{"id":906,"date":"2022-06-09T19:46:57","date_gmt":"2022-06-09T19:46:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/ethicsandvideogames.com\/?p=906"},"modified":"2022-10-21T16:06:05","modified_gmt":"2022-10-21T16:06:05","slug":"episode-45-ai-ethics-in-video-games-with-gillian-smith","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/ethicsandvideogames.com\/?p=906","title":{"rendered":"Episode 45 &#8211; AI Ethics in Video Games (with Gillian Smith)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>[Release Date: June 21, 2022]&nbsp;&nbsp;It\u2019s hard to imagine games without AI, but having AI in games also raises a host of ethical questions involving their use by players and game companies.&nbsp; We explore the possible use of AI for cheating and manipulation, the importance of transparency, and responsibilities of AI\u2019s programmers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/0ezVdN67MFG4xkQ8D8Pb5K?utm_source=generator&amp;theme=0\" width=\"100%\" height=\"232\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"\" allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\"><\/iframe>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center\">SHOW TRANSCRIPT<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>hello everybody we&#8217;re here today with dr jillian smith who directs the interactive media and the game development program at worcester<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>polytechnic institute where she&#8217;s an associate professor of computer science dr smith&#8217;s research interests are in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>computational creativity game design computer science education and the intersection of traditional crafts and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>computation her interdisciplinary work merges technical research and ai and hci<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh with creative practices and textiles and games with with a view towards addressing social issues and broadening<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>participation and perspectives on computing she earned her phd in computer science from uc santa cruz where she<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>studied in the center for games and playable media uh gillian welcome to the show<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>thank you i miss andy this is another show our second episode without andy andy&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>usually my the cheerleader at the end of welcomes our guest to the show once again andy is helping with his mother<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>but he&#8217;ll be back with us on our next episode um all right jillian we are here to talk uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ai so um there was a whole lot when we thought about uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>what this ai ethics uh episode should be it was a little all over the place because there are so many directions we<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>can go to with ai and in fact this may just end up being our first episode and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and an ai ethics one of the ways that this actually came out and me and andy kind of came at it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>from different directions but uh my uh my brother-in-law is a poker player he&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>a professional gambler and he was talking about how uh ais uh are being used to to cheat uh in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>online poker and how it&#8217;s like a really really big deal in online poker so i kind of wanted to start with a cheating<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>idea if you have any idea about this how are ais being used now by players to cheat<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>against other players or um in any kind of online games oh that&#8217;s a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it&#8217;s it&#8217;s tricky right and some of it comes down to what&#8217;s the definition of cheating right and where does<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like where does tool assist end and cheating begin um in terms of like what a level playing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>field is so i i will say i&#8217;m not super up to date on on like the latest online<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>games and exactly what&#8217;s happening in the news around ai and cheating but for sure there&#8217;s there&#8217;s ai players in in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>multiplayer games i&#8217;m absolutely certain that some people are doing tool assist play or trying to do tool assist play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um so yeah it&#8217;s it&#8217;s there so let&#8217;s break it down into two things<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right ai players as essentially i&#8217;m playing someone that i think might<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>be a a person but it really actually is an ai and it&#8217;s controlled by another<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>player is that the idea uh so it&#8217;s controlled by so so definitely<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>online games will have ai controlled players<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that may not immediately be obvious to the player that they are playing against an ai it presents to the player as<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>though they&#8217;re just playing another character in the game right so notice right um some of that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>obviously is just uh you know the game is designed to make you you know to simulate playing other<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>players so you can enjoy a multiplayer experience uh at what point so at what point can<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>this be let&#8217;s say morally problematic yeah i guess to to answer that i would need to know like why<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>why would people want or not want to be playing against ai what is it doing to their overall play experience in terms<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of like their stature in the game right so um i know that some games will use ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>players for um you know you want to be able to pick up and play right away and that aren&#8217;t players who are available to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>play against so here&#8217;s something eyes to play against right right but i don&#8217;t know for sure whether that&#8217;s going into<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>or or how that&#8217;s being treated in in sort of game rankings right i i would assume that it&#8217;s not having an enormous<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>effect on sort of like player ranking and in the game right if you&#8217;re if you&#8217;re playing mostly against ais but i i don&#8217;t<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>know it&#8217;s it&#8217;s not very transparent right so which i guess is part of the ethical issue right like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>does the player have the right to know right you know as there are some games where<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you know i really want to play multiplayer and i&#8217;m tired of playing with the with the ais i think i&#8217;m<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>thinking of battle polytopia which i play on my phone constantly but it just seems impossible to ever play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>with a whole set of players because i end up waiting forever yep i wouldn&#8217;t mind a mixture of player and ai but uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>they don&#8217;t do that but if they did i would i really would want to know who the ai is so why would you want to know<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>who they are because i played the ai all the time you know and if i&#8217;m going to play the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>players i want to feel like you know i know that i&#8217;m actually playing the players because i already have like a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>single player option where i play a bunch of ais right uh that&#8217;s this is a turn-based<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>strategy game right so you know ai&#8217;s are are really easy but i was thinking actually of other situations so the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>example uh my uh my brother-in-law uh uh essentially told me uh was um that in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>poker