo Sher: Okay, so good question okay so first of all, we got all these sentencing options right and we got the.
531
00:55:09.900 –> 00:55:11.670
Shlomo Sher: We have those along with the number.
532
00:55:11.880 –> 00:55:21.870
Shlomo Sher: Right, so if we’re going to say you get hit by a cane right how many times, if you’re going to go to jail for how long if you’re going to pay a fine how much right, so we need we need those factors.
533
00:55:22.530 –> 00:55:32.310
Shlomo Sher: Then we have these kind of okay so that’s kind of basic, then we have kind of the questions of I don’t know mitigating circumstances any circumstances that might kind of.
534
00:55:32.850 –> 00:55:44.460
Shlomo Sher: So let’s say we found out this person already let’s say did time oh oh this person committed previous offenses we know what their crimes are so notice this is someone who is.
535
00:55:44.940 –> 00:55:54.420
Shlomo Sher: it’s different than talking about what the recidivism rate would be or anything but it is someone that we know was already given some sort of punishment.
536
00:55:54.930 –> 00:56:05.430
Shlomo Sher: And maybe we get to think about okay did that work or not work was the problem with they didn’t get enough punishment is that the wrong punishment is it that punishment is not the way to deal with these things.
537
00:56:05.550 –> 00:56:15.840
A Ashcraft: So yeah I think that when when you get the case you get you know the the opposing the two opposing arguments, you know one their lawyers basically.
538
00:56:16.410 –> 00:56:26.340
A Ashcraft: giving you all of the reasons why their their punishment should be high, or should be, what the lawyer things that it ought to be, you know, in the end, you know they’ll they’ll.
539
00:56:26.970 –> 00:56:38.250
A Ashcraft: Practice prosecutors will recommend a punishment and then the Defense will also recommend a punishment and give you all these reasons why it should be that.
540
00:56:39.390 –> 00:56:40.590
Shlomo Sher: yeah that’s interesting.
541
00:56:42.030 –> 00:56:49.980
Shlomo Sher: I I like both of them, giving you reasons for harsh or lesser punishment it’s interesting at part of me.
542
00:56:51.510 –> 00:57:00.480
Shlomo Sher: You know, part of me wants to leave it completely open to you, but, of course, then you don’t get to hear the arguments for the specific form of punishment well.
543
00:57:00.540 –> 00:57:02.310
Shlomo Sher: that’s really nice not.
544
00:57:02.430 –> 00:57:08.730
A Ashcraft: They don’t necessarily have to argue, they may not have a recommended punishment.
545
00:57:08.970 –> 00:57:15.600
A Ashcraft: There just might be a list of of you know reasons why the punishment should be high reasons why the punishment should be low.
546
00:57:16.140 –> 00:57:22.410
Shlomo Sher: Right, but I the way I heard you saying the before is recommending let’s say a specific punishment.
547
00:57:22.590 –> 00:57:24.030
Shlomo Sher: And that might be interesting.
548
00:57:24.150 –> 00:57:32.280
Shlomo Sher: to write as a kind of i’m also wondering if you know how sometimes there’s friends of the Court brief mild.
549
00:57:32.700 –> 00:57:41.640
Shlomo Sher: Now i’m not an expert on this stuff I don’t know exactly how that works, but maybe sometimes there could be additional just besides those two.
550
00:57:42.540 –> 00:57:52.620
Shlomo Sher: Other recommendations to the Court, in fact, I mean you know when someone’s in sentencing, you know people write editorials about potentially what they have this person deserves.
551
00:57:52.770 –> 00:57:53.400
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
552
00:57:53.490 –> 00:58:02.880
A Ashcraft: Those can be you know, basically, maybe there’s a prosecutors recommendation, the The defenders recommendation and then the popular recommendation.
553
00:58:04.200 –> 00:58:06.630
Shlomo Sher: interesting but popular recommendation right.
554
00:58:06.960 –> 00:58:14.880
A Ashcraft: sort of incorporates the all the editorials that get printed and the the friend of the Court briefs that gets sent in.