if let&#8217;s say i&#8217;m playing poker uh if some of those people around the tables are sharing the deck<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh if i had confederates among those people we could essentially pass information to each other right and if<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>those people are ais right then they&#8217;re by confederates then i can get information we can share information<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>about let&#8217;s say uh what cards we have and that gives us an advantage over other players<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh in in the game right i&#8217;d imagine there&#8217;s other uh i&#8217;d imagine there&#8217;s other games uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>where this is the case where essentially if uh you&#8217;re supposed to get a bunch of random<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>players but really some of them are ai controlled by a player oh i see right so that&#8217;s a different thing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>than if they&#8217;re ai controlled from the company right which i asked first which is right i understand the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>confusion has another set of things um i would say i don&#8217;t totally know if that&#8217;s happening or to what extent it&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>happening um i&#8217;m sure companies have a lot of rules against it um i&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s happening in poker<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>i&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s happening in in non-competitive esports there&#8217;s a lot of systems that are set up to make sure<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that that can&#8217;t happen in like competitive play esports um right right like the team has to all<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>be in the same place it has to be known who&#8217;s playing what right like there&#8217;s there&#8217;s league rules in place to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>prevent that from happening but the sort of unmoderated i don&#8217;t i&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s happening somewhere right yeah it&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>interesting that what kind of uh things game companies really can do to stuff like uh to stop stuff like that from<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>happening so okay so yeah being in person is an obvious one yeah um yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>how do you how do you check if uh how would a company check if there are<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ais being used by players to gain advantage they go beyond let&#8217;s say the aimbot right so right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>be the tool assistant thing that you were talking about yeah that would be tool assist right so and and that&#8217;s that that sort of dividing line of like when<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>does it stop being a tool right you know what skill do you want to be measuring right is is part of being able to play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and being able to play competitively having like your own really nicely written set of tools to be able to play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um right which which is is different um i mean there&#8217;s some things you can look<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>look at for for detecting ai play right like hyper repetitive behavior spamming<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>spamming yeah so so thing things happening in the game that are happening faster than a human would<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>typically be able to do it right so um you know an ai can take actions<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>relatively like faster than a human can right so right so can you like try to detect that that&#8217;s what&#8217;s happening and it&#8217;s it&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>similar in some ways to trying to detect bots on on twitter and social media right like you&#8217;re looking for<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>non-human-like behavior right right uh i think uh i&#8217;m thinking about elon musk<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>talking about the butts on twitter and how there&#8217;s too many posts that came out way too quickly and couldn&#8217;t have been<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>done by humans because they were posted they must have been algorithmic because of the speed that they were<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>posted in which is interesting because it seems like a kind of easy fix if you want to make your ai seem more human<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>just give it a like yeah in in one of my classes at wpi i<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>actually teach uh ai for games and one of the assignments that the students have to do is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>make a like a touring test mario so write an ai control of a mario that when someone<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>watches it play people will think is human um and then we run a little competition<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of like who has the most human-like mario ai controller uh that they&#8217;ve written oh my god<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and i&#8217;m just thinking you&#8217;re helping people you know that that entire uh you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>know prove you&#8217;re human i think you&#8217;re you&#8217;re helping people it sounds like you&#8217;re helping people kind of beat that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>in in some way in some way or i&#8217;m teaching them about human behavior<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>which is a lot of what ai people do right um but yeah some of the students in that class they figure out very<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>quickly that one of the best ways for them to make their bot seem human is to insert mistakes<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>to slow it down is to put in hesitancy right and a thing that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>sort of takes away from the it looking like mario is competent right right because<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>people will assume that incompetence is a human trait well i mean in my case it is and in my<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>case it is as well yeah so okay so let&#8217;s let&#8217;s say the ais are<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>not trying to uh appear like people right um uh and let&#8217;s say they&#8217;re uh easily<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>accessible they&#8217;re smarter too what are some ways that you see uh uh players potentially using ai uh to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>cheat uh either now or in the future and so so certainly any kind of tool-assisted<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>play um speed running is actually an interesting place to look for this right so<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um where where tools is to play of like you know there&#8217;ll be there&#8217;ll be some runs<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that that you&#8217;re allowed to to have tool assistance on that have to be just human play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um wait that you are allowed to have tools you are allowed to have tool assistant so if you look at um oh my god<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>there&#8217;s a speed running festival that runs every year um game&#8217;s done quick i think it&#8217;s called it&#8217;s like a marathon<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of of speed runners and okay and people will there&#8217;s tracks for it where you&#8217;re<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>allowed to have ai assistance in your speed run or you&#8217;re allowed to have a tool assist in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>your speed run to like put in uh do the do the key presses for playing the game faster than a human would ever<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>be able to that sounds like a potential spectrum so i&#8217;m speed running this game um on one uh on one end of the spectrum<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>i&#8217;m just doing it all alone on the other end of the spectrum it&#8217;s completely and ai is doing this for me yeah uh right so<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>what&#8217;s what&#8217;s in the middle here what kind of tools i i i&#8217;m even having trouble imagining the kind of tools<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that&#8217;s why i&#8217;m asking oh so it might be like you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>putting in the series of commands to be played and then the tool<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you know spamming them fast enough to be able to actually get through the game is one example right so you tell you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>kind of tell it what to do and then it it does it um or maybe it like you reach certain points in the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>game and you&#8217;ve got a tool that will kind of like get you past the comeback<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>quickly or get you past some aspect of the game quickly so that then the humor will go on and do more of it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ah okay oh i see so interesting so specifically like there&#8217;s a point<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>where i would need to slow down and i could have an ai tool uh essentially help me pass that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>specific point like a battle potential yeah so in competitions they<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>might agree that hey let&#8217;s just skip all the uh the battle part and we&#8217;ll have the humans do the rest well<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and not necessarily that it&#8217;s more about like like where where is the skip right like if if we know that there are<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>tools that are out there and right and like using the tools can be a skill in itself right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>sure and this is where this is where it kind of comes back to what&#8217;s what&#8217;s the definition of cheating right okay is it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>cheating if everyone has access to the tool or is it cheating if we&#8217;re open about what the rules are for when you&#8217;re<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>allowed to use it or not right yeah interesting right so right so we can say look here&#8217;s a our competition allows you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>to use any of these ai tools as long as you&#8217;re sticking to the assign tools uh you know they&#8217;re just<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>fine you can use them if you end up sneaking in any of your own additional tools uh that&#8217;s a no no a lot<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of the time these tools are actually made by people in the community so maybe it&#8217;s okay if you&#8217;ve modified yet so you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>know a lot of times when we talk about cheating it says and you&#8217;re getting an unfair advantage and of course the big<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>question is well what does fair mean how does fair go in here and you might say look it&#8217;s as long as i did it it&#8217;s fair<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and as long as i programmed my own ai uh then that&#8217;s fair but as long as i<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>tell you about the fact that i&#8217;ve done it or as long as i tell you uh the fact that i&#8217;ve done it yeah that that itself<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>is interesting right so you can get an advantage but um you know uh just as if um let&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>say we&#8217;re doing a uh a car race uh a traditional car race uh in the real world and you&#8217;re like yeah my engineers<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>came up with this great uh you know with this great uh thing for my carburetor uh i&#8217;m not gonna pretend what<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>a carburetor does i just gotta throw that in there you know but that allows me to shave a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>few seconds off of off the lap uh i might say yeah uh you know our team came<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>up with this new ai right and then you&#8217;re using ai you&#8217;re being transparent about it so you&#8217;re not necessarily<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>cheating but if there are potential rules about what kind of ais you might use<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um and this is violating those rules then maybe maybe you would be cheating<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so where it gets really interesting is in things like ai competitions for<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>for players so so every year there&#8217;s a there&#8217;s actually a couple of different starcraft ai competitions<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and the idea is that you want uh the researchers who are entering the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>starcraft ai competition are trying to create an ai that can most competently play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>starcraft against other ais okay um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and they had to set rules in the competition of what&#8217;s allowed and not allowed in the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ai play of like what&#8217;s the what&#8217;s the level playing ground well because<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it&#8217;s it&#8217;s fair rebecca what what&#8217;s fairness right like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>what information is the ai allowed to have access to how often is it allowed to make commands right is it allowed to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>try to knock another ai out of the competition through non<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>non-ludic play right um like it has it has to you gotta give me<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>an example of that yeah i gotta get an example that just sounds fun yeah uh so in the early days of ai play<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>testing i remember this is like over a decade ago um i went to this conference and there was a paper that people were<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>presenting about their ai their ai play testing tool um and they were trying to you know have<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>have ai characters play the game to be able to identify where the bugs are in the game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and one of the the learning agents learned that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it could beat the game by forcing the game to crash under certain conditions<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that would count as a win against the against the player<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and so it learned how to like engage in activity that is outside of what you would typically do<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>as a player in the game in order to force the test to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>crash right like a ddos attack yeah and essentially it like found a bug in the in the game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>server code by like forcing too many actions all at once<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>wow wow that&#8217;s cool so yeah if the goal is that you&#8217;re writing an ai that can<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>participate in competitive starcraft play or competitive anything play it stands to reason that you would want the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ai to only be taking actions that count as playing the game yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>interesting i haven&#8217;t really thought a whole lot about the idea of cheating in ais playing each other i won an episode<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>just on that at some point and we might might get back to you on uh on that jillian<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>let&#8217;s go back to an an mmo right you got we got an mmo with both players and npcs<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um can you think of any potential reasons we might want to know uh we want to make sure that the players know who&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>a real person and who&#8217;s an ai yes real real real people have real feelings<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right uh and so you you want to know if you&#8217;re talking to a real life human being on the other