555
00:58:15.570 –> 00:58:25.590
Shlomo Sher: Right, maybe, or maybe we get potentially three or four different different recommendations, you know it might really also depend on on the case itself right.
556
00:58:26.040 –> 00:58:28.410
Shlomo Sher: And and notice right, and so, in some of them.
557
00:58:28.860 –> 00:58:42.330
Shlomo Sher: let’s say you have this so you have to take these mitigating circumstances right like this person has committed this crime before and received this punishment before you want to know about that one sentencing them right um there’s also things like.
558
00:58:42.960 –> 00:58:46.320
Shlomo Sher: What are the conditions under which this you know.
559
00:58:48.090 –> 00:58:52.980
Shlomo Sher: it’s interesting, so you think about the conditions of you know, this person.
560
00:58:54.360 –> 00:59:03.360
Shlomo Sher: uh let’s say grew up in a family with domestic abuse and then committed the domestic abuse right, you know and domestic abuse is one of those things are generational.
561
00:59:03.780 –> 00:59:13.350
Shlomo Sher: yeah right that people kind of tend to do, are you going to take that into consideration or not right when sentencing right that they grew up in a family like that versus someone that did.
562
00:59:14.190 –> 00:59:14.730
Shlomo Sher: What about.
563
00:59:14.790 –> 00:59:24.090
A Ashcraft: And so I think that should definitely be on the list that’s that’s the defender would say look he’s grew up in a in a in a House that’s where this generational.
564
00:59:25.410 –> 00:59:30.540
A Ashcraft: News happens happened, this is why we’re recommending that he has schooling, instead of prison time.
565
00:59:30.660 –> 00:59:32.010
Shlomo Sher: or right right so.
566
00:59:32.070 –> 00:59:33.990
A Ashcraft: yeah so instead of caning or whatever.
567
00:59:34.230 –> 00:59:41.160
Shlomo Sher: Right, so we want to make sure right that that there’s that there’s that there’s stuff like this, and I think there’s also you know.
568
00:59:42.390 –> 00:59:46.500
Shlomo Sher: here’s here’s a case that I i’ve always thought was kind of interesting I.
569
00:59:48.900 –> 00:59:56.310
Shlomo Sher: I think a lot of times when it comes to punishment, and you know my my father spent time in.
570
00:59:57.780 –> 01:00:08.340
Shlomo Sher: prison in prison, not jail prison yeah when when I was in high school and he did 15 months for a white white collar crime okay uh and.
571
01:00:09.510 –> 01:00:26.850
Shlomo Sher: You know, it always kind of reminds me and i’ve talked to a lot of students, when you know when I do classes on you know the criminal justice system about you know I had a student last semester, whose father was on death row for a crime, she said he didn’t commit.
572
01:00:27.060 –> 01:00:40.860
Shlomo Sher: wow right and right or students who you know whose parents were plenty of students whose parents were in jail and just how much this impacts not just the person in jail, but also their family.
573
01:00:41.580 –> 01:00:43.530
Shlomo Sher: and especially.
574
01:00:44.910 –> 01:00:49.920
Shlomo Sher: Especially in this is even more in black communities, but I think it’s true more generally.
575
01:00:50.940 –> 01:00:59.790
Shlomo Sher: there’s a general does generalization I don’t think that’s the right word, you know where essentially one generation is in jail.
576
01:01:00.240 –> 01:01:10.620
Shlomo Sher: And you’re essentially leaving the next generation to have a lack of guidance right right, and you know it makes it much more likely that the next generations in jail.
577
01:01:11.010 –> 01:01:12.900
Shlomo Sher: and potentially the next one.
578
01:01:13.110 –> 01:01:13.650
Shlomo Sher: So and.
579
01:01:13.680 –> 01:01:17.730
A Ashcraft: Talking about is is the repercussions of your decisions.
580
01:01:18.540 –> 01:01:20.010
Shlomo Sher: Right, the repercussions.
581
01:01:20.040 –> 01:01:25.920
A Ashcraft: Because we don’t do we have is the game big enough because that feels that feels like a big scope.
582
01:01:26.520 –> 01:01:32.910
A Ashcraft: yeah important, I think, but, but it also feels like like i’m not sure how we would feed that back to the player.
583
01:01:32.970 –> 01:01:34.680
Shlomo Sher: I don’t think you need to, I think.
584
01:01:34.800 –> 01:01:44.280
Shlomo Sher: The player just needs to to consider right so look, I mean if you let this person uh let’s see what we’re talking about domestic violence, if you’re just letting this person just go back home.
585
01:01:45.810 –> 01:01:52.020
Shlomo Sher: I mean you got to think about the consequences, you might have more domestic violence right, this could be this could get dangerous right so.
586
01:01:52.320 –> 01:01:59.730
Shlomo Sher: Right you got to think so, as the person sentencing, you have to think about the potential consequences we’re not going to get to the actual concert but.
587
01:02:00.450 –> 01:02:03.000
A Ashcraft: i’m playing a game if there’s no actual consequences.
588
01:02:04.530 –> 01:02:04.950
Shlomo Sher: Right.
589
01:02:05.010 –> 01:02:06.090
A Ashcraft: it’s of no use to me.
590
01:02:06.630 –> 01:02:13.800
Shlomo Sher: Well, no, I mean you still have your your consequences are public opinion and the consequence of you know your.
591
01:02:14.490 –> 01:02:16.980
A Ashcraft: recidivism because I think a recidivist.
592
01:02:18.030 –> 01:02:22.890
A Ashcraft: You know if if if the same criminal comes back to you, having done something again.
593
01:02:23.520 –> 01:02:28.500
A Ashcraft: Right after the net should be a very big problem for you popularity wise.
594
01:02:29.610 –> 01:02:30.120
Shlomo Sher: um.
595
01:02:30.330 –> 01:02:31.320
Shlomo Sher: Because okay.
596
01:02:31.710 –> 01:02:42.000
A Ashcraft: The the the people you work for are like hey you didn’t actually do your job here this person didn’t stop doing what they were doing.
597
01:02:42.780 –> 01:02:49.380
Shlomo Sher: But maybe that’s not fair right, I mean look, I mean in the court of public opinion sure I agree with you.
598
01:02:49.530 –> 01:02:49.800
Shlomo Sher: Right.
599
01:02:49.830 –> 01:02:50.520
A Ashcraft: I mean about yeah.
600
01:02:50.580 –> 01:02:58.260
Shlomo Sher: right but public opinion, the way you can you you’ve had it up to this point was essentially that it’s kind of like the general opinion of what.
601
01:02:59.220 –> 01:03:09.780
Shlomo Sher: You know people the way people answer these these sorts of questions here right, you can make you know, a right, you can make the smart decision and have it be the wrong decision.
602
01:03:10.920 –> 01:03:13.350
Shlomo Sher: Right, and this is true for.
603
01:03:13.830 –> 01:03:19.290
A Ashcraft: You What do you mean what’s what would be what who decides what’s right wrong.
604
01:03:19.440 –> 01:03:27.600
Shlomo Sher: So here’s what I mean by that right, you can essentially make the smart, and this is this doesn’t just apply to criminal justice, it could apply to anything right.
605
01:03:28.260 –> 01:03:39.390
Shlomo Sher: You can make a let’s let’s say okay let’s take the vaccination for coven 19 right, you can say look i’m followed I followed the science and I listened to.
606
01:03:39.780 –> 01:03:46.260
Shlomo Sher: A you know I listened to the CDC and to the great majority of experts in the field, and so I got the vaccine.
607
01:03:46.680 –> 01:04:05.310
Shlomo Sher: And that was the smart decision, but you know it might end up that the vaccine really wasn’t ready, and you know really is, at the end of day going to kill you it’s possible if you if that happens, you made the smart decision, but maybe not the right one sure you see what I mean by that.
608
01:04:05.580 –> 01:04:06.660
A Ashcraft: Sure sure.
609
01:04:06.900 –> 01:04:15.330
Shlomo Sher: And normally what we want is we want people to make the smart decisions, because the smart decisions are usually also the right decisions, but not always right.