end of things for<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like mitigating abuse reasons right um people will people will talk to or<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>interact with something that they know or suspect to be an ai differently from a human<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>or not right like maybe they treat them the same way and that&#8217;s horrifying but but for the most part yeah you&#8217;ll<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you&#8217;ll just you&#8217;ll interact differently with with someone who you know to be human versus and yeah i mean that seems<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like a very good thing to yeah to keep in mind right uh and presumably<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>i would assume it&#8217;s interesting because part of me is really uh interested in the possibility of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>really not knowing uh being in a world where it&#8217;s really not clear who the player control characters are and who<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the npcs are but if i get a level interaction with them that could have some sort of emotional repercussions<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like this it makes it makes sense that sounds stressful to me<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>to not know and like weirdly a little dystopian right like how how do you know if the person you&#8217;re talking to as a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>person i think it depends too if you&#8217;re talking to them right as opposed to going around just shooting people right then in that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>case it really doesn&#8217;t matter yeah maybe but the more you&#8217;re able to have interactions the more you&#8217;re<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>actually able to which is interesting this partly this means uh how much are we gonna enable the ai to be able to to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>talk with you like a person would and how much we&#8217;re even keeping the ability of players of talking to each other<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>directly versus uh you know uh choose responses from a menu or uh right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um because we&#8217;re already so worried about players uh being brutal to each other<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and being toxic to each other in the first place yeah it&#8217;s um yeah i guess it&#8217;s like the problem matters<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like predicated on the extent to which you&#8217;re you&#8217;re expected to behave as though you have a relationship<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>with the entity right so yeah right i mean to the extent that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>shooting someone is a relationship i guess like it&#8217;s not which is like a whole separate<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>conversation that i&#8217;m sure you can can have right uh we&#8217;re in a competitive relationship if we&#8217;re in a competitive shooter it&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>just not a very you know it&#8217;s not a very rich relationship it doesn&#8217;t have any emotional<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh well i mean as long as our ability to communicate with each other doesn&#8217;t get past that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right it doesn&#8217;t have any emotional context that goes kind of beyond that we don&#8217;t know anything else about each other and people will always find like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>one thing that&#8217;s always striking to me is people will always find ways to communicate with each other if they possibly can through games<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right and so you know if nothing else let&#8217;s say you&#8217;re in and this is like some imagined game right let&#8217;s say you&#8217;re in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>some imagined multiplayer shooting game where like the the whole thing is just open arena<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like run around shoot people uh they respawn after some amount of time into the arena again run around<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>shoot people again right there&#8217;s a number of games that are in this genre if you want to harass a player you camp<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>on where they are and you target them and them alone and you right like that&#8217;s a form of communication that comes<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>through even this like really non-verbal just shooting people way of doing things right like there&#8217;s a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>way to be able to interact with the human and so it matters whether whether the entity that you are camping<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>on and harassing is an ai or a human yeah because it seems there&#8217;s no point why would i waste my time harassing an<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ai so as the harasser i need to know that i&#8217;m harassing a real person sure<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that&#8217;s one way as the person picking harassed you also probably want to know right and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it would be different if it&#8217;s an ai that keeps killing you over and over and over again versus another character like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>another exactly yeah because there are real human relationships it&#8217;s not like you it&#8217;s not like you stop being human<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>beings when you go into a game even if you never talk to each other out of never interact with each other outside<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of the context of that game even if there&#8217;s no voice channel even if there&#8217;s no no nothing right like there&#8217;s no<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>identifier that makes it so that you would know who that person is outside of this game you&#8217;re still being a human<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>with other humans right i think it matters let&#8217;s let&#8217;s move on to um there&#8217;s a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>concern in almost every field about ai replacing human workers um and what their moral response to to this should<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>be um how do you think this applies to the game industry i mean we have game designers programmers artists producers<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>play testers etc um whose jobs will ai be able to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>competently perform in the near future do you think perform right perform versus change right so this like this is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the eternal conversation about ai automation right i feel pretty confident<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>with this every field within the game industry people who work in the industry are already interacting with ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>systems in some way in the course of doing their creative work<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>many of which a decade ago we would have said oh it&#8217;s going to replace the people right so<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>this is like the core concern of procedural content generation right if i&#8217;ve got an ai system that&#8217;s going to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>generate all these levels for me um will i still have a job right is there<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>still such a thing as a level designer when there&#8217;s procedural level generators it turns out the answer is yes because<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>there still needs to be human creativity in the process the job just looks a little different um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it&#8217;s not always the case that it&#8217;s like nai helping right um but but it just<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>changes the work that you&#8217;re doing or like um you know any artist who uses photoshop<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and uses like context aware editing tools right highlight this person delete them<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>from the scene fill in the background with something that&#8217;s an artist who&#8217;s interacting with ai in some capacity<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>where