610
01:04:15.510 –> 01:04:16.530
A Ashcraft: Right right right sure.
611
01:04:16.740 –> 01:04:19.050
Shlomo Sher: And you can have a judge where.
612
01:04:19.110 –> 01:04:20.430
Shlomo Sher: You essentially made the.
613
01:04:20.430 –> 01:04:33.180
A Ashcraft: Decision, that means that, from the game point of view, it means that we have to decide as game designers what the right decision is before the club before we give it to the player and I don’t think we want to do that.
614
01:04:33.330 –> 01:04:34.740
Shlomo Sher: No, we don’t we don’t want to do.
615
01:04:34.770 –> 01:04:36.540
Shlomo Sher: We don’t want to do that at all we don’t want to do that.
616
01:04:36.630 –> 01:04:39.630
A Ashcraft: So, all we have is a consistent decision.
617
01:04:40.800 –> 01:04:48.330
A Ashcraft: As judged by your wife and a popular decision as judged by you know this other this other judgment.
618
01:04:48.960 –> 01:04:51.210
Shlomo Sher: Right, but the server a.
619
01:04:51.240 –> 01:04:52.230
A Ashcraft: Recent right.
620
01:04:52.710 –> 01:04:57.540
Shlomo Sher: Right right though I mean you know I like the idea by the web, at least one of your cases coming back.
621
01:04:58.800 –> 01:05:14.700
Shlomo Sher: And kind of seeing what you do with that yeah but I don’t think we should treat that case any differently, I think you know, in terms of mechanics I think that it’s a different challenge for a person to think about a case that they themselves kind of decided yeah uh but.
622
01:05:15.210 –> 01:05:16.200
A Ashcraft: It could be that.
623
01:05:16.530 –> 01:05:17.940
A Ashcraft: You know, we don’t necessarily.
624
01:05:18.960 –> 01:05:28.170
A Ashcraft: If if you’re a case comes before us that has a guy that has been you know, has been convicted of this crime before.
625
01:05:28.560 –> 01:05:28.830
Shlomo Sher: Right.
626
01:05:29.130 –> 01:05:34.200
A Ashcraft: It doesn’t necessarily mean that we convicted him before, but we can see what the other judge.
627
01:05:35.970 –> 01:05:37.200
Shlomo Sher: Well, because there.
628
01:05:37.440 –> 01:05:44.820
Shlomo Sher: We can see what the other judges chose but there’s also something pretty special about I think someone that you made the decision about yeah.
629
01:05:45.180 –> 01:05:45.750
Shlomo Sher: Exactly oh.
630
01:05:45.990 –> 01:05:53.850
A Ashcraft: I would love to I would love to see that, and you have once in a while somebody comes comes back into your into your frame of reference.
631
01:05:54.240 –> 01:06:10.920
A Ashcraft: Either as another as another case or maybe comes back as long as one of the lawyers, maybe they come back as maybe they just write you a letter they say hey you did me a good turn I got my life squared away, I am now you know happily married with with three children and whatever.
632
01:06:11.280 –> 01:06:15.630
Shlomo Sher: yeah and interesting this idea of getting letters right, you can get like.
633
01:06:16.110 –> 01:06:17.100
A Ashcraft: You know I just do.
634
01:06:17.670 –> 01:06:20.760
Shlomo Sher: They do so you can get it from victims or fun.
635
01:06:21.810 –> 01:06:22.680
Shlomo Sher: or from.
636
01:06:23.850 –> 01:06:30.120
Shlomo Sher: or from the criminals themselves potentially but yeah that’s that’s that’s interesting or family members or.
637
01:06:30.150 –> 01:06:39.630
A Ashcraft: Be sort of you know randomly generated, to a certain degree, just to give you another point of like personal personal juicy touch.
638
01:06:39.930 –> 01:06:41.190
A Ashcraft: And the fact that you’re real people.
639
01:06:41.190 –> 01:06:41.850
A Ashcraft: That you’re you’re.