yeah like two decades ago they would have had to manually and painstakingly go through that process right and now<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>they work off of what the ai gives them and then like move on to the next task it&#8217;s just it changes the tasks that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>they do right it changes the work environment that they&#8217;re in right the creative though though it&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>interesting i want to see the creative choices still entirely in the artist&#8217;s hands but<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>more and more part of me is like well there&#8217;s all these little choices that you know we make along the way oh sure<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh you know that uh you know we pass on to ais you know a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>little bit at a time but we still live ourselves some creative choices that we might think are maybe the more<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>important creative choices more important or harder to do or outside the ability of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the tool that you&#8217;re using also it&#8217;s not like the ai is some<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>agency carrying entity right the creative choice is actually being made by the people who wrote the ai system<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that you&#8217;re using right sure in many ways the the the most<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>interesting ai ethics in creativity question to me right now<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um is how have the tools that we&#8217;ve got how are they shaping the kinds of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>experiences that people can make right the kinds of creative agency that they have<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>either in adding new possibilities or removing possibilities right like the medium is changing clearly i should have<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>started with that and that was fine i think i&#8217;m glad i didn&#8217;t have this is like my<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>core expertise so i&#8217;m glad we didn&#8217;t have to follow it with a bunch of things i know that&#8217;s about<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so yeah tell us what are the things that you think are uh really the the core concerns that we should have<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>about uh aifx or what you think are the most interesting uh aspects of it uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>happening right now or in the near future um uh a few things so so let&#8217;s look at things like how do you decide<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>what game gets to be made in the first place huh okay certainly and so the industry is is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>enormous and diverse right and there are always going to be studios who sort of ignore market trends<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ignore market forces right or kind of like do their own thing and have breakaway successes in unexpected spaces<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right but increasingly things like analytics on the app store are going to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>drive creative design decisions right right what like we&#8217;re watching a bunch<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of players play um like we&#8217;re running some kind of analysis on what players are currently doing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and using that to decide what makes the most sense to implement moving forward in changing the game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right what are the games that are already in the marketplace and can we analyze like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the different factors that go into making those games and use that to decide what gets made next<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um you know it&#8217;s interesting because for for for me the i i i this this brings up two things uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>number one it brings up the idea that uh the focus then might be on<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you know uh what ends up automatic what ends up getting players to spend more money um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you know rather than you know what uh would make for a good game because uh yeah it&#8217;s much easier to track<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and get data and correlate essentially you know game functionality to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you know spending versus to enjoyment because you know it&#8217;s how you attract enjoyment and the other is the uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh remember the uh that job algorithm that facebook had yeah that turned out to be sexist yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>amazon has also had these amazons also have these like built-in bias to the ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>system so that so that&#8217;s happening all over the place right and not just in games by any means but certainly in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>games as well underlying bias in the ai system that&#8217;s leading to different kinds of experiences and and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>really like any game that you make that that incorporates ai in some way as a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>as a player experiences it the player is going to be experiencing the biases of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the person who created the algorithm right in in play all right so<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>in procedural content generation we&#8217;ll talk about things like um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>what who gets represented and who doesn&#8217;t in in ai sim society type games<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right um mike cook who is a wonderful ai researcher and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>game designer um just has a couple of simple examples<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right of like let&#8217;s say you&#8217;ve got a tombstone generator for for a game and you&#8217;re like i need like an entire<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>graveyard and the graveyard needs to have tombstones in it and those tombstones need to have text on them and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like i don&#8217;t have a writing team to be able to write all of the text for all of the tombstones so i&#8217;m going to write a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>little generator that just generates all of the things right whose names<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>are in the generator right right what what data set do you work off of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>for that how do you decide uh what a spouse is on the tombstone<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>generator right like do you represent same-sex marriage do you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right like there&#8217;s so much interpretation that goes into these<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>these little generative systems right the that the designer of the system<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>bakes in either intentionally or unintentionally right that&#8217;s a big deal uh yeah that&#8217;s that that&#8217;s interesting<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and and that seems like such a i want to say almost benign uh kind of example but<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it&#8217;s a very clear example can can you think of how this might apply can you give me a how this might happen written<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>larger i guess or you know in a kind of uh you know larger you know the little<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>names on the tombstone is really easy to understand it&#8217;s a really good example but okay what could be like you know a bigger<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>problematic let&#8217;s say also in many ways simcity is a really big policy modeling game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right okay um well so and and this is what so some of this is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>going to get back to like what&#8217;s your definition of ai right well because some people will move some people would say<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it&#8217;s not ai it&#8217;s it&#8217;s design right but typically like anything that involves<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like complex simulation and modeling that has emergent effects i would say is is part of ai certainly part of game ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so look at what kinds of policies you&#8217;re allowed to create in a game like simcity<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um what are the assumptions about what a city is that&#8217;s baked into the design of simcity<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right it has to have roads it has to have right it has to like exist in this<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>capitalist model right um it doesn&#8217;t let a player explore<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>a simulation that&#8217;s outside of the bounds of what the design team decided<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>counts and then that informs some larger conversation within a community around<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like oh look at look at simcity right like as a colloquial example of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of like how i learned about city management right and then it&#8217;s like this this<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>model that is not inclusive of all potential cities that we already know about in the world okay interesting so<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>essentially we have our uh our design team our design team essentially brings their assumptions of what something is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like uh they fit they feed a data set into something that crea into an an ai that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>creates um whatever city you will have in uh in sim city is is is is that the idea or<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>because that&#8217;s it&#8217;s it&#8217;s been a while since i played sim city yeah so simcity is more manually authored than that and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so this is also like these days i guess when we talk about ai a lot of the time we&#8217;re talking about<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>machine learning but ai and machine learning are not synonymous right machine learning is a tool or approach<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>within ai right so simcity is not like this um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it&#8217;s not like learning a city from prior data right it&#8217;s a designer&#8217;s sort of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>very explicit uh authored model of of a city right with all of the different<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>components and what they do to different parts of the system for a long time games really shied away from machine learning because it doesn&#8217;t<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>give you as much authorial control oh that was the that was the argument right like they needed<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>game designers wanted to be able to have like tightly crafted experiences and so they needed ai systems to be<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like handwritten and testable in a way that the machine learning approaches don&#8217;t don&#8217;t always permit let&#8217;s go back<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>to the previous question which was uh again tell me what sort of things uh interest you what sort of things are you worried about<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>or concerned about yeah i don&#8217;t know concern worry it doesn&#8217;t need to be like there&#8217;s some sort of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>tragedy about to happen but yeah uh sure so a few of the that are gonna sound a little tangential to games but i<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>promise they circle back um okay so there&#8217;s all of this work in like ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>generated art these days right so um disco diffusion is is one of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the uh like pieces of software that people are using a lot but it&#8217;s all and i should not minimize it like they are<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>meaningfully different in many ways but the essential idea is like ai system trains on a bunch of images<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you give ai system prompt it generates new art right like new image based on<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>prompts that you have given it right um and people are already seeing things like baked in aesthetic biases right and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um you know you you put in words the the acute is as very masculine in our<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>society and you&#8217;ll get these like gritty masculine reading things back right um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>we don&#8217;t have a good language yet to be able to describe the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>authorship and responsibility for ai created content and people will argue about it really<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>people people will fight about it like the ai made it therefore<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>i don&#8217;t need to be held accountable for the offensive thing that it made right or<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um oh that&#8217;s interesting yeah which certainly is something that can come back into into games right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right oh definitely and actually did so so with<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>some of the earlier procedural generation work which part of me can&#8217;t believe is earlier right so look at spore for example<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>they have these procedurally generated worlds the qa team ended up needing to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>make a list of what the acceptable random seeds were for generating worlds<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so that the game will only generate worlds that the qa team deemed to be<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>acceptable before shipping what uh acceptable in terms of playability or in terms of uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>offensive offensiveness of some kind in terms of playability uh i&#8217;m told also a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>little bit in terms of like is the shapes of all of the continents uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>appropriate or could it be interpreted as [Laughter]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um [Music] on some level it doesn&#8217;t quite matter what what is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>meant by acceptability right it is the sense that like does a human need to be the arbiter of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like the final arbiter of what goes out into the world like does does the human<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>a human on the design team need to be the arbiter of what is acceptable how do you allocate credit<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>if you&#8217;re using so let&#8217;s say you like take one of these ai art ai art tools<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>use it to generate a bunch of like art right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh slap that up as paintings in some virtual gallery that you then ship as<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>part of a game right right and let&#8217;s even take away corporate america from it like let&#8217;s assume that it&#8217;s some little<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>indie studio that&#8217;s doing this right right still corporate in some sense but not answerable to like the lawyers of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>blizzard or ea or whatever okay um is it okay to do that right is it okay to generate art using one of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>these tools claim it as yours put it into a piece of software that you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>then ship uh yeah it&#8217;s interesting because uh this is this is part of what you said<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>earlier where uh if the ai does something wrong you can say well look it was the ai but<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that means uh how can you take credit for the benefits you get from the ai and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the money