640
01:06:41.970 –> 01:06:50.580
Shlomo Sher: Right yeah that you’re impacting like real people Oh, by the way, so the example I was thinking about earlier for like the kind of cases is.
641
01:06:51.090 –> 01:07:06.300
Shlomo Sher: And this is kind of has to do with do with consistency right so let’s say to people robbed a store gunpoint right uh and we’ll keep everything else, the same except so except to say that.
642
01:07:07.350 –> 01:07:09.390
Shlomo Sher: One of them has a young child at home.
643
01:07:10.560 –> 01:07:12.900
Shlomo Sher: And and let’s say they’re a single parent.
644
01:07:13.560 –> 01:07:26.310
Shlomo Sher: And the other one does not right right um you know, are you going to treat those two cases different differently right that child now is going to if you send this person to jail for a long time that child will grow up.
645
01:07:27.330 –> 01:07:36.300
Shlomo Sher: Probably in the Foster system, possibly with another relative if you know we can make this any way we want, but notice it’s a really kind of interesting.
646
01:07:36.630 –> 01:07:53.130
Shlomo Sher: And maybe this is something that maybe we haven’t talked about that, I would like to kind of as part of wrapping up the game right I i’d like the the players to kind of think about what at the end of the day, they think.
647
01:07:55.470 –> 01:08:00.330
Shlomo Sher: They think their philosophy on criminal justice would be right, so, for example.
648
01:08:01.410 –> 01:08:07.890
Shlomo Sher: Do they think, for example, that the goal of punishment should be to.
649
01:08:09.660 –> 01:08:11.040
Shlomo Sher: give people what they deserve.
650
01:08:12.090 –> 01:08:16.500
Shlomo Sher: Right or should the goal of punishment be to let’s say.
651
01:08:17.520 –> 01:08:27.330
Shlomo Sher: create a better society right now and notice, by the way, those two things are easily put in conflict right So if you take the example I just gave you right.
652
01:08:27.990 –> 01:08:35.370
Shlomo Sher: The person with the kid right uh you might say, they deserve the same punishment, as the person without the kid.
653
01:08:35.940 –> 01:08:43.680
Shlomo Sher: But if you’re trying to make a better society, you should give them a little lighter punishment, because you should think about the consequences to that kid.
654
01:08:44.190 –> 01:08:52.260
Shlomo Sher: Right and how they’re going to be they’re going to be different so there’s a bunch of cases that you can do the mind either show which direction you’re going to.
655
01:08:52.560 –> 01:08:55.290
Shlomo Sher: hmm right and maybe that could be calculated.
656
01:08:56.520 –> 01:09:02.070
Shlomo Sher: What your practice philosophy let’s say was yeah there’s there’s also things like.
657
01:09:03.660 –> 01:09:09.210
Shlomo Sher: And that would love to kind of bring this in in some way D idea of did decarceration movement.
658
01:09:10.590 –> 01:09:18.120
Shlomo Sher: So this will be people like Angela Davis that essentially said that we have this problem where we just turn around and gel everybody.
659
01:09:18.480 –> 01:09:31.680
Shlomo Sher: yeah you know, and you know, the United States has way more people in jail than every other you know Western country you know something like 10 times more than the UK or five or seven times more it’s.
660
01:09:31.770 –> 01:09:37.020
A Ashcraft: it’s ridiculous, we have more people in in in jail than than a lot of countries have people.
661
01:09:37.770 –> 01:09:40.320
Shlomo Sher: Yes, but of course we have a lot of people to.
662
01:09:40.470 –> 01:09:41.280
Shlomo Sher: write but yes.
663
01:09:41.310 –> 01:09:52.380
Shlomo Sher: Yes, we have usually about 2.1 so i’m like that million people in jail prison, and then we have ever done, we have all those people probation and and you know, then of course we also have juvenile you know.
664
01:09:53.490 –> 01:09:56.130
Shlomo Sher: it’d be nice to have some juvenile stuff in there yeah.
665
01:09:56.190 –> 01:09:57.030
Shlomo Sher: As well right.
666
01:09:57.450 –> 01:09:58.710
Shlomo Sher: um but.