that the that you&#8217;re getting from the ai but refused responsibility for any of the negative consequences<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>from the ai and in this case right it seems that uh i mean you&#8217;re selling it it&#8217;s you know you&#8217;re making money from<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it it seems that you would be respon but it seems to be different if you&#8217;ve<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>if you&#8217;ve essentially procedurally generated it and then it&#8217;s kind of a set thing as opposed to let&#8217;s say every time<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you run the game it gives you a different configuration why is that different well because you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>have control over the final product you&#8217;re shipping so if you did it once where you can essentially your qa team<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>can look over the product but if you&#8217;re doing it every time there&#8217;s no way you can control what&#8217;s happening there right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so it seems that uh you know the in the first um in the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>first case uh the ai is a tool for creating the product but then the product is kind of fully yours<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>where in the second version the ai is creating the product anew<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>every time in some way yeah and that that seems to me to to to make so at<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>least some sort of difference with responsibility because when it comes to responsibility we essentially you know<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>our common excuses are i didn&#8217;t know uh and i couldn&#8217;t control it right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and you know with uh the first product if it&#8217;s just an art gallery and i&#8217;m thinking of something like uh instead of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>a regular art gallery i&#8217;m thinking of something like in um bioshock 3<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>where you have like the racist museum let&#8217;s say and let&#8217;s say you let the ai like generate some stuff for the racist<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>museum right um if you had it generated once and then you saw it at this point you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>know right you&#8217;re you&#8217;re in control of it if essentially any anytime everyone uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>played bioshock 3 they would get a different uh racist gallery<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>created by an ai the producers of the game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>they couldn&#8217;t know what was going to be shown and they would have no control over what is shown<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>well so but they know that they will have no control right and they know<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that someone does have<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>control over the space of things that can be created right right right and<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that and so and when we talk about procedural generation or generative design<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>really what a designer is doing when they create one of these systems is that they&#8217;re creating a space of potential<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>things right right and and it&#8217;s sort of the responsibility of the person doing that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>to understand the space of potential things that they&#8217;re creating so that they feel decently confident<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that some enormous corner of that space isn&#8217;t going to be horribly racist right unless it&#8217;s intentional but in that case<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>it needs to be racist in the way that you intend it to be for exactly effect of the like the social commentary of the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>game and that isn&#8217;t that is a really difficult line even for humans to follow with one oh definitely like no one would<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>be stupid enough to let an ai actually generate an argument and yet you would be surprised<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right because like i think that like that&#8217;s one of the one of the tricky things about this<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right like there&#8217;s some level of of sort of promise and hope for what procedural generation will be able to bring like a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>different experience every time like maybe it&#8217;s it&#8217;s interesting that it&#8217;s procedural maybe it&#8217;s part of the game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>that it&#8217;s procedural where you know you you go you go once and and you see one thing but like another person who&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>playing sees a different thing and that&#8217;s important because then the players get to have a conversation about<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>how they saw different things i don&#8217;t know whatever it is right like that can be a really important and an<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>intentional piece of design if you need that as a design element in the game for<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the kind of experience that you want to be able to create you also need to be able to accept<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the responsibility for what happens when that procedural system goes wrong right because you have<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>given it to someone to use and play with like you have put your name behind it and said yes this is like this is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>something that i stand behind as appropriate and so you need to be pretty confident that it&#8217;s going to be appropriate<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right yeah yeah yeah and it&#8217;s really interesting how uh and again i&#8217;m thinking about the kind of<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh the sexist job uh things on facebook how you know<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>you know i definitely think those programmers are responsible for uh for the outcome<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>though there&#8217;s a question with that one of whether you know they should have known whether that was negligent or not and i think<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the question of kind of you know negligence and recklessness uh right is is one of those things where<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>knowing what the potential space of the outcome is seems really really<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>important uh and something that uh programmers would need to give thought to right and so i guess<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>i my argument would be a sufficiently large portion of the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>population could have easily predicted that as the outcome right like i expect<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>i fully expect that if you take an ai system and you train it on<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>something that we know to be biased it will replicate the and amplify those<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>biases right it&#8217;s like it is simply the nature of machine learning to do that like literally that is its strength<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right it identifies patterns that we know about and it identifies patterns that we don&#8217;t know about<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and drives all decisions made in the system based off of those patterns like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>literally it is what machine learning does right let me ask you based on this<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh would you say that uh social media companies like facebook and twitter<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>were negligent or reckless in uh essentially the impact they the divisive<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>impact they had uh on the world given uh what those algorithms were that they should have known from the very<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>beginning they should