667
01:09:59.760 –> 01:10:04.290
Shlomo Sher: You know the idea, there is essentially to try to.
668
01:10:05.310 –> 01:10:12.570
Shlomo Sher: Do investments in communities and kind of realize how much how much jail specifically harms communities.
669
01:10:13.260 –> 01:10:29.550
Shlomo Sher: Right, and of course he’s focused on on the black community, but this idea that you’re kind of breaking up a Community and you’re not allow a Community to be to become healthy and if you had healthier communities that had that had more services better education, you would.
670
01:10:30.900 –> 01:10:38.220
Shlomo Sher: More unity right more more safety in the first place right, you would get less crime in the first place, and then you would need less prisons.
671
01:10:38.520 –> 01:10:47.670
Shlomo Sher: Right right and you would essentially get a virtuous cycle there, so you know i’d love some way for that those ideas to kind of also make it in there.
672
01:10:47.940 –> 01:10:48.750
yeah.
673
01:10:50.130 –> 01:10:52.380
A Ashcraft: I feel like I feel like it’s.
674
01:10:53.460 –> 01:10:54.060
A Ashcraft: When we.
675
01:10:56.070 –> 01:11:10.650
A Ashcraft: By by placing it in the US, so, for if we say that this is all happening in the US, we can’t talk about this without talking about the black community and and what police were originally designed for and what they.
676
01:11:11.760 –> 01:11:20.730
A Ashcraft: And what’s prisons what’s happening in the prisons right now with with regards to to the the just a sheer volume of number two black people.
677
01:11:21.870 –> 01:11:22.650
A Ashcraft: incarcerated.
678
01:11:22.890 –> 01:11:31.350
Shlomo Sher: Right so, so this is this is another possible thing right that can go in there right as as your sentencing right being aware, you know that.
679
01:11:31.710 –> 01:11:37.620
A Ashcraft: Like we can’t I don’t it’s it’s such an important part of of the reality of that.
680
01:11:37.830 –> 01:11:38.610
Shlomo Sher: right that I.
681
01:11:38.670 –> 01:11:45.660
A Ashcraft: kind of if we’re if we just want to talk about a more general thing I think I think it it pulls focus.
682
01:11:46.350 –> 01:11:47.670
Shlomo Sher: away from the general things.
683
01:11:47.670 –> 01:11:55.020
A Ashcraft: And it should right, I mean we shouldn’t be talking about those things, we absolutely should be, but if we’re not making an activist game and we decided, we were not.
684
01:11:55.680 –> 01:11:56.100
Shlomo Sher: Right.
685
01:11:56.430 –> 01:11:58.560
Shlomo Sher: Then just really general principles.
686
01:11:58.590 –> 01:12:04.830
A Ashcraft: We need to talk about general principles with this, the weight of this huge thing that we have to acknowledge.
687
01:12:06.870 –> 01:12:13.260
Shlomo Sher: yeah though I don’t think you need to get rid of the conservation ID decarceration idea completely.
688
01:12:13.800 –> 01:12:25.080
Shlomo Sher: I think some like that can still go in there, but but you’re right, because then you’re dealing with a very kind of specific problem that seems to have much more like solutions that are available, instead of.
689
01:12:25.560 –> 01:12:28.350
Shlomo Sher: You know principles that we need to consider that’s right.
690
01:12:28.680 –> 01:12:32.670
Shlomo Sher: Right right okay i’m with you i’m with you on that yeah.
691
01:12:32.700 –> 01:12:36.690
A Ashcraft: And all of that can factor in also into this popularity issue.
692
01:12:38.190 –> 01:12:51.780
A Ashcraft: So, because we’re because we’re asking 1000 people in a survey, how you know how the how to how would they resolve this case or whether or not this the way that this judge resolve the case is a good thing or a bad thing.
693
01:12:52.800 –> 01:13:03.450
A Ashcraft: We can build those things into that where where you know this thousand people are going to be 1000 Americans, we that we ask, and you know and the.
694
01:13:04.710 –> 01:13:09.360
A Ashcraft: decarceration can be part of that be part of the popularity system.
695
01:13:11.310 –> 01:13:13.890
A Ashcraft: So you know, in a world where this is a popular opinion.
696
01:13:15.990 –> 01:13:28.080
A Ashcraft: Then that’s going to be, you know all of those things are going to make that that judge a more popular judge and then in a world where that’s not very popular idea that will make that judgment unpopular judge.
697
01:13:28.770 –> 01:13:40.590
Shlomo Sher: Okay, all right, you know, though I definitely want to, I think I like this idea of not being an American game okay yeah I think I think because why why we split the two two.
698
01:13:40.770 –> 01:13:41.340
Shlomo Sher: Because when.
699
01:13:42.090 –> 01:13:46.320
A Ashcraft: We cook in the law we’re already breaking the rules about how judges actually work in America.
700
01:13:46.710 –> 01:13:47.100
A Ashcraft: Sir.
701
01:13:47.520 –> 01:13:48.150
Shlomo Sher: Right right.
702
01:13:48.390 –> 01:13:51.150
A Ashcraft: we’re telling them that they can do they have carte blanche.
703
01:13:51.300 –> 01:13:51.990
A Ashcraft: Here right, you know.
704
01:13:53.010 –> 01:13:55.140
A Ashcraft: They don’t have a constitution to worry about.
705
01:13:56.220 –> 01:13:58.650
Shlomo Sher: No jury actually decides.
706
01:13:58.650 –> 01:14:00.240
A Ashcraft: Not it’s, not us.
707
01:14:00.510 –> 01:14:01.170
Shlomo Sher: Right right right.
708
01:14:01.440 –> 01:14:05.460
A Ashcraft: it’s some other Westernized but.
709
01:14:06.570 –> 01:14:09.210
A Ashcraft: But you know racially mixed world.
710
01:14:10.650 –> 01:14:11.250
Shlomo Sher: sure.
711
01:14:12.300 –> 01:14:24.150
Shlomo Sher: Though again yeah it’s interesting if we’re bringing if we’re bringing things like race and sex into it at all and yeah that’s because racing well, but then you have so much localized context.
712
01:14:25.530 –> 01:14:26.610
Shlomo Sher: You know, which is.
713
01:14:27.690 –> 01:14:40.590
Shlomo Sher: it’s it, you know the the picture without bringing race and sex in into it is incomplete right right, but the picture if you do bring race and sex into it is very.
714
01:14:42.030 –> 01:14:42.750
Shlomo Sher: Particular.
715
01:14:44.790 –> 01:14:46.560
Shlomo Sher: And localized.
716
01:14:47.850 –> 01:15:01.830
Shlomo Sher: So I think, for you know again for an activist game, I think, and I think that was a kind of good way to call for an activist game, I think I would definitely do it yeah but but maybe for the game we’ve kind of created at this point I would I would keep it out.
717
01:15:02.790 –> 01:15:10.350
A Ashcraft: Well, but each of these people is a specific person right, and so we want people, we want the player to understand them, to be specific, people.
718
01:15:11.010 –> 01:15:11.820
Shlomo Sher: I say so.
719
01:15:11.850 –> 01:15:18.810
A Ashcraft: Right, so that means that they have to have a you know they have to have a racial and gender identity, I think.
720
01:15:20.040 –> 01:15:30.630
Shlomo Sher: Okay yeah I mean that’s that’s fine it’s just that we’re if whatever thought process, there is to be had about that we would leave that to to the player oh yeah.
721
01:15:30.840 –> 01:15:34.410
A Ashcraft: yeah we’ll leave it leave it to the player and leave it to the judging public.
722
01:15:34.920 –> 01:15:35.580
Shlomo Sher: Right right right.
723
01:15:36.150 –> 01:15:51.330
A Ashcraft: And just let that let that sit out there and let people and let that change over time because here’s The other thing about this game, and I really like this game and i’m looking at their time we should probably wrap up here in a minute so I, so I think I think we’ve got a design.
724
01:15:51.390 –> 01:15:52.080
Shlomo Sher: yeah yeah.