have known they should have had an audit process to be able to look for it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>even if they didn&#8217;t know right even if you&#8217;re like oh they had this like idea in mind right they should have known<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>what they were doing there&#8217;s a real people um the like the technical<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the technical approach is known to have these kinds of of emergent effects right even if they<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>didn&#8217;t have even if they didn&#8217;t have teams of people whose job it is to study how people behave on social media which<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>they do right in their research arms even if they didn&#8217;t have those people i<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>would argue that they should have had those people because it is part of their job right to facilitate human<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>communication so they better be working with people who understand human communication right like yes at every<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>step of the way i think those i think social media platforms are responsible for the impact on society that the the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>very design of the platform is like intended to create and but by the very<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>desired platform we&#8217;re talking about the use of ais in particular to kind of do this sure any kind of recommendation<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>system yeah right do you see anything like that uh in the game sphere that would be<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>remotely comparable i mean there&#8217;s kind of community management type stuff right for multiplayer games and there are some<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um you know how do you design a platform to write how do you how do you moderate a<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>platform how do you control for hate speech on your platform um there were for a while i&#8217;m actually i&#8217;m<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>not as sure about the current state of things but like some ai uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>like ai tools that are used to kind of like monitor and detect toxic behavior in online community spaces<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um that&#8217;s definitely an analog yeah it&#8217;s interesting how you know the ai tools<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>being being used to identify versus changing the game or something in response to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>identifying those patterns which is what social media does right right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>yeah like you know a really interesting thing and i don&#8217;t know if anyone&#8217;s doing it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>but now i kind of want to like after this call find out if someone&#8217;s doing it um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>is so that there&#8217;s this idea in um in cyber security<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>of like detecting bad actors and then like intentionally honeypotting<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>them right like um and so this is actually and i&#8217;m not a cyber security researcher<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so my knowledge like i may be explaining this wrong um but the idea behind uh<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>platforms like cloudflare right which now everyone like routes their internet traffic through cloudflare um for for<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>security purposes right they initially set up some system of like what if we could detect<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>the bad actors and like route them this way right okay and then let everyone<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>else go down the main like the main path but like we&#8217;re gonna find the people who are misbehaving<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>and redirect them so they think they&#8217;re still going down the right path but actually we&#8217;re like honey potting<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>them into this like cat like labyrinth essentially that they&#8217;ll get kind of trapped in<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>huh so this is a kind of virtual entrapment yeah virtual entrapment but like for good<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah i mean yes virtual entrapment um<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>yeah i wonder if this if people are doing things like that for for social media or for like online<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>online game playing right if you can detect that someone is being a tremendous [&nbsp;__&nbsp;] in your game<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>all right can you find it and then just have them play ai players<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so that they still get to be that right but like not to other human beings<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>this takes us back to the earlier point of identifying or you know whether the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>person is a player ai maybe sometimes we don&#8217;t want to identify it because<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>yeah that&#8217;s that&#8217;s that&#8217;s a great way so people can those people who want to grief can essentially<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>still grieve or still feel like they&#8217;re griefing but they&#8217;re griefing against ai right and no one&#8217;s getting like no one&#8217;s<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>getting hurt i mean except to the extent that you&#8217;re permitting the the anti-social behavior right which is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>longer-term harm done um but but maybe actually maybe relatively less than<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>because people no one&#8217;s getting no one&#8217;s getting hurt by it it&#8217;s interesting this is definitely manipulative oh it&#8217;s totally<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right manipulative for the power of good right we can use ai&#8217;s for that no you know i mean manipulation is one of those<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>things that we often talk about is bad but you know i&#8217;m a parent i mean i manipulate my child like every other<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>parent yeah let&#8217;s look at let&#8217;s look at behavior charts like i have a number of those spread across the house of my kids<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh yeah right yeah um jillian i i think we&#8217;re i think we&#8217;re about done uh so let<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>let me ask you this what final words do you want to live uh our listeners with when it comes to ai ethics and games i<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>say that someone is always accountable right you don&#8217;t get to hide like any i<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>would say anytime anyone hears someone say something that seems like it&#8217;s shifting<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>blame onto an ai system don&#8217;t believe them okay so like someone someone made that thing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>right for good or for bad right it doesn&#8217;t get to be the ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>uh the ai&#8217;s fault or or virtue right it&#8217;s it&#8217;s always a human behind it like<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>ai systems aren&#8217;t they&#8217;re not magic that a bunch of numbers people can learn how to make them it&#8217;s it&#8217;s not that hard<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>um yeah it there&#8217;s a there&#8217;s always a human wherever there&#8217;s an ai<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>so look for the human all right keep looking for those humans jillian smith thank you so much for<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>coming on our show uh good podcast gp all right play nice<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>everybody you can subscribe and listen to all of our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>[Release Date: June 21, 2022]&nbsp;&nbsp;It\u2019s hard to imagine games without AI, but having AI in games also raises a host of ethical questions involving 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