725
01:15:52.260 –> 01:15:53.730
A Ashcraft: Oh, we have a rough design it’s that.
726
01:15:53.940 –> 01:15:56.100
Shlomo Sher: This is totally doable game, by the way.
727
01:15:56.280 –> 01:15:58.590
A Ashcraft: it’s perfectly doable yeah absolutely doable.
728
01:16:00.060 –> 01:16:18.810
A Ashcraft: it’s a game in which we, the player acts as a judge a sentencing judge, specifically in which they have a free range of possibilities for the kinds of sentences that they that they can enact on on these different cases that every they’re given a certain series of cases.
729
01:16:19.860 –> 01:16:26.340
A Ashcraft: You know, maybe there might be 1000 different cases the game is designed for.
730
01:16:27.060 –> 01:16:35.250
A Ashcraft: kids age 15 as they go through a civics class or a government class in high school so it’s meant to be played by by kids as part of a.
731
01:16:35.970 –> 01:16:49.680
A Ashcraft: school, but of course we can’t control the context of that so they may or may not get any any extra education about about civics from the classroom We just have to assume that what they have in front of them in the cloud and the computer is what they have.
732
01:16:51.630 –> 01:17:06.060
A Ashcraft: As they, as they make judgments on these cases and say sentence these criminals to various things, and they have everything from you know sentence to very light sentence, all the way down to you know, a death penalty or you know caning or you know.
733
01:17:07.830 –> 01:17:09.810
A Ashcraft: Who knows, we could have we could have a.
734
01:17:10.380 –> 01:17:11.610
Shlomo Sher: Chemical castration.
735
01:17:11.850 –> 01:17:13.890
A Ashcraft: Chemical castration that us everything.
736
01:17:14.190 –> 01:17:15.870
Shlomo Sher: That still is, a thing that.
737
01:17:15.930 –> 01:17:22.350
A Ashcraft: Oh yeah I guess it’s probably as in some places, you know amputation it’s still a thing in certain places.
738
01:17:23.460 –> 01:17:25.650
A Ashcraft: So they have all of these options.
739
01:17:27.120 –> 01:17:38.490
A Ashcraft: Some of them are going to be consistent with their philosophy and which is basically just consistent with their previous the everything that they previously done.
740
01:17:39.480 –> 01:17:54.150
A Ashcraft: and other things are going to be popular or unpopular so there’s two ways of judging them, and one way to lose the game which is pitchforks and riots pitchforks and torches you become too unpopular and the crowd removes you from office.
741
01:17:56.430 –> 01:18:02.640
A Ashcraft: Is there a room is there a a spouse way to lose the game is there a way for your.
742
01:18:03.390 –> 01:18:05.490
Shlomo Sher: yeah your spouse’s disgusted by you.
743
01:18:06.660 –> 01:18:07.680
Shlomo Sher: And divorces you.
744
01:18:08.100 –> 01:18:09.150
A Ashcraft: Yes, okay.
745
01:18:09.630 –> 01:18:11.130
Shlomo Sher: yeah they’re just not married.
746
01:18:11.310 –> 01:18:13.260
A Ashcraft: The exactly you’ve changed.
747
01:18:14.040 –> 01:18:23.610
Shlomo Sher: Well, you know, or you know you were put to the test yeah you know, and you failed you show yourself, not to be a person of good moral fiber and.
748
01:18:23.700 –> 01:18:26.070
A Ashcraft: and honestly this sounds like a game that I would absolutely play.
749
01:18:26.430 –> 01:18:26.610
Shlomo Sher: Nice.
750
01:18:27.090 –> 01:18:28.140
A Ashcraft: so nice work.
751
01:18:28.290 –> 01:18:29.220
A Ashcraft: Nice work Shlomo.
752
01:18:29.370 –> 01:18:32.640
Shlomo Sher: All right, Nice nice work Andy right good podcast GP.
753
01:18:32.880 –> 01:18:33.480
GP.
754
01:18:36.210 –> 01:18:37.080
Shlomo Sher: play nice everybody.
